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[db-wg] Not yet NWIs: Support for IDNs

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Leo Vegoda

2020-05-22 00:35:01 CET

Hi,

At RIPE 80, Denis asked for feedback on some items that are not yet
NWIs, including internationalized domain names.

My feedback is that the RIPE Database should support internationalized
e-mail addresses. The RIPE region includes a number of countries that
use a non-Latin script. Most of these countries have an IDN version of
their ccTLD and there are also a number of IDN gTLDs serving these
language communities.

People who register in those domains will want to use them for e-mail.
If an organization using an IDN is required to set up a secondary
e-mail address to register information in the RIPE Database there is a
greater risk that the published contact information will go stale as
it is not the organization's primary domain. That would undermine the
utility of the RIPE Database.

Kind regards,

Leo Vegoda

Nick Hilliard

2020-05-22 17:51:19 CET

Leo Vegoda via db-wg wrote on 21/05/2020 23:35:
> At RIPE 80, Denis asked for feedback on some items that are not yet
> NWIs, including internationalized domain names.
> 
> My feedback is that the RIPE Database should support internationalized
> e-mail addresses. The RIPE region includes a number of countries that
> use a non-Latin script. Most of these countries have an IDN version of
> their ccTLD and there are also a number of IDN gTLDs serving these
> language communities.

this looks like an offer to write a brief NWI, no? :-)

Nick

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Leo Vegoda

2020-05-22 18:01:38 CET

Hi Nick,

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 8:51 AM Nick Hilliard <nick _at_ foobar _dot_ org> wrote:
>
> Leo Vegoda via db-wg wrote on 21/05/2020 23:35:
> > At RIPE 80, Denis asked for feedback on some items that are not yet
> > NWIs, including internationalized domain names.
> >
> > My feedback is that the RIPE Database should support internationalized
> > e-mail addresses. The RIPE region includes a number of countries that
> > use a non-Latin script. Most of these countries have an IDN version of
> > their ccTLD and there are also a number of IDN gTLDs serving these
> > language communities.
>
> this looks like an offer to write a brief NWI, no? :-)

I am happy to draft some text for the problem statement and circulate
it on the list.

Kind regards,

Leo Vegoda

ripedenis@yahoo.co.uk

2020-05-22 19:51:58 CET

 
  Please do Leo :) 
cheersdenis
co-chair DB-WG
    On Friday, 22 May 2020, 18:02:07 CEST, Leo Vegoda via db-wg <db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net> wrote:  
 
 Hi Nick,

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 8:51 AM Nick Hilliard <nick _at_ foobar _dot_ org> wrote:
>
> Leo Vegoda via db-wg wrote on 21/05/2020 23:35:
> > At RIPE 80, Denis asked for feedback on some items that are not yet
> > NWIs, including internationalized domain names.
> >
> > My feedback is that the RIPE Database should support internationalized
> > e-mail addresses. The RIPE region includes a number of countries that
> > use a non-Latin script. Most of these countries have an IDN version of
> > their ccTLD and there are also a number of IDN gTLDs serving these
> > language communities.
>
> this looks like an offer to write a brief NWI, no? :-)

I am happy to draft some text for the problem statement and circulate
it on the list.

Kind regards,

Leo Vegoda

    

George Michaelson

2020-05-25 04:51:04 CET

I would like to offer strong support for this from the APNIC region.

RDAP has an ability to handle this, and I feel is rapidly becoming the
visible super-set of behaviour we need in Registry to record and
propagate information.

We still use RPSL encoded state in Whois for public record and contact
information, and we should strive to support IDN emails. They are
needed, and they are wanted.

As Leo points out, as the various jurisdictions for administration
move from ASCII to IDN domains, the utility of contact information
which remains in their second-rank domain drops significantly.

-George

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 8:35 AM Leo Vegoda via db-wg <db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> At RIPE 80, Denis asked for feedback on some items that are not yet
> NWIs, including internationalized domain names.
>
> My feedback is that the RIPE Database should support internationalized
> e-mail addresses. The RIPE region includes a number of countries that
> use a non-Latin script. Most of these countries have an IDN version of
> their ccTLD and there are also a number of IDN gTLDs serving these
> language communities.
>
> People who register in those domains will want to use them for e-mail.
> If an organization using an IDN is required to set up a secondary
> e-mail address to register information in the RIPE Database there is a
> greater risk that the published contact information will go stale as
> it is not the organization's primary domain. That would undermine the
> utility of the RIPE Database.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Leo Vegoda
>

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Leo Vegoda

2020-05-25 16:55:16 CET

Hi,

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:52 AM ripedenis--- via db-wg <db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net> wrote:
>
>
> Please do Leo :)

Here's my draft for people to kick around and improve.

