[members-discuss] IPv4 - Charging Won't Help You

>> IP Market = resource < demand (charging won’t help)
That's simply not true, it's economy 101 basic stuff: demand adjusts based
on price. If the price is higher, the demand will fall until it's equal to
demand.

Consider the case of large telecom that have an unique IP for every
telephone line. A higher price is the only motivation that will encourage
them to switch their private VOIP network to IPv6. At that higher
price-point their transition will be feasible for them, why still being
easily affordable by businesses which need a IPv4 for their website or
other critical resources.

Resource depletion shouldn't prevent an efficient allocation of scarcity.
Vlad


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Tony Turner <tony.turner at nodemax.com>wrote:

>
>
> Yep we are going for IPv6, we are applying over Xmas. We are not bothered
> by lack of IPv4. We plan around it.
>
>
>
> All I was saying is charging for each IP’s won’t work where as it does in
> the telecoms market.
>
>
>
> IP Market = resource < demand (charging won’t help)
>
> Telecoms Phone Numbers =  resource > than demand (charging will help)
>
>
>
> So you can charge in telecoms market not in IP market , it won’t make a
> difference.
>
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:
> members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Joao Silveira
> *Sent:* 16 December 2013 11:48
> *To:* members-discuss at ripe.net
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Complaints against LIRs ignored by NCC
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> Why not use IPv6. The IPv4 market will go down definitively.
>
> Hugs,
>
> ---
>
> Joao Silveira
>
> [image: logo]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:34:29 -0000, Tony Turner wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> A Fee for a Resource that is significantly smaller than Demand won’t work
> .... all it will do is create another market for those with extra IP’s ..
>
>
>
> What do other markets do when there is a shortage .....  it is not
> guaranteed to work in this market ....
>
>
>
> Never posted on here but here is my 2 pence worth so bear with me ...
>
>
>
> Our experience from a telecommunications view is interesting. We had been
> issued by Ofcom 600 x 10,000 blocks of phone numbers, some ranges were
> issued in 1K blocks where there was shortage in a town, but if not 10,000
> blocks, our mobile range is 100,000
>
>
>
> Now we never need 10K blocks for all towns, yes London but not Maldon ....
> 1K would have been fine.
>
>
>
> Now Ofcom have never charged for phone numbers historically, but that has
> all started to change due to a shortage
>
> and of course lack of Government funding.
>
>
>
> First they went to 1K blocks as numbers for a town became scarce....
>
>
>
> Now they are starting to charge for numbers in the towns which they say
> are a conservation area where numbers are scarce.
>
>
>
> They charge 10p per number per year, whether allocated to a customer or
> not.
>
>
>
> Now we have given back *promptly* 4 million phone numbers some big mobile
> companies have also dumped the numbers and services on some of those
> numbers like broadband VOIP some mobile operators cut the service.
>
>
>
> Phone numbers I am sure will never run out so companies not using them
> will give them back as they know, “hey we can get some more”.
>
>
>
> With IP’s that’s different, I think whatever happens IPV4 will run out (or
> has) whatever approach is taken. The big boys know this and can afford to
> keep them whatever is charged for them so I doubt the big telcos/ISP’s will
> ever give them back. Irrespective of a charge.
>
>
>
> The only IP’s you may get back if they are charged for is from small
> operators ... but as IP’s are so scarce I even doubt these will be given
> back as companies can rent them out as they are a scarce resource with a
> demand greater than supply unlike UK phone numbers where the demand is less
> than supply but phone numbers where just allocated on blocks too large (so
> mis -managed).
>
>
>
> You may think great they will rent them out, I doubt the terms of such
> will make you smile ..
>
>
>
> So charging won’t necessarily work.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [
> mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>]
> *On Behalf Of *Oliver Bryssau
> *Sent:* 16 December 2013 09:59
> *To:* RIPE
> *Cc:* members-discuss at ripe.net
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Complaints against LIRs ignored by NCC
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I think that post hits the nail on the head perfectly.
>
> I guess if so many of us feel this way we should investigate the Ripe
> framework to see if there is something that can be done to create positive
> change.
>
> This would be a great short/medium term solution however we all must look
> to support ipv6 natively.
>
> Merry Christmas,
> Oliver
>
> On 16 Dec 2013 09:39, "RIPE" <ripe at centronet.cz> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> everyone who says "IPv4 is gone" is living in his/her dreams, denying
> reality and IPv4 market (and those mentioned average 2 letters/IPv4
> requests per day). It may be true for some, but it obviously isn't for
> others, no matter reasons. While I understand IPv6 propagation, I don't
> think that punishing/discriminating small IPv4 holders in need for a few
> more IPs is right. Actually, releasing those big unused IPv4 blocks might
> have much better impact for IPv6 development, while the small ones would
> appreciate "a few more C" and it may even be enought for a few more
> months/years this way.
>
> While I must admit I'm not sure how to do this, some fee for IP addresses
> sounds like natural way. So I must agree, if you are happy IPv6 user who
> had no problems to move from IPv4 (or started at IPv6 directly) and
>  doesn't need IPv4 addresses anymore, just return them all and you can stop
> to care about it and less lucky us. You may even have it cheaper. Saying
> that you don't need IPv4 because you have IPv6 already sounds like "I don't
> have this problem so I don't want/need it to be solved and  I don't care
> about others" to me. Or in worse case, it may even be "I like current state
> because I own those big blocks and I have profit from it". Nothing personal
> here, I wasn't screening anyone and  I don't accuse anyone. Just annoyed
> from all those "IPv6 solves everything" announcers who are, at same time,
> so much against returning of any unused IPv4 space. Thanks for your
> understanding.
>
>
> Merry Christmas to everyone
>
> Matej Vavrousek
> CentroNet, a.s.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:
> members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Andrea Cocito
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:42 PM
> To: Gert Doering
> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Complaints against LIRs ignored by NCC
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Gert Doering <gert at space.net> wrote:
> > IPv4 is *gone*, get over it.  No matter of discussion here or elsewhere
> > will bring back IPv4 in quantities needed to "last forever", so all you
> > are doing is postponing the inevitable, and burning lots of effort and
> > money in the denial phase.
>
> Right, then if the fee scheme is changed in that way there will be no
> problem for LIRs who have millions of IPv4 addresses allocated to release
> them and save money :)
>
> A.
>
>
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