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Draft Minutes NCC Contributors Committee Sep1 1995

  • To: NCC Contributors < >
  • From: Daniel Karrenberg < >
  • Date: Sat, 09 Sep 1995 15:22:53 +0200
  • Cc: Local Internet Registries in Europe < >

Dear colleagues,

attached you find the draft minutes of last week's meeting.  We have
made them slightly more narrative than usual in order to give those who
could not be present some insight in the decision making process and
provide additional information not contained in the relevant documents. 
We have also tried to report the discussions in a logical order and
under the agenda points where they belong. 

Comments are welcome, to me please as Mirjam is on vacation now. 

I have physically included only the ASCII version.  You can download the
PostScript, which is much nicer, automatically too if you have a MIME
compliant mail reader.  Otherwise you can find it at
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/minutes-950901.ps

Regards

Daniel Karrenberg
RIPE NCC Manager

                                     RIPE NCC Contributors Committee
                                                         2nd Meeting
                                                       Draft Minutes
                ____________________________________________________




                               Second Metting of the

                          RIPE NCC Contributors Committee

                                   Draft Minutes



                The meeting was called by Steve Druck,  TERENA  vice
                president  for  services,  and held on September 1st
                1995 at the Hilton Hotel Schiphol  Airport,  Amster-
                dam, Netherlands.

                These  minutes were prepared by Mirjam Kuehne of the
                RIPE NCC.

    Participants


                Bernward Averwald       de.roka
                Jens Baedeker           de.csl-gmbh
                Lajos Balint            hu.hungarnet
                Stephan Biesbroeck      be.belnet
                Antonio-Blasco Bonito   it.garr
                Daniel David            de.ipf
                Jim Dixon               uk.vbcnet
                Steve Druck             TERENA (Chairman)
                Lubos Elias             sk.sanet
                Yoshiko Chong Fong      APNIC (Observer)
                Daniel Karrenberg       RIPE NCC
                Rolf Krause             de.roka
                Mirjam Kuehne           RIPE NCC (Minutes)
                Siegfried Langenbach    de.csl-gmbh
                Humberto Lucas          fr.eunet
                Javed Mirza             uk.cabletel
                Isabelle Morel          fr.renater
                Kees Neggers            nl.surfnet
                Svend Moeller Nielsen   dk.tbit
                Arnold Nipper           de.xlink
                Mike Norris             ie.heanet
                Juergen Rauschenbach    de.dfn
                Pavel Rosendorf         cz.eunet
                Miguel A. Sanz          es.rediris
                Ian Smith               uk.janet
                Oliver Smith            uk.demon
                Nigel Titley            uk.bt
                Pavel Vachek            cz.cesnet
                Peter Villemoes         dk.denet fi.funet no.uninett ...
                Wim Vink                eu.eunet

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                Olle F. Wallner         se.swipnet
                Wilfried Woeber         at.aconet



    Apologies

                The following people had sent their apologies  prior
                to the meeting:

                Rob Blokzijl           RIPE
                Henk Hofs              nl.ibm
                Willi Huber            ch.switch
                Eric Malmstrom         se.transpac
                Joy Marino             it.itnet
                Olivier Martin         CERN (sponsor)
                Axel Pawlik            de.eunet
                Ivan Sedinic           hr.hpt
                Cliff Stanford         uk.demon
                Agathoclis Stylianou   cy.univ
                Dimitris Zisiadis      gr.forthnet



    1.  Welcome & Preliminaries

                Steve Druck welcomed the participants was elected to
                chair the meeting.  He welcomed Yoshiko  Chong  Fong
                of the Asian Pacific NIC as an observer to the meet-
                ing.

                Wim Vink asked to re-add discussion of the Terms  of
                Reference.  He  explained  that he wished to discuss
                the voting procedures.  This was added as point 7.

                Later the discussion about  waiving  fees  (original
                point  6)  was  moved  ahead  of the charging scheme
                (original point 5).















