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2005-05-03 [08:58:08] <henku> Morning all, this is the plenary in stockholm
2005-05-03 [08:58:08] <henku> We will start with the second talk, as the speaker for the first one is stuck in traffic
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2005-05-03 [09:00:05] <irc> (BECHA) Good morning, I'm Vesna from RIPE NCC. If you have any questions for the presenter this morning, I will stand up and ask them for you.
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2005-05-03 [09:02:32] <irc> (BECHA) If you don't watch this over eebcast, or here in the room, just to tell you that the current speaker is Daniel Karrenberg from RIPE NCC, on "DNS Root Anycast Stability".
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2005-05-03 [09:06:44] <irc> (sv--) hi
2005-05-03 [09:06:57] <irc> (BECHA) hi
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2005-05-03 [09:24:45] <irc> (BECHA) any questions?
2005-05-03 [09:26:55] <irc> (BECHA) Now the speaker is peter loethberg, speaking about NTP (very long title..)
2005-05-03 [09:28:43] <irc> (BECHA) or "how do we provide the time to people in Sweden" :) I like it :) 
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2005-05-03 [09:30:46] <irc> (KnockandO) Jo
2005-05-03 [09:32:24] <irc> (BECHA) hi
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2005-05-03 [09:52:06] <irc> (brett) If theres a ripe staff member here can you let somebody know there is no sound on the webcast currently
2005-05-03 [09:52:28] <irc> ([rvs]) ok, we'll look into it
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2005-05-03 [09:52:43] <irc> (brett) thanks
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2005-05-03 [10:02:32] <irc> (BECHA) i should be listening to your questions, but i have to go now and inform technical staff about webcast problems - please wait with your questions :) 
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2005-05-03 [10:03:31] <irc> ([rvs]) Ok it should be better now
2005-05-03 [10:03:46] <irc> (brett) it is yes thanks
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2005-05-03 [10:07:20] <irc> (BECHA) thanks, ruben, for sorting it out :)
2005-05-03 [10:08:02] <irc> (BECHA) i'm back now, i am a ripe ncc 'active listener" for any jabber/irc participants questions.. 
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2005-05-03 [10:23:45] <irc> (KnockandO) So, Vesna, if we tell you something, you will go to the mike and speak up? ;)
2005-05-03 [10:24:11] <irc> (BECHA) so, elmi, if it is a related question ;-) 
2005-05-03 [10:24:30] <irc> (KnockandO) *eg*
2005-05-03 [10:24:31] <irc> (BECHA) but you also have to tell me what shall i say - who are you, and from what organisation .. 
2005-05-03 [10:24:39] <irc> (KnockandO) Somebody not on-site think up a question!
2005-05-03 [10:25:08] <irc> (BECHA) oh, don't bother, you won't make me shy anyway ;-) 
2005-05-03 [10:25:29] <irc> (KnockandO) I know, and that's one of the things I like about you :)
2005-05-03 [10:25:45] <irc> (BECHA) *blush* 
2005-05-03 [10:25:52] <irc> (BECHA) now you did make me shy ;-) 
2005-05-03 [10:26:22] <irc> (KnockandO) ;)
2005-05-03 [10:26:29] <irc> (KnockandO) Let's find the white paint.
2005-05-03 [10:26:37] <irc> (KnockandO) Btw - I didn't know, timekeeping was so difficult...
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2005-05-03 [10:26:55] <dr> KnockandO: peter is actually oversimplifying ;>
2005-05-03 [10:27:20] <dr> KnockandO looking into the NTP algos in detail alone makes you crazy
2005-05-03 [10:27:24] <irc> (KnockandO) dr: I believe so :)
2005-05-03 [10:27:33] <irc> (KnockandO) And I'm quite happy, it "simply works".
2005-05-03 [10:28:14] <irc> (KnockandO) Coffee break :)
2005-05-03 [10:30:35] <dr> is the anycast / BGP stability talk cancelled?
