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Open House Charging Scheme 2024 Consultation Chat

Ryan Braakhuis  2023-03-21T12:27:51Z
Hey Everyone.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T12:28:22Z

brenac  2023-03-21T12:32:25Z
hi !

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T12:33:00Z
Good day :)

Michel  2023-03-21T12:33:32Z

Ryan Braakhuis  2023-03-21T12:34:09Z
how are we all today :) (and greetings from Australia)

jdpauget  2023-03-21T12:35:25Z

sdy (Dmitry)  2023-03-21T12:46:42Z
Hi Everyone

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T12:50:04Z
Hello all !

randy  2023-03-21T12:52:18Z
grump (6am)

Ryan Braakhuis  2023-03-21T12:53:47Z
cranky (11:23pm) :-P

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T12:54:16Z
Hello everyone! Good to see you here.

randy  2023-03-21T12:54:38Z
hi fergal

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T12:54:59Z
Hey Randy. Glad you could make it. Hope you managed to get some strong coffee brewing.

vincent  2023-03-21T12:55:22Z
Hello everyone :)

randy  2023-03-21T12:55:45Z
"already half way through first cuppa.  PAM also starts now, so it's a morning of video"

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T12:56:06Z
Howdy Clement Cavadore. Happy to see some French representatives :D

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T12:56:55Z
Hi Hugo ! Eheh, that's an important topic, IMHO :)

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T12:57:01Z

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T12:57:09Z
Bonjour Fergal !

SergeyM  2023-03-21T12:58:53Z

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T12:59:13Z
Bonjour Fergal :)

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T12:59:25Z
we do

Job Snijders  2023-03-21T12:59:26Z
Yes, can hear!

SergeyM  2023-03-21T12:59:26Z

Andre@BCIX  2023-03-21T12:59:27Z

jdpauget  2023-03-21T12:59:28Z

Ryan Braakhuis  2023-03-21T12:59:29Z

Željan  2023-03-21T12:59:32Z

Raymond Jetten  2023-03-21T13:00:15Z
Hello All

SergeyM  2023-03-21T13:00:22Z
Trying to join with mic and video and no luck. Tried with 3 browsers. :(

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:00:55Z
Hi :)

Raymond Jetten  2023-03-21T13:01:01Z
@SertgeyM didnt the brwoser ask for permissions ?

SergeyM  2023-03-21T13:01:10Z

Piotr Strzyżewski  2023-03-21T13:01:12Z

Raymond Jetten  2023-03-21T13:01:18Z

Ondrej Filip  2023-03-21T13:01:37Z

Hank  2023-03-21T13:03:47Z
Good afternoon

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:04:04Z
"""March 2024"" hmm"

mneuckens  2023-03-21T13:04:21Z

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:04:27Z
"I assume that is supposed to say ""March 2023"""

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T13:06:39Z
Good spot, Cynthia. We'll fix before we upload the slides on the website.

dk379  2023-03-21T13:09:29Z
works for me in safari on ipad… why don’t just use google meet if we pretty much mandate chrome derivates anyway :)

JoB  2023-03-21T13:13:51Z
We do? [FF on Fedora]

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T13:14:37Z
"typo on prev. slide, bottom right, ""idependant"" instead of ""independant"" @Fergal"

vincent  2023-03-21T13:15:04Z
well safara has a lots of problem since apple doesn't like to follow standards, but FF is fine :)

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T13:15:08Z
Merci, Hugo.

dk379  2023-03-21T13:16:14Z
let us not bash apple here — at least they mandate ipv6 for all apps on iOS

vincent  2023-03-21T13:16:46Z
true they switched to zsh

dk379  2023-03-21T13:18:07Z
My biggest concern is that we feel that some things (resources) can be charged and some actions (transfers) but sponsors do not get discounts as they shoulder some work that ncc would do otherwise

Lee Stubbs  2023-03-21T13:19:01Z
Charging for ASNs is going to turn a lot of newcomers of the networking space away.

Lee Stubbs  2023-03-21T13:19:16Z
It is how a lot of new people come into the space and learn BGP

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:19:34Z
Note that with sanctions screening, the workload on the RIPE NCC for sponsored holders has increased significantly.

