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Chat Logs

Antony Gollan - 24-11-2021 16:30:26
Hi everyone, I'm Antony from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:30:30

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:31:03
The new haircut is impressive :-)

Sander Steffann - 24-11-2021 16:31:11
+1 to haircut

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:31:16
indeed, looks very soft

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:32:26

Alvaro Guillen Lazo - 24-11-2021 16:33:19
is sound being transmitted ?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:33:22

Mark Janssen - 24-11-2021 16:33:32
sound and video is fine

Antony Gollan - 24-11-2021 16:34:33
Hi Alvaro, If you need help resolving a technical issue, please write to [email protected] or visit the ‘Virtual Tech Desk’ at

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 16:35:41
Is it just the one resolution (redistribution of surplus) to vote on? Or am I going to get a lot of Big Pulse mails? (Can't recall where this works.)

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 16:35:49

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 16:35:56
Just one, Tom.

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 16:36:05

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 16:36:11
You'll get the voting email not long before voting starts.

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 16:36:21
Already have one :)

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 16:36:29
Even better :)

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 16:36:51
hello everyone. @Erik - I am heeerrreee :P

Yuriy Bogdanov - 24-11-2021 16:37:55
wow, it was almost impossible, reg was closed

Markus Zeilinger - 24-11-2021 16:38:41
Audio quality is quite bad here, anyone else?

Yuriy Bogdanov - 24-11-2021 16:38:51
quality is good

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 16:38:54
audio quality is good here

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:38:55
fine for me

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 16:38:57
it is fine here

Wolfgang Zenker - 24-11-2021 16:38:58
its fine here

Markus Zeilinger - 24-11-2021 16:39:04
okay than the prob is on my side!

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 16:39:10
Yuriy, almost is the right word :)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 16:41:15
@Elvis Welcome to the GM :P

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 16:42:21
thanks :)

Maarten Wolzak - 24-11-2021 16:42:31
Seems again there's a diversity issue here... how can this improve?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:43:23
diversity of what?

Antony Gollan - 24-11-2021 16:44:03
Hi Maarten, if you want to ask this question, please write it in the Q&A panel (icon with question mark).

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:46:05
Maarten: You want the board to be chosen based on immutable characteristics?

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:46:11
I feel that diversity should be welcome, but not a goal in itself

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:46:25
Diversity is a proven good for boards and organisations.

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 16:46:28
@Maarten: it's not for the _board_ to do something about. It's _we_ (the membership) who elect the board. It's up to _us_ to do something about that. And we probably should.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:46:53
I agree with Brian Nisbet but you could ofc argue that I am biased

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:47:37
it's very important that .. ehm.. diverse people .. aren't discriminated against .. but you shouldn't get a preference because you are .. ehm.. diverse

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:47:47
It's a two way street. Organisations need to be shown to be welcoming and open to these things. So it's a problem for us all to solve.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:48:08
I definitely come from an organisation that lacks in diversity, hard

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:48:13
@Anders, but diversity is important as otherwise you could easily make decisions not realizing certain implications

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:48:18
Having the best people for the roles elected is a proven good for the board.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:48:38
Who decides who is "best" Terrence? It's very easy to continue to make assumptions about that.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:48:54
I mean, the members vote, sure, but "best" is a very subjective term.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:49:01
@Cynthia absolutely, I have no idea why my company is so lacking in diversity and have no idea what I could do about it

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 16:49:07
@Amders: true, but I see it this way: I'm trying to build a team (board), not by electing only the best, but to elect a group that works well together.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:49:09
I would argue that someone that might have more perspectives, could be a better candidate

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 16:49:33
@Cythia: +1

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:49:40
@Lars-Johan but then you would be selecting someone from what they can bring to the board, and not based on who they are

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:49:59
and that would be a good thing, I'd say

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 16:49:59
Terrence: The fear is that we're missing out on the best people for the job by, for whatever reason, not being inclusive of whole sectors of the potential pool of candidates.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:50:00
@Lars-Johan and that's a good thing

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 16:50:04
@Anders: yes, but who you are often shapes what you bring ...

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:50:04
Who's "best" is the question in any election. It's up to every person voting to decide.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:50:08
But what they can bring to the board is inextricably linked to who they are and their life experiences.

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:50:49
But I don't see how a person's sex organs or melanin content in the skin is relevant to the work on a board.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:50:55
it can be

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:51:12
Completely, because that changes their life, their experiences, their perspective etc.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:51:19
because it could imply that you have possibly had different experiences

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:51:22
Nothing is in isolation.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:51:22
who is Oleksiy Semenyaka? Is that an NCC employee that happens to be from a country being in conflict with another country?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:51:26
brian said it better

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:51:55
@Gert: Not quite that simple, but yes, the NCC staffer expelled from Russia.

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 16:52:02

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:52:14
thanks for refreshing my memory

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 16:52:27

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:52:30
Of course we want people with a diversity of viewpoints, but I don't see how those link up to immutable characteristics.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:52:36
*deep sigh*

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:53:25
@Terrence they don't necessarily but they very very often do mean that

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:53:32
@Terrence: Again, those characteristics shape people's lives, perspectives, opportunities, experience. My life would be very different if I wasn't born a cis white man in Ireland. A lot about me would be different, I would suspect.

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:54:09
You wouldn't be you if you weren't you, correct.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:54:23
That is an over simplification of what we're saying.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:54:49
should we have a diversity-wg ?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:54:58
we have a diversity-tf

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:55:02
(or had, idk tbh)

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:55:03
@Cynthia I think that we best focus on the different perspectives then, instead of using skin color and sex as proxies.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:55:14
that is just silly

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:55:35
you can't specify all of your life events like that

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:55:53
I'm not sure RIPE should be enforcing diversity, it should be the industry, and through that RIPE would naturally become more diverse

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:56:04
I mean we are not

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:56:08
the members vote

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:56:12
I'm not sure where you think different perspectives come from if not differences in a variety of things, including gender etc.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:56:23
And RIPE and the RIPE NCC should lead on this.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:56:40
Not alone, ofc.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:56:45
if we find RIPE to be biased towards "old" white males, I have faith in our community that there will be a major uproar... I'd definitely complain

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:56:54
I mean it is

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:56:57
*looks around for the uproar*

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:57:26
look at the board, there is one person on the board who is not a white man afaik

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 16:57:27
there are noticeable many old white males around

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 16:57:33
I believe (as a cis white man from a wealthy country) that the community is *definitely* biased towards people like me.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:57:54
@Brian my situation isn't much different from yours ..

