Re: [anti-spam-wg] Fwd: Re: Re: NCC#2007083003 Fwd: DELIVERY FAILURE:
To: apwg-chairs@localhost, address-policy-wg@localhost, anti-spam-wg@localhost
From: der Mouse mouse@localhost
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:40:40 -0400 (EDT)
>> In any case, my "proposal" is that ICANN impose responsibility along
>> with authority: as a simple example (restricted just to address
>> space assignment), it could establish an AUP that RIRs would have to
>> comply with to keep their assigned space - and then enforce it (this
>> step is not optional, or the fix won't actually fix anything).
> Are you suggesting that ICANN should assume the regulatory role that
> currently sits with sovereign nations?
What regulatory role is that? The one that RIPE is assuming in
imposing an AUP on its sub-assignees (if my memory of their claim is
accurate)? The one that (almost) every ISP in the world assumes in
imposing an AUP on its customers?
>> Sitting on their thumbs waiting for someone else to solve the
>> problem, which is what I see them doing, is *not* a responsible
>> thing for ICANN/IANA to do here. If this is being done because
>> that's what the procedures in place call for, then the procedures
>> themselves are broken and need to be fixed.
> Please let me know where I can get a copy of the document authorising
> IANA to regulate in this area.
Why do you need one? IANA has the authority to delegate address space
(again, restricting the discussion to just address space for ease of
language); where does it get that from? What compels it to so delegate
without an AUP attached?
If there is such a thing, then that thing is (part of) the problem and
needs to be fixed before we can have a non-broken Internet.
> A top down approach is unlikely to work without effective enforcement
Oh, certainly. The AUPs I'm speaking of would have to be enforced, or
they won't help anything.
> As you'd like to see an AUP it might be helpful to give us a general
> idea of what you'd like to see in it and what you'd like to see done
> when it is not followed. At the moment I'm not sure what you want
> and that makes it difficult to draft a policy proposal.
As I remarked upthread, I'm not a policy author. But there are plenty
of AUPs around to look at as examples; as I also remarked upthread, I
think RIPE told me they have one that they impose, de-jure at least, on
their sub-assignees; that might be a reasonable place to start. Most
ISPs have one; looking at a bunch of them would be a reasonable source
of ideas too. Looking back to the days when there was an effective
authority at the top in the form of the NSF and (earlier) DARPA and
looking at the AUPs they had might give some ideas - though you'd have
substantial sections to rip out.
As for penalties, I don't know what would be most reasonable.
Penultimately, there's deassigning of the address space in question;
ultimately, revoking of all assignments and the "charter", if you will,
as RIR. But those would necessarily be last-resort steps; I'm not sure
what would be appropriate as intermediate sanctions. Maybe look at
what ISPs do for problem customers?
All your talk about bottom-up policy is, I think, missing something
important. It seems to be treating the net as a democracy. Internet
governance has never been democratic. Perhaps it would be better if it
were, perhaps not - but it isn't; it is, and always has been,
dictatorial. The dictators have been benevolent, laissez-faire, and
relatively willing to listen to the populace, so it hasn't felt much
like a dictatorship, but that's what it's been. And that could be
where the problem is coming from: it looks to me as though you're
treating the net like a dictatorship when it comes to authority, but
like a democracy when it comes to responsibility.
In any case, once again, why are you asking me to do your work for you?
It's your *job* there, you at ICANN and the IANA, to deal with the
difficult issues of Internet governance; go do your job! (What makes
me think you're not? All the problems that have arisen under - and, I
believe, from - your regime, and the nothing I see being done to deal
Or don't, and watch the slide downhill continue.
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