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    Agenda

                The final agenda for the meeting:


                1   Welcome, Selection of Chair for Meeting
                    Steve Druck, TERENA VP for Services

                2   NCC Activity Report Q1-Q3/95
                    Daniel Karrenberg, RIPE NCC Manager
                    Presentation of reports already given.
                    For information and comments.

                3   NCC Financial Report Q1-Q3/95
                    Daniel Karrenberg, RIPE NCC Manager
                    Presentation of Q1/Q2 Report plus  then  avail-
                    able Q3 results.
                    For information and comments.

                4   NCC Activity Plan and Expenditure 1996
                    Daniel Karrenberg, RIPE NCC Manager
                    Proposal sent out July 31st.
                    For discussion and decision.

                5   Procedures for Waiving of NCC Fees
                    Steve Druck, TERENA VP for Services
                    See discussion on mailing list.

                6   NCC Charging Scheme 1996
                    Daniel Karrenberg, RIPE NCC Manager
                    Proposal sent out July 31st.
                    For discussion and decision.

                7   Contributors Committee Terms of Reference
                    Wim Vink, eu.eunet
                    Voting Procedures
                    To start discussion.
















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    2.  NCC Activity Report, Q1-Q3/1995

    Documents

                "RIPE NCC Expenditure Planning 1995"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-exp.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-exp.txt

                "Short (Monthly) Reports"
                as sent to the mailing list.


    Workload

                The registration services workload is still increas-
                ing beyond the expectations on which the 1995 budget
                was  based.   There  are  currently  253 LIRs.  This
                reflects the general boom in the Internet  business.
                Consequently  demands  on registration services have
                been much bigger than expected and planned for.

                The NCC has  given  registration  services  priority
                since  the  customers depend on this for their busi-
                nesses.  As a consequence other activities are  suf-
                fering significantly.


    Actions

                NCC is striving to automate as many standard activi-
                ties as possible.  A  number  if  immediate  actions
                have been taken to deal with this situation:

                 o   A request ticketing system has been implemented
                     and deployed.

                 o   A request tracking (workflow  management)  sys-
                     tems is being implemented.

                 o   A one day training course for new LIRs has been
                     developed.  Presented 3 of them  already,  have
                     scheduled more.



    Staffing

                With the revised budget (see below) the NCC has pro-
                ceeded to hire junior staff  for  registration  ser-
                vices.

                 o   Have  signed  contract  with  Hatice  Kuey from
                     Turkey in May, but have problems  to  get  work
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                     permit  for  her  due to recent change in Dutch
                     employment law.  TERENA is pursuing  this  with
                     the Dutch authorities at the highest level.

                 o   Els Willems started July 1995

                 o   Nick Reid started 28th August 1995

                 o   Have  advertised for and will hire at least one
                     more part-time junior hostmaster this year.


                NCC has lost a senior  hostmaster  (Anne  Lord)  who
                went  back  to  the  UK to work for an ISP.  NCC has
                advertised fo her position, hope to replace  her  in
                October.


                NCC  has  advertised for deputy manager.  The number
                of useful  applications  was  very  limited.   After
                intensive  negotiations  no  candidate  fitting  the
                required profile remained.  The plan  is  to  change
                the profile in the direction of a "business manager"
                and to drop the required experience in Internet ser-
                vice provision.


    Other Activities

                Implemented  the  new  charging scheme together with
                new procedures for invoicing  and  feedback  to  the
                service  level.   This  is  automated to the maximum
                extent possible now.  This has cost  more  resources
                than expected but has been highly successful.


                New  tool developed for reverse delegation requests;
                automatic checking of  zones  before  forwarding  to
                person who then delegates the reverse domains.


    Discussion

                Steve  Druck  reports  that he is giving guidance to
                the NCC concerning work flow management and supports
                to expend the necessary funds for this activity.

                Ian Smith, Kees Neggers and others suggest to change
                the profile of the Deputy Manager  position  in  the
                direction  of a business manager.  Daniel Karrenberg
                agrees.