Kind regards,

Leo Vegoda

The RIPE NCC service region includes countries whose language is not
written using Latin script. Languages using other scripts include (in
English alphabetical order) Arabic, Georgian, Greek, Hebrew, and
Russian. Many of the languages used in the RIPE NCC service region are
written in Latin script but use diacritical marks that fall outside
the US-ASCII character set. Internationalized Domain Names (IDNs)
support the use of these scripts in DNS.

ICANN began delegating IDN Top-Level Domains as part of a test program
in 2007 and the IETF updated the IDNA protocol in 2008 and as of mid
2020, there were over 160 IDN TLDs in the root zone.

The IETF published eight standards track RFCs on using IDNs in e-mail
in 2012 and 2013. It is reasonable that organizations communicating
with people whose preferred script is not Latin-based would want to
use an IDN domain for e-mail as well as a web presence. It is also
likely that the registry for an IDN TLD would want to use that TLD for
its e-mail addresses.

In November 2019, Ronald F. Guilmette noted that the RIPE Database
already has at least one e-mail address that makes use of Latin script
diacritical characters in the domain name.

RFC 3912 explicitly notes that the WHOIS protocol has not been
internationalized while recognizing that some servers attempt to do
so. RDAP is the protocol designed to replace WHOIS, has been deployed
by the RIPE NCC, and explicitly supports internationalization by UTF-8
encoding all queries and responses.

The RIPE community could decide to ignore EAI by trying to require
organizations to deploy a secondary e-mail address for use in the RIPE
Database. This would reduce the effectiveness of the RIPE Database as
the secondary address is less likely to be monitored and used, and so
to be effective.

Adding support for e-mail addresses that use IDNs in the RIPE Database
leads to the question of where else the RIPE NCC would need to add
internationalization support in order to provide a properly integrated
set of services. For instance, if support is added for registering
e-mail addresses, there is likely to be a demand for the names used in
"person:" and "role:" objects to be displayed as recorded on official
identity documents.

References
IANA Root Zone Procedures for Test IDN Deployment | Draft
(https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idn-iana-root-zone-procedures-2007-06-02-en)
Internationalized Domain Names in Applications (IDNA): Protocol
(https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5891)
Standards and Other Documents Related to Universal Acceptance
(https://uasg.tech/wp-content/uploads/documents/UASG006-en-digital.pdf)
Root Zone Database (https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db)
[db-wg] Internationalized domain names in the data abase?
(https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2019-November/006413.html)
WHOIS Protocol Specification (https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3912)
JSON Responses for the Registration Data Access Protocol (RDAP)
(https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7483)

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Piotr Strzyżewski

2020-05-25 22:09:36 CET

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 07:55:16AM -0700, Leo Vegoda via db-wg wrote:

Hi,

> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 10:52 AM ripedenis--- via db-wg <db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Please do Leo :)
> 
> Here's my draft for people to kick around and improve.

Thanks for this one. Two comments from my side, as a
for-internationalisation grumbler.

> The RIPE NCC service region includes countries whose language is not
> written using Latin script. Languages using other scripts include (in
> English alphabetical order) Arabic, Georgian, Greek, Hebrew, and
> Russian. Many of the languages used in the RIPE NCC service region are

The list is lacking a lot of languages that are written in Cyrillic and
its variations (like Bulgarian or Serbian Cyrillic). This should be
noted.

> Adding support for e-mail addresses that use IDNs in the RIPE Database
> leads to the question of where else the RIPE NCC would need to add
> internationalization support in order to provide a properly integrated
> set of services. For instance, if support is added for registering
> e-mail addresses, there is likely to be a demand for the names used in
> "person:" and "role:" objects to be displayed as recorded on official
> identity documents.

The demand is there for at least 10 years now. I realised that I have
moaned about that for the first time at RIPE 61 in 2010. ;-)
But please, use baby steps with that.

Cheers,
Piotr

-- 
Piotr Strzyżewski

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Leo Vegoda

2020-05-25 22:21:02 CET

Hi Piotr,

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 1:09 PM Piotr Strzyzewski
<Piotr.Strzyzewski _at_ polsl _dot_ pl> wrote:

[...]

> > The RIPE NCC service region includes countries whose language is not
> > written using Latin script. Languages using other scripts include (in
> > English alphabetical order) Arabic, Georgian, Greek, Hebrew, and
> > Russian. Many of the languages used in the RIPE NCC service region are
>
> The list is lacking a lot of languages that are written in Cyrillic and
> its variations (like Bulgarian or Serbian Cyrillic). This should be
> noted.

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to be comprehensive. I do not think a
complete list is required to make either the practical or moral case.

Kind regards,

Leo