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RIPE 47 EIX WG minutes - Wednesday, 28 January 2004 - first draft


Chaired by: Fearghas Mckay fm@st-kilda.org, WG Chair
Location: St. Johns II
Attendees: ~ 110


1st session: 14:00 - 16:00
==========================

Scribe: Carsten Schiefner carsten@ripe.net

A. Administrative stuff

- John Marks volunteered for Jabber/IRC scribing

- agenda approved as proposed:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/agendas/eix.html
with one addition: LoNAP's presentation after LINX' one

B. IXP presentations

- AMS-IX, .nl - by Cara Mascini:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-amsix.pdf
* organisational update: three new employees, marketing added as
a new discipline
* recently launched partner program launched and some first PR
efforts are first visible signs of these efforts
* explanations of the partner program
* statistics of last four months
* sharp increase in traffic patterns triggered by the recent
increases of DSL speeds by the Dutch ISPs
* service developments: 10 Mbit prices decreased; new GigE
interfaces added; launch of 10 GigE soon, first customer expected
in February
* new topology, migration is on its way. Detailed update later the
week on Friday
* there were no questions from the audience

- DE-CIX, .de - by Arnold Nipper:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-decix.pdf
* legal and administrative update: new spokesmen since September
2004
* DE-CIX General Meeting decided to move DE-CIX from an eco e.V.
initiative (eco is the German ISPA) to an own legal body, DE-CIX
GmbH
* DE-CIX GmbH will be fully owned by eco e.V., eco's CEO Harald
Summa is to become this company's CEO, too, with a board of three
additional people
* new pricing structure under discussion
* jump to statistics (technical update postponed): members
increased by about 20%, traffic almost doubled
? Multicast & IPv6?
! One new Multicast customer during last 12 months, three or four
new IPv6 customers since last meeting, now ~ 20 cutomers in total
* explanation of k-root instance deployment in Frankfurt
* there were no further questions from the audience

- LINX, .uk - by Mike Hughes:
[presentation not yet available]
* status update: average traffic patterns of 35 Gigs, 140 members
(pretty stable), GigE ports increasing, 100 Mbit ports decreasing
* managed Private Interconnect services at various locations
* technical news: upgrade of Extreme platform done, first
experiences with EAPS operations
* demand for a 10 GigE native platform increasing although members
not totally ready for it. Should be fully integrated with
existing platform
* "LINX from anywhere" initiative as a marketing tool to also
connect remote ISPs
* there were no questions from the audience

- N-IX, .de - by Kurt Kayser:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-nix.pdf
* status and costs update
* performance and traffic patterns
* current projects:
+ anycasting e-, l- and m-root being geographically most distant,
but only to N-IX peers: first positive effects seen
? With the consent of the respective operators?
! Tried to contact them, but now answers. This is purely optional
for the N-IX peers so far as an experiment: no leakage into the
global routing table. Negotiations with operators are ongoing.
? Why at all? Because service is designed to get answers from the
first one answering that are likely to be the closer ones.
! It's good to have also the most distant ones closer to N-IX in
order to accelerate access to them.
! No, the system (DNS) sorts that out. Hardly any improvements to
be expected.
+ VoIP platform being deployed for voice and IP carriers to push
the idea, also in combination with ENUM
+ association DVAP e.V. formed as an exchange platform for
exchange point operators
+ clustering idling hardware in the exchange point's vincinity
currently in the documentation phase
* there were no questions from the audience

- NaMeX, .it - by Daniele Arena:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-namex.pdf
* membership and traffic figures
* FE and GigE offered via fibre and copper on redundant switch
structure
* moved to new premesises recently, eight carriers present
* running an f-root instance
* offering IPv6 and Multicast
* joined the test phase of the Italian Public Administration
Network
* there were no questions from the audience

- NDIX, .nl/.de - by Remco van Mook:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-ndix.pdf
* German part officially started in November 03, too
* remarkable growth in the non-ISP sector
* usergroup VLAN a success
* German site in Muenster about to be fully deployed, supposed to
be operational mid February
* there were no questions from the audience

