Minutes

1. Opening


Rob Blokzijl welcomed the participants to the 13th RIPE
meeting. Apologies were received from the following persons:

Dennis Russell
George Abe
Don Stikvoort
Hank Nussbacher
Mike Norris
Sylvain Langlois


Hans Nussbacher resigned as chairman of the mapping working
group. Daniele Bovio has agreed to act as chairman.


1.1. Approval of the agenda

The agenda was approved.


1.2. Papers tabled:


Agenda for the 13th RIPE meeting

RIPE Quarterly Report, Issue 2, September - draft

Overview of European connectivity

RIPE position paper

RIPE NCC Network Management Database leaflet - draft version
2

RIPE NCC Interactive Information Services leaflet - draft
version 2

RIPE NCC Delegated Internet Registry leaflet - draft version
1

RIPE NCC IP allocation template from JNT

Relationship between the Research, Academic, Educational and
Commercial Networks

Draft paper - draft-rekhter-ipaddress-guide-04.txt by
Rekhter, Li and Gerich. Chapter on recommendations only.

1.3. Additions to the agenda under AOB

Joyce Reynolds wished to give a short presentation on the
new IETF working groups in the User Services area.

Niall O'Reilly wished to make a short announcement concern-
ing HEAnet.

Mikhail Popov presentation on the current state of network-
ing in Russia was moved to Friday morning.

Logistics and organisational details for the meeting were
handed to the RIPE vice-chairs for consideration, who
reported back on Thursday 1st October.


2. Minutes of the last meeting.

2.1. Approval of the minutes

The minutes from the 12th RIPE meeting were approved.

2.2. Review of the action list:

Action: Ruediger Volk Francis Dupont

Collect DNS tools and make available to public via NCC
Archives

Action to be reviewed during the DNS working group.

Action: Tony Bates and Marten Terpstra: Produce a document
on experiences of running IP/IXI.

Action closed because it has been overtaken by the EMPB pro-
posal.

Action: Rob Blokzijl and Daniel Karrenberg Write a RIPE sec-
tion to the Internet Monthly Report.

Action completed.

Action: Erik-Jan Bos: Produce a recommendations document on
security issues. Prepare for next technical session.

Both action items open. Technical sessions planned for 14th
RIPE meeting.

Action: Francis Dupont and Milan Sterba: Produce a cookbook
on DNS. First version ready at the next RIPE meeting. Input
on the contents of the document is requested.

Action open. No progress. Action has been deferred until
the publication of a book which is thought to be useful
input.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg: Make a new distribution of the
database tools available.

Action completed.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Coordination of vendor presenta-
tions at the next RIPE technical session.

Action open.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Send the address of the ISO sub-
committee that handles ISO-3166 work.

Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra: To store and make available to pub-
lic DNS tools.

Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra Install mailing list on RIPE
machines for those working groups who requested a list.

Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra To archive routing recommendations
in NCC document store.

Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra Collect information regarding the
Second Root Name Server. The relevant IETF working group
will be contacted regarding global requirements.

Ongoing and dependant upon the decisions reached in the DNS
working group.

Action: Marten Terpstra To evaluate Domain Debugging Tools.

Action open. Two tools evaluated and ongoing.

Action: Hank Nussbacher and Don Stikvoort: Write a charter
for the RIPE mapping working group.

Action open and moved to Daniele Bovio.

Action: Bernhard Stockman: Distribute the draft RIPE statis-
tics document to the ripe-org mailing list for further com-
ments.

Action closed. No progress.

Action: Ruediger Volk Produce a document on methods for
incremental updates of the RIPE database.

Action has been completed. Document can be found in
ripe/docs/ripe-draft/ripe-drafts-inc- update-v0.txt

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Send routing recommendations
to RIPE for approval.

Action completed.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Make available NLC software
via anonymous FTP (via NCC).

Action open and progressing.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Discussions regarding the
Routing Policy Description Form. Discuss this with Jessica
Yu.

Action open.

Action: Milan Sterba and Geza Turchanyi: Evaluate and con-
sider nature of information for NIDUS.

Action open.

3. RIPE Position Paper (Rob Blokzijl)

Prior to the meeting, the RIPE position paper had been cir-
culated. As such the paper is now con- sidered to be a
document which reflects consensus of opinion within the RIPE
community. The meeting thus agreed to the paper as is. The
document currently in the RIPE document store:

/ripe/docs/ripe-draft

ripe-draft-position-v2.txt

will be given a document number and moved to:

/ripe/docs/ripe-docs

4. RIPE NCC (Daniel Karrenberg)

4.1. Status Report.

The RIPE NCC status report was presented by Daniel Karren-
berg. It was based on the September quarterly report, which
was included as a document at the meeting. What follows is
a summary of that document. It was noted that the report was
in fact a draft version so that comments concerning the con-
tent of the report could be incorporated if received. Com-
ments were invited and welcomed.

The status report was based on comparisons drawn between the
status report given at the 12th RIPE meeting. Activities
reported comprised the following.

4.1.1. The development of the NCC as the delegated registry
for European IP requests.

Since the beginning of September the NCC agreed to handle
all requests for IP numbers from European organisations.
Statistics were presented concerning the number and speed of
response on requests. In response to an invitation by the
NCC for local registries to identify themselves, the NCC is
now able to forward a significant number of requests. It
was mentioned that it was the goal of the NCC to respond to
all requests within 5 working days.

4.1.2. RIPE Database

The RIPE database software has been completely rewritten.
The changes mean that the software is now:

o totally configurable to local environments Extra objects
can be added by editing the configu- ration files;

o currently undergoing testing at 4 Beta sites;

o senders of updates now receive personal confirmation mes-
sages including all objects;

o the indexing of the software has been revised and the plan
is to make it configurable.

