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[ncc-services-wg] State of sanctions

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Alex Le Heux

2021-05-20 16:28:49 CET

Hi All,

The various types of sanctions and or such limits that apply to the RIPE NCC’s services have been a recurring topic for a couple years now. Recently, this seems to pop up more often though. This isn’t surprising as sanctions have become a more popular tool in the last few years.

It occurred to me that we don’t seem to have a clear overview of what the total effect is:

- Which sanctions, imposed by whom, affect the RIPE NCC’s operations and services?
- Who are the targets of these sanctions?
- Which of the RIPE NCC’s services are affected by these sanctions, for whom and in which way?

(Please read “sanctions” with a wide definition and include such things as Dutch banks looking for money laundering that was mentioned during RIPE82)

If there is a detailed overview of all this available, could the RIPE NCC publish this periodically? If not, can they start doing so?

Best regards,

Alex Le Heux
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Athina Fragkouli

2021-06-02 16:41:25 CET

RIPE NCC staff member

Dear Alex,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

As an association under Dutch law, the RIPE NCC is in principle subject to EU and Dutch sanctions regulations. Of relevance to us are financial sanctions, which consist of:

- Freezing of funds and economic resources of designated persons and entities; and
- A prohibition on making funds and economic resources available to such persons and entities.

So far, these sanctions apply to designated persons and entities listed in EU sanctions regulations for Iran and Syria. You can find the legislation (along with sanctioned persons/entities) here:

- Iran: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0267 

- Syria: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0036 

Please note that the list of designated persons and entities is regularly updated.

The RIPE NCC has reviewed its membership and has set a restriction on transfer and resource requests for three of its members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board last year in April[1], followed by an update in June[2].

In late December 2020, the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) confirmed to the RIPE NCC its understanding that IP resources are considered economic resources, as defined in the EU sanctions regulations, and must be frozen for sanctioned entities.

The MFA's primary concern is in terms of preventing the IP resources of sanctioned entities from being transferred, as well as preventing the allocation of additional resources. However, the MFA also said it believed the RIPE NCC had taken adequate steps to ensure compliance with sanctions and there was no need to deregister the IP resources of the three affected members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board in March[3].

Please also note that the RIPE NCC had requested an exemption from EU sanctions regulations. However, the MFA stated that according to the regulation, there was no legal basis to exempt IP resources from sanctions.

Regarding your last point, it might be difficult to provide a detailed overview, as anything we publish will have to be sufficiently anonymised to avoid identifying the affected members. However, we will see what we can do here, as we appreciate the value in having transparent reporting around this issue.

Kind regards,

Athina Fragkouli
Chief Legal Officer
RIPE NCC


[1] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Current Status and Executive Board Position:
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-April/001413.html 

[2] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Status Update
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-June/001427.html 

[3] RIPE NCC Sanctions Update:
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2021-March/001477.html 



> 
> From: Alex Le Heux <aleheux _at_ tucowsinc _dot_ com aleheux _at_ tucowsinc _dot_ com>>
> Subject: [ncc-services-wg] State of sanctions
> Date: 20 May 2021 at 16:28:49 CEST
> To: ncc-services-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net ncc-services-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> The various types of sanctions and or such limits that apply to the RIPE NCC’s services have been a recurring topic for a couple years now. Recently, this seems to pop up more often though. This isn’t surprising as sanctions have become a more popular tool in the last few years.
> 
> It occurred to me that we don’t seem to have a clear overview of what the total effect is:
> 
> - Which sanctions, imposed by whom, affect the RIPE NCC’s operations and services?
> - Who are the targets of these sanctions?
> - Which of the RIPE NCC’s services are affected by these sanctions, for whom and in which way?
> 
> (Please read “sanctions” with a wide definition and include such things as Dutch banks looking for money laundering that was mentioned during RIPE82)
> 
> If there is a detailed overview of all this available, could the RIPE NCC publish this periodically? If not, can they start doing so?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Alex Le Heux


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Alex Le Heux

2021-11-19 12:59:06 CET

Hi Athina,

> Apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

Likewise :)

Thank you for publishing such excellent work at https://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/how-sanctions-affect-the-ripe-ncc/

I’m happy to see that the RIPE NCC is treating this as the serious long-term threat that it is and am looking forward to the results of your coordination efforts with the other RIRs.