- Netnod, .se - by Kurt Erik Lindqvist:
* http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-netnod.pdf
* facts about Netnod
* city of Lulea, north of Sweden, planned for GigE; built in
cooperation with the city that will provide some funds for the
deployment
* FDDI eventually switched off totally
* private VLAN to be offered
* upgrade to 10 GigE in Stockholm and to GigE in Sundsvall
* general T&C under review
* phasing out DPT 2.5G
* TPTEST, a performance test for Swedish customers, is updated
* update on financials
* services rendered at Netnod sites, distribution of connections
used, traffic figures and patterns
* update on i-root anycast status
? What about the VoIP project?
! When one connects to Netnod, one gets a Cisco VoIP phone to
connect to INOC DBA for free.
? How to get it?
! Go to Netnod's website and fill out the form available there.
* there were no further questions from the audience

- NIX, .cz - by Josef Chomyn:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-nixcz.pdf
* NIX is the only IXP in Prague, founded as an association
* 48 members or customers, respectively. Members must be local
entities and have voting rights
* new fee structure as of January 04
* traffic figures
* 6 members doing IPv6 on the peering VLAN
* traffic analyser is techically ready, legal implications still
under analysis
* there were no questions from the audience

- VIX, .at - by Christian Panigl:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-vix.pdf
* history and status: not many changes
* since 2001 on a GigE Diamond platform, some problems recently
that got solved rather quickly
* number of members and traffic patters per member and port over
the years
* first site still with the university of Vienna, second site
opened 2.5 years ago with InterXion for purposes of redundancy
an colo
* main VIX characteristics
* dedicated VLAN for IPv6 tests with free non-GigE ports until
2004, about twelve members participating
* RIPE RIS server on both, the IPv4 and IPv6 VLAN
* INOC DBA still being further developed but with low priority
due to other, more important activities
* peers must be "genuine" ISPs - this might come under review soon
* charging structure
* plans including the upgrade of the Diamonds to MSM 3 and a bigger
trunk between the sites
* there were no questions from the audience

- Xchangepoint, .uk - by Keith Mitchell:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-wg-update.pdf
* new sites, Frankfurt and Amsterdam, underway and expected to be
ready end Q2 04
* significant traffic growth in London, 10 GigE ordered
* 140 customers in London, peering interconnect with LoNAP popular
* breakdown on the status of the so far four locations
* connections still only WITHIN, not between, each metro area
* details on Frankfurt deployment
* traffic patterns in London, upgrade to 10 GigE
* switch malconfiguration causing problems, an idea is contain it
on a per-VLAN basis - feedback sought
* direct connection to k-root instance and AS
* LoNAP interconnect facts and figures
? Shared IPv6 VLAN with LoNAP ever to happen?
! No address space assigned yet, no aother issues.
* there were no further questions from the audience

- PacketExchange, .uk - by Kier O'Brien:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-packetxchange.pdf
* PacketExchange is a distributed peering point, balanced between
content and ISPs
* Juniper based MPLS backbone with Ethernet at the edges, service
looks like an Ethernet port
* some stability problems recently, testing of new vendors'
hardware to be finished soon
* update on locations
* about 367 members, including some high volume US peers
* member growth statistics
* geographical distribution by city and route, a 10% unit reflects
about 3.5 Gig in traffic
? IPv6?
! No Layer 3 service, strictly point-to-point VLAN services.
* there were no further questions from the audience

- LoNAP, .uk - by James Rice:
[presentation not yet available]
* LoNAP facts: London based IXP, since 1998, 39 members
* recent news: some hardware investments, now ready for 10 Mbit
to 10 GigE
* memberships fees remain unchanged, still 2,000 GBP per year
for one FE and GigE port
* joining fee reduced to 500 from origianlly 1,500 GBP including
cabling
* traffic patters, has more than doubled during last 12 months -
now up to 160 MB daily average from about 70 Megs a year ago
* there were no questions from the audience

- Euro-IX - by Serge Radovcic:
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-eix-euroix.pdf
* facts and aims of Euro-IX
* membership figures and developments
* update on the Euro-IX database for IXP customers
* enhancements to the "members only" pages
* Kurt Erik Lindqvist (Netnod) succeeded Christian Panigl (VIX) as
chairman
* 4th Euro-IX Forum to be held in Berlin on 19 and 20 April 2004,
hosted by DE-CIX/eco
* 6th Euro-IX General Meeting will be held in conjunction with the
Forum
* there were no questions from the audience

- meeting adjourned for coffee break


2nd session: 16:30 - 18:00
==========================

Scribe: Lorenzo Colitti lorenzo@ripe.net

A. Administrative Matters:

Participants list circulated

B. IXP operator wishlist for switches

Mike Hughes:
- The purpose of the list is to get together with other IXP operators to speak
to switch manufacturers with a single voice. Exchanges are small but high
visibility customers. The document has not been revised for a while. The
questions are:
- Shall we leave implemented items in the list?
- Is there new stuff that is required?