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    3.  NCC Financial Report Q1-Q3/1995

    Documents

                "Audited Accounts 1994"
                as circulated on the mailing list.

                "RIPE NCC Expenditure Planning 1995"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-exp.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-exp.txt

                "RIPE NCC Revenue 1995"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-reven.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/ncc-reven.txt


    1994

                The audited accounts  of  1994  show  a  surplus  of
                40kECU.   However  at  the end of Q1/1995 there were
                still more than 80kECU in unpaid invoices  outstand-
                ing.   At the end of Q3/1995 this was still slightly
                more than 60kECU.  The bulk of this is from LIRs  no
                longer  in  operation and sponsorships.  Conclusion:
                1994 will probably be closed with a slight loss  and
                no reserves.


    Q1/1995

                During  Q3/94 and Q1/95 there was no agreed charging
                scheme.  NCC management and TERENA agreed  that  new
                staff could not be hired on this unsecure basis.


    Q2/1995

                The situation changed drastically in a positive way.
                The charging scheme was agreed.  The funding  depen-
                dent  service levels and tighter billing and invoic-
                ing procedures started working.  At the  end  of  Q2
                there  were commitments for 700kECU and 443kECU have
                been received (more than expenditure budget).  As  a
                consequence  of  this  and  the increased workload a
                revised expenditure budget raising   total  expendi-
                ture  from  407kECU  to 529kECU has been proposed by
                NCC management and approved  by  the  committee  and
                TERENA.   The  bulk of the additional expenditure is
                going into registration services.




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    Q3/1995

                The cash flow situation continues  to  be  excellent
                and according to expectations.  Secondary indicators
                such as the commitment ratio are improving also.



    Discussion


                Olle Wallner asked what kind of  pressure  does  the
                RIPE  NCC have for people that are not paying (apart
                from  denying  them  service).   Daniel   Karrenberg
                answered  that  the  model  of two different service
                levels for is very successful.  Also  customers  now
                sign  a  formal agreement committing them to pay up.
                Kees Neggers adds that it is  clearly  expressed  in
                the  agreement  every  LIR  signs  that the customer
                agrees to pay a  financial  contribution.  There  is
                also  mentioned  that  the service can be decreased.
                Customer takes the risk that he will not receive any
                service.


                Olle  Wallner asked who picks up a cash flow deficit
                when it is established.  Steve Druck explained  that
                TERENA would be taking the risk if there would be no
                reserves inside the RIPE NCC cost  center,  this  is
                the  reason why TERENA insists on building reserves.
                We may not always be able to recover money, LIRs may
                not exist anymore.


                Ian  Smith  asked  if it is not time to pursue those
                who have not  paid  last  year.   Daniel  Karrenberg
                explained  that  TERENA  and  the RIPE NCC have done
                this as much as possible: the total went  down  from
                100  kECU  to  60 kECU.  The remaining bad debts are
                difficult  to  chase   because   they   are   mainly
                unhonoured sponsorships and registries not operating
                anymore.  He adds that  this  is  difficult  because
                there were no formal agreements in 1994.


                Ian  Smith  asked  about the scale of the safety-net
                for the RIPE NCC Daniel Karrenberg referred  to  the
                distributed documents: 592 kECU in the bank now, 529
                kECU planned  expenditure 1995, commitments for  873
                kECU  expected  by  the  end  of 1995.  We expect to
                close this year with >300kECU reserves.

                Kees Neggers expresses that a deficit  would  really
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                be  the responsibility of the contributors committee
                as the TOR states that the contributors  take  joint
                responsibility for financing the services and opera-
                tions of the RIPE NCC.

                Wim Vink asks what the  liabilities  for  1996  are.
                Daniel   Karrenberg   replies  that  the  employment
                related liabilities are 380kECU assuming the  sched-
                uled  termination of limited time contracts and ful-
                fillment of indefinite contracts for the whole year.
                He cannot say whether the last assumption is realis-
                tic.  Other liabilities  have  not  been  explicitly
                evaluated  but  are  regarded to be insignificant in
                comparison.


