From JimFleming at unety.net Sun Aug 2 18:34:49 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:34:49 -0500 Subject: Abuse of ccTLD powers Message-ID: <07c201bdbe33$791264a0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: mueller To: apple at apnic.net ; anr-talk at anr.org Date: Sunday, August 02, 1998 11:34 AM Subject: Abuse of ccTLD powers >Apple members: >If you read the following news article, you will see how control of a >ccTLD can be abused for economic reasons. This is why many of us coming >out of Geneva are concerned about the efforts of ccTLD registrars to >organize themselves as a political bloc. I hope any apple member who is >interested in maintaining a free and open Internet will attend the >Singapore meeting with this in mind. I also hope that the Asia Pacific >Internet Association members who are part of the IFWP steering committee >will make it clear that they oppose such absuses, otherwise they may >begin to lose the trust of the international community. >--MM > >http://www.sjmercury.com/asia/center/japan080198.htm > >* APPLe: To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apple-request at apnic.net * > Milton, This is not the only ccTLD with such practices. Jon Postel's IANA has allowed people to obtain top level domains and claim they have the support of the government. When challenged, they claim they have the support of the people. When really challenged, they claim to have the support of ISPs. In some cases, they are that ISP. In other words, they endorse themselves. This is one of the reasons why experts in this area have concluded that TLDs should be TLDs because there is no way to clean up the existing mess and little benefit in doing it. The general public needs to be better educated about the fraud and corruption in ccTLDs. In some areas of the world, this is done and their solution is to send everyone to .COM. That is one of the reasons why it is so crowded. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Mon Aug 3 10:44:10 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Mon Aug 3 10:41:50 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (Veni Markovski) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:41:50 +0300 Subject: Abuse of ccTLD powers Message-ID: <01bdbeba$8f15d890$890fa8c0@nt.bol.bg> Jim, please forward to the appropriate lists, as I'm not subscribed to most of them) More than 6 months ago, when I was telling each and everyone of you about the problems with the .bg TLDA (see details at http://www.bol.bg/protest/ - English version is also available), Mr. Postel answered me that there's no conflict of interests, since I am the only one to have written him?! The Bulgarian TLDA is behaving in total disaccordance with the current RIPE, IANA and Bulgarian Laws; they are combining at the same time ISP and a public service. They've decided to introduce a tax for registering new domain ($ 50), plus a yearly tax ($ 50); that's more than twice as high as in the US, yet in Bulgaria average monthly payment is $ 100! This brings them about $ 20-30 thousand per year - money that could be used for the good of all the Internet in Bulgaria, and not only for the profit of one private company which is misusing it's monopolist situation Noone from abroad except for 8 European ISOC (http://www.isoc.bg/disc_e.htm) representatives supported us in our protest. Mr. Postel is obviously and unonditionally taking side of the current TLDA in Bulgaria, eventhough they've shown their disrespect towards the Internet community in the country. He could have at least asked for more details from the Internet Society - Bulgaria, and from other interested parties to learn the trutn. regards, Veni Markovski, Chairman, the Internet Society - Bulgaria p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria phone +359-2-9809666, phone/fax: () 9806431 p.s. off topic. I had a domain veni.bg, which was stopped, eventhough I've paid in advance some money, and have specifically expressed my interest in keeping my domain but in return for my money I wanted a contract from the .bg TLDA. The contract was never received, but the domain was stopped. Now I had to register veni.com to be able to have private correspondence. >-----Original Message----- >From: mueller >To: apple at apnic.net ; anr-talk at anr.org >Date: Sunday, August 02, 1998 11:34 AM >Subject: Abuse of ccTLD powers > > >>Apple members: >>If you read the following news article, you will see how control of a >>ccTLD can be abused for economic reasons. This is why many of us coming >>out of Geneva are concerned about the efforts of ccTLD registrars to >>organize themselves as a political bloc. I hope any apple member who is >>interested in maintaining a free and open Internet will attend the >>Singapore meeting with this in mind. I also hope that the Asia Pacific >>Internet Association members who are part of the IFWP steering committee >>will make it clear that they oppose such absuses, otherwise they may >>begin to lose the trust of the international community. >>--MM >> >>http://www.sjmercury.com/asia/center/japan080198.htm >> >>* APPLe: To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe" to apple-request at apnic.net * >> > >Milton, > >This is not the only ccTLD with such practices. >Jon Postel's IANA has allowed people to obtain >top level domains and claim they have the >support of the government. When challenged, >they claim they have the support of the people. >When really challenged, they claim to have the >support of ISPs. In some cases, they are that >ISP. In other words, they endorse themselves. > >This is one of the reasons why experts in this >area have concluded that TLDs should be TLDs >because there is no way to clean up the existing >mess and little benefit in doing it. The general >public needs to be better educated about the >fraud and corruption in ccTLDs. In some areas >of the world, this is done and their solution is >to send everyone to .COM. That is one of the >reasons why it is so crowded. > > >Jim Fleming >Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Thu Aug 27 18:22:08 MET DST 1998 --------- From fay at ripe.net Thu Aug 27 18:21:48 1998 From: fay at ripe.net (Fay Howard) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:21:48 +0200 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <199808271621.SAA07732@office.ripe.net> Dear ccTLD Managers, As previously announced, a CENTR workshop is to be held for managers of TLD registries in Edinburgh 21 September 1998. The meeting is schedule between 10.00 and 17.00 and will take place at The University of Edinburgh, George Square Complex, William Robertson Building, Edinburgh, Scotland. As with the technical workshop, the aim of the managerial workshop will be to encourage discussion and exchange of experiences. Discussion leaders for each topic will give presentations and then open the debate to all participants. Four proposed topics are listed below. If you manage a ccTLD and wish to attend, please reply completing the template at the end of this email. Places are restricted to 26 and so initially we must limit participation to one person per TLD. Preference will be given to CENTR participants should applications exceed 26. Developing local TLD policy and naming rules: Many ccTLD are at some stage in the process of restructuring their registry and/or reviewing their current naming policy example being: - Creation of a new organization to replace work done on a voluntary basis by a university or academic network. - Introduction of charges for registering domain names or review of existing charging model. - Review of naming policy and naming restriction (liberal stance of first-come-first-served versus strict naming policy) - Government requirement Whatever changes are envisaged, it is often necessary to consult with the local networking community/service providers and even the general internet using public within the country. The participants will see examples of how this process has been handled in some countries followed by open discussion on how to manage consultation and to "sell" the changes to the public. Possible areas of harmonization for ccTLDs There are many organizations keen to document the practices of TLD registries around the world and the CENTR project has been collecting information on the participating ccTLDs. There is often talk of 'best practice' and even standardization of ccTLD rules and policies. With one of the key requirements of ccTLDs being autonomy and with the diversity of economies, legal systems and cultures, is there any room for harmonization? This session will examine information gathered in accordance with the CENTR template and also discuss areas where some level of harmonization may be achieved. Example might be who-is database policy, quality, pricing structure. Pooling Resources and Joint Funding One of the roles of the established CENTR should be to coordinate or commission projects on behalf of members. Pooling of resources or sharing the cost of software developments for example would be a significant benefit of CENTR membership. This item relates also to discussion at the technical workshop at which there was general agreement that the development of BIND Software is very important and should be supported by ccTLDs. A short presentation will be given by David Conrad of Internet Software Consortium on how CENTR members, as funders, could have input into the direction that new BIND developments take. Discussion will then be opened to identify other areas where CENTR can initiate work or coordinate the pooling of ideas/manpower on behalf of its members. Who-is Policy There has already been some debate on the issue of acceptable use of who-is database information. The session will begin with a presentation on the problems of confidentiality, misuse and possible solutions. There will also be a presentation on possible legitimate and acceptable use of who-is data before