2005-05-03 [10:36:41] <irc> ([rvs]) that talk was swapped with the time keeping talk so that was first
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2005-05-03 [11:04:58] <irc> (KnockandO) rvs: Yup, I almost missed it over breakfast.
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2005-05-03 [11:06:25] <irc> (BECHA) msg ruben do you know if dominic will take over the "scribing" now?
2005-05-03 [11:06:30] <irc> (evilmarq) :)
2005-05-03 [11:06:43] <Dominic> yes if needed.
2005-05-03 [11:07:06] <irc> (BECHA) hi dominic, i didn't see you on the channel :)  
2005-05-03 [11:07:11] <irc> (BECHA) sorry everyone for the noise.
2005-05-03 [11:07:26] --- nathalie has become available
2005-05-03 [11:07:49] <irc> (BECHA) ciao! i'll be in Hostmaster COnsultation Centre from now on; if anyone needs a RIPE NCC trainer for the short tutorial on anything, please send them there.
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2005-05-03 [11:19:54] <irc> (jluk) Morning everyone.
2005-05-03 [11:20:40] <irc> (BECHA) hi
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2005-05-03 [11:22:12] <irc> (KnockandO) Re jluk and Vesna
2005-05-03 [11:23:14] <irc> (jluk) sleep at night time - that's a novel idea he's got there :)
2005-05-03 [11:24:54] <irc> (KnockandO) So you're the one snoring in the back? ;)
2005-05-03 [11:30:54] <irc> (jluk) I wish - work load wouldn't allow me to be there this time :(
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2005-05-03 [11:35:31] <irc> (KnockandO) Oh, catastrophies brewing?
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2005-05-03 [11:57:43] <irc> (marcoh) jluk: greetings fro Anna :P
2005-05-03 [12:04:02] <irc> (jluk) My liver is one thing that probably will be happy I'm not there :)
2005-05-03 [12:04:09] <irc> (jluk) marcoh: how's she doing ?
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2005-05-03 [12:06:22] <irc> (marcoh) jluk:: pretty  ok
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2005-05-03 [12:07:04] <irc> (jluk) Is the weather as bad there as it was in Manchester ?
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2005-05-03 [12:13:05] <irc> (BECHA) jluk: i was not in manchester, but yesterday evening it was quite cold, and today it's raining.. not too nice, i'd say..
2005-05-03 [12:15:10] <irc> (jluk) That makes me feel a little better about not being there ;)
2005-05-03 [12:15:31] <irc> (KnockandO) Vesna: Was quite warm yesterday eve (for Stockholm). You only had to wear a light jacket.
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2005-05-03 [13:37:23] <irc> (sv--) re
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2005-05-03 [13:50:48] <susannah> hi
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2005-05-03 [13:58:58] <susannah> Hello - I'm Susannah from the RIPE NCC. I'll be monitoring this session :-)
2005-05-03 [14:03:23] <willem> hi susannag
2005-05-03 [14:03:33] <willem> Sorry, susannah..
2005-05-03 [14:03:53] <susannah> :-
2005-05-03 [14:03:56] <susannah> )
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2005-05-03 [14:13:36] <dr> is there any chance to raise the video quality? I have a hard time reading anything.
2005-05-03 [14:14:03] <dr> or publish slides at the beginning of the talk so we can follow the PDF/HTML ;)
2005-05-03 [14:14:42] <rhe> I think slides are at: http://rosie.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/uploads/Tuesday/fils-bgp_convergence.pps
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2005-05-03 [14:15:11] <irc> (mally) not much use for those outside of the meeting venue...
2005-05-03 [14:15:31] <rhe> ah
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2005-05-03 [14:16:23] <irc> (mally) http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/index.html
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2005-05-03 [14:19:19] <rhe> So s/rosie/www/ in the other URL for current presentation.
2005-05-03 [14:21:18] <dr> thanks!