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:58:03
To be sure immutable characteristics can lead to different perspectives. But I think it's not the right way to therefore focus on those immutable characteristics instead of the different perspectives we're after.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:58:18
but you can't focus on that

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 16:58:35
why not?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:58:45
like focusing on "perspective of women" instead of "women" is just silly

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 16:59:02
Speaking as not-yet old, but still while male. Is growing up in post-soviet country vs so-called west makes one diverse enough with a different perspective? Asking (not the first time) for a friend.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 16:59:36
@Piotr in my oppinion yes, it definitely is a diversity

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 16:59:44
I totally zoned out, are we talking about cogent?

Manuel Kälin - 24-11-2021 16:59:57
thank you

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:00:44
that's not what I am proposing. If women have a particular perspective that is valuable, then we can define what it is. It may not be present in only women, but also effeminate men for instance.

yaniv shahar - 24-11-2021 17:00:46
very poor sound quality ...

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:00:50
Piotr: That is not for me to decide, but it's definitely different to me and it represents a bunch of our members and service region. But I find it difficult to get *very* individual with this, if that makes sense. Like, I don't want to say that anyone on the Board shouldn't be there, like?

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:01:13
@Terrance: That is... wow. No.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:01:19
Terrence, sorry.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:01:20
yeah no that is madness

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:02:24
also I would just like to point out that I would consider age to not be immutable as it does change over time

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:02:28
I mean, also potentially offensive to... lots of different people on different levels.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:02:43

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:03:08
is there actually a population census for europe, detailing diversity ? I have no idea how the distribution is.. I'd suspect that male/female is about 50/50 split.. my daily life is more like a 99/1 split .. which isn't a good sign

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:03:30
Remember, not just Europe.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:03:42
oh right, I meant RIPE region ..

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:03:55
which would make more diversity more likely

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:03:59
@Anders, I mean all over the world it is going to be about 50/50 if you ignore certain places like China which have been skewed by historical policies

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:04:18
Fundamentally, we want to be open and inclusive, and that starts from those we elect to represent us, and they can only represent the community (or membership) if there are the right candidates.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:04:22
is the problem that we just need to encourage other countries to show up ?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:04:56
OK, basically you want more women, people with darker skin, etc. on the board, assuming that any of those groups have a different perception that is valuable?

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:05:02

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:05:07
Are you even reading what we're saying?

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:05:30
@Anders maybe just stay open and welcoming to new viewpoints and participants which want to get involved should be enough?

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:05:57
We can't just be passively open/welcoming, we have to be more active. And it's hard.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:05:59
@Gregory I hope thats enough, I think I've done that for 30 years ;)

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:06:08
@Brian yes, but I'm clearly not understanding

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:06:09
Consider actions and language.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:06:52
I think regarding age there are a few more complications arising from this being a volunteer position

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:06:53
@Brian why? what's the rationale for being active in this area? I would rather support view that organisation should focus on it's core purpose.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:07:12
I think one of the problems is that you learn how to be diversity welcomming by being in a diverse environment

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:07:22
Gregory, because I think the more inclusive the RIPE NCC is, the better the RIPE NCC becomes.

Job Snijders - 24-11-2021 17:07:24
for what it is worth, i am 36

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:07:29
@Anders being a member for 20+ years I believe we are doing this just fine.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:07:42
@Terrence People are different, on all levels, but there are broader differences. And homogeneity is proven to be less good for companies and communities than diversity. This isn't about having enough of X or Y, it's about not having all of Z, for a start. But that's just the start, for instance.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:08:05
Job, and that is great, but not many 36 year olds can take on these kinds of volunteer positions afaik

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:08:29
I think it's best to evaluate everyone that runs for a board seat on an individual basis.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:08:36
Because sure, you can say "let's have different perspectives and not look at gender or where people come from" but you can be a bit generic, along with the other filters like the electorate.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:08:56
@Terrence, yes and that includes evaluating how they might bring new perspectives

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:09:15
@Brian can you link me to any literature that proves that?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:09:44
I assume it might be true, but I'd like to educate myself

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:09:59
you can probably find it yourself if you really want to educate yourself

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:10:19
@Gregory Rob answered that, but diversity will improve the core function.

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:10:21
@Rob fully agree about being inclusive, do you feel current level of inclusivity is not at right level? In such case could you prepare a document which would demonstrate how we can become more inclusive and how it would be beneficial on core purposes of organisation?

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:10:34

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:10:49
<3 <3 Randy.

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:10:55

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:11:20
@Randy :clap:

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:11:21
Strategic goals are great, but shouldn't the RIPE NCC act more politically, more like the lobby guys eg. IP lawyers, towards eg. the EU commission to prevent unqualified regulation like the NIS 2.0 draft???

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:11:45
Constanze for NCC board!

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:11:58
@gert +1

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:12:00

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:12:03
@Tahar are you proposing for RIPE NCC to get involved in politics?

Antony Gollan - 24-11-2021 17:12:10
Hi Tahar, please write your question in the Q&A panel (icon with question mark) if you want it to be read out.

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:12:13

Ivan Pietukhov - 24-11-2021 17:12:14
Do we need to become a political organisation?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:12:22
please no

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:12:24
we are a political organization

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:12:25

Ivan Pietukhov - 24-11-2021 17:12:30
Or better to remain the technical organisation? Neutral?

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:12:31
like it or not

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:12:33
I want less EU politics in RIPE NCC if at all possible

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:12:34
I beg you not to follow this political path.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:12:59
if we do not take up the regulatory challenges, we will just be victimized by them

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 17:13:22
RIPE and the NCC is driven toward being a political entity by the society around us.

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 17:13:23
Less EU politics in the RIPE NCC while the RIPE service region overlaps with the EU is hardly possible, or how to take that?

Ivan Pietukhov - 24-11-2021 17:13:30
Gert, where is it written? Do we have the decision about this?

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:13:33
the NCC is already playing in the EU political sphere. it is not discussed much, and the community is not really synched in well.

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 17:14:00
@Randy: true, dat.

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:14:02
no chance to stay neutral! We will get horrible regulation due to other lobbyist groups!

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:14:18
Ivan: the NCC has always been fairly transparent about the political outreach - like, round tables, IGF, ...