the debate is opened up to the participants. ************************** REGISTRATION FOR CENTR WORKSHOP I wish to attend the CENTR workshop for Managers of TLD Rgistries Name: Organization and country: Position held: Any other Comments: ************************* -------- Logged at Thu Aug 27 23:57:27 MET DST 1998 --------- From jc.praud at ludexpress.com Fri Aug 28 00:02:25 1998 From: jc.praud at ludexpress.com (Jean-Christophe Praud) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:02:25 +0200 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers References: <199808271621.SAA07732@office.ripe.net> Message-ID: <35E5D771.C1501B73@ludexpress.com> Fay Howard wrote: > > > If you manage a ccTLD and wish to attend, please reply completing the template > at the end of this email. > Places are restricted to 26 and so initially we must limit participation to > one person per TLD. Preference will be given to CENTR participants should > applications exceed 26. Mmm. You should include "alternative" cccTLDs managers, too. > There is often talk of 'best practice' and even standardization of ccTLD rules > and policies. With one of the key requirements of ccTLDs being autonomy and > with the diversity of economies, legal systems and cultures, is there any room > for harmonization? It should. You should ask Artur Grzymala and Veni Markovski about their respective ccTLDs policies. > One of the roles of the established CENTR should be to coordinate or > commission projects on behalf of members. Pooling of resources or sharing the > cost of software developments for example would be a significant benefit of > CENTR membership. It would be for all Internet participants, too... The IRSC (http://www.irsc.ah.net ) has already established a so-called "alternative" root servers network enabling virtually anybody to create his/her own TLD(s), with the agreement and the cooperation of the other IRSC members. The IRSC is supported by ISPs, IPPs, etc. as well as end-users. We are currently serving an estimated share of 30% of global DNS traffic. Some of our european members (see above) have created "alternative" cccTLDs, because of their ccTLDs politics or private monopols. Best regards, -- Jean-Christophe PRAUD - LUDEXPRESS http://www.ludexpress.com http://www.nicwine.net http://www.irsc.ah.net 3:213 WINE Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu n'gah Bill R'lyeh Wgah'nagl fhtagn -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 06:40:05 MET DST 1998 --------- From hank at ibm.net.il Fri Aug 28 06:39:11 1998 From: hank at ibm.net.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:39:11 +0300 (IDT) Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <35E5D771.C1501B73@ludexpress.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have to withdraw its support. -Hank > Fay Howard wrote: > > > > > > If you manage a ccTLD and wish to attend, please reply completing the template > > at the end of this email. > > Places are restricted to 26 and so initially we must limit participation to > > one person per TLD. Preference willbe given to CENTR participants should > > applications exceed 26. > > Mmm. You should include "alternative" cccTLDs managers, too. > > > There is often talk of 'best practice' and even standardization of ccTLD rules > > and policies. With one of the key requirements of ccTLDs being autonomy and > > with the diversity of economies, legal systems and cultures, is there any room > > for harmonization? > > It should. You should ask Artur Grzymala and Veni > Markovski about their respective ccTLDs policies. > > > One of the roles of the established CENTR should be to coordinate or > > commission projects on behalf of members. Pooling of resources or sharing the > > cost of software developments for example would be a significant benefit of > > CENTR membership. > > It would be for all Internet participants, too... > > The IRSC (http://www.irsc.ah.net ) has already established a so-called > "alternative" root servers network enabling virtually anybody to create > his/her own TLD(s), with the agreement and the cooperation of the other > IRSC members. > > The IRSC is supported by ISPs, IPPs, etc. as well as end-users. > We are currently serving an estimated share of 30% of global DNS > traffic. > > Some of our european members (see above) have created"alternative" > cccTLDs, because of their ccTLDs politics or private monopols. > > Best regards, > > -- > Jean-Christophe PRAUD - LUDEXPRESS http://www.ludexpress.com > http://www.nicwine.net http://www.irsc.ah.net 3:213 WINE > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu n'gah Bill R'lyeh Wgah'nagl fhtagn > Hank Nussbacher -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 09:15:15 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 09:12:28 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:12:28 +0300 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <00bf01bdd253$ebe4c980$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Very interesting. Why not allow cccTLDs to this meeting? The situation in Bulgaria shows very clearly that cccTLD is a _must_ if we want free and democratic Internet. Else, we'll continiue registering domain names in the .com, .net domains, as they are more than 2 times cheaper than in Bulgaria, and their computers are faster than the "hostmaster team" at .bg TLDA, which "team" consists only of one person. >On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > >If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have >to withdraw its support. > >-Hank -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:18:45 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 11:20:50 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:20:50 +0300 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from the two-letter country codes? If everything is OK in france and israel, the situation in bulgaria is pretty bad, and since Jon Postel wouldn't read all the mail, web sites, etc. about this problem, but say "there's no problem in the .bg TLDA", how are we supposed to solve it?? I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to find an alternative. With all my respect for Israel and France, I remain sincerely, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -----Original Message----- From: Annie Renard To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Jean-Christophe Praud ; Fay Howard ; centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; 'Artur Grzymala' ; Veni Markovski ; Adam Todd ; Jim Fleming ; renard at gaillac.inria.fr Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:43 AM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > > If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have > to withdraw its support. > >idem for .fr > > Annie > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:42:57 MET DST 1998 --------- From edd at aic.net Fri Aug 28 11:41:49 1998 From: edd at aic.net (E D Danielyan) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:41:49 +0500 (GMT) Subject: BG TLD In-Reply-To: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> from "veni markovski" at Aug 28, 98 12:20:50 pm Message-ID: <199808280941.OAA12608@aic.net> Dear Veni: > I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The > current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to > find an alternative. With all respect for you, Veni, you do not have to find an alternative - you have to defend your viewpoint. I'd advise you to forward all correspondence between you and Dr. Postel to this list for public consideration; afterwards, if you believe you're right, file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel isn't a king. Yours Edgar AM NIC -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 11:48:05 MET DST 1998 --------- From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Fri Aug 28 11:47:54 1998 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:47:54 +0200 Subject: BG TLD In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:41:49 +0500. <199808280941.OAA12608@aic.net> References: <199808280941.OAA12608@aic.net> Message-ID: <199808280947.LAA20419@kantoor.ripe.net> Edgar, *very* well said. This has ben pointed out to Veni numerous times in private correspondence. Daniel > E D Danielyan writes: > > ... file wrongful > conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet > community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights > of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to > defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel > isn't a king. -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 13:46:37 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 13:41:07 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (Veni Markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:41:07 +0300 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <01bdd278$be905380$890fa8c0@nt.bol.bg> Well, I not only sent hundreds of e-mail, putting together all the emails, conversation and seminars held in Bulgaria about it, I've also asked and have received a positive answer to put this "Open letter" in the web - you can see it at many locations, including http://www.bol.bg/protest/ and http://www.isoc.bg, and http://www.kit.bg and many other. But I'll write you more later on today, when I can take a better look at your mails. It's been a busy week, and for the past 2 days I am having a flu and about 38 degrees C. have a good weekend, yours as usual sincerely, veni -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Karrenberg To: E D Danielyan Cc: veni at isoc.bg ; centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net Date: 28 aWGUST 1998 G. 12:49 Subject: Re: BG TLD > >Edgar, > >*very* well said. This has ben pointed out to Veni numerous times in >private correspondence. > >Daniel > > > E D Danielyan writes: > > > > ... file wrongful > > conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet > > community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights > > of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to > > defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel > > isn't a king. > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 14:31:55 MET DST 1998 --------- From wchao at post.uni-bielefeld.de Fri Aug 28 14:31:42 1998 From: wchao at post.uni-bielefeld.de (=?BIG5?B?Vy5MLkNoYW8gu6+xqa3b?=) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:31:42 +0200 Subject: replace .tw with .rc Message-ID: <19980828143142.52209@dee.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> Hallo, could any alternate root server help us to do this? The official name of Taiwan is "Republic of China"(ROC), not a province of People's Republic of China(PRC), but in the ISO 3166 Taiwan TW TWN 158 They use the data from the UN, which the RC is not a member of. You could visit http://www.gio.gov.tw/ to see the opinion of the goverment. An entry in ISO 3166 like China, Republic of RC ROC 158 would be right and better. How can I change that? Yours sincerely, Wei-Lun Chao -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 15:36:52 MET DST 1998 --------- From eva at nic-se.se Fri Aug 28 14:59:13 1998 From: eva at nic-se.se (Eva =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=F6lich?=) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:59:13 +0200 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <199808271621.SAA07732@office.ripe.net> Message-ID: At 18:21 1998-08-27 +0200, Fay Howard wrote: > >************************** >REGISTRATION FOR CENTR WORKSHOP > >I wish to attend the CENTR workshop for Managers of TLD Rgistries > >Name: Eva Fr?lich >Organization and country: .se, Sweden > >Position held: Technical Manager > >Any other Comments: > >************************* > _______________________________________________________________________ Eva Fr?lich e-mail: eva at nic-se.se NIC-SE, Box 5774, 114 87 Stockholm http://www.nic-se.se -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:16:52 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at AH.NET Fri Aug 28 05:49:27 1998 From: at at AH.NET (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:49:27 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <35E5D771.C1501B73@ludexpress.com> References: <199808271621.SAA07732@office.ripe.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980828134927.01902970@mail.ah.local> At 00:02 28/08/98 +0200, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: >> If you manage a ccTLD and wish to attend, please reply completing the >> at the end of this email. >> Places are restricted to 26 and so initially we must limit participation to >> one person per TLD. Preference will be given to CENTR participants should >> applications exceed 26. > >Mmm. You should include "alternative" cccTLDs managers, too. Yes, I think it would be wise to include holders of 3 letter Country Codes as well. There are several now: Bulgaria .BUL Veni Markovski Poland .POL Artur Grzymala Australia .AUS Adam Todd New Zealand .NZL Alan Brown PNG .PNG Application in process And more are joining every day. Literally. >> There is often talk of 'best practice' and even standardization of ccTLD >> and policies. With one of the key requirements of ccTLDs being autonomy and >> with the diversity of economies, legal systems and cultures, is there any >> for harmonization? > >It should. You should ask Artur Grzymala and Veni >Markovski about their respective ccTLDs policies. Ask me about AUS practises. We made a dramatic change in July because of a major Fraud incident caused by a Registrar. >> One of the roles of the established CENTR should be to coordinate or >> commission projects on behalf of members. Pooling of resources or sharing >> cost of software developments for example would be a significant benefit of >> CENTR membership. > >It would be for all Internet participants, too... There are already many Shared Registry and Registra data base processes developed by Enhanced DNS operators. Some are commercially available, some are run by companies strictly interested in licencing the use of, but not the software. Such as AHNET for example who run replicated Databases for Registries and Registrars under contract. This eliminated much of the cost of administration of a ccTLD and allows the technology to be developed far quicker where needed. Unfortunatly, AHNET needs ccTLD operators to at least provide a number of diverse TLD Hosting servers, although it's happy to offer a Primary or at least secondary hosting for TLD data. >The IRSC (http://www.irsc.ah.net ) has already established a so-called >"alternative" root servers network enabling virtually anybody to create Enhanced Root Server Network. >his/her own TLD(s), with the agreement and the cooperation of the other >IRSC members. IRSC is only responsible for the syncronisation of Root Server Members. Anyone who wishes to apply for a TLD can do so via an RSC according to that RSC's policy. Many RSCs also have DNS hosting facilities - often for free - that can be used, so infrastructure as described above can be quickly reduced to give the consumer a faster better response. Even less TLD host servers to choose from maybe in the long term. But it's a cooperative effort. AURSC has a fairly strict policy on TLD entry. ccTLD's can enter after submission of a policy, but AURSC will not specifically Authorise the policy acceptence as AURSC is not familiar with local laws and rules. AURSC will however suggest any necessary fair modifications that should be taken into consideration. After AURSC has approved acceptence the TLD is added to AURSC and distributed to the IRSC members. This is working very well now. Anyone who runs a Root Server (proper Root Server, we can test and even help set one up if required) can enter IRSC by applying to IRSC. >The IRSC is supported by ISPs, IPPs, etc. as well as end-users. >We are currently serving an estimated share of 30% of global DNS >traffic. Fair estimate - it's growing, I noticed about 8 new ISP's from Europe and the USA start using AURSC this week. >Some of our european members (see above) have created "alternative" >cccTLDs, because of their ccTLDs politics or private monopols. Lets say "Optional" rather than Alternative. Although the words are synonomous, some people have hurt the word Alternative. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:17:31 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at AH.NET Fri Aug 28 07:44:42 1998 From: at at AH.NET (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:44:42 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: References: <35E5D771.C1501B73@ludexpress.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980828154442.0190b210@mail.ah.local> At 07:39 28/08/98 +0300, Hank Nussbacher wrote: >On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > >If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have >to withdraw its support. Hank, I would like to explore with you the reasons behind your statement. Please feel free to discuss this with me in private. It would be appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:18:14 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 06:55:39 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:55:39 -0500 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <09de01bdd240$1d877b40$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Hank Nussbacher To: Jean-Christophe Praud Cc: Fay Howard ; centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; 'Artur Grzymala' ; Veni Markovski ; Adam Todd ; Jim Fleming Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 11:40 PM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers >On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > >If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have >to withdraw its support. > Out of curiosity, how do you classify TLDs as "alternate" ? Also, who in the government in Israel helps to set these policies ? Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:19:10 MET DST 1998 --------- From Annie.Renard at nic.fr Fri Aug 28 10:37:42 1998 From: Annie.Renard at nic.fr (Annie Renard) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:37:42 +0200 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:39:11 +0300. Message-ID: <199808280837.KAA20449@gaillac.inria.fr> In your previous mail you wrote: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have to withdraw its support. idem for .fr Annie -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:20:34 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Fri Aug 28 11:15:18 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:15:18 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <199808280837.KAA20449@gaillac.inria.fr> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980828191518.018af240@mail.ah.local> > In your previous mail you wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > > If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have > to withdraw its support. > >idem for .fr Annie as per my message to Hank, I'd like to discuss this with you off the lists. Please feel free to contact me as I'd like to hear why .FR feels this way. -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:21:18 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 13:00:18 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:00:18 -0500 Subject: .FR Message-ID: <0a5301bdd273$10cd3d80$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Annie Renard To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Jean-Christophe Praud ; Fay Howard ; centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; 'Artur Grzymala' ; Veni Markovski ; Adam Todd ; Jim Fleming ; renard at gaillac.inria.fr Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 3:42 AM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers > > In your previous mail you wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Jean-Christophe Praud wrote: > > If RIPE CENTR includes "alternate" cccTLDs in its charter, .il will have > to withdraw its support. > >idem for .fr > > Annie > Can you provide the contacts in the French government that endorse that position ? Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:22:00 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 13:07:14 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:07:14 -0500 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <0a6a01bdd274$0413fce0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: E D Danielyan To: veni at isoc.bg Cc: centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 4:43 AM Subject: Re: BG TLD > > >Dear Veni: > >> I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The >> current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to >> find an alternative. > >With all respect for you, Veni, you do not have to find an alternative - >you have to defend your viewpoint. I'd advise you to forward all correspondence >between you and Dr. Postel to this list for public consideration; afterwards, >if you believe you're right, file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in >your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: >if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and public's >responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and >Dr. Postel isn't a king. > >Yours >Edgar >AM NIC > > I agree and would further suggest that this be handled in the G3 region as much as possible with the help of the "neighbor net" community for the .BG TLD. In a growing Internet, Jon Postel or a small IANA staff will not be able to sort out all of the local issues. People in the "region" can help with that. That is one of the merits of socializing these discussions. Does anyone have the current "neighbor net" for the .BG TLD which I assume is in G3 ? Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:22:45 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Fri Aug 28 13:03:35 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:03:35 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980828210335.01948640@mail.ah.local> >If everything is OK in france and israel, the situation in bulgaria is >pretty bad, and since Jon Postel wouldn't read all the mail, web sites, etc. >about this problem, but say "there's no problem in the .bg TLDA", how are we >supposed to solve it?? > >I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The Interesting to see that an ISOC chapter was in fact petitioning the exact system so many people within ISOC seem to support. Yet in this case it's been totally worthless an a waste of many peoples productive time. Of course ISOC-BG and it's members in Bulgaria have found a solution that works for them. Is it up to the rest of the Internet community to IGNORE them and tell them to CONFORM or TOUGH? I recall much controversy over the use of different operating systems and browsers and othere such innovations. >current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have to >find an alternative. And so they have and it's working for them and growing. WHat right does anyone in the Internet have to tell Bulgaria and any other country that they they are "non existant" or not stakeholders or unimportant. I think their Protest, Action and Statements make them more important to the process we are currently in than ANY OTHER PROCESS THAT EXISTS IN THE WORLD TODAY. >With all my respect for Israel and France, >I remain >sincerely, > >Veni Markovski, >Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, >http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ >phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 >mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria I think that says it all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:23:37 MET DST 1998 --------- From BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu Fri Aug 28 15:55:00 1998 From: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu (Berislav Todorovic) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:55 +0100 Subject: replace .tw with .rc Message-ID: <1C67CC719A006EAF@etf.bg.ac.yu> >> could any alternate root server help us to do this? >> ... >> An entry in ISO 3166 like >> China, Republic of RC ROC 158 >> would be right and better. Using an alternate root server, you can do whatever you want, except: (1) You won't change the root zone maintained by the IANA. (2) You cannot change the ISO 3166 table (at all!). To solve (1), you'll have to contact IANA, but they strictly follow the ISO 3166 table. So, you must solve (2) first and that requires an official contact with the ISO 3166 authority from your government. As far as I heard, the authority which has to be contacted is located at DIN offices in Berlin. After your government gets a positive ack from Berlin, you must ask IANA what to do further. Hope this helps. ;-) Regards, Beri .-------. | --+-- | Berislav Todorovic, B.Sc.E.E. | E-mail: BERI at etf.bg.ac.yu | /|\ Hostmaster of the YU TLD | |-(-+-)-| School of Electrical Engineering | Phone: (+381-11) 3221-419 | \|/ Bulevar Revolucije 73 | 3370-106 | --+-- | 11000 Belgrade SERBIA, YUGOSLAVIA | Fax: (+381-11) 3248-681 `-------' -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:38:18 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 17:39:07 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:39:07 +0300 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <011b01bdd29a$2c8ee240$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> >I agree and would further suggest that >this be handled in the G3 region as much >as possible with the help of the "neighbor net" >community for the .BG TLD. In a growing >Internet, Jon Postel or a small IANA staff >will not be able to sort out all of the local >issues. People in the "region" can help >with that. That is one of the merits of >socializing these discussions. Well, I believe now that Jon Postel, as well as the current TLDAs have reached an agreement to keep the status quo as long as possible. Just read his mail to me, and then visit the web http://www.bol.bg/protest/ and chosse the English version. It's obvious that: a) he hasn't read them but replied to protect the current .bg TLDA. b) he has read them, but ignored it, to protect the current .bg TLDA. tell me which is the similarity:-) regards, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 17:43:07 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 17:34:06 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:34:06 +0300 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <00f901bdd299$783c7820$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> OK, Here are some messages that have been sent to some people & organizations, Daniel Karrenberg included: (number 2 and 4 are pretty interesting:-) I think I've done what's needed - organized group of people (rather, they came to me, but it's another story...), have them on the web, have Digsys at the Fair Trade Comission, etc, etc. However, it seems the wisest will be to advise the Government to take control over it - at least we can have control to some extent over the government via the parlament. ====== 1: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:13:37 +0200 (GMT+0200) >From: Veni Markovski >To: Daniel Karrenberg >Cc: Niall.oReilly at ucd.ie, burack at isoc.org, iana at iana.org, vcerf at mci.net, > Don Heath , Jon Postel >Subject: Re: RIPE meeting and the situation in Bulgarian TLDA > >On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > >> [cut] >Dear collegues, >I understand your position "If something is working, don't touch it", but >after all, and I am not going to get tired repeating it, our point is >that the current TLDA may keep on being a TLDA, but the rules after which >they conduct their behaviour should be created not by the TLDA himself, >but from an NGO. >You can read more about this idea at >http://www.ibm.com/othervoices/levine/february1398155624.phtml > >There is nothing wrong in our request. >There is something wrong in the fact that this simple request is being >turned down by the hostmaster, by IANA, and by RIPE. > >The Internet should not be a tool for unfair competition. >The Internet in Bulgaria will definitely NOT become a place where one >organization (the hostmaster) can dictate the conditions for using the >net to the rest of the Internauts. If you don't want to, can not, or are >not willing to help us in our appeal for creating publicly accepted >rules, then perhaps we'll have to search for another way. > >However, I think that you could still read at >http://www.bol.bg/protest/protest_e.htm >that a huge amount of serious players in Bulgaria are against this >discriminating policy. > >Losing hope, >regards, >veni > > ==== 2: the next one is very interesting, as .bg TLDA respondedn to Vint, but never have sent me a contract. -----Original Message----- From: vinton g. cerf To: veni markovski Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 2:22 PM Subject: Re: contract for paying the domain names Digsys responded and said they would be pleased to execute a contract with you. They claim that charging is well within reason and the law. ====== 3: -----Original Message----- From: veni markovski To: vinton g. cerf Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 2:17 PM Subject: Re: contract for paying the domain names >Oh, >let's put it briefly: >the local TLDA is an ISP. They started from back date to charge for domain >names ($ 50 start up fee, $ 50 / yearly fee). They introduced this price in >mid January, but said it's since January 1st. The protest of some of the >Internauts is listed in many web sites in the country. I'm attaching it to >this message. >As a lawyer, and as a normal citizen, I don't think what DigSys (the local >TLDA) did was correct. On the contrary: >- it's against the laws (FTC is already informed and taking actions against >them), >- it's not bringing consensus in the internet community in Bulgaria; >- it's not fair, if you want, for an ISP to take money for fulfilling their >"public service" > >We proposed the organization of an NGO to handle the TLDAdministration, >which will issue to an ISP the right to keep the name server(s). I wrote to >IANA directly after a message from them, that they would not respond to a >CC: message (why not?), but since January 15th there's no answer! No answer >from IANA, from RIPE, from Digsys, from ISOC... > >Why do I waste time? Well, since for one year I'm a practising judge, >prosecutor, investigator, (that's part of my law education), I have time. > >I'll make sure no one in Bulgaria will ever have this right to decide what >the Internauts should do. I am also involved in the development of the new >law on Information, and have opposed directly the intentions of the >government to control the information provided in the web space in Bulgaria. >If nothing works out, and we all let them (digsys, the government) censure >the content on the Internet, then perhaps I am in the wrong country or in >the wrong time. But my sense of honesty and fairness is suffering when I can >not do anything to help the internauts... > >Anyway, I know the last way would be to go in court, and I think I can do >that to protect a broken right. > >yours, >veni ====== This one is also pretty interesting. It seems Mr. Postel hasn't read http://www.bol.bg/protest/ 4: -----Original Message----- From: postel at ISI.EDU To: veni at isoc.bg Cc: daniel at dcave.digsys.bg ; postel at ISI.EDU ; iana at ISI.EDU ; isoc-eu at imag.fr ; Bruno.Oudet at imag.fr ; vcerf at MCI.NET ; ISOC-TRUSTEES at listserv.isoc.org Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 12:28 AM Subject: Bulgarian situation > >Veni Markovski: > >The IANA certainly agrees that the selection of a management authority >for a country code TLD should be based on the consensus of all >interested parties in the country. This is often hard to accomplish. > >However, complaints from one person do not demonstrate that a consensus >does not exist, or that the current management needs to be replaced. > >We have received your many messages complaining about the managemnent >of the .BG ccTLD. > >We have reviewed these matters several times with the current manager >of the .BG domain and found the responses to be quite reasonable. > >--jon. > -----Original Message----- From: Jim Fleming To: E D Danielyan ; veni at isoc.bg Cc: centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; rsctalk at ah.net Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 2:11 PM Subject: Re: BG TLD > >-----Original Message----- >From: E D Danielyan >To: veni at isoc.bg >Cc: centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net >Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 4:43 AM >Subject: Re: BG TLD > > >> >> >>Dear Veni: >> >>> I mean, we (ISOC-Bulgaria) tried everything, and it wouldn't work. The >>> current ccTLD system is rotten - at least in the .bg case. Ergo, we have >to >>> find an alternative. >> >>With all respect for you, Veni, you do not have to find an alternative - >>you have to defend your viewpoint. I'd advise you to forward all >correspondence >>between you and Dr. Postel to this list for public consideration; >afterwards, >>if you believe you're right, file wrongful conduct action against BG NIC in >>your country and make Internet community in Bulgaria aware of the >situation: >>if your rights, or rights of public are not honored, it is your and >public's >>responsibility to defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and >>Dr. Postel isn't a king. >> >>Yours >>Edgar >>AM NIC >> >> > >I agree and would further suggest that >this be handled in the G3 region as much >as possible with the help of the "neighbor net" >community for the .BG TLD. In a growing >Internet, Jon Postel or a small IANA staff >will not be able to sort out all of the local >issues. People in the "region" can help >with that. That is one of the merits of >socializing these discussions. > >Does anyone have the current "neighbor net" >for the .BG TLD which I assume is in G3 ? > > >Jim Fleming >Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com > > > -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 18:00:26 MET DST 1998 --------- From randy at psg.com Fri Aug 28 17:57:15 1998 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: > I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from > the two-letter country codes? because they are an irrelevant fantasy. randy -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 18:24:35 MET DST 1998 --------- From randy at psg.com Fri Aug 28 18:20:21 1998 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BG TLD References: <00f901bdd299$783c7820$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: you want outsiders to 'solve' your internal problem. most countries tend to object to that. postel's repeated policy, as stated in rfc 1591 is that you need to resolve your internal problems locally. coming from a country which has so often been accused of interfering in others' business, i find your expections rather unexpected. randy -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 18:42:37 MET DST 1998 --------- From jc.praud at ludexpress.com Fri Aug 28 18:47:38 1998 From: jc.praud at ludexpress.com (Jean-Christophe Praud) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:47:38 +0200 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: <35E6DF2A.D3515BF1@ludexpress.com> Randy Bush wrote: > > > I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from > > the two-letter country codes? > > because they are an irrelevant fantasy. > Mmm. Like democracy during absolute monarchy era :o) -- Jean-Christophe PRAUD - LUDEXPRESS http://www.ludexpress.com http://www.nicwine.net http://www.irsc.ah.net 3:213 WINE Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu n'gah Bill R'lyeh Wgah'nagl fhtagn -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 19:11:42 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Fri Aug 28 19:11:41 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:11:41 +0300 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <014301bdd2a6$f6bc94c0$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> It seems I've read the rfc1591 most recently: This means that the same rules are applied to all requests, all requests must be processed in a non-discriminatory fashion, and academic and commercial (and other) users are treated on an equal basis. No bias shall be shown regarding requests that may come from customers of some other business related to the manager -- e.g., no preferential service for customers of a particular data network provider. There can be no requirement that a particular mail system (or other application), protocol, or product be used. and more: Significantly interested parties in the domain should agree that the designated manager is the appropriate party. The IANA tries to have any contending parties reach agreement among themselves, and generally takes no action to change things unless all the contending parties agree; only in cases where the designated manager has substantially mis-behaved would the IANA step in. However, it is also appropriate for interested parties to have some voice in selecting the designated manager. There are two cases where the IANA and the central IR may establish a new top-level domain and delegate only a portion of it: (1) there are contending parties that cannot agree, or (2) the applying party may not be able to represent or serve the whole country. The later case sometimes arises when a party outside a country is trying to be helpful in getting networking started in a country -- this is sometimes called a "proxy" DNS service. === Would you like to comment on that?? It's so obvious, yet you're trying to tell me we are wrong?? === and here's ripe: As for "special case" registries as defined above, it is recommended that where such a registry charges for service, it should, in addition to complying with the recommendations listed above: relate charges to costs of operation and apply all revenues to such costs; regularly publish a budget of its anticipated operating costs and revenue; publish guidelines and apply these uniformly; ensure equality of access to registration services; aim to achieve consensus within the community it serves as to the disposal of any surplus revenues; regularly publish accounts of income and expenditure ; refrain from using their unique position as leverage in any other business venture. I don't really want to comment on that - read it, then visit http://www.bol.bg/protest/ It's not me alone; the .bg TLDA is using their (his, rather) position to gain business from competitors (example was given at the InnternetExpo '98 in Sofia by www.onlin.bg about a customer of theirs which domain name was not registered in time, because they didn't want the .bg TLDA to be their provider), etc., etc., etc., etc....) Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -------- Logged at Fri Aug 28 19:23:36 MET DST 1998 --------- From randy at psg.com Fri Aug 28 19:20:50 1998 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> <35E6DF2A.D3515BF1@ludexpress.com> Message-ID: >>> I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from >>> the two-letter country codes? >> because they are an irrelevant fantasy. > Mmm. Like democracy during absolute monarchy era :o) please read rfcs 1033-1035, 2181, etc and notice that it is a hierarchy. demagoguery about abstract political theory absent real technical and/or operational substance is irrelevant fantasy. randy -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 03:32:49 MET DST 1998 --------- From randy at psg.com Sat Aug 29 03:31:12 1998 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> <3.0.5.32.19980829111250.019806e0@mail.ah.local> Message-ID: > OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot > of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and mail. > I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet > is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR > IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium. can't speak for others, but for me it was probably a decade or two before you discovered the net. yes, i have been on the net for a wee bit. same goes for many of the other folk for whom you seem to hold such paranoia. the actual folk who cooperatively advance the network call the process "rough consensus and running code." being an engineer (well part time at least) i judge by results. those results are allowing you to tell us about your little fantasy. you're welcome. but don't expect grownups to take you seriously. > Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered > Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc i would append the analogous one for the real internet, but sending many tens of megabytes of data in email is generally not appreciated, especially as there are folk with expensive connectivity on this list. as fidonet was heavily used in africa, i was involved there for some years, gating it to/from (what became) the internet. the same silliness about who 'controlled' the namespace occurred there. the demagogues of democracy never got anywhere except creating a lot of loud noise and giving an exceedingly vocal very small minority with too much time on their hands something to do. and those folk turned out to be far less democratic than the worst of the 'old guard', having a great time stabbing each other in the back etc. history has this thing about repeating itself. randy -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 04:49:09 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Sat Aug 29 04:44:17 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 05:44:17 +0300 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <003b01bdd2f7$220d6460$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> >No Randy they didn't try to get outsiders to rectify the problem. They >went to IANA to have the problem solved in accordance with the protocol. and if IANA has answered us AFTER reviewing the whole case, there wouldn't have been a problem. After all we DIDN'T want to change the current TLDA! We just want them to follow rules which are created by another organization, and not an ISP, what's the case today. It is not possible to have an ISP as an independent TLDA, esp. when the .bg TLDA is breaking even IANA & RIPE own rules! rgrds, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:44:52 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 18:32:48 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:32:48 -0500 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <0bd701bdd2a1$8050f9c0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush To: veni markovski Cc: Jim Fleming ; E D Danielyan ; centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; rsctalk at ah.net ; bgr at isoc.bg Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:25 AM Subject: Re: BG TLD >you want outsiders to 'solve' your internal problem. most countries tend to >object to that. postel's repeated policy, as stated in rfc 1591 is that you >need to resolve your internal problems locally. coming from a country which >has so often been accused of interfering in others' business, i find your >expections rather unexpected. > I think we have all learned that TLDs are domains and not countries. People from one domain can help people from other domains. The Internet is international and crosses geographic boundaries. The boundaries between domains are more distinct. I see several people here from the .NET domain and some from .COM. Some day we will have more diversity in domains and opinions. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:45:31 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 19:25:48 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:25:48 -0500 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <0c1f01bdd2a8$e8695dc0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush To: Jean-Christophe Praud Cc: veni markovski ; Annie Renard ; Hank Nussbacher ; Fay Howard ; centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; 'Artur Grzymala' ; Adam Todd ; Jim Fleming ; renard at gaillac.inria.fr Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 12:23 PM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers >>>> I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from >>>> the two-letter country codes? >>> because they are an irrelevant fantasy. >> Mmm. Like democracy during absolute monarchy era :o) > >please read rfcs 1033-1035, 2181, etc and notice that it is a hierarchy. > >demagoguery about abstract political theory absent real technical and/or >operational substance is irrelevant fantasy. > That is why eventually people have to come to a complete understanding of who owns and operates the various Root Name Servers Clusters (RSCs) and who owns and operates the various TLD Name Servers, registries and registrars. At the heart of most of this are simple text files. In the end, someone has to be able to edit those files....those are part of the "operational substance". For many people they could start there and skip all of the rest of the fantasies. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:46:08 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Fri Aug 28 18:27:10 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:27:10 -0500 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <0bcf01bdd2a0$dd154180$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush To: veni markovski Cc: Annie Renard ; Hank Nussbacher ; Jean-Christophe Praud ; Fay Howard ; centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net ; 'Artur Grzymala' ; Adam Todd ; Jim Fleming ; renard at gaillac.inria.fr Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 11:00 AM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers >> I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from >> the two-letter country codes? > >because they are an irrelevant fantasy. > >randy > It would be interesting to dig up the numerous postings by people that claimed the IANA was in control of the legacy Root Name Servers. Some have now learned that this was apparently a fantasy. At some point we all have to separate fact from fantasy. We do not seem to be moving in that direction here. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:46:49 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Sat Aug 29 03:12:50 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:12:50 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980829111250.019806e0@mail.ah.local> >> I don't get it. Why is such a concern about ccTLD, which are different from >> the two-letter country codes? > >because they are an irrelevant fantasy. OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium. Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:03:31 GMT From: aurscreport at ah.net Subject: AURSC Statistics for: rs2 X-SERVER: rs2.au.rsc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ IP Address Host Name Answers Given ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ TOTAL 1193 10.21.205.2 rs1.aursc.ah.local 1 20.8.40.1 usatlfp1.atl.csi.csc.com 59 62.160.108.13 12 139.130.11.221 dellav.lnk.telstra.net 1 140.175.69.11 bozo.scott.af.mil 24 151.201.91.6 ns1.forcomm.net 1 193.205.224.4 sun.iss.it 11 193.218.234.69 5 194.224.39.18 fwgea.mundivia.es 3 195.22.0.136 brithon.esoterica.pt 383 198.114.148.10 2 202.36.148.65 ns1.manawatu.net.nz 13 202.36.148.70 ns2.manawatu.net.nz 33 202.50.69.138 firewall.rds.co.nz 5 203.21.205.1 ns2.ah.net 23 203.21.205.20 ns4.ah.net 2 203.24.133.1 nhj.nlc.net.au 14 203.24.133.130 coast.nlc.net.au 2 203.29.72.5 core-knx3-1.mel.ipax.com.au 1 203.29.72.14 jupiter.noc.ipax.com.au 2 203.32.165.100 14 204.139.85.4 2 205.168.214.1 1 205.205.14.65 mayday.gazmet.com 14 206.136.194.250 2 206.242.194.3 3 207.193.46.82 8 208.10.228.2 www.jc-rules.com 458 208.10.243.26 3 208.130.117.6 gw1.gol.net.gy 30 208.145.195.33 20 208.150.70.49 indybbs.net 6 208.161.204.221 two.cst-online.net 27 209.119.24.163 cl.shinn.net 6 210.96.172.66 2 --------------------------------------------------------- For further information about this document, contact mailto:dns at ah.net. This Application is under development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam Todd http://adamtodd.ah.net Business Development, Technology, Domain Registration and Network Advisory Phone +61 2 9729 0565 - Todd Corporation http://www.todd.inoz.com Fax +61 2 4659 6786 - AHNET http://www.ah.net - AURSC http://www.aursc.ah.net Telstra Reseller and Telstra Convey Member (Not an Employee of Telstra) Get the DOMAIN NAME HANDBOOK NOW http://www.domainhandbook.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:47:27 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Sat Aug 29 03:33:19 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:33:19 -0500 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <0e0b01bdd2ed$023a4fe0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush To: Adam Todd Cc: centr at ripe.net ; centr-info at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net Date: Friday, August 28, 1998 8:33 PM Subject: Re: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers >> OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot >> of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. > >cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and >mail. > I wonder when the day will come that people suggest that people use a native-mode IPv6 system to only communicate with other people using such systems. People could leave the entire IPv4 internet for the vultures to pick apart. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 10:48:04 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Sat Aug 29 03:17:32 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:17:32 +1000 Subject: BG TLD In-Reply-To: References: <00f901bdd299$783c7820$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980829111732.01534410@mail.ah.local> At 09:20 28/08/98 -0700, Randy Bush wrote: >you want outsiders to 'solve' your internal problem. most countries tend to >object to that. postel's repeated policy, as stated in rfc 1591 is that you >need to resolve your internal problems locally. coming from a country which >has so often been accused of interfering in others' business, i find your >expections rather unexpected. No Randy they didn't try to get outsiders to rectify the problem. They went to IANA to have the problem solved in accordance with the protocol. If the probelm can't be resolved "internally" then the Community has the right to petition IANA to have the delegated Authority changed. It's been done before, it's written and it will happen again - maybe. I thikn you need to view the information properly, not jump to conclusions. -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 19:38:51 MET DST 1998 --------- From hank at ibm.net.il Sat Aug 29 19:38:28 1998 From: hank at ibm.net.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:38:28 +0300 (IDT) Subject: BG TLD In-Reply-To: <01bdd278$be905380$890fa8c0@nt.bol.bg> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Veni Markovski wrote: If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. Patience. If you are correct in your statements - then I am sure a panel of people will get to the truth. But alternate TLDs belong in their own sphere. There are the current gTLDs and there are the ccTLDs. Create an aTLD organization for alternate TLDs which can include alterNIC and network luminaries like Jim Fleming, Bob Allisat, etc. -Hank > Well, > I not only sent hundreds of e-mail, putting together all the emails, > conversation and seminars held in Bulgaria about it, > I've also asked and have received a positive answer to put this "Open > letter" in the web - you can see it at many locations, including > http://www.bol.bg/protest/ and http://www.isoc.bg, and http://www.kit.bg > and many other. > But I'll write you more later on today, when I can take a better look at > your mails. It's been a busy week, and for the past 2 days I am having a flu > and about 38 degrees C. > > have a good weekend, > yours as usual sincerely, > veni > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Karrenberg > To: E D Danielyan > Cc: veni at isoc.bg ; centr at ripe.net ; > tld-wg at ripe.net > Date: 28 aWGUST 1998 G. 12:49 > Subject: Re: BG TLD > > > > > >Edgar, > > > >*very* well said. This has ben pointed out to Veni numerous times in > >private correspondence. > > > >Daniel > > > > > E D Danielyan writes: > > > > > > ... file wrongful > > > conduct action against BG NIC in your country and make Internet > > > community in Bulgaria aware of the situation: if your rights, or rights > > > of public are not honored, it is your and public's responsibility to > > > defend and enforce them. Internet isn't a monarchy and Dr. Postel > > > isn't a king. > > > Hank Nussbacher -------- Logged at Sat Aug 29 20:41:39 MET DST 1998 --------- From artur at zoo.pl Sat Aug 29 21:19:14 1998 From: artur at zoo.pl (Artur Grzymala) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:19:14 +0000 (WAT) Subject: PL TLD (re: BG TLD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not > responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be > able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. > Patience. Sorry, but I'm very impatient. I've registered a domain two months ago. It was a domain in regional subdomain of PL ccTLD. Two weeks after reg. the .pl adm (NASK) send me such a letter: "If we will give regional domains to regions, we will do it with all registered subdomains." It's obvious, what's the difference, where the delegation of my domain will be hold. Last week they've done it, but the first move of new adm. was deleting my delegations. Two days ago I was talking with president of NASK and... P. of NASK - "It's your problem, it isn't our domain" Me - "You have took money for this" P. of NASK - "It is not our problem." How long I've got to wait for decision of court or IANA-ng (if...); a year? Regards, Artur ps. New administrator isn't answering my emails. -------- Logged at Sun Aug 30 07:48:40 MET DST 1998 --------- From veni at isoc.bg Sun Aug 30 07:48:48 1998 From: veni at isoc.bg (veni markovski) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:48:48 +0300 Subject: BG TLD Message-ID: <008e01bdd3da$3841a780$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> Hank, there's only one little problem - until the people at IANA (or this committee) realise I am arguing on behalf of many people, ISPs, organizatoins; and this has nothing to do with competition... until then, they'll listen to the current .bg TLDA. And you know what? They just don't realise the situation in Bulgaria; this is what you call a "cross cultural difference". regards, Veni Markovski, Chairmain, the Internet Society - Bulgaria, http://www.isoc.bg, http://www.bulgaria.com/isoc/, http://www.bol.bg/isoc/ phone: (+359-2) 9809666, phone/fax (+359-2) 9806431 mailing address: p.o.box 71, Sofia 1164, Bulgaria >If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not >responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be >able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. >Patience. If you are correct in your statements - then I am sure a panel >of people will get to the truth. But alternate TLDs belong in their own >sphere. There are the current gTLDs and there are the ccTLDs. Create an >aTLD organization for alternate TLDs which can include alterNIC and >network luminaries like Jim Fleming, Bob Allisat, etc. -------- Logged at Sun Aug 30 15:27:55 MET DST 1998 --------- From estaicut at linkguide.ici.ro Mon Aug 31 01:22:16 1998 From: estaicut at linkguide.ici.ro (Eugenie Staicut) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers Message-ID: <199808302322.QAA03741@linkguide.ici.ro> > > ************************** > REGISTRATION FOR CENTR WORKSHOP > > I wish to attend the CENTR workshop for Managers of TLD Rgistries > > Name: Eugenie Staicut > > Organization and country: Research Institute for Informatics, Romania > > Position held: Data Communication Center Manager > > Any other Comments: Technical Manager for .ro TLD > Eugenie Staicut -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:51:53 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Sat Aug 29 14:54:59 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:54:59 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> <3.0.5.32.19980829111250.019806e0@mail.ah.local> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980829225459.01978300@mail.ah.local> >> OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot >> of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. > >cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and >mail. Which address? One I'm not so well known at? I'll tell you what, how about you use your mothers phone number as your contact number - it's still a valid number isn't it? I use a domain name I have recognision for and that which best represents what I'm doing. As I don't have an MTA that can change my address according to the list/person I'm posting to, I use a common address and worry about filtering when my MTA receives the email. I may choose in the future to use a Domain Name under another TLD, but right now I don't really have one that is suitable to my most common use. >> I just wonder at what stage some peopel are going to realise the Internet >> is a global medium with a lot of free range scope and not a DO IT MY WAY OR >> IT WON"T WORK BECAUSE I SAY SO medium. > >can't speak for others, but for me it was probably a decade or two before >you discovered the net. yes, i have been on the net for a wee bit. same >goes for many of the other folk for whom you seem to hold such paranoia. Can't speak for others and you can't speak for me. Randy, I can't clai, to have been around as long as you, I have been told a little of your history and your been there stories. But I can say I've been around Techology and R&D at Chip level since 1979. That at least accounts for something. My first IP network was set up in 1981 and I was one of the first six people to being internet traffic into Australia - in fact I did it by Satallite at the time. So I've been around. And I've seen probably as much as you have where Internet as a commercial product in it's own right, has come from. >the actual folk who cooperatively advance the network call the process >"rough consensus and running code." being an engineer (well part time at Sure, rough consenesus is certainly what AURSC and IRSC are about. All the members and people using RSCs are in 100% guaranteed consensus. It's a little better than what we have elsewhere huh? >least) i judge by results. Yes so do I. If people use a resource, and they continue to uuse a resource, and they tell others about a resource, then somehting must be good. >those results are allowing you to tell us about your little fantasy. It's not a Fantasy. See you're using a word from the English lanugage very incorrectly. A fantasy is a ficticious story that has not resembelance to life itself. AURSC and IRSC are in no way fantasies because they exist, work and are growing. >you're welcome. but don't expect grownups to take you seriously. Randy, trying to be quite pretencious doesn't work with me. I'd say your no more grown up than any other person. But in sight of this, there is one problem. PEOPLE who would no doubt qualify as "grown ups" in your book are in fact taking thinsg very seriously or there would be no question. >> Current Servers who have requested data from AURSC that we answered >> Up to Fri Aug 28 23:59:02 1998 on rs2.au.rsc > >i would append