[anti-abuse-wg] Reporting Fraud

Richard,

>I got it from you, and Gert has just explained the thinking better than
I ever could: you told me (and I accept) that whatever is proposed has
to be proposed by *someone*.  A natural person.  To me that implies a
member of a working-group.  But yes, if someone unconnected with RIPE
walked in and proposed a policy I guess it would technically meet the
requirements.  If they weren't a member of a working-group when they
proposed the policy they would very rapidly need to become a member,
otherwise they could not support the case for adoption of the proposal.

Right, we have a slight cross purpose here. When I hear the word "member" I automatically hear it as
"RIPE NCC member". You meant it in the sense of "Member of the RIPE community". Perhaps it would be
better if we both were a little clearer. As Gert has pointed out, this makes us both right.

>So all I am willing to say here is that the tone of feedback *from the
NCC* was unhelpful, and issues raised at that meeting which one might
reasonably expect to have been followed-up by the NCC since that meeting,
have not been.

I was under the impression that what was taken away from the meeting was that the RIPE NCC
is bound by policy as passed by the RIPE community and that it was at present adhering strictly
to that policy. We suggested that if you were unhappy with that policy then the correct route
to follow was to change it by making a policy proposal in accordance with the PDP. You were
offered help in formulating that proposal. The RIPE NCC is waiting for you to start the process
of proposing a change in procedure. To my knowledge no such proposal has been received.

>Again, this does not match the impression I formed on reading the pages
that you kindly pointed me to.  I quote from RIPE Document 470:

"In some cases a proposal may need more than one WG's input.  In such
cases, before the proposal is published, the relevant WG Chairs will
discuss the situation and decide the WG most suited to discussion of
the proposal"

Yes, but this normally takes place after the policy is proposed. We haven't seen a proposal yet.
The normal process is for the proposer to talk to the RIPE NCC who will suggest a suitable
WG which is where the proposal will initially appear. If this group decides that they are an unsuitable 
vehicle for the proposal then they will negotiate with another WG to take it on. Until we see your proposal
we can't decide where it should go.

>I was under the impression that the BCP document (RIPE-409) had the
status of a policy.  If that is not so, then your point is valid.
And it is certainly high time this group DID produce some policy.

No, as has been pointed out by Brian, this isn't really a policy but a BCP document
produced before the PDP existed.

>However since you are reading this thread, and given your extensive
knowledge of BGP and routing, would you like to comment on the point
that gave rise to it, namely the fraudulent misuse of RIPE resources?

I would repeat what I said higher up in this reply. That the RIPE NCC is following policy
as formulated by the RIPE community. The examples you have given us have been investigated
and were allocated strictly in accordance with policy. They may well be in use for fraudulent
purposes but the RIPE NCC does not have the power to perform criminal investigations, neither
should it have. Such an action would take it outside the law and into the realm of a vigilante group. 
I doubt whether the membership of the RIPE NCC wants it to enter such territory.

Please believe me when I say that I dislike cyber crime, all cyber crime, as much as you do and have done my bit
in fighting it, as you know. However I cannot allow
the neutrality of the RIPE NCC, or its reliance on the transparent policy making process of the RIPE community to be
compromised by taking unilateral action against one of its members on the basis of circumstantial evidence, however
strong and regardless of who presents it.

Please follow the proper process (the PDP) and the RIPE NCC and the RIPE community will give you every possible help.

Best regards

Nigel