Best regards,

Alex Le Heux


> As an association under Dutch law, the RIPE NCC is in principle subject to EU and Dutch sanctions regulations. Of relevance to us are financial sanctions, which consist of:
> 
> - Freezing of funds and economic resources of designated persons and entities; and
> - A prohibition on making funds and economic resources available to such persons and entities.
> 
> So far, these sanctions apply to designated persons and entities listed in EU sanctions regulations for Iran and Syria. You can find the legislation (along with sanctioned persons/entities) here:
> 
> - Iran: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0267
> 
> - Syria: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0036
> 
> Please note that the list of designated persons and entities is regularly updated.
> 
> The RIPE NCC has reviewed its membership and has set a restriction on transfer and resource requests for three of its members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board last year in April[1], followed by an update in June[2].
> 
> In late December 2020, the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) confirmed to the RIPE NCC its understanding that IP resources are considered economic resources, as defined in the EU sanctions regulations, and must be frozen for sanctioned entities.
> 
> The MFA's primary concern is in terms of preventing the IP resources of sanctioned entities from being transferred, as well as preventing the allocation of additional resources. However, the MFA also said it believed the RIPE NCC had taken adequate steps to ensure compliance with sanctions and there was no need to deregister the IP resources of the three affected members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board in March[3].
> 
> Please also note that the RIPE NCC had requested an exemption from EU sanctions regulations. However, the MFA stated that according to the regulation, there was no legal basis to exempt IP resources from sanctions.
> 
> Regarding your last point, it might be difficult to provide a detailed overview, as anything we publish will have to be sufficiently anonymised to avoid identifying the affected members. However, we will see what we can do here, as we appreciate the value in having transparent reporting around this issue.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Athina Fragkouli
> Chief Legal Officer
> RIPE NCC
> 
> 
> [1] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Current Status and Executive Board Position:
> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-April/001413.html
> 
> [2] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Status Update
> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-June/001427.html
> 
> [3] RIPE NCC Sanctions Update:
> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2021-March/001477.html
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> From: Alex Le Heux <aleheux _at_ tucowsinc _dot_ com>
>> Subject: [ncc-services-wg] State of sanctions
>> Date: 20 May 2021 at 16:28:49 CEST
>> To: ncc-services-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> The various types of sanctions and or such limits that apply to the RIPE NCC’s services have been a recurring topic for a couple years now. Recently, this seems to pop up more often though. This isn’t surprising as sanctions have become a more popular tool in the last few years.
>> 
>> It occurred to me that we don’t seem to have a clear overview of what the total effect is:
>> 
>> - Which sanctions, imposed by whom, affect the RIPE NCC’s operations and services?
>> - Who are the targets of these sanctions?
>> - Which of the RIPE NCC’s services are affected by these sanctions, for whom and in which way?
>> 
>> (Please read “sanctions” with a wide definition and include such things as Dutch banks looking for money laundering that was mentioned during RIPE82)
>> 
>> If there is a detailed overview of all this available, could the RIPE NCC publish this periodically? If not, can they start doing so?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Alex Le Heux
> 
> 


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Kurt Kayser

2021-11-23 20:15:20 CET

Hello Athina,

dear ML-readers,

regarding sanction, I would like to point towards ICP-2 from ICANN:
https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/new-rirs-criteria-2012-02-25-en

/*"4) Neutrality and impartiality in relation to all interested parties,
and particularly the LIRs*/

/All organisations that receive service from the new////RIR////must be
treated equally."//
/

Due to EU-law obligatons, the LIRs in Iran and Syria and not receiving
equal services anymore.

Since RIPE NCC is unable to treat all its service recipients equally,
the RIR-definition is not fulfilled anymore.

What are the consequences now?

I consider Internet-resources as important as drinking water. How can
"we" allow to restrict these resources, due to political pressure?