4.1.3. New Whois Client

Using the RIPE Whois client it is now possible to query the
RIPE database by default and use addi- tional flags to query
the US databases. The quotes are no longer necessary.The
new whois client can be found in /tools/ripe-whois.tar.Z

4.1.4. Global Exchange Format

There have been ongoing discussions to resolve the incon-
sistencies between the RIPE database and the GSI database
with Mark Kosters. Schema discussions continue and progress
will be reported.

4.1.5. DNS

The hostcount is published monthly and can be found in the
RIPE document store in the subdirec- tory ripe/hostcount.
The error files and output are also contained in the same
directory.

4.1.6. Document Store

The document store has been reorganised and made complete.
Thanks were given to the RIPE chairman for his significant
effort.

4.1.7. General

The RIPE NCC leaflets have been revised and version 2 of
each leaflet has been drafted. Printing was subject to
approval of the leaflets at the RIPE meeting.

Audiocast tests are ongoing. Those interested in taking
part in the tests should contact the NCC.

It was pointed out to the audience that the statistical data
presented in the Quarterly report were exclusive of the last
week of September, in order that a draft of the report could
be produced in time for the meeting.

4.2. Goals

The evaluation of the RIPE NCC status report was made by
comparing the present with previous goals presented at the
12th RIPE meeting. In particular the following were noted:

o the NCC Activity Plan now has a new document number after
the document store update. The new number is ripe-35;

o Work is progressing well with regard to the exchange for-
mats between the RIPE, DDN NIC and Merit databases;

o Network mapping is needed but so far no input has been
received from the RIPE mapping working group;

o The need for more European root severs will be investi-
gated further;

o More guidance is needed from the ripe community on the
future direction of the statistics working group.

4.3. Future of the RIPE NCC

4.3.1. Organisational position

The RIPE organisational position paper has been distributed,
which explains the RARE to RIPE NCC relationship. To
repeat, RARE provides the organisational framework for the
RIPE NCC. This has been and continues to be a satisfactory
situation. The suggestion however to change this to put the
RIPE NCC under the jurisdiction of the OU was not considered
appropriate because it is thought that the OU will be a ser-
vice provider and it is vital that RIPE NCC remains an
impartial and fair organisation.

At the RARE CoA in Bratislava on September 24-25 it was
agreed and stated that RIPE is and should remain a separate
body in its own right.

4.3.2. Budget

As the financial reporting of the RIPE NCC is formally to
the RARE treasurer a full financial report could not be
made. The present financing of the RIPE NCC will be pub-
lished in the minutes of the RARE CoA meeting. It was noted
however, that the RIPE NCC budget expenditure after the
first 6 months of operation has been as expected. However,
to fulfil all of the goals outlined in the activity plan
(document ripe-35) with equal priority, more staff may be
needed.

4.3.3. Financing

At the RARE CoA it was agreed that a fairer model for the
financing of the RIPE NCC should be agreed upon. Currently
there are many organisations who are not contributing to the
funding of the RIPE NCC and who utilise the services pro-
vided. Therefore it was recommended that all organisations
currently contributing should pay a fairer share of the
overall budget, with those organisations who currently util-
ise the services of the RIPE NCC, making a contribution.

Current contributing RARE organisations have agreed to con-
tinue financing the RIPE NCC from April 1st 1993 until 31st
December 1993.

In the discussions that followed the complexity of the prob-
lem was noted, specifically how do you determine a "fair"
contribution; accounting procedures must be in place; can
you rely upon volun- tary contributions? The financing
problems of the German NIC were also noted.It was proposed
to begin discussions of the financing of the RIPE NCC with
the establishment of a financing task model. Discussions
were moved to the BOF session on Delegated Registries.

5. RIPE and RARE

5.1. Report from the RARE CoA (Rob Blokzijl)

A short written document in the form of a letter received
from the Secretary-General of RARE on the outcome of the
discussions with respect to the relationship between RARE
and RIPE was dis- tributed as a meeting document and is also
included below. To reiterate, the document stated that it
was agreed that the existence of both RIPE and RARE within
Europe was useful and that each group would endeavour in its
technical programs not to duplicate the work done by each
other and the IETF.

-------------------------------------------
Dear Rob,

Enclosed please find the formulation of the CoA decision on
the relation between RARE and RIPE, as approved by the REC:

1. RARE and RIPE are independent bodies

2. To prevent duplication of work the following has been
agreed:

o RARE will not set up an IP coordination group and will
rely on RIPE for this function. RIPE will not set up a
technical development programme and will rely on the RTC and
IETF for this function.

3. To enable close cooperation on the technical level RIPE
is invited to appoint a member of the RTC. The RIPE chair-
man is invited to the next meeting of RTC.

Could you please carry the message to the RIPE meeting and
use your influence to have this agreement accepted by the
RIPE.

Best regards



Tomaz

--------------------------------------------

5.2. The RARE Technical Program (Sven Tavfelin)

An outline of the function and purpose of the RARE Technical
Program (RTC) was given. Briefly the RTC defines the techn-
ical program of RARE. The program is managed through the
guidelines given by the RARE Executive Committee (REC).

Traditionally the technical activities of RARE have been OSI
oriented, but this is changing so that much greater focus
will be placed on general networking. There is a strong
desire by CoA, REC and the RTC to collaborate with RIPE and
to avoid any duplication of effort. The methodology for
this is to be discussed further but will start with the
suggestion that RIPE Chairman becomes a member of the RTC.

