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Wednesday, 22 May 2019, 16:00 - 17:45
Co-Chairs: Kurtis Lindqvist, Bijal Sanghani
Scribe: Edward Shryane
Status: Approved

A. Administrative Matters - Kurtis Lindqvist

The presentation is available at:

Kurtis welcomed everyone to the working group session, and reminded everyone to register for the GM.

Kurtis made one addition to the agenda for Ruediger Volk (Deutsche Telekom) to talk about NRO data.

Kurtis asked for comments on the minutes from RIPE 77. There were no comments and the minutes were declared approved.

Kurtis mentioned that he was standing for the RIPE NCC Board, and if elected, he would stand down from the NCC Services Working Group Chair. For that reason, a search was begun for a third co-chair, and Rob Evans was nominated. Kurtis asked for comments, and for support or not for the nomination. Otherwise, at the end of the discussion phase on the following Friday, Bijal would declare consensus on the matter.

B. RIPE NCC Update - Axel Pawlik, RIPE NCC

The presentation is available at:

There were no questions.

C. Operational Update - Felipe Victolla Silveira, RIPE NCC

The presentation is available at:

Alexander Isavnin (Internet Protection Society) asked about the procedure for closing a member. Kurtis asked to hold the question until Athina presented on it.

Alexander asked a follow-up question to confirm that all information provided by the RIPE NCC to its members was not misleading. Felipe replied that the RIPE NCC could not do that.

Marco (RIPE NCC) asked a question on behalf of Elvis Velea (V4Escrow LLC), what are the steps that the RIPE NCC is taking to avoid the creation of stale data in the RIPE databases and, to ensure compliance with GDPR specifically when a new LIR is created.

Felipe confirmed that the RIPE NCC is GDPR compliant, and pointed out there would be a discussion on GDPR and person objects during the database working group session.

Elvis also asked why the RIPE NCC was creating objects using the override mechanism, Felipe replied that he would follow-up with Elvis. Kurtis suggested discussing on the Services WG mailing list.

Ruediger Volk suggested that questions from remote participants should appear on the displays during the session. Felipe replied that one question at a time would be easier.

Ruediger asked whether the new ticketing system provided a good framework for reporting operational failures, software bugs and so on. Felipe replied that he didn’t consider the ticketing system to be a good fit for software bugs, that different tooling is needed, that is public so that issues can be tracked.

Bogdanov Iurii (IP4Market) stated that Russian LIRs are uncomfortable with the closure of members, and that if mistakes happen with sponsored resources, they should be corrected. Felipe replied that members are not closed due to a simple mistake, and there is a difference between making a mistake and submitting falsified information. Kurtis asked to hold further discussion until after Athina’s presentation.

Marco clarified a question from Elvis, why are person objects and not role objects created in the RIPE database for LIRs. Felipe asked to discuss in the Database working group session.

Michele Neylon (Blacknight) is glad the RIPE NCC is doing work on fraud prevention, and pointed out the system is based on trust. He also applauded the pragmatic approach on the helpdesk ticketing system.

Dmitry Kohmanyuk (Hostmaster) pointed out that in cases of fraud, it may not be the LIR that broke the law and provided falsified information, but the end customer. Felipe replied that Athina planned to address this point in her presentation.

Marco asked a question on behalf of Mark Vee, regarding the transfer of resources during a merger, he asked to change the procedure to allow a transfer after the resource is out of the 2 year hold, and the yearly membership fee has been paid? Felipe replied that he will take that into account.

D. Due Diligence at the RIPE NCC - Athina Fragkouli, RIPE NCC

The presentation is available at:

Alexander asked of the members closed for providing misleading information, how many provided misleading information about themselves, and how many misleading information provided by third parties? Athina replied that she didn’t have those numbers right then.

Alexander pointed out that members were closed for providing misleading information on two occasions, but there was no comment from the RIPE NCC on that. Athina replied there is a confidentiality clause for cases in arbitration. The arbiters ruling in both cases is available online, and in the ruling the RIPE NCC reminded the member multiple times of their obligations.

Hans Petter Holen pointed out that providing statistics on just two cases would reveal (non-public) information about those cases.

Kurtis reminded Alexander that the discussion is about the RIPE NCC’s processes and the services they provide, and that the arbitration upheld the RIPE NCC’s decision in both cases.

Bogdanov Iurii pointed out that members perform checks of third-party information, and he feels they are doing the job of the RIPE NCC. Athina replied that the contract is between the member and the sponsored third party, and the member should know who they are, and that any forwarded documents must be true and correct.

