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20061005 12:06:29 | Belle@jabber | Hi, my name is Isabel Pinto-Coelho Sena from the RIPE NCC. I will be monitoring this channel during this session. If you have a question or comment, I can read it out. Please make sure your questions are as clear as possible. I will read out any questions when the speaker asks for questions at the end of his/her presentation.
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20061005 12:11:38 | cybes@irc | hmm.. not sure.. shall I try for co-chair again?
20061005 12:11:44 | cybes@irc | hmm.. not sure
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20061005 12:24:24 | master@irc | of course we don't trust LIRs
20061005 12:24:53 | Remco-16243@irc | you shouldn't :)
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20061005 12:27:54 | iljitsch@jabber | Everyone thinks they're special. That's how you get large routing tables.
20061005 12:28:20 | Remco-16243@irc | in a way, everybody is, of course
20061005 12:30:08 | master@irc | sure, everyone is, especially me
20061005 12:31:37 | Remco-16243@irc | not more than me you're not :)
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20061005 12:37:30 | master@irc | so
20061005 12:39:20 | pheldal@jabber | PIv6 may be unavoidable some time in the future, but it's premature to implement it now
20061005 12:39:43 | iljitsch@jabber | right. especially since the IETF is working on an alternative with shim6
20061005 12:39:51 | pheldal@jabber | V6 at present makes me think of GOSIP 15 years ago
20061005 12:39:53 | master@irc | wrong, do it now, or keep with .1% of IPv6 traffic for the next 10years
20061005 12:40:03 | pheldal@jabber | pushed by the same people
20061005 12:40:20 | iljitsch@jabber | master: false dichotomy, that's not the choice
20061005 12:40:23 | pheldal@jabber | govts doing product development
20061005 12:41:17 | master@irc | iljitsch: no, i want to start to sell IPv6 now :)
20061005 12:41:58 | pheldal@jabber | I'm all for v6 and other progress, but real market analysis say there's no interest now
20061005 12:42:07 | iljitsch@jabber | Your short-time gain in sales isn't worth the long-time pain we get from creating an IPv6 swampt
20061005 12:42:15 | pheldal@jabber | businesses don't ask for v6
20061005 12:42:24 | pheldal@jabber | residential users don't ask for it
20061005 12:42:33 | iljitsch@jabber | People aren't going to deploy IPv6 en masse if they can do PI any more than they are doing now.
20061005 12:42:50 | pheldal@jabber | there's no application to drive deployment
20061005 12:42:59 | master@irc | i have no pain with big routing tables
20061005 12:43:04 | pheldal@jabber | v4 can cope for a few more years
20061005 12:43:08 | master@irc | if i can't pay for bigger routers, there's something wrong
20061005 12:43:26 | master@irc | business do, gouvernments do, military does (in .de)
20061005 12:43:27 | iljitsch@jabber | master: right, you get the money, you buy a big router. We don't get the money but we also have to carry the routes.
20061005 12:43:51 | master@irc | iljitsch: no, do you really need full routes everywhere? 
20061005 12:44:17 | iljitsch@jabber | man, connectivity to www.apnic.net sucks...
20061005 12:45:01 | iljitsch@jabber | master: not everywhere of course
20061005 12:45:19 | pheldal@jabber | if you want v6 *now* then produce a killer application to drive implementation.
20061005 12:46:08 | Remco-16243@irc | .oO (Vista ?)
20061005 12:46:11 | iljitsch@jabber | it's not a question of wanting ipv6, but of when we run out of ipv4 addresses
20061005 12:46:32 | master@irc | either the policy passes soon, or not, we'll see
20061005 12:47:18 | pheldal@jabber | (note that *PIv6* in my first statement was *not* a typo;)
20061005 12:47:32 | koopal@irc | ask the people asking questions to speak in the mic please
20061005 12:47:55 | iljitsch@jabber | we don't have questions, only answers.  :-)
20061005 12:48:17 | pheldal@jabber | I.e. IPv6 is fine, but it's premature to introduce PI now
20061005 12:49:43 | master@irc | about the current proposal in discussion.. i don't think it will work (working e-mail addresses) 
20061005 12:49:51 | master@irc | yup, can't be enforced 
20061005 12:50:05 | iljitsch@jabber | spamfilter, anyone?
20061005 12:50:50 | master@irc | soo back to PI :)
20061005 12:51:24 | master@irc | did i support this one? *think* 
20061005 12:52:23 | Belle@jabber | Please let me know clearly when you'd like your comments to be read out
20061005 12:54:16 | pheldal@jabber | wrt /24 limit: RIPE should not involve in assignments smaller than filter-guidelines allow
20061005 12:54:40 | iljitsch@jabber | so who creates the filterguidelines? (should be called rules in this case then)
20061005 12:54:53 | master@irc | good question, i still wonder who invented /24 filtesr in v4
20061005 12:55:19 | pheldal@jabber | RIPE is not the routing police, but that shouldn't prevent ripe from making filtering guidelines for the space assigned
20061005 12:55:50 | iljitsch@jabber | Hm, isn't "ripe" the same people as the people who are now deciding on address policies?
20061005 12:56:03 | master@irc | ah right that was my problem with the number, they change... right.. now i remember what i wrote about it on the list
20061005 12:56:12 | pheldal@jabber | As Lars-Johan just said: RIPE should work towards consistency between policy and practise
20061005 12:56:19 | iljitsch@jabber | as a member of the conf t club I'll filter any way I damn well please
20061005 12:57:39 | Remco-16243@irc | you break it and get to keep both pieces :)
20061005 12:58:37 | pheldal@jabber | iljitsch: sure you can filter as you want, but RIPE can still make recommended filters saying "this is how far you can take filtering without compromising connectivity throughout our region"
20061005 12:59:07 | pheldal@jabber | "in accordance with our allocation policies"
20061005 13:03:17 | iljitsch@jabber | pheldal: that would work if it made sense. but if you look at https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-ncc-managed-address-space.html they want me to filter at /29 in 91.0.0.0/8 and /64 in 2001:600::/23. As an operator, I can't work with that.\
20061005 13:05:24 | pheldal@jabber | that's because there hasn't yet been a push to adjust policy and practise to make sense
20061005 13:05:35 | iljitsch@jabber | /me pushes
20061005 13:05:43 | pheldal@jabber | ;)
20061005 13:07:02 | pheldal@jabber | the problem wrt guidelines is the resistence within RIPE to go anywhere near operational practises
20061005 13:07:20 | iljitsch@jabber | same is true in the ietf. but if not here or there, where?
20061005 13:08:13 | pheldal@jabber | now it's anarchy, but that doesn't really work in a commercial environment.
20061005 13:09:03 | iljitsch@jabber | actually it does, see current situation. problem is only that you never reach a truly optimal situation because all the players are trying to optimize for something different.
20061005 13:09:39 | pheldal@jabber | (BCPs haven't served their purpose as intended either, in the last 15 years or so)
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20061005 13:14:08 | Belle@jabber | Leo Vegoda has finished the presentation. Let me know your question now.
20061005 13:18:54 | koopal@irc | can't hear iljitch
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20061005 13:24:05 | master@irc | hmja mailing-list discussion can be more detailed then commenting here anyways
20061005 13:25:54 | master@irc | at least something positive :)
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20061005 13:36:53 | Belle@jabber | The session has ended, thank you for your participation :)
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