2005-05-03 [14:21:26] <dr> now hopefully openoffice can import it readable ;)
2005-05-03 [14:21:36] <willem> dr: The only way the video quality can be improved is by having presentations with bugger fonts..
2005-05-03 [14:22:03] <dr> jep, slides are fine after import, thanks
2005-05-03 [14:22:40] <irc> (marcoh) willem: or bigger people giving the presentation
2005-05-03 [14:23:19] <willem> marcoh: Yes, lets try to enlarge all input;-)
2005-05-03 [14:23:49] <irc> (evilmarq) many delegates are large enough as it is
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2005-05-03 [14:38:51] <dr> susannah: question to the talk (if not answered later): when will it do IPv4 multicast, IPv6 unicast and IPv6 multicast (RIB NLRI) and IPv6 BGP session transport?
2005-05-03 [14:40:19] <susannah> I will askn when questions are asked for - should I use your name?
2005-05-03 [14:41:12] <dr> susannah: you can, sure. Daniel Rösen
2005-05-03 [14:41:24] <susannah> ok
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2005-05-03 [14:46:04] <dr> additional question: why not used a somewhat sane configuration format like JunOS but invented just-another-config-format?
2005-05-03 [14:46:28] <iljitsch> It's probably more secure this way.  :-)
2005-05-03 [14:47:03] <dr> I'm trying to maintain seriousness, although it's hard
2005-05-03 [14:47:42] <iljitsch> Sorry. It may be true, though.
2005-05-03 [14:48:33] <dr> additional question: "always-compare-med" option missing. planned?
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2005-05-03 [14:49:39] <irc> (KnockandO) dr: Btw - why are you using jabber? ;)
2005-05-03 [14:49:48] <irc> (sv--) hi dr
2005-05-03 [14:49:56] <susannah> He will come back to the JunOS later
2005-05-03 [14:50:17] <irc> (KnockandO) Yup, but he'll not be able to explain besides "it looked good to me and it can inherit" *g*
2005-05-03 [14:50:30] <susannah> and as there is a delay, DR, I will also ask your second question too 
2005-05-03 [14:50:49] <dr> sv: hi, whoever you are :-)
2005-05-03 [14:51:05] <dr> susannah: thanks
2005-05-03 [14:51:07] --- ferenc has become available
2005-05-03 [14:51:35] <dr> susannah: all those three question were actually meant to be queued for the Q&A session at the end, if they weren't answered earlier in the talk :-)
2005-05-03 [14:51:46] --- Peter Koch has become available
2005-05-03 [14:51:55] <susannah> ok
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2005-05-03 [14:58:50] <jeroen> I have a question for Mr Henning (at least if he can answer without swearing): when are they going to document the CARP protocol ? :)
2005-05-03 [14:59:25] <jeroen> { it might be interesting to have it interop with other hardware, like real routers...}
2005-05-03 [14:59:49] <dr> jeroen: prolly when they are finished calling people "whiners" and "assholes" who ask for that
2005-05-03 [14:59:51] <susannah> I will also ask this one in the question session too
2005-05-03 [15:00:00] <jeroen> thanks sussannah
2005-05-03 [15:00:03] <dr> but I would like to ask that too
2005-05-03 [15:00:11] <dr> "no spec, no interop implementations"
2005-05-03 [15:00:44] <jeroen> dr: I mean it seriously as I was looking at failover stuff lately and theirs might be interesting if we where able to implement it (it does IPv6, which vrrp does not yet do)
2005-05-03 [15:01:32] <dr> jeroen: ACK
2005-05-03 [15:01:56] <dr> I'm not asking to bait, but I want to see any fast redundancy protocol for IPv6 too
2005-05-03 [15:02:17] <dr> but one cannot push JNPR and CSCO to implement something which doesn't exist as a spec
2005-05-03 [15:02:25] <irc> (KnockandO) Maybe we can hook a mobile phone up to the mike and have dr talk directly :)
2005-05-03 [15:02:28] <jeroen> indeed
2005-05-03 [15:02:54] <jeroen> knock: nah.... we'll arrange some chocolat for susannah
2005-05-03 [15:02:55] <iljitsch> dr: what about regular RAs with neighbor unreachability detection?