JC  2023-03-21T13:19:37Z
learning BGP can be acheived with private ASNs also

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T13:19:55Z
I do not see it as a good or bad thing, they have resources and communities like DN42 to learn about BGP and related networking

Lee Stubbs  2023-03-21T13:20:16Z
Very true, but learning with results is much more rewarding

dk379  2023-03-21T13:20:20Z
If we think of ncc as profit center it’s fine, but if we think as of cost center (work that should be decreased) than anything that reduces work should be supported by fee reduction (less open LIRs: less requests; more sponsored resources managed by LIRs; more ipv6)

Pierre-Henry Muller  2023-03-21T13:20:25Z
salut @Clement Cavadore

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T13:21:19Z
Bien le bonjour, Pierre-Henry :-)

JC  2023-03-21T13:21:25Z
"if rewarding results = pollute databases with ""learning"" stuff i think we can make ASNs cost 1000 EUR/year"

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:21:37Z
It's not a hostile take over if it's in the interest of member majority.

ruben  2023-03-21T13:22:16Z
I think that was referring to some recent developments in other RIRs.

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T13:23:30Z
We need more personal ASN's to generate new network engineers, therefore I prefer to keep ASN's free of a recurring charge.

Lee Stubbs  2023-03-21T13:23:47Z

Lee Stubbs  2023-03-21T13:23:57Z
but it needs to be obtainable

Michel  2023-03-21T13:24:04Z
before talking about how to reach the budget, could we talk about what the budget is allocated to and how to reduce it?

JC  2023-03-21T13:24:25Z
amazingly network engineers were generated before, even without every network engineer having their own ASN

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:24:34Z
I agree Michael, this was initially billed to us as something required because they are concerned about getting less money due to LIRs merging

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:24:52Z
I question the merit of any change at all

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:25:27Z
The budget discussion happens at the autumn GM.

Ryan Braakhuis  2023-03-21T13:26:11Z
I would more propose a ORG Creation charge of say 20eur one-time, that would then offset the charges for time etc that the NCC has to do in regards to Due Diligence, and also stop the DB from been filled with junk data. of course, grandfathering in current, but that would then keep ASN availability for those that are wanting to become net eng. and with also adding an extra charge for 16bit requests, of that 50eur per year, as anybody that should need one now, (for whatever purpose) would already have one.

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:26:39Z
Correct I'm aware that budget discussions will happen then, but I feel the budget, and how we charge are heavily connected

ruben  2023-03-21T13:28:03Z

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:28:07Z
Charging for a basic 'membership', with a mostly flat fee that includes most services is both viable and practical if RIPE is being practical with the budget

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:28:18Z
The mechanism is that if we collect more money than we spend, then there is a vote at the autumn GM to refund the surplus or add it to the reserves.

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T13:28:49Z
Ryan, I agree, not only for orgs which are validated by the NCC ie. not orgs with only PA inetnum space.

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T13:29:25Z
*but only for...

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:29:58Z
Considering RIPE has over twice the amount of employees, and more overhead than any other RIR in the world I find it very intriguing that we're discussing changes to how we charge members instead of discussing ways to reduce the budget as LIR revenue drops due to members having more than one LIR

CKA  2023-03-21T13:31:38Z
Daniel > The RIPE budget size will not affect HOW the charges are distributed, only the size. If you change every number in the proposals as a percentage of the budget, the actual budget becomes totally irrelevant.

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:33:45Z
The RIPE NCC is more than an RIR and has been since the beginning.

dk379  2023-03-21T13:34:17Z
The sanctions check is only appropriate when new members join or merge; why then we are concerned with sanctions anywhere but in joining and merge fees?

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T13:34:55Z
Fully agree with DOG-RIPE: It's quite hard to justify why *independent* resources count on the LIR score.

dk379  2023-03-21T13:35:13Z
(The member may be sanctioned not the IP/AS)

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:35:22Z
"CKA , RIPE Specifically stated ""One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. """

Pierre-Henry Muller  2023-03-21T13:35:46Z
RIR services must remain RIR services, if other services are proposed, those who use them will have to pay for those services. It is like a domain registry charging its domain customers to fund website or server hosting.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:35:50Z
DIG this sounds like a business model problem with your entity.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:35:58Z

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T13:37:29Z
ServeByte: is one of the primary places for sponsoring personal ASN's

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:37:39Z
"So while yes, regardless of the charging scheme we may pay more or less based on each model, the whole push for this is 1000% budget centric. They continued to state ""This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. """

Alex Buch  2023-03-21T13:37:40Z
But how the RIPE NCC survived in 2020 without these 2021 fees?

