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AW: AW: [DENICenum-l] data point - anonymous E.164 number usage

  • To: "'Sabine Dolderer/Denic'" < >
  • From: "Lothar Reith" < >
  • Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:51:42 -0000
  • Cc:

Title: AW: AW: [DENICenum-l] data point - anonymous E.164 number usage

Hallo Frau Dolderer,


I am not a lawyer either ;-)
 
 but in my humble opinion what the court decided was that THE OBLIGATION (of a mobile service provider to store customer data for prepaid customers) IS ILLEGAL. The court did not decide whether it is illegal or not to store the data of prepaid customers, rather it pointed to the fact that due to another obligation (not to store data of customers which are not required for the purpose).

That means, that in principle it was not the mobile network operator, who did something illegal, rather it was "the state" that did something which turned out later that it was illegal, namely to put an obligation onto the mobile network operators to store data of prepaid customers. However, the state aims at fixing that problem via the upcoming new telecommunications law.


Nochmal in Deutsch:

ich bin auch kein Jurist ;-)  
Meines Erachtens hat das Gericht entschieden, dass DIE VERPFLICHTUNG (eines Mobilfunknetzbetreibers Kundendaten von Prepaid-Kunden zu erheben) ILLEGAL IST, da diese Verpflichtung einer anderen Verpflichtung zuwiderluft, die bestimmt, dass Kundendaten nur fr den Zweck der Abrechnung erhoben werden drfen) so ungefhr jedenfalls, ich schreibe aus dem Gedchtnis und zitiere hier keine Gesetzestexte.

Also, im Prinzip hat nicht der Mobilfunknetzbetreiber etwas illegales getan oder versucht, sondern "der Staat" indem er "illegalerweise" versucht hat, den Mobilfunknetzbetreiber zu etwas zu verpflichten, wozu dieser - wie sich im nachhinein herausgestellt hat - nicht verpflichtet war. Es gibt aber Bestrebungen seitens des Staates, diesen Mangel zu beheben, wie im Entwurf des neuen TKG nachzuliesen ist.



Best Regards,

Lothar Reith



-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-enum-l@localhost [mailto:owner-enum-l@localhost] Im Auftrag von Sabine Dolderer/Denic
Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Februar 2004 10:45
An: Reith, Lothar [HAHN:ND:EXCH]
Cc: enum-l@localhost enum-trial@localhost enum-trials@localhost mah@localhost
Betreff: Re: AW: [DENICenum-l] data point - anonymous E.164 number usage







Hello Mr. Reith,

actually I am not a laywer an basically you are correct that it was a mobil company filed the lawsuit but the justification of the court which reads

"Nach Auffassung des zustndigen 6. Senats sind sie nach den bisher geltenden Vorschriften anders zu behandeln als die Verbraucher, die sich mit einem Vertrag an einen Mobilfunkanbieter binden. Eine Verpflichtung der Betreiber, auch fr sie eine Kundendatei zu fhren, verstt nach Auffassung des Senats gegen das in der Verfassung garantierte Recht des Kunden auf informationelle Selbstbestimmung."

reads in my (not jurisdical founded) opinion that the storage of the data by a mobil phone operater violates basic rights of the customer.

Sabine

On 27.02.2004 10:32 "Lothar Reith" <lothar.reith@localhost wrote:
>
>
>
> Hallo Frau Dolderer,
>
> ich glaube nicht, dass ihre Aussage korrekt ist / I do not think that
your
> following statement is correct:
>
> Your wrote:
> "interestingly in Germany the federal administartive court has decided
> in

> October 2003 that the storage of customer data for prepaid customers
> is illegal."
>
> "Rather, I beleive the federal administartive court has decided in
October
2003
> that it is not illegal not to store customer data for prepaid
> customers."

>
> Also, m.E. hat das Gericht entschieden, dass es nicht illegal ist,
> keine Kundendaten fr Prepaid-Kunden zu erheben. Das ist etwas
> anderes, als zu behaupten, die Mobilfunknetzbetreiber wrden etwas
> illegales tun.
>
> Lothar Reith
> Nortel Networks Germany
>
> Hahnstr. 37-39
> 60528 Frankfurt
> Tel: +49 69 6697 1304
>
>
> -----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-enum-l@localhost [mailto:owner-enum-l@localhost] Im Auftrag
> von
Sabine
> Dolderer/Denic
> Gesendet: Freitag, 27. Februar 2004 10:19
> An: Michael Haberler
> Cc: enum-l@localhost enum-trial@localhost enum-trials@localhost
> Betreff: Re: [DENICenum-l] data point - anonymous E.164 number usage
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Michael,
>
> On 26.02.2004 20:39 Michael Haberler mah@localhost wrote:
> >
> > In the context of validation of numbers for ENUM, I have tried to
> estimate
> the
> > amount of mobile users which have totally anonymously bought a
> > prepaid
> SIM
> > card, or in other words, users of E.164 numbers which have no trace
> > at
> all in
> a
> > phonebook or other records.
> >
> > In the EU, all countries except Germany, Hungary and Italy permit
> > totally
>
> > anonymous purchase of prepaid SIM cards.
>
> interestingly in Germany the federal administartive court has decided
> in October 2003 that the storage of customer data for prepaid
> customers is illegal. More on this issue (in German only)
>
>
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/result.xhtml?url="">

> Vodafone%20Prepaid
>
http://www.bundesverwaltungsgericht.de/enid/90e62907f60c347c9d760c10ae10426f,097

> 6e07365617263685f646973706c6179436f6e7461696e6572092d0933353031/8o.htm
> l
>
> > This indicates that about 65% of the
> > EU population have access to anonymous mobile service (even in
> > Italy,
> just a
> > taxpayer code is needed which is not subscriber data but allows to
> > track
> down
> a
> > user for law enforcement - but lets leave that out for the sake of
> argument;
> in
> > France I understand a record is made for purposes of recovering a
> > lost
> SIM
> card
> > but not for proof of identity).
> >
> > There are about 400 Million mobile users in Europe, and penetration
> > of
> prepaid
> > is about 40%. Assuming that nobody registers if he doesnt have to,
> > and

> > multiplying those figures a ballpark estimate is that there are
> > about 100
>
> > Million E.164 numbers in use in Europe without any subscriber data
> > just
> through
> > the use of prepaid SIM cards.
> >
> > -Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Viele Gre
> Sabine Dolderer
>
> --
> Sabine Dolderer
> DENIC eG
> Wiesenhttenplatz 26
> D-60329 Frankfurt
>
> eMail: Sabine.Dolderer@localhost
> Fon: +49 69 27235 0
> Fax: +49 69 27235 235
>
>
Viele Gre
Sabine Dolderer

--
Sabine  Dolderer
DENIC eG
Wiesenhttenplatz 26
D-60329 Frankfurt

eMail: Sabine.Dolderer@localhost
Fon: +49 69 27235 0
Fax: +49 69 27235 235



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