Regards, Kurt


Am 19.11.21 um 12:59 schrieb Alex Le Heux:
> Hi Athina,
>
>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
> Likewise :)
>
> Thank you for publishing such excellent work athttps://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/how-sanctions-affect-the-ripe-ncc/
>
> I’m happy to see that the RIPE NCC is treating this as the serious long-term threat that it is and am looking forward to the results of your coordination efforts with the other RIRs.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Alex Le Heux
>
>
>> As an association under Dutch law, the RIPE NCC is in principle subject to EU and Dutch sanctions regulations. Of relevance to us are financial sanctions, which consist of:
>>
>> - Freezing of funds and economic resources of designated persons and entities; and
>> - A prohibition on making funds and economic resources available to such persons and entities.
>>
>> So far, these sanctions apply to designated persons and entities listed in EU sanctions regulations for Iran and Syria. You can find the legislation (along with sanctioned persons/entities) here:
>>
>> - Iran:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0267
>>
>> - Syria:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0036
>>
>> Please note that the list of designated persons and entities is regularly updated.
>>
>> The RIPE NCC has reviewed its membership and has set a restriction on transfer and resource requests for three of its members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board last year in April[1], followed by an update in June[2].
>>
>> In late December 2020, the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) confirmed to the RIPE NCC its understanding that IP resources are considered economic resources, as defined in the EU sanctions regulations, and must be frozen for sanctioned entities.
>>
>> The MFA's primary concern is in terms of preventing the IP resources of sanctioned entities from being transferred, as well as preventing the allocation of additional resources. However, the MFA also said it believed the RIPE NCC had taken adequate steps to ensure compliance with sanctions and there was no need to deregister the IP resources of the three affected members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board in March[3].
>>
>> Please also note that the RIPE NCC had requested an exemption from EU sanctions regulations. However, the MFA stated that according to the regulation, there was no legal basis to exempt IP resources from sanctions.
>>
>> Regarding your last point, it might be difficult to provide a detailed overview, as anything we publish will have to be sufficiently anonymised to avoid identifying the affected members. However, we will see what we can do here, as we appreciate the value in having transparent reporting around this issue.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Athina Fragkouli
>> Chief Legal Officer
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>>
>> [1] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Current Status and Executive Board Position:
>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-April/001413.html
>>
>> [2] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Status Update
>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-June/001427.html
>>
>> [3] RIPE NCC Sanctions Update:
>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2021-March/001477.html
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Alex Le Heux<aleheux _at_ tucowsinc _dot_ com>
>>> Subject: [ncc-services-wg] State of sanctions
>>> Date: 20 May 2021 at 16:28:49 CEST
>>> To:ncc-services-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The various types of sanctions and or such limits that apply to the RIPE NCC’s services have been a recurring topic for a couple years now. Recently, this seems to pop up more often though. This isn’t surprising as sanctions have become a more popular tool in the last few years.
>>>
>>> It occurred to me that we don’t seem to have a clear overview of what the total effect is:
>>>
>>> - Which sanctions, imposed by whom, affect the RIPE NCC’s operations and services?
>>> - Who are the targets of these sanctions?
>>> - Which of the RIPE NCC’s services are affected by these sanctions, for whom and in which way?
>>>
>>> (Please read “sanctions” with a wide definition and include such things as Dutch banks looking for money laundering that was mentioned during RIPE82)
>>>
>>> If there is a detailed overview of all this available, could the RIPE NCC publish this periodically? If not, can they start doing so?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Alex Le Heux
>>
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
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Gert Doering

2021-11-24 09:00:28 CET

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 08:15:20PM +0100, Kurt Kayser wrote:
> I consider Internet-resources as important as drinking water. How can
> "we" allow to restrict these resources, due to political pressure?

Governments have the nasty habit of showing up in people's offices
with guns if you do not follow their orders...

So if compliance is required by dutch law, what do you want the NCC to do?  

"Send Hans-Petter to Jail, to make a clear statement!"?

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
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Kurt Kayser

2021-11-24 09:11:46 CET

Gert, et al,

I suggest to submit a collective petition to generally exempt RIPE NCC
services from EU-sanctions.

There is no place for unlawful behavior, but we should also not accept
ANY EU-mandate for non-political service, which RIPE NCC provides to its
members.

If there is no way to find a solution with the EU, there is also an
option to relocate RIPE NCC into a more neutral country which does not
require to implement such sanctions.

Regards, Kurt Kayser


Am 24.11.21 um 09:00 schrieb Gert Doering:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 08:15:20PM +0100, Kurt Kayser wrote:
>> I consider Internet-resources as important as drinking water. How can
>> "we" allow to restrict these resources, due to political pressure?
> Governments have the nasty habit of showing up in people's offices
> with guns if you do not follow their orders...
>
> So if compliance is required by dutch law, what do you want the NCC to do?
>
> "Send Hans-Petter to Jail, to make a clear statement!"?
>
> Gert Doering
>          -- NetMaster
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg

Masataka Ohta

2021-11-24 10:00:08 CET

Kurt Kayser wrote:

> I consider Internet-resources as important as drinking water. How can
> "we" allow to restrict these resources, due to political pressure?

See:

	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_Water_War

Bechtel, which tried to privatize water supply in Bolivia, is a
French company, from which you can guess moral standards of
EU.

Though it is written that

	The water network that they envisioned was projected to
	provide drinking water to all the people of Cochabamba.
	This was set to double the existing coverage area and
	also introduce electrical production to more of the
	region.[9]

many of us who understand the last mile problem know
projected "double the existing coverage area" is hard,
if not impossible.

