From henk at ripe.net Mon Feb 9 18:17:05 2004 From: henk at ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE-NCC)) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:17:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Draft minutes TT-WG meeting @ RIPE47 Message-ID: Dear All, Please find below the draft minutes of the TT-WG meeting @ RIPE47, comments to the list or to me privately please, Henk Test Traffic WG - RIPE47 - Amsterdam - 28/29 January 2004 --------------------------------------------------------- Chair: Alex Tudor (Agilent) Scribes: Mark Santcroos & Ruben van Staveren (RIPE NCC) Attendees: Slot 1: about 40, Slot 2: about 30. Slot 1, Wednesday January 28, 14:00-16:00 Agenda: ------- 1. Intro / Administrative Matters * Scribe * List of attendees * Minutes * Agenda Bashing 2. TTM developments at the RIPE NCC, Henk Uijterwaal, RIPE NCC 3. Delay Tomography: calculating estimations for network internal delays from end-to-end TTM measurements, Jan-Pascal Best, TU Delft, NL 4. Traceroute quality improvements, Marnix Kaart, Delft, NL 5. SCoLE: Scalable Cooperative Latency Estimation, Michal Szymaniak, VU Amsterdam 1. Intro / Administrative Matters --------------------------------- Alex opens the meeting at 14:00 and welcomes all attendees. Mark Santcroos & Ruben van Staveren volunteer to be scribes for both sessions. The chair asks how attendees have read the minutes of the previous session. A handful of people did read them. There were no comments on the minutes on the mailing list or at the meeting and the chair proposes to declare the minutes final. The attendees agree. The chair points out that the usefulness of the meeting strongly depends on the attendees. He asks for feedback on the program, either by private conversation, in public or on the mailing list. Please don't be shy, the success of the WG depends on you. 2. TTM developments at the RIPE NCC, Henk Uijterwaal, RIPE NCC -------------------------------------------------------------- Slides will be available soon at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/index.html#tt Henk presented the usual status update of TTM effort at the RIPE NCC. The most important point is that effective 1/1/2004, the service fee rates have been dropped to 1000 euro's/year for the first test box, 500 for any further boxes. Also, the data disclosure policy has been changed, the new version is available as RIPE document 300. Q: What is the time lag in making the data available: A: Immediately for the owner of the box, everyone else the following day. Henk also presented the RISwhois tool. Q: Can the riswhois tool be used to view in the past ? A: The tool doesn't do that, but one can download RIS data for that Finally, a long standing work item was finished, the so-called 2NIC project, was finished. This allows a user to give a test box a second IPv4 address and measure along different paths. Q: Regarding 2NIC, does the 2nd address in a testbox require a 2nd NIC ? A: Yes. However, the 1u test-box has 2 NIC's in the standard configuration, in the 4u model one has to add a card. There where no further questions at the end of the talk. Alex emphasizes the use of TTM in your business when the AUP opens up: think about applications. 3. Delay Tomography: calculating estimations for network internal delays from end-to-end TTM measurements, Jan-Pascal Best, TU Delft, NL ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slides at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-tt-tudelt.pdf The first results on their We present the first results of our work on network delay tomography, mathematical methods to derive internal delays from the Test Traffic end-to-end delay measurements were presented. This analysis method could be employed to generate more detailed automated warning notofications. Q: How much of the data do you use? A: It's a lot of data, we are dropping a lot of non-useful data, like failed traceroutes Q: How long does it take to process? A: A few hours currently. depends on memory and such Q: Would it help to calibrate if people could supply you with numbers of known links A: A little There was some discussion about the Distribution of error from synthesized delay graph. 4. Traceroute quality improvements, Marnix Kaart, Delft, NL ----------------------------------------------------------- This talk had to be cancelled as the speaker was ill. 5. SCoLE: Scalable Cooperative Latency Estimation, Michal Szymaniak, VU Amsterdam -------------------------------------------------- Slides at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-tt-scole.pdf This paper discusses SCoLE, a scalable system to estimate Internet latencies. SCoLE is based on GNP, which models Internet latencies in an N-dimensional Euclidean space. In contrast to GNP and other GNP-based systems, however, SCoLE does not employ any global space whose parameters must typically be negotiated by the participating hosts. Instead, it allows each host to construct its ``private'' space and model inter-host latencies in that space. The private space parameters as well as the modeling algorithm can be adjusted on a per-host basis, which improves system flexibility. More importantly, the mutual independence of private spaces results in higher SCoLE scalability, which is bound neither by the global negotiation of space parameters nor by global knowledge of any kind. We show that latency estimates performed in different private spaces are highly correlated. This allows SCoLE to be used in large-scale applications where consistent latency estimates need to be performed simultaneously by many independent hosts. Q: About the error margin ... 50 precent seems a bit high. Do you have plans about getting that down? A: It's estimation, but the answer is that it all depends on the landmarks. 4 papers discussing the possible location of the landmarks, this is still research A remark was made that this technology could be an alternative to the Akamai technology Q: How do you calculate the RTT from a webserver A: We use the TCP connection setup to measure it? Q: As an example, when the HTTP application is used on TTM boxes, how many traffic would it generate ? A: depends The Test Traffic session for Wednesday was concluded by a demo from Jan-Pascal Slot 2, Thursday 29 January 2004, 11:00-12:30 Agenda: ------- 6. Inline measurements: Exploiting IPv6 programmability, Francisco Garcia, Agilent Labs, UK 7. Reordering of IP Packets in Internet, Xiaoming Zhou, TU Delft 8. AOB Chair asks how many people currently present here owns a testbox, about 4 or 5 reactions. 