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:37:58Z
So I don't see how we can say this is *not* directly related to the budget and potential income

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:38:12Z
RIPE said so themselves directly when bringing this proposal to the mailing list

Alex Buch  2023-03-21T13:38:35Z
I also agree that we can't discuss the changes without taking into account the budget ad trying to cut it first

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:39:08Z
For me this is the typical cart before the horse. I personally will reject any decision on any pricing change until an actual budget review is conducted.

CKA  2023-03-21T13:39:16Z
DAniel > It's still a matter of HOW to distribute the charges, not how large they should be. Whatever charging scheme ends up being accepted at the GM, the actual charge will go up and down with the budget. The reason for reconsidering the scheme, may very well be the expected budget, but a smaller budget, does not automatically mean that a different model for splitting the share, is better or worse.

sdy (Dmitriy)  2023-03-21T13:39:51Z
How to send jpeg

dk379  2023-03-21T13:39:53Z
Why budget discussion is relevant to fees?

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:39:58Z
Fergal, I have an additional comment later as well

CKA  2023-03-21T13:40:13Z
The charging scheme decide how big a percentage I pay of the total budget, and that's all that's relevant.

Pierre-Henry Muller  2023-03-21T13:40:20Z
"The entities that have opened a lot of accounts are only a transitional period, it was known to be temporary. If the expenditure budget was based on these revenues, there is a management problem.

Also when the merge is done on the accounts (if it is done), it brings back a stable situation from before the multiple account game."

dk379  2023-03-21T13:41:12Z
if we increase fees sharply and then have a fair distribution of excess with same refund per member, those members who has their fees increased would be at disadvantage; unless we express refunds in proportion of fees paid.

Pierre-Henry Muller  2023-03-21T13:41:40Z
We have to talk about expenditure budgets before we talk about inputs.

Alex Buch  2023-03-21T13:41:53Z
The other important thing - if the RIPE NCC have issues with processing fees from the sanctioned countries (Syria, Iran, Russia, Ukraine) for just annual payment, how are you planning to manage the intra-year payments for transfers, M&A and so on? It would made almost impossible to proceed such actions for the members from these countries

CKA  2023-03-21T13:42:09Z
So we CAN discuss how many percentages each LIR pays, and what decides it, without discussing the budget, the actual number of EUR you end up paying, however, depends on the budget.

dk379  2023-03-21T13:44:27Z
Definitely— but if refunds are fixed then ratio is not known until refunds are done

brenac  2023-03-21T13:44:32Z
+1 Alex Buch

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T13:46:55Z
enjoy the cookies Hans :D

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T13:51:10Z
We are already at the point with low voter turnout, that a small minority can rule the GM.

Wessel Sandkuijl  2023-03-21T13:51:21Z
HPH: Consider that a lot of end users do not want to become members because they rely on sponsoring LIR's to have knowledge on policy/ripe database/technical details around managing IP space. In our experience end users are not at all concerned by fees but rather the (absence of) internal knowledge around managing allocations and RIPE in general.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:51:36Z
Asbjørn, indeed, it is pretty scary

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:52:28Z
replace scary with fair

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:54:27Z
not sure how that is relevant

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:54:36Z
I am not saying it is unfair, just saying it is scary

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:55:19Z
I don't understand how a majority vote by members would be scary, unless a LIR already has an unfair share.

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:55:45Z
One member has one vote.

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T13:55:46Z
Ground control to Major Tom

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:55:59Z
what is scary is how the GM participation is so low

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:56:01Z
Some members have multiple LIRs

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T13:56:06Z
usually it is about 10% I think?

Daniel  2023-03-21T13:56:11Z
less than 10%

Hans Petter Holen, RIPE NCC  2023-03-21T13:57:41Z
it increased significantly when we introduced electronic voting

ServeByte  2023-03-21T13:58:10Z
I see, sorry I misunderstood you. I think because most people have very little interest in the voting subject. This is one of the largest subject matters ever discussed. Not only in terms of future costs, but it could reflect directly on the ownership of resources and the future distribution of locked-up resources that would otherwise never be transferred or recycled.