    4.  NCC Activity Plan and Expenditure 1996

    Documents

                "RIPE NCC Activity Plan"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-125.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-125.txt

                "RIPE NCC Activities & Expenditure 1996"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/exp96.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/exp96.txt


                The "RIPE NCC Activity Plan" defines  the activities
                of  the  RIPE  NCC  desired  by  the RIPE community.
                Based  on  that  document  the   RIPE  NCC   manager
                describes  the activities which the NCC will be able
                to carry out in 1996 and specifies   the   resources
                needed.   This  has been circulated in July as "RIPE
                NCC Activities & Expenditure 1996" The NCC Contribu-
                tors  Committee  then  produces compulsory advice to
                TERENA about  the  activities  they wish to see car-
                ried out and the resources they will commit for this
                as  per point 3.2 of the committee's terms of refer-
                ence.

                Daniel Karrenberg gives a short summary of "RIPE NCC
                Activities & Expenditure 1996": The main  challenges
                are  consolidation  of registration services and re-
                start of technical  activities  neglected  in  1995.
                All  activities  are described in the document.  Not
                all activities can be executed.  Some are no  longer
                needed.   The  total  of  the planned expenditure is
                916kECU, 61% of which will be for registration  ser-
                vices.


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    Discussion & Decisions


                Wim  Vink asked if junior hostmasters are clerically
                or technically educated and suggested  to  introduce
                different  working  levels  inside registration ser-
                vices.  Daniel Karrenberg  explained  that  this  is
                already  being implemented.  NCC will go towards two
                levels  of support staff for registration  services.
                The  new  junior  hostmasters  have a clerical back-
                ground but the hiring profile requires  an  aptitude
                to  also  learn  technical issues.  Since the purely
                clerical cases are mainly dealt with by LIRs the NCC
                staff has to have some technical insight.

                Blasco Bonito: activity 3.10 PRIDE Tool maintenance:
                This is very important for  the  European  Internet,
                the  tools  have  been developed at the RIPE NCC, we
                should take this opportunity and start new  activity
                in  this  field, it should be possible to find a way
                of  financing  this  activity.   After  some   other
                remarks  in  the  same vein there was consensus that
                the RIPE NCC has an important role in  the  develop-
                ment  of  the  European  Internet  and should take a
                proactive role to influence technical development.

                It was discussed if technical projects should become
                core activities and funded by all contributors or if
                this kind of activity should only be funded by  some
                contributors  that are interested in a certain tech-
                nical project.  It was agreed that the  activity  to
                track developments, coordinate developments and pro-
                pose larger project plans (4.4) should remain in the
                activity  plan.  The contributors can then decide if
                they all want to fund a project or  if  it  will  be
                funded  by a subset of the contributors.  It was not
                recommended to decrease one of the other  activities
                instead.   The  RIPE  NCC  should  put its energy in
                finding a deputy or business manager. The  RIPE  NCC
                needs  a  person  that  can relief Daniel Karrenberg
                from administrative tasks, so that he can again con-
                centrate on technical projects.

                The activity to keep a record of operational contact
                points has no resources  allocated  in  the  current
                plan.   Stefan Biesbroeck suggests it could be help-
                ful to provide coordination in  this  area.   Daniel
                Karrenberg  explains  that  he  regards the existing
                database objects and mailing lists as sufficient. He
                agrees  coordination  could  be  better but asks for
                suggestions of concrete  activities,  besides  main-
                taining mailing lists, the routing registry and try-
                ing to bring ISPs in contact with  each  other  when
                ____________________________________________________
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                needed.

                Steve  Druck:  activity  3.1: NCC serves larger area
                (not only Europe). What is the geographical scope of
                the  RIPE  NCC?  After some discussion it was agreed
                that an exact  specification  of  the  area  is  not
                needed  at  this  point.  It was suggested to expand
                the description  of  activity  3.1  to  say  "serves
                Europe and the surrounding area".