2005-05-03 [15:03:02] <irc> (KnockandO) . o O (mebbe Susanna would stop looking so over-concentrating...)
2005-05-03 [15:03:12] <jeroen> iljitsch: works indeed... but is not 'fast enough' in some cases
2005-05-03 [15:03:20] <dr> iljitsch: slow, clumsy and only for default routes
2005-05-03 [15:03:41] <iljitsch> for non-default stuff teh cisco giveth us routing protocols...
2005-05-03 [15:03:47] <dr> doesn't work for providing a resilient next-hop to point static routes at
2005-05-03 [15:04:19] <dr> iljitsch: you want to ask your hosting customers to run BGP daemons on their servers? ;)
2005-05-03 [15:04:32] <dr> anyway, we should chat about that elsewhere :-)
2005-05-03 [15:04:42] <iljitsch> those use you as a default so it doesn't really apply...
2005-05-03 [15:05:08] <iljitsch> I wish I could just point those to the all routers anycast address but no dice.
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2005-05-03 [15:09:10] * jeroen wonder what "many many many" peers is..... 
2005-05-03 [15:09:29] <jeroen> (can't read the slides as they are blurred and he uses an MS Comic Sans font for the slides.....)
2005-05-03 [15:09:37] <dr> swissIX route-server?
2005-05-03 [15:10:51] <jeroen> dunno, fun part about open* ... no real references ever
2005-05-03 [15:11:25] <dr> susannah: ah, additional to the first question: L3VPN NLRI types missing too, planned?
2005-05-03 [15:11:46] <irc> (KnockandO) dr: You will have to translate these acronyms :)
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2005-05-03 [15:12:55] <irc> (KnockandO) The french guy asks the right questions :)
2005-05-03 [15:13:13] <irc> (KnockandO) "Hi Daniel"
2005-05-03 [15:13:23] <jeroen> that is alain durand on the mike isn't it?
2005-05-03 [15:13:35] <rhe> No, was Francis Dupont
2005-05-03 [15:13:40] <jeroen> ah indeed
2005-05-03 [15:13:43] <jeroen> mix em up :)
2005-05-03 [15:14:55] <jeroen> hmmm weird he called me a 'asshole' and whiner
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2005-05-03 [15:14:58] <jeroen> last time
2005-05-03 [15:15:24] <irc> (marcoh) jeroen: people do growup eventually
2005-05-03 [15:15:55] <jeroen> I hope he does indeed
2005-05-03 [15:15:59] <irc> (KnockandO) marco: You're an optimist.
2005-05-03 [15:16:23] <irc> (marcoh) KnockandO: nothing wrong with that, or is it ?
2005-05-03 [15:16:34] <irc> (KnockandO) marco: You can only be negatively surprised :)
2005-05-03 [15:17:08] <irc> (KnockandO) I am still not sure why they want to bind the OpenBGPd so close to the kernel routing table...
2005-05-03 [15:17:26] <irc> (UncleH) saves memory I guess
2005-05-03 [15:17:36] <irc> (UncleH) as if that is an issue
2005-05-03 [15:17:41] <irc> (KnockandO) But makes the stuff too dumb for use as a route server.
2005-05-03 [15:17:50] <jeroen> knock: "security"
2005-05-03 [15:17:54] <irc> (KnockandO) *g*
2005-05-03 [15:18:12] <irc> (will) good question
2005-05-03 [15:18:25] <irc> (marcoh) yeps
2005-05-03 [15:19:01] <irc> (KnockandO) Well, the answer is "we want to route with it, so we did it this way".