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T13:58:20Z
Good point Cynthia !

Ondrej Filip  2023-03-21T13:58:51Z
Good point.

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T14:00:12Z
Really, PI/ASN resources count contribution to category is really unfair.

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T14:00:28Z
single cost for independent resources (incl ASN) would be more fair.

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T14:01:07Z

Tom  2023-03-21T14:01:10Z
Sorry reloaded a couple of times and switched from laptop to mobile and back, think the audio should work now.

JC  2023-03-21T14:01:29Z
PI/ASN resources are not toys, it might seem unfair but if your LIR has a lot of customers that operate large enough networks to need multihoming you can charge them more

dk379  2023-03-21T14:03:03Z
"When adding a single PI changes your category and doubles your fee, it’s harder to do..  although it’s mostly concern for small members"

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:03:21Z
I have to agree with JC here. If you want to play with BGP, use private AS numbers. In my country is costs A LOT for an ISP who will peer with you over BGP. Yet no funds for an AS allocation? hmm

dk379  2023-03-21T14:06:36Z
Totally distorted sound (frequency shifted up)

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:06:53Z
sound is fine for me

Raymond Jetten  2023-03-21T14:07:16Z
video and audio fine, please try to rejoin ?

Bogdan  2023-03-21T14:07:42Z
sound is fine, the proposals are not :)

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:07:50Z
JC, ServeByte, we can't ignore the truth that a lot of the younger people getting into networking is due to how cheap/easy it is to get personal ASNs. We already have an issue with diversity in the space and at least I want to try to do things that increase diversity and get more young people into the space.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:08:10Z
if that means subsidizing hobby projects, then that is what I think we have to do

JC  2023-03-21T14:09:15Z
Cynthia, ASNs are not candy - young people can use both 16 and 32bit PRIVATE ASNs with RFC1918 addresses for learning purposes.

JC  2023-03-21T14:10:11Z
"public ASNs and IPs are for ""adults"" with physical connections not 5$ VMs"

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T14:10:12Z
Private ASN's doesn't work on IXP's

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:10:20Z
as others have said, it is a lot more rewarding to do it on the actual internet.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:10:37Z
You need a /24 to use an ASN. Unless you only do IPv6. Sure, maybe in the future. As of today, please don't complain about a minor yearly fee for an AS number and pretend like the IPv4 is free.

Asbjørn (dk.fiberby)  2023-03-21T14:10:38Z
and is a mess with anycast

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:11:01Z
ServeByte, there are many of these personal ASNs with only IPv6 space

ruben  2023-03-21T14:11:38Z
There are a lot of ASNs on v6 only. Probably looking at >2k or more of those active.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:11:42Z
That's because they're all IPv6 tunnels because the major ISPs all have millions of IPv4 they will never use.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:11:47Z
Getting IPv6 at home was one of the major things I wanted to achieve when I started out

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:12:07Z
They have no interest in ever implementing IPv6 for their customers because they won't run out of IPv4 ever.

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:12:59Z
So again... make the big ISPs pay for their allocations and maybe we'll see IPv6 actually in use over IPv4 in my lifetime.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:13:00Z
Yeah, which is why this is a very legitimate reason to do it with actual public address space

ruben  2023-03-21T14:13:08Z
And yet should we fall for the large ISP trap and punish those who wish to use and develop v6?

JC  2023-03-21T14:13:25Z
250 new young network engineers per month sounds like an amazing number, hopefully there will be enough jobs for them LoL

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:13:27Z
because they might just have IPv4 at home and can get IPv6 with their own ASN and PI v6

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:14:31Z
Sorry but getting an ASN doesn't give you a magic hat to make you a network engineer. This is quite a frail argument.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:14:47Z
But it gets many people more interested in learning more

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:14:52Z
that was how I started out

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:16:06Z
I would likely not be here if it wasn't for that

