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Monday, 4 May 2009, 14:15 - 16:45
Grand Hotel Krasnapolsky, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Co-Chairs: Maria Häll, Martin Boyle
Scribe: Chris Buckridge
Status: Final

Maria Häll introduced the Chairs and the agenda, explained the preparatory meetings that had been held with government and law enforcement representatives earlier in the day.

Martin Boyle introduced himself and the panel on IPv6 deployment and why it is not being adopted.

Panel Discussion: Why is IPv6 not being adopted by the business community?

Chair: Martin Boyle (Nominet)
Tom Wills-Sandford (Intellect UK)
Patrik Fältström (Cisco, Swedish Government advisor)
Kurtis Lindqvist (Netnod)

Tom explained his background and interest in IPv6 deployment.

He noted that much of industry was unaware or poorly informed about the possible consequences of the depletion of IPv4 address space and how they might prepare for migration to IPv6.

He suggested the need for a positive marketing program, and noted that Intellect and organisations like them would find it very valuable if there existed a standard set of information from which to work. He suggested that some leadership is required here. Investing in preparing for IPv6 is well down the list of priorities for most managers, who have not got the evidence they need to make decisions. This needed to be in easy-to-understand language and provide some resource material that could help in preliminary planning - what he described as "cook books" and case studies.

Martin turned the conversation to Kurtis, on whether there is cause for concern, and if the RIPE community can assist. Kurtis noted that the more industry groups identify IPv6 adoption and bring it to the attention of their members, the better.

The more people preparing these resources (cookbooks etc.) the better, though coordination is also important, and the RIRs (including RIPE NCC and the RIPE community) can assist with this. He noted though that the vendors are helping; there has not been enough of a market to date, but this will change over time.

Martin asked Patrik how much lead time people need? Patrik noted that the technical community has only really turned onto the seriousness of this issue in the last few years, and it is good to see business not too far behind that. He noted the importance of requiring IPv6 in the next upgrade cycle, because if you miss one now, it's possible that it will be 10 years before the next cycle comes around. Tom agreed that emphasis needs to be placed on the upgrade cycle. Martin noted that it is the Senior Management who need to get behind these ideas, and this can be difficult.

Paul Rendek noted that the RIPE NCC will be launching a new IPv6 website, IPv6 Act Now, later in May, which fits the model of a cookbook that is accessible to the business and government communities. Rumy Kanis also noted that the RIPE NCC Training Team is using the RIPE 58 Meeting to shoot video testimonials of people who have deployed IPv6.

Patrik noted that governments and large organisations can be useful in developing Request For Proposal (RFP) guidelines to ensure IPv6 incorporation in all government-funded projects.

Jaap Akkerhuis noted that there is demand for information on IPv6, but that the people who require this information are often not at RIPE Meetings.

Government Updates on IPv6 Policy

Maria Hall (SE): Maria noted that Sweden will shortly take over the EU presidency, and will be focusing strongly on what is coming after EU's ICT program, i2010. This will include an IT Policy High Level conference in November 2009 (Visby Agenda - Creating Impact for an eUnion 2015), as well as an e-Governance Ministerial Conference. IPv6 adoption is an important part of both of those focus areas. She also focused on the importance of coordination and communication with other communities, RIPE being one of the most important in this area.

Kirsten Sanders (DK): Kirsten outlined how the Danish government is taking the lead in Denmark's IPv6 deployment. The government has drafted several documents on strategy and an Action Plan to roll out. She noted that there is a feeling that government is an important initiator, both through purchasing and also by assisting in connectivity deployment. International cooperation is also vital.

Constanze Buerger (DE): Constanze described the German government strategies for IPv6 deployment in government networks.

Jim Reid (UK): Jim outlined the strategies that the British Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) is developing. He noted the importance of moving from the center of the network out toward the edge, but noted that government is not going to be funding a wholesale move to IPv6. He also noted the task force that BERR will be setting up in the coming months.

RIPE NCC Cooperation Activities Update - Paul Rendek, RIPE NCC

Paul outlined the cooperation activities of the RIPE NCC (in many cases alongside other RIRs).

Open Discussion on Issues Raised at Earlier Government and LEA Meetings.

Marijn Schuubiers presented on what had taken place in the morning meetings, including the suggestion of a Cybercrime Task Force. This is still in the planning phase, and will be continued, in discussions at the meeting or online. Rob Blokzijl agreed that this is a good initiative, and advised on procedural aspects.

Bill Woodcock noted that the ARIN Government WG is doing similar work and would be useful to liaise with.

Brian Nisbett noted that there is an Anti-Abuse WG, and that those involved in this may find this interesting.

Mat Ford of ISOC noted that he supported this initiative.

There was some discussion of a recent program on Radio Four regarding the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA). Paul Hoare, of SOCA, noted that the program misrepresented the extent of SOCA's knowledge, but agreed that any additional support from the RIPE community would be very welcome.


George Michaelson of APNIC noted the new network deployment being discussed by the Australian government, and wondered if the government representatives felt that strong regulation would be appropriate at this moment in terms of IPv6. Maria noted that there are other ways than regulation, and that any regulation should be undertaken very carefully. Jim Reid spoke about the things happening in the UK, and noted that regulation is not really felt to be required.

Martin agreed with Jim, and noted that government want to stand back, but need to feel confident that industry is taking up the challenge. If they do not think that this is happening, then they might decide that regulation is necessary to avoid serious failure. He noted though that many countries see the regulatory model as the only model, and they will increase pressure to use this very soon, while trying to show the breakdown of the industry-led model. Patrik noted that the problem is that it is felt that the passive infrastructure should be open, and whether IPv6 should be included is only a very new topic of discussion.

Lorenzo Colitti of Google noted that the big step that needs to be fixed is getting IPv6 to users of large ISPs. He pointed out that the users don't actually know that they want IPv6, and they don't have the purchasing power that governments have. He wondered how governments see this happening? The technical solutions are well understood, but it's a question of scaling it up to large ISPs.

Moshen Souissi of AFNIC noted that he doesn't want regulation of IPv6 from government, but that government can make these requirements in their equipment upgrades. Lorenzo noted, however, that "setting an example" is perhaps not an effective means of promoting IPv6, and that there are plenty of examples set, but people don't necessarily follow.

Patrik noted that governments should be nervous when there are users that are ONLY using IPv6, and not IPv4, and that we are not there yet.