The need for both pragmatism and reality was stressed.
Specifically: operational services must be the focus point;
the workplan must reflect user needs; the piloting of new
services is crucial; dupli- cation of work is to be avoided
with the recognition that there is no intention to compete
with RIPE.

A short introduction to the Task Forces and the RARE
Technical Reports (RTR's) was given.

An invitation to send comments concerning the RTC's was sug-
gested. The email address to use is

rtc.-business _at_ rare _dot_ nl

5.2.1. RARE Working Groups (Tim Dixon)

An outline of the RARE working groups was presented. Prior
to the meeting documents had been circulated describing the
name of the working groups, the chairperson, the charter of
the group and the main work items.

6. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen)

The proposal presented was to conduct a study to quantify
Internet traffic on a global basis for a period of at least
one month but preferably three, with cooperation and
involvement from the RIPE community.

Based on a study carried out at the University of Hawaii it
was found that:

o 80 per cent of the addresses were resolvable

o 40 per cent of resolvable traffic both originated and was
destined to non-US networks

When the period of measurement was increased, the above fig-
ures decreased. A one and half month period gave around 10
per cent transit traffic, whilst a 6 month period gave 4.32
percent.

The goals of the project were identified as follows:

o to determine the source and destination of traffic flows

o to identify which services are being used and their dura-
tion of use

o to determine whether global patterns of usage exist and
the periodicity of such patterns

o to determine a statistical distribution of traffic for the
simulation of network operations

To effectively sample the traffic flows, the duration of the
study was proposed for a period of at least one month but
preferably 3 months. To date, the data yielded from traffic
studies has proved difficult to analyse due to the shortage
of the time period (between 1 - 3 hours) hence the longer
period of study is felt necessary.
- 13 -


The study requires people at strategic traffic flow points
to participate in a global effort to gather sta- tistics
over a 1-3 month period, at both network and application
layers. The software developed at the University of Hawaii
will be made publicly available. It was observed that
secondary storage of all the gathered raw data will be
required, therefore it may be necessary to find funding for
the nec- essary equipment.

7. Global Address Assignment (Daniel Karrenberg)

The paper tabled by Rekhter, Lee and Gerich on Global
Address Assignments (Point 6 Recommen- dations) was circu-
lated at the meeting to encourage discussion, so that a RIPE
position could be agreed upon. Thus a presentation was not
given but a short statement was made explaining that the
paper would be considered in the Delegated Registries BOF
session.

8. Delegated Registry Inside Europe (Daniel Karrenberg)

The need for coordination and alignment of procedures
between the local and delegated registries inside Europe was
introduced and it was noted that a special BOF session on
this topic was sched- uled on the agenda for Thursday 1st
October. Furthermore it was noted that at present there was
no charge for this function and consideration during this
BOF session should be given to potential funding models.

9. Networking in Russia (M Popov)

This presentation was moved to Friday 2nd October and is
reported under the Connectivity working group report.

10. EBONE presentations

10.1. Report from the ECCO meeting in Vienna. (Bernhard
Stockman).

10.1.1. EBONE Long Term Strategy

The ECCO meeting discussed the long term strategy of the
EBONE. There are basically two func- tions the EBONE could
provide, to be a neutral platform for interconnections among
service provid- ers and to be a pan-European IP backbone.
It was agreed that both functions were needed today.

The EBONE has to evolve towards an open market situation and
to be trustworthy in such an envi- ronment EBONE has to
have:

o a sound organization

o a proper financing

o a neutral position among service providers

A strategy document will be produced before the end of 1992
where these issues will be described and to act as input to
a revised MoU.

10.1.2. EBONE Financial model

The ECCO decided that based on a proposal from Dennis Jen-
nings the expenditures of EBONE shall include:

o The backbone lines and sites

o The US connectivity

o 75 percent of regional connections

The expenditures will be recovered using a weighted system
depending on connected bandwidth.

Based on the agreed financial model most EBONE members
signed on for current or increased EBONE connectivity. With
this amount of connectivity to the EBONE the cost for a 64
Kbps connec- tion will be around 50 kECU per year.

Many new organizations have shown interest in becoming EBONE
members such as Infonet,

Alternet, US SPRINT and ANS all of whom have signed the
EBONE MoU.

10.1.3. EBONE Organization

The today loose EBONE organization will not be sufficient
for a long term EBONE. There is a need to more clearly
define roles of the today existing EBONE bodies which are:

o ECCO, The EBONE Consortium of Contributing Organizations

o EMC, The EBONE Management Committee

o EAT, The EBONE Action Team

o EOT, The EBONE Operations Team

The EMC shall in the future consist of 5 - 10 members which
are nominated by the EBONE mem- bers. At the meeting 11
participants volunteered to be in the EMC. The final compo-
sition will be voted on. Voting rights is given only to RBS
sites.

There is a need for an EBONE Manager. Frode Greisen volun-
teered for this position which was accepted by the meeting.
Frode will start to work 20 percent as EBONE manager during
1992 and with 50 percent during 1993.

EAT will continue to consist of representatives from the
EBONE members and have the engineering responsibility of the
EBONE. EOT will continue to consist of the EBONE NOC staff
plus representa- tives from the EBS sites.

A smaller group will overlook the current EBONE organization
and have a proposal ready before the end of 1992.

10.1.4. Relations to a OU

According to the MoU for EBONE-92 a proposal for a takeover
of the EBONE by the OU was sent to the OU Steering Commit-
tee. There was no formal response from the OU. The possi-
bility of EBONE existing within a proposed OU has to be re-
examined at a later stage if necessary. Like the RIPE NCC,
EBONE has to be neutral and not liaise with one of many ser-
vice providers to continue to be trustworthy.