                Blasco  Bonito  missed activities on reverse delega-
                tion that the RIPE NCC do and suggested  to  mention
                this  activity explicitly.  It was agreed to explic-
                itly mention this task in activity 3.1.

                Blasco Bonito proposes to add resources to  activity
                3.2  in  order  to  use more modern technologies for
                searches in DB.   Daniel  Karrenberg  explains  that
                sufficient resources are included in activity 4.1.

                Kees  Neggers  proposed  different  presentation for
                activities  to  clarify  the  relation  between  the
                expenditure  budget and the activities.  Daniel Kar-
                renberg explained that the description of activities
                and  the budgeting follows ripe-125.  The correspon-
                dences  between  activities  and  budget  lines  are
                explained  in the text of "RIPE NCC Revenue & Charg-
                ing 1996".  He agreed to include a table showing the
                correspondence  between  activities and budget lines
                in the final version of that document.  He will also
                make  sure  that this is better aligned in 1997 bud-
                geting.

                Mike Norris and Juergen Rauschenbach suggested  that
                the current model of IANA - RIRs - LIRs might not be
                sufficient; maybe another level of  hierarchy  below
                the NCC could be introduced to decrease workload for
                the RIPE NCC.  Daniel Karrenberg explains that  this
                has  not  been  pursued  yet because it will make it
                more difficult to  maintain  homogeneous  assignment
                criteria  and  procedures. This has to be introduced
                carefully.  It definitely is on the agenda for  1997
                and procedures should be discussed within RIPE.

                At this point consensus is reached about the activi-
                ties.  It is agreed  to  take  the  formal  decision
                about  the  expenditure after the charging scheme is
                agreed.





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    5.  Procedures for Waiving of NCC Fees

                The committee has discussed  issue  on  the  mailing
                list.   Daniel  Karrenberg  circulated  the  list of
                options he had developed together with a short  sum-
                mary of pros and cons.


    Discussion & Decisions

                After  a  short  but  intensive discussion there was
                consensus that NCC fees should not  be  waived  fees
                for anyone anymore.  Every LIR should pay the appro-
                priate fee.  The  rationale  being  that  sufficient
                sources  are  available  for  those  in real need of
                sponsorship.  It was agreed that it is not the  task
                of the contributors as a group to sponsor networking
                activities nor is it the task of the NCC to evaluate
                requests for sponsorship.


    6.  NCC Charging Scheme 1996

    Documents

                "RIPE NCC Revenue & Charging 1996"
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/inc96.ps
                ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/inc96.txt



                Daniel  Karrenberg  summarises  "RIPE  NCC Revenue &
                Charging 1996" which proposes to continue  the  cur-
                rent  model for 1996 with a decrease of all ISP reg-
                istry fees by 25%.

                He regrets that no usage based charging scheme could
                be  prepared  because of lack of resources.  The NCC
                has looked a  different  options  (allocation  rate,
                request  rate,  time spent) but had no time to seri-
                ously keep track of the data and to prepare  differ-
                ent  models.   Also no serious feedback was received
                on  questions  to  the  committee  about  the  basic
                assumptions for the usage based charging.

                Daniel  notes  that  other  RIRs  are moving towards
                charging models similar to the one currently  imple-
                mented at the RIPE NCC.

                He  also  notes  that only slightly more than 50% of
                the expected income from sign-up fees  is  used  for
                activities  specifically directed at new registries.
                Nonetheless he proposes not to decrease sign up fees
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                because   they   form  an  effective  discouragement
                against the establishment of many  very  small  reg-
                istries  especially towards the end of the year when
                regular fees are low.

                The predicted revenue in the document is still valid
                when  corrected  with more recent numbers; there are
                slightly less registries than expected, but the com-
                mitment rate is higher.