Bogdanov also asked for some examples of when the RIPE NCC must comply with sanctions. Athina replied there are two types of sanctions. Firstly, companies are restricted from providing certain services, which does not apply to the RIPE NCC. Secondly, certain members were listed in the sanctions, and those sanctions were complied with.

Marco asked on behalf of Sascha Luck, under which authority is the RIPE NCC constituted, and Athina replied, the authority of the RIPE community.

Sergey Myasoedov (NetArt Group) asked whether EU sanctions cover the RIPE NCC’s services, and Athina replied that they do not.

Marco stated on behalf of Elvis, that the RIPE NCC should provide more statistics on the number of fraud attempts reported to LEAs, arbitrations and the reasons why members were closed. Also on behalf of Elvis, asked whether the RIPE NCC will close an LIR for providing information from an end-user which later is proven to be falsified? Athina replied that it’s difficult to talk about imaginary scenarios, and that each case is evaluated on its own merits. In reply to Kurtis, Athina also mentioned there were cases where the LIR realised that they submitted falsified information, and they informed the RIPE NCC.

Bogdanov Iurii asked about the document change from multiple violations to a single violation. Athina replied that the procedure had a mistake, which was fixed, but the service agreement was always like that.

Marco asked a question on behalf of Yvonne from OSnet, whether the RIPE NCC has considered moving the arbitration procedure to a respected international organisation? Athina confirmed that was considered, and the procedure is regularly reviewed. If the RIPE NCC sees the need with the arbiters of changing this, a proposal will be brought to the GM.

An audience speaker asked how to update end user information. Athina replied there is a procedure for that, and she can point her to it.

E. RIPE NCC Survey 2019 - Fergal Cunningham, RIPE NCC

The presentation is available at:

Peter Koch (DENIC) requested that all survey questions be made available in advance, Fergal replied that it’s possible to go back to previous questions and change the answer if you prefer.

An audience speaker asked which iPad version was given away, and Fergal replied it’s gray, wi-fi only and had 128 GB of memory. They also asked if replies are translated to English, Fergal replied they would like to do, if there was time before the next RIPE meeting. In reply to a suggestion that they request translators to do it, Fergal replied that they will figure out what they need to do.

Ruediger Volk requested to collect survey answers, but Fergal confirmed that downloading answers was not possible.

Lars Liman requested that questions don’t mention expectations, and Fergal was pretty sure no questions asked for that.

F. 10 years of 2007-01 Implementation From a Member's Perspective - Sergey Myasoedov, NetArt Group

The presentation is available at:

Bogdanov Iurii asked Sergey whether the RIPE NCC should change its checks for sponsored resources. Sergey didn’t think they should stop checking, but that the consequences should be different. Bogdanov said that there are situations where a member can’t be sure of their customers, and this is a risk for all LIRs.

Nick Hilliard pointed out that Sergey should be careful in adding a term like “deliberate” as it puts the onus on the RIPE NCC to ascribe the intent, and proving intent is very difficult. Sergey asked in reply whether it’s more important for members to be convinced that the RIPE NCC is doing the right thing, or that the by-laws are left as they are. Sergey pointed out there have been 19 arbitration rulings, with none in favour of the member. Nick pointed out that the details are not public, and it’s not possible to assess whether the cases are reasonable, and if the closed organisation has an issue with the decision then they should consider taking legal action.

Lars Liman pointed out that if you are doing business in a country, with an obligation to provide correct information in that country’s language, you are responsible to know what’s going on there. Secondly, that members of the RIPE NCC are not their customers, but groups of people that are working together, in a club with the rules of membership, and the arbitration is about that. Also that if the RIPE NCC sees a pattern, the member must shape up and look at their procedures.

Kurtis pointed out that the number of occurrences is an inference, and not a basis for discussion.

Randy Bush wanted to know, what can we do to get more accurate data? How do you make it easier for the sponsoring LIR to give the RIPE NCC more accurate data?

Gaith Taha asked for a range of softer sanctions against members, so action can be taken immediately.

An audience speaker suggested that closing a member will kill their business, and that it’s a bad practice that a member which unknowingly submits fraudulent data is treated the same as a member which willingly does it.

Sascha Luck replied to Nick, that fraud requires intent in every definition that I have read.

Lastly, a suggestion from Elvis, that when an arbitration is requested, that a member accepts the arbitration to be public both in the details and outcome.

G. Open Microphone Session

There were no comments.

Z. Any Other Business

1. Using NRO Provided data - Seeing Trouble - Ruediger Volk, Deutsche Telekom

The presentation is available at:

Ruediger pointed out that there are inconsistencies in the NRO’s delegated stats data.

Kurtis Lindqvist replied that at least two of the CEOs of the NROs said during the Address Policy session that they will address this issue. Ruediger replied that was the intended response.