10.1.5. Conclusion of the ECCO Vienna meeting

o EBONE will be continued at least during 1993.

o The strategic direction has to be worked out.

o A fair cost distribution has to be defined.

o The US connectivity will be included in the EBONE.

o Assurance that governmental resources are not subsidizing
commercial enterprise has to be guaranteed.

10.2. EBONE Technical presentation (Peter Lothberg)

10.2.1. What is EBONE?

EBONE is an Internet i.e. it is a collection of networks.
The technology does not provide all the magic needed for
policy implementation. It is a framework for cooperation.
EBONE tries to enhance fault management EBONE is a moving
target where any member can influence events.

A technical proposal produced during the autumn 1991 out-
lined most of the things now being imple- mented. The
EBS/RBS concept was invented by EBONE. Use of only commer-
cial available rout- ers. Distributed Management. Optional
elements in the specification become needed.

Coordination and education are a challenge. EAT was
invented in Geneva.

10.2.2. EBONE-92

Re-implementation of European routing. Pilots BGP-3 pilots
in Stockholm February 1992. Stock- holm goes BGP-3 in
March. ICMnet joined. Later this summer Amsterdam. London
went BGP from day one. NIKEF - JANET closed a loop via IXI.
CERN joined later and Montpellier joined last but they also
closed the loop.

In US the backbone has policy which creates problems so
EBONE made the inverse and put poli- cies in the regions.

o Layer 2 connections: HDLC, PPP, FR, Ethernet, FDDI

o Routing protocols: EGP, BGP, IDRP and IS-IS

o Management protocol: SNMP

o Network layer protocols: RFC IP and CLNP

o Fault management: Trouble Ticket system being developed at
the NOC

11. EMPB presentation (Svend Moller-Nielsen)

11.1. Presentation of the topology.

Backbone for the European R&D

o 2 Mbps multiprotocol

o Service guarantees

o 24*7 network management

o One-stop shopping

o full European connectivity

o Support for X.25, IP and CNLP

Access:

o HDLC

o PPP

o X.25

o FR

o Ethernet

Routing

o Static and EGP now

o BGP-3 and GP-4 is planned

11.2. Other

No connectivity to the non-European Internet is planned in
the foreseeable future.

Non European connectivity is NOT included in the charges to
customers therefore an extra pay- ment will be required for
those requiring non-European connectivity.

12. Audio Conferencing (Daniel Karrenberg)

The proposal was made to establish a Multicast backbone for
Europe (MBONE). Reference was made to the special BOF ses-
sion organised on this topic. All those interested were
invited to attend.

13. Reports from the Working Groups

Reports from the working group sessions

13.1. Relationship between Academic & Research networks and
Commercial networks

Andreas Schachtner presented the report for the working
group. Glenn Kowack sent his apologies for not being able
to deliver the presentation himself.

It was noted that this was the third time that this working
group has convened.

13.1.1. Objectives

The following was agreed by the group:

o the group mission is accepted

o to continue the workplan (outlined in a paper circulated
at the meeting)

o the nature of the problem is 3 dimensional, specifically
there exists:

-a problem dimension which refers to the need to review
existing problems

-a transformation dimension which refers to the need to
examine alternative approaches

-a forward looking dimension which refers to the need to
consider future problems

13.1.2. Group Tasks

To realise the above objectives, the following tasks were
identified:

o most of the terms of reference need clarification;

o major concern in the area of accountability with respect
to the deliverability of user services. The suggestion was
made to look at how this is achieved within other indus-
tries. For exam- ple, within the airline industry;

o consideration of other network "islands" could be an area
for investigation in the future.

13.1.3. Conclusion

No volunteers for the work tasks outlined above came for-
ward. As a minimum it was noted that these issues should be
catalogued to facilitate ongoing discussions.

Action: Glenn Kowack investigate and catalogue points raised
under Item 13.1.2 Group tasks.

13.2. Network Information Discovery and User Services (Nan-
dor Horvath)

13.2.1. New User Services Working Groups

Joyce Reynolds made a presentation on the new IETF working
groups in the area of User Services. This presentation was
also made to the wider audience, so is reported in full
under item 16 of the minutes under Any Other Business (AOB).

13.2.2. Network Information

Two ideas were discussed in the Network Information
Discovery and User Services (NIDUS) work- ing group on the
related themes of classifying network information organisa-
tions and services across Europe, as described below.

It was observed there is already a considerable amount of
resource information available, held for example in the RIPE
NCC Interactive Information Server. There was a suggestion
to survey the information available there and to include
back pointers to information in this area stored by for
example the RARE-ISUS working group.

Action: Geza Turchanyi and Nandor Horvath Agreed to work on
the survey of the availability of existing information with
respect to the RIPE document store.

The second suggestion was to define a new RIPE database
object for resource information, to specify information on
resource type, access methods and form of the data.

With regard to the second idea, concern was expressed over
the difficulty in structuring such infor- mation and whether
as a result the RIPE database would be suitable. Some
liaison was required with the RIPE Database working group in
this matter. It was agreed that as a preliminary the kind
of information required should be analysed, enabling a
refinement of the original idea.

Action: Milan Sterba Refine proposal for a new RIPE database
object for resource information, to specify infor- mation on
resource type, access methods and form of the data. Circu-
late proposal to the new mailing list for vote.

13.3. DNS issues (Francis Dupont)

13.3.1. Working plan for the RARE-NAP WG

The RARE-NAP WG agenda is not yet available then this is
only a proposal.

The DNS working group proposed the following work items for
discussion:

o Investigating the need for more root name servers in
Europe. Some data has been collected (thanks to NORDUnet)
but it was concluded that further study was in fact needed.
Several proposals have been received (most recent one from
SWITCH).