    Discussion & Decisions

                Humberto  Lucas and Wim Vink expressed that they are
                happy with the service of the RIPE NCC but that they
                are  worried  about  the  status  of the usage based
                charging  scheme.  The  RIPE   NCC   has   financial
                resources  but  did  not  manage  to put usage based
                charging scheme in place.  Wim Vink  added  that  he
                considers  it  not acceptable that there was no time
                to prepare a usage based  charging  model  and  sug-
                gested that a consultant could have been hired.

                Daniel  Karrenberg  repeats  that he regrets this as
                well and adds that the RIPE NCC is still in a  catch
                up  mode, he re prioritised activities to serve cus-
                tomers, other activities had to  suffer  from  this.
                There  was  only  a  stable  funding  since May.  He
                explained that the situation would not be solved  by
                hiring  a  consultant.  Without sufficient data col-
                lected a consultant could not have done very much.

                Arnold Nipper described how usage based charging has
                been  implemented  at  the  DENIC: 20% equally split
                over all customers, rest is dependent on usage  (how
                many    domains   requested).    Daniel   Karrenberg
                explained registering domains is largely administra-
                tive.  The technical registration work can be highly
                automated as the NCC has recently done with  reverse
                DNS delegations. This cannot be directly compared to
                second level  evaluation  of  IP  address  requests.
                Arnold  agreed.   Daniel also reported that he knows
                the DENIC charging scheme and plans  to  incorporate
                elements  from  it  in the NCC proposals if they are
                applicable.

                Wilfried Woeber noted that it was already known  for
                two  months  that  the  NCC will not present a usage
                based charging scheme at this meeting, the  proposal
                on  the  table  was also presented.  Nobody else has
                proposed a model. He adds that any  charging  scheme
                must  produce  verifyable bills that can stand up to
                auditing by the auditors of the contributors.
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                Steve Druck said that  everything  that  is  not  as
                unstable  as  the situation at the beginning of 1995
                is acceptable for TERENA.

                After more suggestions  and  discussions  there  was
                consensus  not to re-open the issue of whether usage
                based charging should be introduced at all,  but  to
                have  the  NCC  develop  concrete  proposals  first.
                Everyone was encouraged to participate  as  much  as
                possible in the development of such models.

                The issue of the "time permitting" service level was
                raised.  Daniel Karrenberg  reports  that  currently
                this  is  equivalent to no service.  After some dis-
                cussion Kees Neggers proposed  a  change  for  1996:
                Organisations  that  have signed a contract with the
                RIPE NCC but do not pay  as  well  as  organisations
                that do not sign a contract with the RIPE NCC should
                not receive any service from the RIPE NCC.  The risk
                for the Internet is bigger with an unstable NCC than
                with some organisations that do not receive  service
                from the RIPE NCC.

                Ian  Smith  asked what the consequences were for the
                Internet when the RIPE NCC does  not  serve  people.
                Would  this  destroy the Internet regarding to CIDR?
                Would this create possible multiple address  assign-
                ments?  Daniel Karrenberg explains that the RIPE NCC
                has a de-facto monopoly for  address  space  assign-
                ments  in Europe.  He expects complaints and accusa-
                tions of building a cartel  if  we  do  not  provide
                basic  service for free. However Internet wide opin-
                ion on this issue is certainly changing in favour of
                cost recovery for all such services.  Double assign-
                ments are not likely to be caused by this move.

                After through discussion it was  agreed  to  abandon
                the "time permitting" service level. This means that
                the RIPE NCC will provide registration services only
                to  registries  in  good  standing,  i.e.  agreement
                signed and no overdue payments.

                Kees Neggers raised the question regarding the  sta-
                tus  of  Last  Resort LIRs that do not contribute to
                the RIPE NCC.  He suggested that they should  either
                be  closed  or  pay a normal fee.  Daniel Karrenberg
                agreed that Last Resort LIRs can be closed  as  most
                of  them  do not serve a useful purpose since enough
                provider registries are available  addresses  should
                be  aggregatable anyway.  It was agreed that closing
                Last Resort LIRs is  a  good  idea  and  that  those
                remaining should pay a contribution according to the
                appropriate category.
                ____________________________________________________
                                                             Page 13
                                     RIPE NCC Contributors Committee
                                                         2nd Meeting
                                                       Draft Minutes
                ____________________________________________________

                There is also consensus that the amount of the  sign
                up  fee shall not be decreased in 1996.  Even if not
                all money is spend on explicit  activities  for  new
                registries.  The rationale being that new registries
                do provide additional workload on the  RIPE  NCC  in
                the beginning.