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:14:40
we have to be much stronger

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:14:49
if RIPE members want to lobby, they should setup a separate entity for that.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:14:56

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:15:16
(or if you mean RIPE, this is the wrong context)

Gregory Brzeski - 24-11-2021 17:15:22
@Terrence very well said.

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:15:24
I agree that we should consider lobbying, but not through RIPE

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:15:25
no we have to stay unite to survive

Ivan Pietukhov - 24-11-2021 17:15:29
Yes. RIPE NCC participated in our national IGF, too. But as the neutral org. The political lobbying means that RIPE NCC is not that anymore

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:15:29
much of the action is NCC staff acting w/o bringing non-staff community. i am not sure this is good

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:15:48
Tahar: But for this we need also people from the community to support this. Either in companies and also on the political battle field.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:16:08
@Randy, I believe Piotr will attend IGF2021?

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:16:25
yes, a stronger coordination by RIPE NCC would help

Raymond Jetten - 24-11-2021 17:16:41
Piotr lives next door to the IGF :)

Mirjam Kühne - 24-11-2021 17:16:46
RIPE Chair will speak in the opening plenary of the IGF

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 17:16:49
Yes, indeed

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 17:16:56
I can see the venue even right now :D

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:16:58
@Mirjam, ooh fancy

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:17:03
Piotr, hah, neat

Mirjam Kühne - 24-11-2021 17:17:08
remote unfortunately

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:17:17
RIPE can advise or provide an opinion on technical implementations from a neutral point of view to political bodies. That is not making RIPE political.

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 17:17:18
although it is dark already

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:17:33
@tahar: i like your key word "coordination". currently not a coherent strategy and tactics with NCC staff and community members

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:17:55
Terrence: of course this is political. There is no pure technical view on "Internet"

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:17:55
@Piotr, it has been dark for hours here

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:18:15
it is just light here

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:18:26
Randy, aren't you in the US?

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:18:39
left coast

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:18:48
Chris Buckridge and Marco Hogewoning are going in the right direction, but the enemies of a free internet are getting stronger and recieve all the attention of governments and the EU Commission

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:18:49
... and it's been light for a long time on the right coast of the USA

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:18:52
08:15 here

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:18:57
oh god

Constanze Buerger - 24-11-2021 17:19:13
We need a clear political European attitude, a strong technic-political representation and the support of the communinty in all multi-stakeholder committees

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:19:18
... if you moved to this coast, you'd be better situated for .eu...

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:19:34
Constanze: +1

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:19:48
the left coast of usa, is that technically in hawaii ?

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:19:52
/me refrains from expressing opinion of the american beast coast

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:20:10

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:20:22
RIPE serves so many countries, if it were to become overtly political, whose politics would it push? If it went that route, it would push the politics of a vast minority of members and the rest would be unsatisfied. It's a recipe to destroy RIPE.

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:20:32
Anders: it may be Puerto Rico depending on where you're standing.

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:20:34
@Randy: Well, it *is* further from Texas, so it's got that going for it..>

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:20:50
Randy, wait... when did you get up today? :face_with_one_eyebrow_raised:

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 17:20:52
surprise, "the community" does not have a single opinion on contentious issues ...

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:21:11
@cynthia: 02:00

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:21:11
Peter: not if you and Jim are in the same room

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:21:14

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:21:26
that doesn't sound fun

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 17:21:49
@Gert :rolling_on_the_floor_laughing:

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:21:52
one does what one has to do

Wolfgang Zenker - 24-11-2021 17:22:04
@terence we might have differrent definitions of "political". In my opinion every interaction between people or groups of people is political

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 17:22:10
Constanze: +1

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:22:13
Return to hybrid meetings so Randy and Geoff (and many others) get a proper night's sleep!

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:22:37
what we need is a flat earth, this round stuff is annoying

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:22:42
Brian: this!

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:22:42
and so I get my dinner I have waited 1.5 years for

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:23:09
@Cynthia really really really hungry by now ? ;)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:23:13

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:23:26
Here I thought one could survive entirely on breakfast

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:23:30
@Anders: What, you don't already know that the earth is flat?! You've obviously been taken in by the consiracy....

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:23:32
@Wolfgang then the word loses any distinctive meaning. If everything is political already, then we don't need to consider the issue at all.

Marco d'Itri - 24-11-2021 17:23:38
will it be possible to present remotely to the berlin-hybrid meeting? I have some long-overdue talks to be proposed... :-)

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:23:44
(Second and third breakfasts included, of course)

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:23:50
Web forums, so 2000s, NCC Discord!

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:23:55
oh no

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:24:03
I want IRC back

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:24:14
IRC still exists

Job Snijders - 24-11-2021 17:24:17
I use IRC every single day :-)

Constanze Buerger - 24-11-2021 17:24:18
ahah we are public admin, email is top modern

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:24:19
Cynthia : It never left ..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:24:23
Job Snijders, me too :p

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:24:24
Discord is your IRC now.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:24:38
I was referring to using IRC for the hybrid meetings

Wolfgang Zenker - 24-11-2021 17:24:39
@Terence so what is your definition of political?

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:24:39
IRC is discord for grownups

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:24:44
discord: irc for eight year olds

Job Snijders - 24-11-2021 17:24:57
XKCD #1782

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:24:58
EFNet is real IRC :)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:25:00
wait, so what is between 8 and adult?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:25:05
tik tok?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:25:10
I'm biased as I run though

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:25:15
I'm suddenly reminded of the IETF conversation from the other day :p

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:25:24
I mean, it's all just text, like. Discord works better on my phone. :)

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:25:45
Job: can confirm, see you on IRC every single day.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:25:57
adult, what's that?

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:26:06
A myth

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:26:07
Discord actually works worse on my phone than my IRC client which is kinda impressive

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:26:34
wrong client?

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:26:34
That is indeed an "interesting" phone

Raymond Jetten - 24-11-2021 17:26:46
Gert: when the toys you want are way more expensive than as a child

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:26:47
rather discord being kinda bad

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:26:48
i also use irc, but not the spaces you folk are in. but slack has taken over much of my geek tech bandwidth, and friends and family are mad texters

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:27:03
Slack also works, ofc.

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:27:09
Cynthia: Assuming Nokia 9110. :)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:27:13
@Raymond, but I first looked at getting a personal LIR at age 13, does that mean I was an adult back then?