It was agreed that no additional root name servers would be
implemented until further study had been completed. Robert
Elz has been proposed as a fake root name server expert
(pitfalls learned by the hard way)

Action: Bernhard Stockman - Tell Matti Rehndal to contact
Marten Terpstra on issue of secondary name servers in
Europe.

o global DNS coordination in Europe (for instance secondary
name service for top level domains)

o DNS cookbook (dependant on publication of a book thought
to contain useful information)

o DNS software (with known bugs) and debugging tools

No new version of the DNS BIND software is currently avail-
able. Alpha testing site of the new code has been selected
and the code will be available shortly.

o Network Time Protocol (NTP)

-it is an IP service and in the scope of RARE-NAP WG

-the worldwide coordination done by Dave Mills
<Mills _at_ UDEL _dot_ EDU>. Software and the list of servers are
available by anonymous FTP on louise.udel.edu in pub/ntp
directory. News items are in the comp.protocols.time.ntp
news group.

-NTP servers should be set up at the same time as DNS
Servers

-a good service would be useful for statistics, security
etc.

13.3.2. Individual/private person domains: where to put
them?

o already studied during the 11th RIPE meeting (14.5.1 in
the minutes) no new ideas were forthcoming on this

o the real problem is not how to split the name tree, but
how to delegate these parts of the tree

o this delegation problem is a management problem but can
become a financial problem (related to the open question:
how to finance NIC services?)

13.3.3. Any Other Business

Full reference for the book referred to above is "DNS and
BIND" by Cricket Liu and Paul Albitz scheduled for publica-
tion during October 92 by O`Reilly and Associates. It was
noted that BIND 4.9 (the next version) is not yet available.

13.4. RIPE Database (Wilfried Woeber)

The proposed structure for the working group activity is to
consider the following issues:

o organisational and legal issues

o operational issues

o technical issues

13.4.1. Organisational and legal issues

o the ownership and "acceptable use" of the database was
considered. It was agreed to pro- pose a "lightweight"
solution and to prepare a formal recommendation for input to
RARE.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg and Wilfried Woeber prepare a for-
mal recommendation for input to RARE on a the ownership and
"acceptable use" of the database ".

o Review of RIPE document ripe-13 would be necessary in the
near future.

o X.400/X.500/MHS liaison would include the RTC

o Network Management Database leaflet version 2 was approved
with 2 modifications.

13.4.2. Operational Issues

o Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing.

Action: Marten Terpstra Changes in the database format.
Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing.

o To examine "non standard" use of fields.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot and Marten Terpstra examine
"non standard" use of fields. Further discussions are
necessary.

13.4.3. Technical Issues

o Autonomous System Objects.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg to circulate new draft object
definition for Autonomous System objects to the mailing list
(and Ruediger Volk).

o To include the operational contact attribute in all object
definitions besides persons. If there is widespread use of
this attribute, it is agreed to consider the creation of a
NOC object at a later stage.

Action: NCC. To include the operational contact attribute
in all object definitions besides persons

o Modification for the network number object with respect to
supernetting so that block registra- tion of networks are
now supported. This has been done.

o Query and discussion regarding the usefulness of the
Domain Object. It was agreed to keep the Domain Object for
MX domains as it was considered the only way to represent
the infor- mation required.

o General purpose extensions to the database.

Action: Antonio Blasco Bonito To make a proposal on how to
do general purpose extensions to the database in a gen- eral
manner.

o GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC exchange format discussions

Action: Marten Terpstra To progress GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC
exchange format discussions

o Routing object, routing privilege update. It was agreed
that this should be done with input from the routing working
group proposal on how to update the boundary privilege and
gate- way attributes.

Action: NCC Routing object, routing privilege update.

o Link item. Although not discussed due to insufficient
time, the proposal is revived.

Action: Milan Sterba To circulate Link item proposal and
circulate to new db-wg mailing list.

o Resource object. Also not discussed due to lack of time
but input was requested by Milan Sterba from the rest of the
working group, who would draft proposal and circulate to the
new db-wg list.

Action: Milan Sterba To work on draft proposal concerning
the resource object and to circulate to the db-wg mailing
list.

o How to delete an object.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Make a proposal on how to delete
an object from the database.

13.4.4. Conclusions

There was a proposal to establish a specific mailing list
with respect to the technical work issues of the Database
working group. Notification of the operation of the list
would be announced to the ripe- list.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg/Marten Terpstra. To announce
operation of db-wg group mailing list on the ripe-list.

13.5. IP-Routing in Europe (Jean-Michel Jouanigot)

There were more than 40 attendees at this working group ses-
sion which lasted one and a half hours. There were 3 main
topics for consideration:

o Policy based routing in RIPE

o EBONE routing

o Routing policy decisions form with respect to BGP and the
IETF

13.5.1. Policy Based routing in RIPE

The following topics were discussed:

13.5.1.1. Jean Michel Jouanigot presented a list of com-
pilers that

o can produce aggregated access lists

o give support to extend to supernetting

o are in production at CERN.

13.5.1.2. Proposal of pilot

o of routing centres defined for privileges

o for the information to be stored in the RIPE database

o ILAN, IN2P3, Switch, CERN already use the extensions for
routing. Thanks are extended to these organisations, whilst
an invitation was extended to other organisations to use the
new routing extensions.

13.5.1.3. Policy based routing tag collection

o RIPE NCC needs advice on how to collect this information

o a draft document will be sent to the ripe-list

o it was agreed to collect and implement in the RIPE data-
base routing tags.

o information supplied by the routing centre will only be
used for routing purposes. The defini- tion of a routing
centre will be explored within the ongoing discussions
between the members of the group.

o With regard to the procedures for collecting the informa-
tion it was stated that only the guard- ians of the routing
centre were allowed access to the information stored.

o In answer to a question from the audience PTT Telecom
reported that they will use the RIPE database for external
routing with respect to the EMPB.