                EUnet stated that they are still convinced that they
                pay too much in comparison with other  contributors.
                After a lively discussion it was agreed to introduce
                a  new  registry  category  dubbed  "supernational".
                Daniel  Karrenberg  raised  that  the agreement with
                EUnet  last year was made without a  decision  about
                operational  impacts.  This left some ambiguities to
                be resolved by the NCC.  He would not like  this  to
                happen  again.  Therefore the operational impacts of
                the new category need to be clearly defined.

                At this point the chair called a short break  during
                which  a  small group proposed the following defini-
                tion of the "supernational" category:

                o    Pays a fee of n times the  fee  for  the  LARGE
                     category, where n is an integer >=2.

                o    The  "maximum"  number of contact points to the
                     NCC is equal to n.

                o    The "maximum" address space  allocation  for  a
                     "supernational"  registry is n times the normal
                     maximum (currently /16) for n<5 and 1.5 times n
                     for n>=5.

                o    For  n>=5  there is a 10% discount to the total
                     fee.
                     (This was later deleted)


                Daniel Karrenberg stressed that the address  alloca-
                tion  figures  are  "maximum" values and allocations
                are still determined by documented need and  subject
                to normal allocation rules.

                Kees  Neggers  was  against  any  discount: there is
                already a discount of 25% for  everybody.   After  a
                lively  discussion it became clear that consensus on
                a discount could not be reached.  At that point  Ian
                Smith  proposed  to reduce the fee for large LIRs to
                8,500ECU as this would produce the effect desired by
                EUnet   while  being  applied  equitably.  This  was
                agreed.


                ____________________________________________________
                                                             Page 14
                                     RIPE NCC Contributors Committee
                                                         2nd Meeting
                                                       Draft Minutes
                ____________________________________________________

                So the agreed charging scheme for 1996 is now:

                  +----------------------------------------------+
                  |         Category   1995 Fee         1996 Fee |
                  +----------------------------------------------+
                  |                                              |
                  |Supernational ISP                      n*8500 |
                  |        Large ISP      12000             8500 |
                  |       Medium ISP       6000             4500 |
                  |        Small ISP       2000             1500 |
                  |                                              |
                  |       Enterprise       1000             1000 |
                  |                                              |
                  |      Last Resort          0   1500/4500/8500 |
                  |                                              |
                  |      Sign-Up Fee       2000             2000 |
                  +----------------------------------------------+

                At this point the "RIPE NCC Activities & Expenditure
                1996"  was  also formally agreed with the amendments
                agreed earlier.


    7.  Contributors Committee Terms of Reference

    Discussion


                Wim Vink raised the issue of voting procedures: Vot-
                ing   should   be   proportional  to  contributions.
                Isabelle Morel seconded that proposal.  Kess Neggers
                explained  that  the contributors committee does not
                vote, because it is a consortium, that works by con-
                sensus,  based on the money committed.  Wim Vink was
                satisfied with this.

                Wim Vink then proposed to form a  board  that  meets
                more  often than once a year, is more active and can
                provide more continuous guidance.  Daniel Karrenberg
                appreciated  this  idea.  Steve Druck argued against
                board and suggested that if somebody  is  interested
                to do some work mail can be sent to the list. If the
                issue is also interesting  for  other  people,  then
                they  can  meet.  In view of the limited time it was
                agreed that this issue would be further discussed on
                the mailing list.







                ____________________________________________________
                                                             Page 15
<ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/new-registry/ncc-co/minutes-950901.ps>

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