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:27:19
Gert : Let's not get a discussion here about adult ..

Raymond Jetten - 24-11-2021 17:27:42
@Cynthia its not impossible

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:27:48
Erik: Don't crash the party.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:27:54
I guess I was also filing taxes back then...

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 17:28:11
adult is when you don't have time to mess around with IP

Raymond Jetten - 24-11-2021 17:28:16
Some of us grow up faster than others

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:28:31
I just grow unevenly

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 17:28:36
Ah, you say that because you are large.

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:28:46
@Rob: Hah, I came across a Nokia 9500 recently while cleaning out my cupbaords.

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:31:59
I also found a pair of 'Nokia 770 Internet Tablet'. I spend quite a while trying to find someone who would put them to good use / collects them, but sadly they are no longer loved, and so I tossed them...

Wolfgang Tremmel - 24-11-2021 17:32:24
I still have a Sharp Zaurus somewhere here...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:32:27
I had one nokia phone (hand me down from my dad) from just before smartphones became a real thing, it was weird and great in combination of things

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:33:01
nokia n95 (not n95 masks :p)

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:34:28
Have you seen the 'Planet Computer' Cosmo / Geminis? I was super excited when they were released, but they don't *quite* seem to work.... Seemed like they would have made perfect emergency ssh terminals, but the keyboard didn't quite work out for unix-y use...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:35:48
looks like something for people using SSH on their phone (aka something I sadly don't think enough people want for it to work commercially)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:36:12
oh you even mentioned SSH

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:36:22
(the chat didn't autoscroll far enough for me to notice)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:37:34
@Elvis : If you wanted access to Zendesk at the RIPE NCC.. you shouldn't have left the RIPE NCC..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:37:41
lol erik

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:37:47
I'll never understand why people want "charge for PI" and "not charge for ASN" at the same time

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:37:58
Warren: I have a Kickstarter Gemini. No Android security patches since Dec 18, exactly one beta release of Linux. Android apps don't work well in landscape, even with tweaking of DPI settings, and Linux Window Managers aren't designed for that size of screen.

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:38:11
Sits largely unused now.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:38:29
@Warren, have you seen the pine64 pinephone keyboard thing that is scheduled to be released next month?

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 17:38:55
I occasionally poke Planet Computers when they're still trying to hawk the Gemini and have no software release on it past Android 8 with 2018 security patch.

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:39:09
Gert : probably best to go to the AMSIX model .. members .. and customers .. but the same type of charge .. and skip the indirect contractual agreement.

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:39:44
i like the SIX model, one time port fee

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:39:47
Only members can vote on the GM .. but for most of the parties .. a customer relationship is what they are expecting ..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:40:01
who is that one member at 100K :O

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:40:05
Erik: I keep disagreeing with you on that :-)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:40:07
Randy : that is why there is legacy ..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:40:28
oh right, randy still has a /16 of legacy space

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:40:37
Cynthia : had ..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:40:40

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:41:16
Gert : time for more beer and chat ..

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:41:19
i was talking of the seattle internet exchange, the SIX

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:41:44
LOL @ expected inflation

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:42:07
completely unrealistic

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 17:42:29
I'd sort of seen the keyboard thing, but it seemed slightly too big/bulky. At the moment I'm using a Samsung Z-Fold for this (, but I often leave it at home bacause it is still a bit bulky, and I much prefer iOS to Android.

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:42:53
lol Erik. I want access to a system that can show me history of conversation in a ticket, a list of open tickets/issues for an LIR, see what was done in the past and how.. have access to previous documentation and information about who has signed, for example, a document (x years ago, that employee may be gone already and all of it's data with him/her)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:43:03
Warren, wow, how high level do you need to be at your employer to get away with that? /s

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:43:04
Elvis: +1

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:43:46
and I had access to zendesk, RIPE NCC gave me access for a few weeks in 2020 before they figured out and removed my access. I was very happy with the system as it was, had access to the LIRs registered to my SSO, had access to history of tickets, ongoing tickets, etc...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:44:27
the real issue is that it is kinda difficult to represent a LIR and be NCC staff at the same time

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:44:45
so, the fact that the NCC refuses to provide that access to it's members is puzzling, especially since they promised in 2015 that the new ticketing system will blow our minds and then decided to keep zendesk to themselves

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:44:52
the whole "make their paying members use the worst thinkable interface" is indeed upsetting me as well

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:45:07
As I mentioned, we are looking into how we can imporve.

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:45:11
Cynthia - I stopped working for the ncc in 2013, in 2020 I had access to zendesk for a few weeks :)

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:45:31
+1 at horrible minimalistic ticketing system

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:45:33
I do not need much bells and whistles, but just being able to look at ongoing tickets and submit documents + comments IN THE SAME WAY would move this from "darkest hell" to "merely a bit annoying"

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:45:36
if zendesk is 'improve' i am not impressed

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:45:38
Hans - you are looking since 2015, I am sorry that I am so vocal but we keep hearing the same motto every time we bring it on

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:45:39
Elvis, oh, huh

Lars-Johan Liman - 24-11-2021 17:45:42
(@Elvis: there is very little "zen" in Zendesk ... ;-) )

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:45:59
now and zen

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:46:03
Elvis: wasn't HPH. But Felipe indeed promised me improvements "soonish", 5 years ago

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:46:08
so, personally pissed

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:46:30
Randy - compared to the blank page where you are asked to upload a file and add comments - it is a huge improvement

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:47:01
when the underlying problem is the zillion lirs for hoarding/resale, tweaking fees seems a bit like rearranging the deck chairs

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:47:48
rearranging deck chairs to appease the unrestful masses complaining about the ticket system from hell

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:48:18
changing the charging scheme will not make me shut up about the 'ticketing system from hell'

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:48:20
I will say that I feel pretty conflicted as I don't really like what I am doing with the LIR I am representing but at the same time, that is the only reason I am here currently

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:48:56
Elvis: I'm with you on this :-)

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 17:49:08
what are the taxation consequences when distributing resources at "market value"?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:49:26
@Peter, Q&A

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:49:32
I don't like to agree in public with Elvis .. but he has a point ..