13.5.2. EBONE Routing

o EBS to RBS connection reflects the common approach

o All organisations using the T1 link for US connectivity
will get a back up through NORDUnet.

o document on the use of the RIPE database in EBONE routing
has been produced and dis- tributed to the EOT and the work-
ing group. The document title is "Use of RIPE policy based
- 24 -


routing in EBONE" In the document it is explained how EBONE
can be viewed as one routing centre. The contents of the
document were agreed and the RIPE-wg will make a proposal to
EBONE based on the document.

13.5.3. Routing Policy decisions form

The EBONE system will filter between EBS/RBS. A good way of
describing this is by using Jessica Yu's proposed policy
description form.

13.6. Audiocast (Daniel Karrenberg)

Hans Eriksson participated at this meeting and is one of the
pioneers in this area. The WG discus- sions centred around
the following:

13.6.1. How to set up an MBONE in Europe.

o Problem to have a physical infrastructure and on top of
that a multicast infrastructure which in essence are packet
routers dedicated to route multicast with its own routing
protocol.

o The multicast topology has to be aligned with the physical
infrastructure to avoid excessive use of lines.

It is necessary to find volunteers near strategic points in
the physical infrastructure. EBONE EBS sites are covered.

A group of volunteers named MBONE-EU will be formed. For
those interested in participate in this group get informa-
tion and software from ftp.ripe.net in tools/mbone Fre-
quently Asked Question list (FAQ-list) exists. Find a stra-
tegically positioned neighbour if you want to join. You can
use the mail- ing list below if you wish to do so:

Mailing list: mbone-eu _at_ sics _dot_ se

It was stressed by all involved that this multicasting
should not be considered a production service but rather an
experimental one.

Also regulatory issues of carrying voice were raised
briefly.

Those present who had researched the issue stated that one
is probably safe as long as no con- nection to the public
telephone network is made. Local conditions can vary.

The multicast pilot from this RIPE meeting was not success-
ful due to insufficient local line capacity.

13.7. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen)

Due to room scheduling problems There was no meeting of this
group. Decisions were taken in the plenary session (see
below).

13.8. Delegated IP Registry Coordination (Daniel Karren-
berg)

13.8.1. BOF session agenda:

o review European activity over the last 3 months

o propose the development of a common European template and
procedures

o consider the Rekhter, Li and Gerich draft with the aim of
formulating a European consensus and input.

o brainstorm on funding models for the IP Registry system

13.8.2. Decisions and action points agreed:

o It was agreed to propose to make the subject of delegated
IP registry coordination a Ripe-wg and that Daniel Karren-
berg chair the WG. This was later agree by the plenary.

o It was agreed to set up a mailing list.

Action: NCC Set up db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net mailing list.

o To create a common explanatory document for use throughout
Europe. Bob Day volunteered to draft the initial document to
initiate discussions.

Action: Bob Day Circulate draft of an explanatory document
about IP number registration.

o to create a common template for collecting the details of
specific requests.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Circulate a draft of a common IP
number registration template.

Action: Bob Day and Daniel Karrenberg Align the common
explanatory document about IP number registration and the
common template.

o to exchange and document criteria for evaluating applica-
tions especially with respect to class B requests.

o to initiate a quick link to the new US Internet Registry
once it has become operational.

Action: Joyce Reynolds Keep RIPE informed about developments
around the new US NIC (NSF NIS contract award).

Registry system of funding was not discussed due to time
constraints and it was resolved to con- tinue the discussion
over the mailing list.

13.8.3. Discussed the recommendations of part of the
Rekhter, Li and Gerich draft (point 6).

The attendees agreed that excellent work had been done and
the document was of a very high standard. Some concerns
were raised that the address allocation guidelines could be
perceived as hard and fast rules rather than guidelines.
Also the guidelines should be revised at a later stage in
the light of experience. Some reservations were felt about
the class B addresses being retained by the Internet Regis-
try: it was resolved to agree to this for the present, with
a view to further evalua- tion in the light of experience.
To conclude, the consensus of opinion as expressed in the
BOF was endorsed in the plenary session as representative of
the RIPE opinion.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg prepare a document to reflect the
RIPE position and circulate it on the ripe list.

It was observed that it may be necessary to reserve address
space to be used for networks which are unlikely to ever
require connectivity to the Internet. The case of super-
markets connecting their stores using tcp-ip to connect to
their central cash centre as an example. Concern was
expressed that this would otherwise unneccessarily lessen
the amount of global address space available. Volunteers
were asked to come forward to draft a future RFC on this
problem.

13.9. Report from the German EBS meeting (Stephan
Fassbender)

The German EBS meeting made review of IP activities in Ger-
many. The GMD proposal for an EBS and two 256 lines
financed by GMD was presented. EAT has accepted this as this
will improve Internet connectivity to Germany.

Good set of agreements between most IP nets in Germany which
will continue with this effort.

13.10. European connectivity (Milan Sterba)

13.10.1. Short revision of the CEE report (version 5)

Hungary is still waiting for an upgrade of the existing line
between Budapest and Linz to 64 bit/s. There seems to be
some technical problems, which could be solved by the end of
this year

The Warsaw-Vienna terrestrial IP line is now operational at
- 27 -


64 bit/s

Prague-Linz line has been upgraded to 64 bit/s and
Bratislava-Vienna should be upgraded by the end of 1992

Several IP lines interconnect now different network clouds
in the Moskow area to DESY

Germany, DNet Denmark, Alternet USA. None of these lines
has NSF connected status yet.