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T14:17:48Z
"I believe small ASNs on v6 only are a good thing, most v6 users are tiny companies or natural persons wishing to see more v6 in the world deployed, while ISPs are sitting on lots of /16s v4 and barely think of ever providing v6. I personally became LIR to try making access to v6 resources easier for people, too - but I doubt paying for sponsored ASNs would be good for the world. sure it would clean a lot of the DMZ, but it also reduces a lot the chances of seeing an actual future in v6 use, as most people who could afford paying a lot of fees would anyway rather buy v4 /24s and bigger prefixes as its ""easier"" to be compatible. I think the diversity in ASNs and type of people running ASNs is a good thing for v6 adoption. But I want to make it clear that as LIRs we should also gatekeep the access to ASNs to prevent having ASNs ran by people who know literally nothing. Sure we cannot really ""filter"" as its a commercial agreement, but we should be the people making sure the DMZ is not the far-west"

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T14:18:04Z
(sorry for the big wall of text i kept bouncing on messages being posted)

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:18:12Z
"I think there's a lot of ""free AS providers"" that are in these debates, like you Cynthia. In reality you're a minority with a large voice."

JC  2023-03-21T14:18:31Z
you can get IPv6 at home via tunnels from tunnelbrokers such as HE, you don't need an ASN for that. or just get service from a ISP that has v6 and forget about tunneling.

Lachlan Roche  2023-03-21T14:19:17Z
Right, but I think having an ASN helps to actually teach people networking in a way. However, the thing I find is that people get ASNs and then eventually abandon them.

dk379  2023-03-21T14:19:39Z
You say it like home users have big choice.

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T14:19:58Z
@[Lachlan Roche] it is also the job of the sponsoring LIR to ensure resources they sponsor are still used and/or that the end user is still reachable and up-to-date in the RIPE database

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:20:56Z
Hugo, they don't. They are arguing that their AS numbers with a once-off fee is unsustainable for them.

dk379  2023-03-21T14:21:02Z
So the NCC loses money on those users to not be LIRs. Removing ability to sponsor would make then

JC  2023-03-21T14:21:11Z
it's not feasible to have one ASN for every person on earth, just play around with private ones. way cheaper, doesn't pollute IRRs, PeeringDB, the GRT etc

ServeByte  2023-03-21T14:21:14Z
How are they going to maintain the AS numbers with a once-off fee? Answer: they don't.

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:21:17Z
JC, when I started out I believe that HE Tunnelbroker was the only option and I tried using it but it didn't work due to geolocation issues.

dk379  2023-03-21T14:21:23Z
members and as such lower fees for others

Lachlan Roche  2023-03-21T14:29:41Z
Perhaps would it make sense to lower membership fees for those who return unused IP space?

Cynthia Revström  2023-03-21T14:30:58Z
Thank you for holding this session :)

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T14:31:03Z
"maybe it could be distinguished for waiting list between ""regular waiting list"" and some sort of V4 waiting list where the /24 prefix would not be transferable to a third-party ? (could still be for legal changes etc but not to a non-related entity). I know it is easier said than done, but it could make it more fair for people who just want /24 prefixes for their network and people who just plan on hoarding?"

S  2023-03-21T14:31:04Z
Thank you!

sdy (Dmitriy)  2023-03-21T14:31:05Z
Goodby for all!

vincent  2023-03-21T14:31:07Z
ty :)

Piotr Strzyżewski  2023-03-21T14:31:07Z
Many thanks!

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T14:31:09Z
Thanks for the session

Mneeb  2023-03-21T14:31:10Z
thank you

Matt  2023-03-21T14:31:10Z
Thank you! :)

Ondrej Filip  2023-03-21T14:31:12Z
Thank you all1

Jori Vanneste  2023-03-21T14:31:14Z
Thanks for the discussion! :)

Marco Schmidt  2023-03-21T14:31:19Z

Sebastien Brossier  2023-03-21T14:31:19Z
Thank you

Zappie  2023-03-21T14:31:21Z

Clement Cavadore  2023-03-21T14:31:22Z
hopefully model will evolve, have a nice end of week too !

Hugo REGIBO  2023-03-21T14:31:23Z
Thank you for the meeting, Fergal / Simon / Hans :)

ruben  2023-03-21T14:31:28Z
Thank you and bye :)

Lachlan Roche  2023-03-21T14:31:40Z
thank you :)

neitzel  2023-03-21T14:31:40Z

Fergal Cunningham  2023-03-21T14:31:49Z
Thank you all. Really great to hear from you and see you joining!