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:49:38
if you start selling the deck chairs, income needs to be taxed

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:49:46
@Elvis: and yet, more folks pay their RIPE fees than use the ticketing system :)

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:49:52
Erik: :grinning_face_with_one_large_and_one_small_eye:

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:50:22
@gert: the sale/tax/... issues have a long history of being avoided in the other RIRs

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:50:22
Erik, btw I checked, according to the RIPE DB, RGnet has a legacy status /16

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:50:23
Gert : 50 euro for an ASn ..

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 17:50:37
(Granted, history of tickets raised would be good - with you there.)

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:50:39
yes, model B! this!

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:50:42
but given that we have randy here, he is probably a better source

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:51:15
@cynthia: if so, you may want to report a database error

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 17:51:20

Felipe Victolla Silveira - 24-11-2021 17:51:28
@Gert, what you want in the ticketing system (being able to comment and respond directly in the Portal without using email) is what we are working on at the moment. My apologies again for the long delay, I have indeed promised you back in the meeting in Reykjavik

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:51:53
@Tom - when you work for 20-30-50 LIRs/organizations, the zendesk helps bring some order in tickets. currently I have to rely on my e-mail client and search by ticket # whenever I want to look for something or reply to a question

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:51:57
fwiw, i am quite happy with email. i dislike webby stuff

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:51:58
Felipe :and history of tickets .. / uploads ..

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:52:25
ticket history would be awesome

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:52:38
Randy: given that email is broken more and more, I am willing to accept a reasonable web portal that lets me do and see all stuff I need to do and see, without too many hoops to jump

Jeroen Massar - 24-11-2021 17:53:04
At least one can have some kind of ensured 2FA on a portal

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 17:53:04
also, re: charging model I don't like it. I have multiple /16's

Sascha Lenz - 24-11-2021 17:53:06
. o O(... I want an app for that! ... SCNR )

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 17:53:12
Felipe - what you are saying that you are working on is what you are *actually* doing right now. providing access *only* to respond to a ticket in the LIR Portal, nothing else.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:53:14
indeed... ticket by LIR (and possibly "sponsored end organization"), history, etc.

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:53:17
as far as i know, the ncc seems to run a pretty competent email system

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:53:36
Randy: but their ticket system is not competent wrt e-mail interaction

Felipe Victolla Silveira - 24-11-2021 17:53:37
@Erik, we are looking at providing access to ticket history too. There are some confidentiality issues that have to be taken into account

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:53:49
Please have a look at the last roadmap

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:54:05
Randy: trying to get ticket data into our ticket system on the other end is major pains, as you can't set Subject: line tags (for example)

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:54:20
We are more than happy to take input for the next quarter.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:54:28
so, for each incoming mail, edit subject:, trim the full ticket content from the incoming mail, then forward onward

Felipe Victolla Silveira - 24-11-2021 17:54:48
@Elvis, no. Access to ticket history and integration with the Portal. But as I said, there are confidentiality concerns about providing access to history

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:55:14
HPH: work 2-3 lengthty tickets from the LIR perspective. That will give really strong incentives...

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:55:16
Maybe we should focus on the Charging scheme being discussed and move the ticketing system discussion to the Services WG?

Yuriy Bogdanov - 24-11-2021 17:55:18
very not healthy offers to charge members for extra ripe work. LIRs already pay for service and service should be delivered. database updates doesn't use huge amount of human resources. even almost all could be automated already.

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:55:47
i am a light user of the hostfolk's services. and much of my use is strange, i.e.e research stuff. so i confess to a somewhat unusual view.

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:55:57
Ondrej : the AP-WG isn't the place for the charging schema ... I've been told.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:56:24
Randy: interaction with non-RS parts is mostly okayish. The LIR-to-RS bit is...

Carlos Friacas - 24-11-2021 17:56:35
Keep the current.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:57:02
we can move the charging scheme to APWG, would simplify Erik's and my life :-)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 17:57:30
Gert : lol

Yuriy Bogdanov - 24-11-2021 17:57:53
but its should be services wg or?

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 17:58:00
I would submit all the proposals and Erik can then declare consensus.

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:58:09
@hph: to be blunt, having a minority view i am keeping my mouth shut

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:58:22
Roadmap=> Services WG

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:58:25
If the answered questions could be cleared out of the Q&A queue I suspect that would help everyone, btw.

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 17:58:34
CHarging scheme =>GM

Wolfgang Tremmel - 24-11-2021 17:58:43
return an AS, get a one-time discount

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 17:59:15
an income tax! wow!!!

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 17:59:39
Speaking as a charity, sure. :) (Speaking as a member, yeah, no.)

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:00:01
HPH - I've raised this both in GM and Services WG for a few meetings already. It has not been to any effect yet as we have not seen anything else but 'we'll work on it'

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:00:01
I am not too up on charging ASNs as there not being a fee on them is why I managed to get familiar with the world of RIPE & RIPE NCC

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:00:57
I'd love a way to exchange smaller blocks for a larger one. Would be good for the routing table. For instance, return 4x/22, get a /20 back.

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 18:00:58
Elvis: Refer to the Roadmap

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:00:59
it has been at least a few RIPE Meetings (3-4-5?) since I've personally talked to you and Felipe about this. it is frustrating to see the same answer every 6 months.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:01:18
@Terrence, the NCC doesn't have any /20s I am pretty sure

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 18:01:20
you want the same answer more often? :)

Hans Petter Holen - 24-11-2021 18:01:29
and make suggestions in Services wg for the next ones. If there is significant support we will consider it. Lets look forward.

Christian Bretterhofer - 24-11-2021 18:01:33

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:01:51
HPH - it says "There were requests from the community to improve some areas of the ticketing system. We are analysing at the moment what is possible and have planned out improvements."

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 18:02:04
All the presentations are there, Erik.

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:02:10
maybe Felipe will share with us what improvements have been planned already.

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 18:02:12
@Erik It is in the presentations section

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:02:48
spamming is a valid use of IP space

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:03:01
+1 Gert :)

Marco d'Itri - 24-11-2021 18:03:19
but which destroys its market value

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:03:20
(specifically, is valid "document need", though people might frown on the actual spam .-) )

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 18:03:32
FCVO valid, indeed.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:03:49
"I need an IP address to run this service on, which is legal in my country"

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:04:06
(and then we're back to a common understand of "what is abuse", yeah)

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 18:04:15

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:04:54
@Marco - I've brokered lots of IPs in the past 8 years, some were blacklisted. Brokers understand the blacklisting process and can help the receiving party to get the blocks cleaned quite easily

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:05:19
@piotr : thnx.. found it

Wessel Sandkuijl - 24-11-2021 18:06:01
+1 Cynthia

Clément Cavadore - 24-11-2021 18:06:17
+1 Cynthia too.