The EARN line from Moskow has been downgraded to a dial-up
link to Stockholm.

Action: Milan Sterba Produce CEEC report version 5.

13.10.2. Situation with the dual-homed RBS in Austria

By the end of october 1992 both Vienna-CERN (256 kbit/s) and
Linz-Amsterdam (128 kbit/s) should be operational. Negotia-
tions are going on about setting up an EBS in Austria.

13.10.3. Ebone and CEE countries

The expected tariffs and other Ebone connectivity aspects
have been briefly explained by Bernhard Stockman and Peter
Lothberg.

13.10.4. Cheap IP solutions

Peter Lothberg announced a cheap IP solution for a PC router
which is able to communicate with a cisco at 64 kbit/s.
Info can be obtained by ftp from tftp.ebone.net
(directory./cheap)

At the next RIPE meeting in Prague there will be a presenta-
tion of cheap IP solutions implemented in the framework of
the joint franco-czechoslovak project COPERNICUS.

13.10.5. EMPB and CEE countries

Despite the strong commitment of RARE at JENC3 in Innsbruck
to contribute to a better coordina- tion of network infras-
tructure building in CEE countries, EMPB lines have now been
ordered between Amsterdam-Prague-Budapest-Bern and
Amsterdam-Aarhus-Warsaw-Bern as the part of the EMPB project
financed by the PHARE project. The setting up of these
lines has been very poorly (if at all) coordinated with net-
working organisations in CEEC and never with RIPE. This
lack of coordination will have negative impact on the possi-
bilities of integration of these services to the global net-
work and results in financial waste. PTT Telecom is now,
after the lines have been ordered, willing to coordinate.

13.11. Networking in Russia (M Popov)

Misha Popov gave a presentation on the current state of net-
working in Russia, with respect to both the technical
developments and the organisational changes that have
occurred since the last RIPE meeting. From the 5th October
1992, Russia will have improved connectivity from 9.6 Kbps
to 64 k to DATEX-P in Germany.

14. Coordination of RARE and RIPE technical programs -
decision

During discussions, the following points were agreed upon:

o the invitation by RARE to RIPE to take an active role in
the RTC is a valuable one and will be evaluated.

o both programs cover wide fields of work.

o careful attention will be paid to potential areas of over-
lap so that in principle they do not occur. Careful evalua-
tion of the programs of both RARE and RIPE is therefore
needed.

o cross membership of both programs is useful and is
currently ongoing, but this cross mem- bership should be
formalised.

o RARE and RIPE publications should be easily available -
currently the RARE document store is shadowed onto the RIPE
information server. This should be investigated further.

The next meeting of the RTC is in Pisa on November 3-5th.
It was agreed that Rob Blokzijl should attend to represent
RIPE.

15. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen) -
decision

Torben Nielsen asked for volunteers for people to take part
in his proposed study of Internet traffic. The target start
date would be 1st January 1993 and the study would run for
at least one month. Torben announced that he would create a
mailing list for those interested. Details of the list would
be sent to the ripe-list. The immediate tasks were identi-
fied as follows:

o identify sensible points for measurement

o seek permission of the owners of the environments

o make an assessment of the necessary resources and manpower
to undertake the study

o appoint a coordinator

o initiate discussions on access to the data collected

Action: Torben Nielsen Make slides of the Traffic Measure-
ment presentation available in the RIPE document store.

The NCC offered to coordinate this in Europe. Daniele Bovio
and Oliver Martin volunteered to help seek agreement for
access to measurement points.

Action: NCC To keep in touch with Torben and disseminate
information within RIPE as the measure- ment project contin-
ues.

16. Date, place and time of next meeting

The next meeting is to be held in Prague on January 25-27.
Audiocast is intended but may not be possible if the local
infrastructure cannot support it. The technical demonstra-
tions are not on the agenda at present, but if volunteers
come forward to organise them, they can be included into the
usual 3 day RIPE meeting. The location for the 15th RIPE
meeting was proposed and agreed upon Amsterdam for 27-29th
April 1993. An invitation has been received for a RIPE
meeting to be held in Lisbon. A date was suggested - Janu-
ary 1994.

17. A.O.B.

17.1. Request from the EAT - Peter Lothberg

Request for groups willing to pilot OSPF and Dual IS-IS as
IGP for EBONE. Please report to Jean- Michel Jouanigot.
EBONE are interested in hearing from those who have any
experience with OSPF and Dual IS-IS.

17.2. EBONE skipper

Peter Lothberg has signed a contract accepting the position
of EBONE skipper.

17.3. Pisa

Daniele Bovio announced that late registration for the Pisa
meeting on November 3-5 would now be cheaper due to exchange
rate fluctuations.

17.4. RIPE NCC promotional leaflets

The revised RIPE NCC leaflets on "Interactive Information
Server" and the "Network Management Database" were approved
subject to minor modifications.

17.5. Mapping

Prior to the meeting Hans Nussbacher resigned as chairman of
the Mapping Group. Daniele Bovio accepted an invitation to
become the new chairman of the group. However, the mapping
group did not formally convene at this meeting. Instead
Daniele Bovio presented his thoughts on the possible future
direction of work for the group. He considered the follow-
ing tasks as important and immedi- ate:

o to consider whether the mapping group was in fact needed

o to consider what the goals of the group and the workplan
should be and the best way to achieve these goals.

Action: Daniele Bovio prepare a document for consideration
at the next RIPE meeting, but a message will also be sent to
the Ripe-list asking for input on this activity.