							Masataka Ohta

> 
> Regards, Kurt
> 
> 
> Am 19.11.21 um 12:59 schrieb Alex Le Heux:
>> Hi Athina,
>>
>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to you.
>> Likewise :)
>>
>> Thank you for publishing such excellent work 
>> athttps://labs.ripe.net/author/athina/how-sanctions-affect-the-ripe-ncc/
>>
>> I’m happy to see that the RIPE NCC is treating this as the serious 
>> long-term threat that it is and am looking forward to the results of 
>> your coordination efforts with the other RIRs.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Alex Le Heux
>>
>>
>>> As an association under Dutch law, the RIPE NCC is in principle 
>>> subject to EU and Dutch sanctions regulations. Of relevance to us are 
>>> financial sanctions, which consist of:
>>>
>>> - Freezing of funds and economic resources of designated persons and 
>>> entities; and
>>> - A prohibition on making funds and economic resources available to 
>>> such persons and entities.
>>>
>>> So far, these sanctions apply to designated persons and entities 
>>> listed in EU sanctions regulations for Iran and Syria. You can find 
>>> the legislation (along with sanctioned persons/entities) here:
>>>
>>> - 
>>> Iran:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0267 
>>>
>>>
>>> - 
>>> Syria:https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32012R0036 
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that the list of designated persons and entities is 
>>> regularly updated.
>>>
>>> The RIPE NCC has reviewed its membership and has set a restriction on 
>>> transfer and resource requests for three of its members. This was 
>>> announced by the RIPE NCC Executive Board last year in April[1], 
>>> followed by an update in June[2].
>>>
>>> In late December 2020, the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) 
>>> confirmed to the RIPE NCC its understanding that IP resources are 
>>> considered economic resources, as defined in the EU sanctions 
>>> regulations, and must be frozen for sanctioned entities.
>>>
>>> The MFA's primary concern is in terms of preventing the IP resources 
>>> of sanctioned entities from being transferred, as well as preventing 
>>> the allocation of additional resources. However, the MFA also said it 
>>> believed the RIPE NCC had taken adequate steps to ensure compliance 
>>> with sanctions and there was no need to deregister the IP resources 
>>> of the three affected members. This was announced by the RIPE NCC 
>>> Executive Board in March[3].
>>>
>>> Please also note that the RIPE NCC had requested an exemption from EU 
>>> sanctions regulations. However, the MFA stated that according to the 
>>> regulation, there was no legal basis to exempt IP resources from 
>>> sanctions.
>>>
>>> Regarding your last point, it might be difficult to provide a 
>>> detailed overview, as anything we publish will have to be 
>>> sufficiently anonymised to avoid identifying the affected members. 
>>> However, we will see what we can do here, as we appreciate the value 
>>> in having transparent reporting around this issue.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Athina Fragkouli
>>> Chief Legal Officer
>>> RIPE NCC
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Current Status and Executive Board 
>>> Position:
>>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-April/001413.html 
>>>
>>>
>>> [2] Sanctions and the RIPE NCC: Status Update
>>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2020-June/001427.html 
>>>
>>>
>>> [3] RIPE NCC Sanctions Update:
>>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-announce/2021-March/001477.html 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Alex Le Heux<aleheux _at_ tucowsinc _dot_ com>
>>>> Subject: [ncc-services-wg] State of sanctions
>>>> Date: 20 May 2021 at 16:28:49 CEST
>>>> To:ncc-services-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> The various types of sanctions and or such limits that apply to the 
>>>> RIPE NCC’s services have been a recurring topic for a couple years 
>>>> now. Recently, this seems to pop up more often though. This isn’t 
>>>> surprising as sanctions have become a more popular tool in the last 
>>>> few years.
>>>>
>>>> It occurred to me that we don’t seem to have a clear overview of 
>>>> what the total effect is:
>>>>
>>>> - Which sanctions, imposed by whom, affect the RIPE NCC’s operations 
>>>> and services?
>>>> - Who are the targets of these sanctions?
>>>> - Which of the RIPE NCC’s services are affected by these sanctions, 
>>>> for whom and in which way?
>>>>
>>>> (Please read “sanctions” with a wide definition and include such 
>>>> things as Dutch banks looking for money laundering that was 
>>>> mentioned during RIPE82)
>>>>
>>>> If there is a detailed overview of all this available, could the 
>>>> RIPE NCC publish this periodically? If not, can they start doing so?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Alex Le Heux
>>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or 
>> change your subscription options, please 
>> visit:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
> 


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Randy Bush

2021-11-24 14:26:56 CET

> "Send Hans-Petter to Jail, to make a clear statement!"?

as someone who has gone to jail a number of times on matters of
principle[0], if the circumstances warrant, yes.

randy

[0] the one folk seem to like the most was for sitting in at a sales
    demo for a fallout shelter that was guaranteed to work or your
    money back.

User Image

Martin Millnert

2021-11-24 22:07:00 CET

On 2021-11-24, at 09:11:46, Kurt Kayser wrote:
>    If there is no way to find a solution with the EU, there is also an
>    option to relocate RIPE NCC into a more neutral country which does not
>    require to implement such sanctions.

That, or fork off the MENA service region into a new RIR in a neutral and
stable jurisdiction, and transfer the relevant resources there.

I agree that weaponising internet resources is really dumb and simply
accepting it is a weak and not solidaric response to those affected.

-- 
Martin Millnert
BrainMill AB
https://www.brainmill.com