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 18:06:23
i thought ipv4 ipv6 parity was a goal

Sander Steffann - 24-11-2021 18:07:20
+1 to Randy

Petru Bunea - 24-11-2021 18:07:53
Do you realise that top 5% of LIRs hold - probably around or even more - than 50% of entire IPv4 pool? The fee increase for them is pocket change, compared to what small companies have to pay. It is one thing to charge a VPS/hosting/datacenter company 5000 euros per year, and another thing to charge Deutsche Telekom or other huge LIR around 10.000 euros per year. It is not simply fair related to amount of IPs versus amount paid.

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:07:53
Hey Wessel :)

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 18:08:49
@Petru: Please note that not everyone who has substantial IP address space are commercial companies. NRENs often have a lot, for instance.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:09:15
such as the one Maria works for

Wessel Sandkuijl - 24-11-2021 18:09:19
Hi Terrence

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 18:09:28
I mean, the one I work for.

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 18:09:33
Was what I was thinking.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:09:34
oh right lol

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:10:21
regardles of the fee, e-invoicing by RIPE NCC would really help us:

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:11:03
Gert : are you hearing this .. ?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:11:17
@Cynthia obviously, but RIPE could facilitate exchanges among LIRs so we can all better aggregate.

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:11:19

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:12:06
I am hearing. But I would really like to sit down on a shared table and discuss this over a few beers

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:12:20
Sounds like a good idea ...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:12:26
@Terrence, but I doubt many people who be interested in that unless it resulted in them getting more aggregation or financial compensation

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:12:37
I do not care much about "complexity inside the NCC", but I do care about incentives for LIRs to do the right thing :-) (and about policy, for some reason)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:12:39
Bars in The Netherlands close early .. how is Germany doing on that these days ..

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 18:12:43
i strongly agree discussing, would suggest a round table, but i'll pass on the drugs

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:12:52
'Huge LIR' implies it's all in one LIR, incidentally.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:12:56
we are going into a ful lockdown soon

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:13:10
Randy: I do like alcohol-free beer too

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:13:14
are you open for Zoom drinking / discussing ?

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:13:22
virtual beer sucks

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:13:40
I can't wait for the IETF to be in ... London.

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:13:50

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:14:00
Erik, Gert, I think stuff is open in Sweden

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:14:12
@Gert +1 incentive to the right things to do

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:14:14
might be a bit far :p

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:14:18
we could do virtual whiskey, would you be open to that Gert? I can sponsor a few bottles ;)

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:14:29
Cynthia: but DE might be considered a "high risk" country, so quarantaine on traveling to SE...

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:14:33
this is all very annoying here

Randy Bush - 24-11-2021 18:14:37
london was second most sucky ietf venue. @erik: yes, i think a powerpoint free discussion would be great. and i have a zoom account

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:15:01
@Cynthia RIPE is perfectly situated to implement a system where many LIRs offer smaller prefixes in return for larger ones, the more participate, the more chance larger prefixes can be cut from the returned smaller prefixes. Every LIR would benefit by more aggregation.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:15:03
Gert, hm, I am not sure tbh, I don't think there is (mandatory) quarantine here

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:15:06
@randy I'm not surprised, though a cap on numbers was mentioned, so it might involve a different (better) venue.

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:15:20
Gert : SE doesn't care .. they are hoping on the person their own responsibility to do the right thing .. and open the bars .. but the cost per beer there .. ai ...

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:15:24
I made it to the NANOG/ARIN meeting in Minneapolis a few weeks back. It was somewhat sureal, but great to be able to finally meet people again.

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:15:24
OTOH, the RIPE72 venue in CPH would make an excellent venue.

Raza Rizvi - 24-11-2021 18:15:47
I think you have done a good job trying to take into account all the conflicts Ondrej - coming up with a new charging scheme is always going to annoy some!

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:15:52
Erik, you should have come to the Netnod meeting, I think they paid for the entire bar tab

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:16:04
Not London. Randy -- what was the most sucky?

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:16:08
Cynthia : hence the IXP port price ..

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:16:13

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:16:21
Erik, I am not a netnod customer though

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:16:26

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:16:42
I'd be happy to have a RIPE meeting basically anywhere - I miss y'all...

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:16:50

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:17:01

Mirjam Kühne - 24-11-2021 18:17:09

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:17:13
*awaits -1 from randy*

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:17:39
HPH : Legacy has a seperate policy ... if this isn't included in the policy isn't the NCC to decide otherwise .

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:18:02
reconnecting audio...

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:18:20
then lets go to simon jahn

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:18:24
and the next item

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:18:24
Best speech ever ..

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:18:28
see if I get my voice back

Sander Steffann - 24-11-2021 18:18:48
It wouldn't be a proper online meeting without someone losing audio :)

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:18:54

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 18:19:00
Just noticed there is someone in the audio queue too?

Piotr Strzyżewski - 24-11-2021 18:19:02

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:19:11
oh hi Sander, do you know for sure if netnod paid for the bar at the event?

Job Snijders - 24-11-2021 18:22:54
@jerome sorry for some of us missing you queued up, Christian noticed... but he didn't manage to tell us because audio issue! We will return to your question after this presentation

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 18:26:51
Yes, I apologize, I did not see it. You will get the mike after Simon-Jan;s presentation.

Sander Steffann - 24-11-2021 18:30:44
Cynthia: I think so…

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:32:08
The bus to the social leaves in 30 minutes :'(

Constanze Buerger - 24-11-2021 18:32:21

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:32:35
:-) one can walk but it takes 45 min:-)

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:32:41

Constanze Buerger - 24-11-2021 18:32:53
miss you all

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:32:56
You've no idea how accurate both of those statements are true for me this evening.

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:33:01
It's a bit cold to walk though, isn't it?