17.6. The User Services Area (Joyce Reynolds)

A paper giving summary of the work of the IETF working
groups in the User Services Area was dis- tributed to those
who attended the NIDUS working group and was available to
members of the audience who were interested. Also available
were copies of the NISI-wg "NIC template" Those who did not
receive the information can do so by contacting Joyce Rey-
nolds at <jkrey _at_ isi _dot_ edu>.

A presentation was given by Joyce to the new working groups
in this area. The four new working groups are:

17.6.1. Integration, Internet Information Resources (IIIR).

IIIR is chartered to facilitate interoperability between
Internet Information Services and to develop, specify, and
align protocols designed to integrate the plethora of Inter-
net information services (WAIS, archie, Prospero, etc.) into
a single "virtually unified information service. For more
details send mail to: iiir _at_ merit _dot_ edu

17.6.2. Network Information Retrieval (NIR).

This working group is chartered to increase the useful base
of information about networked infor- mation retrieval
tools, their developers, interested organisations, and other
activities that relate to the production, dissemination, and
support of NIR tools, NIR is a cooperative effort of the
IETF, RARE and CNI. For more details contact:
nir _at_ cc.mcgill _dot_ ca

17.6.3. Universal Resource Identifiers (URI)

URI is chartered to define a set of standards for the
encoding of system independent Resource Location and Iden-
tification information for the use of Internet information
services. Send mail to uri _at_ bunyip _dot_ com for more information.

17.6.4. Whois and Network Information Lookup Service
(WNILS)

The purpose of WNILS is to expand and define the standard
for WHOIS services, to resolve issues associated with he
variations in access, and to promote a consistent and
predictable service across the network. Contact ietf-
wnils _at_ ucdavis _dot_ edu for more information.

The new working groups have a common architecture and will
work together to eliminate redun- dancy.

17.7. HEAnet (Niall O'Reilly)

A HEAnet NIC will be formed, employing one person initially.
Thanks were expressed to the RIPE community for their valu-
able support.

18. Closing

Rob Blokzijl thanked the participants, with special thanks
to the local organiser Philippe-Andre Prindeville. The 13th
RIPE meeting was declared closed.

Open Actions

The open action list below is sorted by the first name of
the primary responsible person as this is what our tools
permit us to do easily and automagically.

Action: Antonio Blasco Bonito To make a proposal on how to
do general purpose extensions to the database in a gen- eral
manner.

Action: Bernhard Stockman - Tell Matti Rehndal to contact
Marten Terpstra on issue of secondary name servers in
Europe.

Action: Bob Day and Daniel Karrenberg Align the common
explanatory document about IP number registration and the
common template.

Action: Bob Day Circulate draft of an explanatory document
about IP number registration.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg prepare a document to reflect the
RIPE position and circulate it on the ripe list.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Circulate a draft of a common IP
number registration template.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg and Wilfried Woeber prepare a for-
mal recommendation for input to RARE on a the ownership and
"acceptable use" of the database ".

Action: Daniel Karrenberg to circulate new draft object
definition for Autonomous System objects to the mailing list
(and Ruediger Volk).

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Coordination of vendor presenta-
tions at the next RIPE technical session.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Make a proposal on how to delete
an object from the database.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg/Marten Terpstra. To announce
operation of db-wg group mailing list on the ripe-list.

Action: Daniele Bovio prepare a document for consideration
at the next RIPE meeting, but a message will also be sent to
the Ripe-list asking for input on this activity.

Action: Erik-Jan Bos: Produce a recommendations document on
security issues. Prepare for next technical session.

Action: Francis Dupont and Milan Sterba: Produce a cookbook
on DNS. First version ready at the next RIPE meeting. Input
on the contents of the document is requested.
- 33 -


Action: Geza Turchanyi and Nandor Horvath Agreed to work on
the survey of the availability of existing information with
respect to the RIPE document store.

Action: Glenn Kowack investigate and catalogue points raised
under Item

Action: Hank Nussbacher and Don Stikvoort: Write a charter
for the RIPE mapping working group.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot and Marten Terpstra examine
"non standard" use of fields. Further discussions are
necessary.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Discussions regarding the
Routing Policy Description Form. Discuss this with Jessica
Yu.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Make available NLC software
via anonymous FTP (via NCC).

Action: Joyce Reynolds Keep RIPE informed about developments
around the new US NIC (NSF NIS contract award).

Action: Marten Terpstra Changes in the database format.
Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing.

Action: Marten Terpstra Collect information regarding the
Second Root Name Server. The relevant IETF working group
will be contacted regarding global requirements.

Action: Marten Terpstra To evaluate Domain Debugging Tools.

Action: Marten Terpstra To progress GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC
exchange format discussions

Action: Milan Sterba and Geza Turchanyi: Evaluate and con-
sider nature of information for NIDUS.

Action: Milan Sterba To work on draft proposal concerning
the resource object and to circulate to the db-wg mailing
list.

Action: Milan Sterba Produce CEEC report version 5.

Action: Milan Sterba Refine proposal for a new RIPE database
object for resource information, to specify infor- mation on
resource type, access methods and form of the data. Circu-
late proposal to the new mailing list for vote.

Action: Milan Sterba To circulate Link item proposal and
circulate to new db-wg mailing list.

Action: NCC Routing object, routing privilege update.
- 34 -


Action: NCC Set up db-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net mailing list.

Action: NCC To keep in touch with Torben and disseminate
information within RIPE as the measure- ment project contin-
ues.

Action: NCC. To include the operational contact attribute
in all object definitions besides persons

Action: Ruediger Volk Francis Dupont Collect DNS tools and
make available to public via NCC Archives

Action: Torben Nielsen Make slides of the Traffic Measure-
ment presentation available in the RIPE document store.
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