2005-05-03 [15:19:27] <irc> (KnockandO) I like the cleanliness of the code, and I dislike the Open* stuff around it.
2005-05-03 [15:19:30] --- edlewis has become available
2005-05-03 [15:19:44] <irc> (KnockandO) Aha.
2005-05-03 [15:19:49] <jeroen> knock: it is clean because it is virgin new and it does not implement anything
2005-05-03 [15:19:53] <irc> (KnockandO) So, here's the answer to some more features.
2005-05-03 [15:20:04] <jeroen> knock: one can implement BGP in about 4000 lines or so
2005-05-03 [15:20:18] <irc> (KnockandO) jeroen: Yup, but it's already a _bit_ more...
2005-05-03 [15:20:27] <dr> largely depending on how many features you ignore conveniently
2005-05-03 [15:20:36] <irc> (KnockandO) Yup.
2005-05-03 [15:20:48] <irc> (KnockandO) What you implement depends on what you need. This is free software, after all...
2005-05-03 [15:21:45] <irc> (KnockandO) Now for the part of begging for money :)
2005-05-03 [15:22:50] <jeroen> (susannah: could you tell mr henning that the L3VPN NLRI types are *documented* by the IETF :)
2005-05-03 [15:23:10] <irc> (KnockandO) Do you believe this is appropriate at this moment?
2005-05-03 [15:23:15] <irc> (KnockandO) One can still LART him afterwards...
2005-05-03 [15:23:18] <dr> definately NOT.
2005-05-03 [15:24:14] <irc> (KnockandO) dr: Oh yes, he gets to sit right behind me, so Susannah, Vesna or myself could LART him.
2005-05-03 [15:24:23] <irc> (KnockandO) (if he returns to his seat)
2005-05-03 [15:24:25] <jeroen> knock: just ask him
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2005-05-03 [15:25:21] <dr> KnockandO: you're on-site?
2005-05-03 [15:25:23] <irc> (KnockandO) jeroen: I will, but I fathom he simply didn't know about "L3VPN NLRI types"...
2005-05-03 [15:25:25] <irc> (KnockandO) dr: Sure.
2005-05-03 [15:25:38] <jeroen> knock: teach him this url: www.google.com
2005-05-03 [15:26:17] <irc> (KnockandO) *lol*
2005-05-03 [15:26:25] <irc> (KnockandO) Doesn*t help if you do not know what to search for
2005-05-03 [15:26:42] <jeroen> we can always ask mike to give him a personal tour :)
2005-05-03 [15:26:43] <olaf> Guys this is a public and archived room... 
2005-05-03 [15:26:55] <jeroen> olaf: I know
2005-05-03 [15:27:01] <olaf> don't become to ad-hominum
2005-05-03 [15:27:04] <irc> (KnockandO) olaf: Cool.
2005-05-03 [15:27:05] <irc> (marcoh) KnockandO: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=clue
2005-05-03 [15:27:13] <irc> (KnockandO) marcoh: *g* I'll forward this
2005-05-03 [15:27:18] <irc> (UncleH) Results 1 - 10 of about 10,900,000 for clue [definition]. (0.14 seconds) 
2005-05-03 [15:27:50] <dr> hehe, retro email....
2005-05-03 [15:28:02] <irc> (KnockandO) I do not understand one word...