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:33:13
@Tom lol:-)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:33:18
I am excited for the next in person RIPE meeting as it will be my first

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:33:27

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:33:31

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 18:33:42
@Warren - we can take a cab

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:34:02

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:34:17
@Cynthia: actual amazement that you've presented here, without being in the room previously. That's cool.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:34:25

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 18:34:40

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:34:41
I'd have been very daunted, I think

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:35:01
I mean I was very nervous as you can notice on my voice in the recording :p

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:35:16
tbf I was highly distracted by the Shark

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:35:22

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:35:25

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:35:29
I have become used to stand before the grand ballroom, in front of hundreds of people reading their e-mail... and I totally dislike presenting virtually

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:35:51
I have to say that I prefer presenting in person

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:36:03

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:36:24
seeing people's faces often makes it easier

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:36:35
(based on my very limited experience)

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:36:43
most definitely

Sander Steffann - 24-11-2021 18:36:47
It does, and it is also nicer as an audience to have that real-time interaction

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:36:47
Peter +1

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:37:04
thnx HPH.. good answer.. just wanted to ask the question ...

Erik Bais - 24-11-2021 18:37:23
Thanks Simon-Jan.. great presentation. ;)

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:37:28

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:39:30
@Tom Hill, wait does this mean that I need to bring a shark with me if I ever do a talk in person?

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:39:55

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:40:08

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:40:14
if you can, always have a shark next to you :D

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:40:29
they are just so big to travel with

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:40:54
Or, if you are Ondrej, a massive lion?!

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:41:06

Tom Hill - 24-11-2021 18:41:35
In fairness, I'll listen more *without* the shark :D

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:42:07
Yes, Ondrej, there is a lion behind you... don't make any sudden movements, and just walk away slowly...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:42:11
I mean in some places like berlin there are both ikeas and friends who could adopt the shark afterwards so I wouldn't need to travel with it

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:42:58
@Tom, but that is bad, then you will notice the mistakes

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:43:38
... if we meet in Berlin, there is also the zoo, and they may be willing to adopt it. Berlin also has the benefit of 'Ja! Niko Ja!'...

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:44:09
But, well, the airport situation...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:44:46

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:45:17
I mean Berlin has a new airport now, and believe it or not, I have already brought an IKEA shark through security at BER

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 18:45:23
@Warren: "Don't mention the airport!"

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:46:18
Isn't Berlin airport the "please use the train" thing?

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:46:29
Oh, sorry, I forgot... but I am still suffering some TXL PTSD...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:46:32
I of course got my backpack manually checked (due to the amount of tech) and I think the shark actually helped in convincing them that I am not a threat to them

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:46:44
Is anybody aware of finance departments asking to insert IPv4 addresses as an asset into the balance sheet? Looking at market prices, they can represent quite a value.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:47:08
why would they want to pay more taxes?

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 18:47:22
yes, BER is assumed to be a fridaysforfuture thing :-)

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:47:38
Rephrase: the external auditor?

Kaveh Ranjbar - 24-11-2021 18:48:00
IIRC IKEA Shark was discontinued recently

Petru Bunea - 24-11-2021 18:48:02
@Michel some accountants have problems on how to consider Paypal payments, do you really want to boggle them with IPv4 asset valuation and revaluation ?

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:48:09
@Michel IP blocks I bought I have put on the balance sheet, obviously.

Kaveh Ranjbar - 24-11-2021 18:48:20

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:48:52
@Michael: last accountants I met considered domains as a value (sic), but not IP addresses

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:49:03
Kaveh, in some places

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:49:12
they are still available in Sweden at least

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:49:24
@Peter: some companies live of domain's value...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:49:29
Kaveh, I contacted several of their PR departments regarding this

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:50:07
I know, Michael. But those were domains bound to the companies name, not soething you turn into fast money

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:50:08
And in the USA as well...

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:50:17
If a company buys a /16 for instance, how can it not end up on the balance as an asset?

Petru Bunea - 24-11-2021 18:50:19
@Michel that is true, however sometimes accountants live in a parallel world

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:50:26
the money just evaporated?

Kaveh Ranjbar - 24-11-2021 18:50:36
As a human being I want to thank you for your efforts Cynthia!

Petru Bunea - 24-11-2021 18:50:42
@Terrence: if it buys then yes, if it has it for a few years then it's another story

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:50:43
@Terrence more thinking about those holding /16 since ages.

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 18:50:50
@warren - wallpaper in my office

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:50:57
the whole point of a balance sheet is to be in balance, so money out means IPs in

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:51:14
<Warren starts looking into an international shark smuggling operation...>

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:51:17
Erik entertainmeint

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:51:35
Sorry for putting that "a" into Michel, @Michel

Warren Kumari - 24-11-2021 18:51:35
@Ondrej: Brave, you are...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:51:49
Kaveh, thank you :)

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 18:51:50
@warren - having a wall paper. :-)

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:51:55
@Michel ah I see. I assume you wouldn't want to unless neccesary

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:52:35
@Terrence exactly, like beeing forced by external auditor.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:53:02
I disagree with Erik on these accounts

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:53:06
I don't think any auditors are aware of the value of IPs

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:53:09
Or suddenly improving your financials, if you are in need to..

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:53:15
it will just make people register new companies and come in with a "new name"

Terrence Koeman - 24-11-2021 18:53:16

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:54:15
the suggestion "make the last /24 come with a holding period of 10 years" might actually work

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 18:54:29
+1 for long holding period

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:54:57
Forcing creation of new company can raise the cost.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:55:05
by a tiny bit

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:55:13
it is stupidly easy and cheap in the UK for example

Anders Mundt Due - 24-11-2021 18:55:16
not sure holding period would make a difference if you're allready running 80 companies to harvest /24s ..

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:55:45
why is there a need to support sellin ip ranges at all. Bound for lifetime. Dont need it? give it back to ripe. Sorry

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:55:59
Michael: by something like 30 UKP...

Petru Bunea - 24-11-2021 18:56:12
@Peter: they can always sell the company along with the LIR, workarounds are everywhere

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 18:56:21
Peter: so you sell your business with the assets... that won't work either

Michel Lanners - 24-11-2021 18:56:22
Repeating a question I got in our own conference: any plans to deprecate IPv4 in general?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:56:23
it just reduces quality

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:56:28
I'm also waiting in the audio queue

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:57:01
true, Petru. But it should come with some headaches. Not just selling/buying the range as it is, in a more or less fee market

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 18:57:14
@Elvis, I know:-)

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:57:23
@Peter but it makes the data quality worse

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:57:33
thanks CK

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:57:37
Sure, Cynthia?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:57:39
because it makes it more complicated to find out who controls some prefix

Yuriy Bogdanov - 24-11-2021 18:58:24
elvis where are you

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:58:28
safari doesn't work

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:58:29
I cannot follow this statement, sorry Cynthia. I do not see what could make it harder to follow owneship of ranges in terms of the way you sell them

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 18:58:30

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 18:59:03
@Peter if you sell the company but require the space to still be registered to the same company

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 18:59:43
If you sell the company, you would sell the range as well, no?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:00:01
yes, but it would still be registered to that original company

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:00:33
Not really, you sell XY company holding IP, so the IP stick woth XY company.