Keith Mitchell:
- Please revise this. We have our own documents, but a common list would be
useful.
- We should put already implemented items in appendix saying which vendors
implement them and which do not.

Mike Hughes:
- This could be done with a matrix of features vs. vendors.

Arien Vijn:
- The document should contain info on scalability of some of these features.
We don't want important features on the slow path.

Mike Hughes:
- Yes, good idea. Keith will give us his requirements document.
Maybe AMS-IX could share the results of their recent vendor survey.

Arien Vijn:
- A feature vs. vendor matrix might sound simple, but hard-to-access features
(e.g disable acting on BPDUs) should be documented so other members know how
it's done.

Mike Hughes:
- This could be done by adding a note in the matrix.

Arien Vijn
- Members might also contribute notes on how to enable certain features on
specific hardware.

Mike Hughes:
- We should set up an editorial group for this document. As current editor,
I will do this (including a mailing list). We should also include Euro-IX
"vendor pressure" people in it.


C. Customer-IXP panels

Fearghas McKay:
- We are looking at doing customer-member charters and see how people can
build a set of commmon bullet points that IXPs and ISPs have in their
relationship with each other. Is anyone interested in contributing to that
work?

- Question to the floor: Are there any ISP's here?
Show of hands: Only 3.
Any views?

(?)
- Are we talking of SLAs for EIXs?

Fearghis McKay:
- Not really, more along the lines of service descriptions. "IXPs do this,
but not this"

Simon Leinen:
- In the interests of transparency and competition it would be convenient to
go to an IX and say "the others have this, do you have it too?" but a
formal approach doesn't seem necessary.

Jon Lawrence:
- The information exists, all you need to do is look at EIX web sites to find
it.

Fearghas McKay:
- A lot of this can be already be done by looking at the Euro-IX pages.

Christian Panigl:
- I would like to hear from the ISP community. Is there anything useful for
your business? What do you as an ISP see as an essential (new) service that
should be deployed by many IXPs? Euro-IX is a closed forum so the ISPs can't
participate saying what they want. Small IXPs don't know which services
deployed by big ones are essential for ISPs and which are not.

Keith Mitchell
- The EIX WG meetings are an ideal forum for this. We could invite ISPs to
future EIX meetings so they can present what they would like from IX
operators.

Kurtis Lindqvist:
- We did invite 2 ISPs to the Euro-IX meeting in Lisbon. But does it make
sense to have a list of ISPs presenting the same needs? Better a list of
common questions from ISPs that we can discuss.

Fearghas McKay:
- Is anyone interested in writing a list of questions?

Keith Mitchell:
- We can set up a list of questions, but it's the questions we haven't thought
of that are interesting.

Fearghas McKay:
- We can start with a list of questions and take it from there at the next EIX
meeting.


D. Migration experiences

1. Arnold Nipper: DE-CIX update

a) Switch upgrade

- We stayed with Cisco products because we have experience with them
- During the upgrade one of the old switches crashed due to human error
- Lesson: Don't do anything during business hours, even if you've done it 100
times before.
- We still have minor problems with 10-100-1000 copper cards on 6548
switches: occasional BGP resets and a stuck port

Alexander Koch:
- This is not a minor problem, this is serious!

b) Moving to new site

- Site selection criteria were carrier reachability, financial stability,
prices, support.
- Chose Telecity
- Link between old and new facility not resilient yet
- This was much easier than replacing hardware.

Karsten Koepp:
- How many members in new facility?

Arnold Nipper:
- No connections yet (facility has been operational for 3-4 weeks). We have
to do some promotion.

Z. AOB

- There was no OB.

Meeting closed ~17:15.