2005-05-03 [15:28:02] * dr feels reminded on ooold times ;>
2005-05-03 [15:28:21] <irc> (KnockandO) Jaap is one hell of a talker :)
2005-05-03 [15:28:24] <dr> droesen!althh!altger!unido!uunet!... .-)
2005-05-03 [15:28:38] <dr> erm, a !science! missing after droesen! ;->
2005-05-03 [15:29:19] <dr> ...!uunet!unido!altger!althh!science!droesen it was... memory vanishes ;)
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2005-05-03 [15:33:03] <dr> jaap: thanks for the entertaining deja-vu ;)
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2005-05-03 [15:57:56] <irc> (sv--) hmm
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2005-05-03 [15:59:56] <Pierre> Hi there, I´m Pierre Baume from the RIPE NCC. I´ll be monitoring this channel. Please let me know if you have comments or questions to read out during the session. And don´t forget to mention your name and organisation. :-)
2005-05-03 [16:00:49] <willem> Hi pi
2005-05-03 [16:01:09] <willem> erre
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2005-05-03 [16:33:46] <jeroen> I hope somebody mentions m6bone (http://www.m6bone.net) during this subject
2005-05-03 [16:33:56] <dr> hm, there are actually large transit players like Level3 and C&W who do Multicast
2005-05-03 [16:34:14] <dr> that should be mentioned IMHO
2005-05-03 [16:34:34] <dr> from the presentation one might get the impression that ISC is the only option to get multicast from?!?
2005-05-03 [16:34:47] <dr> or did I miss something (might have happened, wasn't paying attention 100%)
2005-05-03 [16:34:52] <irc> (colin) global crossing as well
2005-05-03 [16:35:47] <dr> and the "all-or-nothing" is IMHO not really correct... there is e.g. multitopo ISIS to deal with different unicast and multicast intradomain topos.
2005-05-03 [16:35:54] <dr> but perhaps that will be mentioned
2005-05-03 [16:35:57] <jeroen> dr: nope... ISC helps out when there is no native connectivity, but also to find your native upstreams for you and help them out
2005-05-03 [16:36:06] <dr> jeroen: ah, thanks
2005-05-03 [16:36:08] <jeroen> (that is the story he just told)
2005-05-03 [16:36:20] <irc> (KnockandO) Or deploy AMT magic.
2005-05-03 [16:36:56] <irc> (jluk) can he give some of these numbers rather than saying they're remarkably small.
2005-05-03 [16:37:24] <irc> (jluk) Anyone care to ask him for some of these actual figures
2005-05-03 [16:38:04] <Pierre> What figures you want to hear? (And what´s your name/organisation?)
2005-05-03 [16:39:07] <irc> (jluk) Name: Jon Lawrence  - figures (of users) that make it financially viable to deploy mcast
2005-05-03 [16:39:52] <Pierre> What's your org?
2005-05-03 [16:40:04] <irc> (jluk) Evergreen Internet.
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2005-05-03 [16:40:33] <dr> arno: you're arno v? ;)
2005-05-03 [16:40:44] <arno> nope, arno m
2005-05-03 [16:40:51] <dr> arno: ah ok :-)
2005-05-03 [16:40:51] <irc> (KnockandO) Arno is always Arno M :)
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2005-05-03 [16:59:06] <irc> (jluk) Can we get the slides for the mcast talk uploaded somewhere.
2005-05-03 [17:00:03] <Pierre> They´ll be put online on the meeting website.
2005-05-03 [17:00:41] <irc> (jluk) Thanks Pierre (they're not present on the externally accessible site atm).
2005-05-03 [17:01:25] <Pierre> Not sure how it´ll take. It depends on the presenter. :-)
2005-05-03 [17:01:36] <Pierre> s/how/how long/
2005-05-03 [17:01:43] <irc> (jluk) fair enough
2005-05-03 [17:02:10] <irc> (jluk) so long as someone remembers to ask him for them :)
2005-05-03 [17:04:21] <Pierre> I think that we have someone chasing all presentations during/after the meeting. Jeroen probably knows more.
2005-05-03 [17:08:56] <jeroen> I did not see any such paths in GRH until february.... oddly enough
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2005-05-03 [17:11:55] <dr> jeroen: me neither. and read IPv6 full DFZ tables almost daily since september :]
2005-05-03 [17:12:06] <dr> s/and read/and I've read/
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2005-05-03 [17:28:51] <Pierre> The session has been closed.
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