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:00:35
so instead of being shown as being registered to "ISP A" it would be "IPv4 holding company 1321 Ltd" or something like that

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:00:55
@Peter, yes but that is just going to cause confusion

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:01:08
as then you need to look up corporate ownership

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:01:12
Yes, Cynthia. And now combine this with the "you need to use it as well", and we are one step further

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:01:21

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:01:43
force people using their ranges

Daniel Neculai - 24-11-2021 19:01:49
@Elvis - Of course you are... you are one of those that speculate on IPv4 market...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:01:53
I really don't understand the reasoning

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:02:06
do you consider confusing data in the registry as a positive?

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:02:20
IPs shouldnt be a true value, an assett.

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:02:35
deploy IPv6, abandon IPv4, market price will disappear

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:02:37
but they have a large value

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:02:44
that is just how it is

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:02:48
you can't get around it

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:02:49
they hould not, right?

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:03:04
no, that's how we as an industry made them... we could have done IPv6 in the last 20 years...

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:03:10
Not without huge pressure to ip holders, true

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:03:36
it was predicted that IPv6 deployment would be delayed until IPv4 gets unreasonably expensive... and this is what you got

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:03:39
@Peter, with your idea they would keep having a large value, all we would get is worse registration data

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:04:28
if "ISP A" uses the space, it should be registered to "ISP A", not registered to "holding co 1231"

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:04:56
Cynthia: if you cannot sell them to another company without returning them to RIPE first, you might be able tosolve one part of this problem

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:05:15
Daniel, I broker transfers of IPs that are owned by others. that

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:05:21
@Peter, no

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:05:23
that is not speculation, that's providing a service

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:05:26
Peter: but you cannot enforce that. People sell their businesses with all their assets (routers, line contracts, addresses) for totally legitimate reasons

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:05:27
because you can still sell the company itself

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 19:06:21

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:06:35
Gert: if they sell their whole business with routers and stuff and USED ip addresses, it is absolutely fine. Just measure the use of IP addresses. Nice circle ;)

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:06:48
how do you measure address usage?

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:06:55
@Peter that doesn't change anything

Gert Doering - 24-11-2021 19:06:57
this is all very easy to fake

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:07:07
it is trivial to just announce the IP space you are currently holding

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 19:08:24
why do we continue these country ranking lists, even without putting the numbers in relation to #members?

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 19:08:50
tradition:-) but good point

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:08:58
@Peter, I think your idea would just make everything worse for legitimate business mergers/acquisitions, and not really do much to change the value of IP space

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:08:59
Yes, and the more you need to fake in order to preserve your hollow company fake just made to keep ip ranges, the less advantage is in there. On the other hand, lets just finalize the IPv6 stuff, and we are done with IP brokers for ever...

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:09:10
the costs far outweigh it

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:09:27
sorry not costs, I mean value

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:09:53
@Cyntia, I guess we can argue forever on that. Nobody including me said there is asingle answer that solves it all. Let's agree on that

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 19:09:54
@Peter Tradition indeed as CK says. We were asked for more stats at one GM around ten years ago and started to provide these, but we can look again at that.

Daniel Neculai - 24-11-2021 19:09:55
Elvis, so you are not involved in any LIR that was open to get IP space for sell? Then maybe I misunderstood... sorry...

Christian Kaufmann - 24-11-2021 19:10:28
@Fergal, thx:-)

Tristan Helmich - 24-11-2021 19:11:03
Bigpulse does not support ipv6. So if you want to vote you need pesky ipv4 space. Does this skew the results? :wink:

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 19:11:21
it's my ESC experience, want to be last ;-)

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 19:11:51
@Tristan We are talking to Bigpulse about that and I hope we see progress there soon.

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 19:11:59
Are there IPv6-only members?

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 19:12:19
more seriously, i don't think numbers that don't take into account the size of the economy^Wcountry nor the number of members, do not say very much

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:12:33
there are plenty of members that do not have IPv4, look at the ones on the waiting list today...

Clément Cavadore - 24-11-2021 19:12:34
Thanks !

Job Snijders - 24-11-2021 19:12:39
thank you everyone!

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 19:12:42

Herve Clement - 24-11-2021 19:12:44
Thanks !

Cynthia Revström - 24-11-2021 19:12:45

Erik Steiger - 24-11-2021 19:12:45

Brian Nisbet - 24-11-2021 19:12:46

Tahar Schaa - 24-11-2021 19:12:47
well done

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 19:12:47
@Peter Good point, and not something too difficult for us to provide

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 19:12:50

Falk vonBornstaedt - 24-11-2021 19:12:50

Ondrej Filip - 24-11-2021 19:12:51
Thank you

Peter Stimpel - 24-11-2021 19:12:51
Cheers, nice evening

jehan procaccia - 24-11-2021 19:12:55

Peter Koch - 24-11-2021 19:12:56
thanks, bye!

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 19:12:58
Elvis, but the new members are not yet allowed to vote IIRC.

Sebastian Becker - 24-11-2021 19:13:00
And thanks!

Rob Evans - 24-11-2021 19:13:01
The figures have been interesting when traditionally under-represented countries occasionally have large voting numbers...

Fergal Cunningham - 24-11-2021 19:13:05
Goodbye all, and thanks.

Ulf Kieber - 24-11-2021 19:13:12

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:13:27
Robert, true.. but it may be that some will stay on the list for more than 6 months

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 19:13:59
Okay, what I wanted to say is that RIPE NCC somehow mandates IPv4 for the GM voting…

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:14:19
that is true, and they apparently are working on it and have been for years :)

Robert Scheck - 24-11-2021 19:14:36
Yes, for the same years like ticketing ;-)

Elvis Daniel Velea - 24-11-2021 19:14:48
exactly like that, maybe even a bit longer

Daniel Neculai - 24-11-2021 19:15:37
There are many that are in waiting list just to get that /24 so they can sell it some times later... I know cases like this in the latest years