6. Inline measurements: Exploiting IPv6 programmability, Francisco Garcia, Agilent Labs, UK -------------------------------------------------------- Slides at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-tt-mpower.pdf The primary focus of active and passive measurement techniques has been on characterising end-to-end path properties, and modeling network traffic mainly through backbone link monitoring. Both active and passive streams exhibit particular limitations reflecting the fact that they are independent and accessional mechanisms (protocols, tools, etc.) trying to infer the properties of network traffic. The continuous growth in mobile and wireless markets and their integration over IP stresses the importance for future networks to be better-managed (measure-monitored-controlled) through native mechanisms, built-into the network functionality. This is also reflected in current measurement group activities of the IETF like the Internet Measurement Research Group, Passive Sampling and IP Flow Information Export. An alternative approach, applicable to IPv6 networks, is to exploit the modular and programmable design philosophy of the IPv6 protocol itself to natively instrument measurement functionality where and when it is required. This presentation will introduce such a concept, which we refer too as in-line measurements, present a case for their use and demonstrate the feasibility based around early experimentation with the technique at Lancaster University and Agilent Laboratories in Scotland. Discussion on timestamping issues: Q: How do you handle the tail in the delay distribution? A: Default ways, it still is a "problem" for us, as it is for others. On the use of extension headers: Q: Have you studied extension headers making the packets to big? A: Lower the MTU, so we can handle TCP size. Q: Have you considered using application level added headers. A: Yes, but we want to use something mainstream. 7. Reordering of IP Packets in Internet, Xiaoming Zhou, TU Delft ---------------------------------------------------------------- Slides at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-47/presentations/ripe47-reordering-tt.pdf The authors have analyzed the measurements of the end-to-end packet reordering by tracing UDP packets between 12 testboxes of RIPE NCC. We showed that reordering quite often happens in Internet. For bursts of 50 100-byte UDP packets, there were about 56% of all the streams arrived at the destinations out-of-order. We studied the extent of the reordering in these streams, and observed most reordered streams have a relative small number of reordered packets: about 14% of all the streams have more than 2 reordered packets in a bursts of 50 UDP packets. In addition, we showed that packet reordering has a significant impact on UDP performance since the reordering add a high cost of recovering from the reordering on the end host. On the other hand, packet reordering does not have a significant impact on the UDP delay. We also compared the reordered stream ratios in the different directions of Internet paths, and observed that reordered stream ratios are asymmetric, but they vary largely from testbox-to-testbox. A comment was made that for for VOIP reordering is not important, as long as your within the limits of your receiving buffer. There was no real conclusion about this. 8. AOB ------ Henk asked the WG if some of the topics discussed here should be taken up by the WG. - OWAMP, should this be added to the TTM service. Implementing it is a considerable amount of work but it would improve the usefulness of the service as well. - SCoLe, Delay Tomography: should the NCC make these tools available or play any other role there? He invited comments, either by private mail or on the mailing list. The chair suggested to do a session on "how I use my test-box" with short presentations from a number of TB owners. There were a few volunteers during the meeting. Alex will discuss details with him offline. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal at ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly. (David Brent). From henk at ripe.net Thu Feb 19 17:24:26 2004 From: henk at ripe.net (Henk Uijterwaal (RIPE NCC)) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:24:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: New Document available: RIPE-300 (fwd) Message-ID: New RIPE Document Announcement -------------------------------------- A new document is available from the RIPE document store. Ref: ripe-300 Title: Test Traffic Measurement Service Data Disclosure Policy Author: Henk Uijterwaal Date: 23 January 2004 Format: PDF=149573 TXT=10949 Obsoletes: ripe-180 Obsoleted by: Updates: Updated by: Short content description ----------- This document describes the Data Disclosure Policy for the the data collected by the RIPE NCC Test Traffic Measurement Service (TTM). It describes who can access the data from this service, what one can do with the data and conditions that must be fulfilled before data can be published outside the RIPE Test Traffic Working Group (TT-WG) and the organisations hosting the test boxes. NOTE: This document has been posted as a draft on November 25th, no comments were received (except for one or two typo's). -------------- Accessing the RIPE document store --------------------------------- You can access the RIPE documents in HTML format via our website at the following URL: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-300.html The RIPE Document Store is also available via anonymous FTP to ftp.ripe.net, in the directory ripe/docs. The URLs for the new documents on the FTP-server are: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-300.pdf PDF version ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-300.txt plain text version ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal at ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre WWW: http://www.ripe.net/home/henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Process and Procedure are the last hiding place of people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly. (David Brent).