the analogous one for the real internet, but sending many >tens of megabytes of data in email is generally not appreciated, especially >as there are folk with expensive connectivity on this list. Sure, and can you also send me the stats for the number of people running Microsoft Internet Information Server please. Your point is what? Randy whilst your collecting stats for me can you also tell me how many Holden Commodroes were sold in Australia at the time the Model T Ford was on sale. I suppose this will be difficult, but i'ts a statement of evolution and evoloution will continue. BTW, do you have a pet Taranasourus Rex? >as fidonet was heavily used in africa, i was involved there for some years, And yes, I was very heavily involed in Fidone tin Australia from around 1988, way after I was already carrying Internet traffic for users in Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra. >gating it to/from (what became) the internet. Yes, did the same. Nothing new there. I wrote the code myself on a 286 platform using DOS and Arcnet originally, I even wrote the TCP/IP and UDP layers for DOS and Arcnet themselves as there was nothing available that didn't cost thousands of dollars. >the same silliness about who >'controlled' the namespace occurred there. Yes it did and most people in the commercial world who wanted results ignored it and continued to develope and create. >the demagogues of democracy >never got anywhere except creating a lot of loud noise and giving an >exceedingly vocal very small minority with too much time on their hands >something to do. Sounds like ... I won't say. >and those folk turned out to be far less democratic than >the worst of the 'old guard', having a great time stabbing each other in the >back etc. history has this thing about repeating itself. No not quite. Not repeating yet. This time round commercial value is at stake and there are people who real cash and concerns involved. It certainly wasn't costing us anything ten years ago in reality other than the cost of the links which were used by our commercial company during the AU and USA day periods, the rest of the time we flooded it with Fidonet and Internet Transactions. This time round, people want a trusting resource or a resource they can be sure wn't change the course of their business plans. That's only fair as the Internet is still based on COOPERATION and to get cooperation from competitors requires a real talent and we're seeing exactly that - it doesn't work at the IANA/NSI/etc level. AURSC/IRSC and the other RSC's are cooperative groups of people with interests at the next level, so no one interest party can control the environment - you are welcome to try. You can delay it and try and sabotage it, but that ultimately won't do you any good. People who make up the RSC's and the TLD holders (all TLD's) are always welcome because the whole thing is about THEIR interests and how to make it all work for everyone. No Cooperation - No Global Internet. We might as well all pull our WAN polugs tonight ... -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:52:31 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Sat Aug 29 15:20:41 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:20:41 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: <0e0b01bdd2ed$023a4fe0$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980829232041.0090a5d0@mail.ah.local> >>> OK, Randy, I have some bad news for an irrelevant fantasy there are a lot >>> of people dreaming ... and it grows - every day. >> >>cool. then use your other email address on all internet subscriptions and >>mail. > >I wonder when the day will come that people >suggest that people use a native-mode IPv6 >system to only communicate with other people >using such systems. People could leave the >entire IPv4 internet for the vultures to pick apart. Ohh shocking thought. IPv6 and IPv4, what is someone gets the configuration wrong at the gateways - it all stops huh? I guess IPv6 will have to remain a fant... -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:53:15 MET DST 1998 --------- From at at ah.net Sat Aug 29 14:57:09 1998 From: at at ah.net (Adam Todd) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:57:09 +1000 Subject: CENTR workshop for ccTLD Managers In-Reply-To: References: <013601bdd265$2a7ff280$880fa8c0@veni.bol.bg> <35E6DF2A.D3515BF1@ludexpress.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980829225709.0197a980@mail.ah.local> >please read rfcs 1033-1035, 2181, etc and notice that it is a hierarchy. > >demagoguery about abstract political theory absent real technical and/or >operational substance is irrelevant fantasy. Randy you fail to realise that the Technical is deployed - it's the political *us* engineering types are weak on, mind you there are political people who are now becoming involved with the IRSC and that's a good thing because they can sit down and document and write the drafts that *US* technical people can vote on. Fairly simple. No Fantasy - it's real. It's happening. As much as you can hope on a plane and fly to Singapore within 24 hours. People once said the ability to fly - yet alone fly around the world in a day was mere fantasy. I hope you didn't get your feet wet walking across the Pacific. -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:54:25 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Sat Aug 29 22:19:24 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:19:24 -0500 Subject: PL TLD (re: BG TLD) Message-ID: <108201bdd38a$56011120$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> Artur, Can you explain what *specific* changes you would want to see to the root zone if any ? By specific I mean name servers, technical and administrative contact changes, etc. Keep in mind that most people can not keep up on all of the TLDs in the world. It helps to provide context and specific requests. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -----Original Message----- From: Artur Grzymala To: Hank Nussbacher Cc: Veni Markovski ; E D Danielyan ; Daniel Karrenberg ; centr at ripe.net ; tld-wg at ripe.net Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 1:42 PM Subject: PL TLD (re: BG TLD) > > >On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > >> If you feel the .bg ccTLD is not properly managed and that Jon is not >> responsive enough, soon will be an IANA-ng organization and you will be >> able to submit your request to a committee and it will be decided. >> Patience. > >Sorry, but I'm very impatient. I've registered a domain two months ago. >It was a domain in regional subdomain of PL ccTLD. Two weeks after reg. >the .pl adm (NASK) send me such a letter: > >"If we will give regional domains to regions, we will do it with all >registered subdomains." > >It's obvious, what's the difference, where the delegation of my domain >will be hold. Last week they've done it, but the first move of new adm. >was deleting my delegations. Two days ago I was talking with president of >NASK and... > >P. of NASK - "It's your problem, it isn't our domain" >Me - "You have took money for this" >P. of NASK - "It is not our problem." > >How long I've got to wait for decision of court or IANA-ng (if...); >a year? > >Regards, >Artur > >ps. New administrator isn't answering my emails. > > -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 10:54:56 MET DST 1998 --------- From JimFleming at unety.net Sun Aug 30 16:45:31 1998 From: JimFleming at unety.net (Jim Fleming) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:45:31 -0500 Subject: [ifwp] Re: announcement from the Berkman Center Message-ID: <11e601bdd426$28f91460$059f20cf@webster.unir.net> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Gomes To: IFWP Discussion List Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 6:29 AM Subject: [ifwp] Re: announcement from the Berkman Center >What CRITICAL functions is the IANA currently performing? What would happen to >those functions if IANA did not perform them? > >There have been a lot of generalizations about IANA's critical role but I don't >think I have seen anyone SPECIFICALLY define that role. It seems to me that the >only reasonable way to clearly decide how critical that role really is is to look at >the functions one by one in an honest, unemotional way. In each case we should >answer these questions: who is actually performing the function? what impact would >there be if IANA was not involved? what would happen if IANA did not have any >funding come October 1st? would the stability of the Internet be affected in any >way? if so, how? > >This is not in anyway intended to denigrate any of the accomplishments that Jon may >have accomplished in the past, but rather to help us look honestly at the present. >If we are unwilling to do this, then it is absurd to create a new organization to >replace the existing functionality of the current IANA. > >Chuck Gomes > I AGREE 100.00% Not only should we document what critical functions the IANA provides, but also what critical functions that they DO NOT PROVIDE !!!! For the past few years, people with very little knowledge have been allowed to claim that the IANA performs some function, when in fact the IANA does not. Unfortunately, the small staff at the IANA and it's Director Jon Postel has not seen the need to dispute people's claims. On one hand people should be able to understand that it is not Jon's duty to run around the net reading every word spoken about the IANA and setting the record straight when the words are not true. On the other hand, when groups like the ISOC, IAHC, CORE, POC, PAB, EXCOM, etc. make claims such as, "The IANA will be adding TLDs to the legacy Root Name Servers", those claims should be disputed. Jon Postel was not forthcoming in making it clear what he could do and could not do. At the present time, we know a couple of things that the IANA is not able to do. 1. The IANA can not add new TLDs to the legacy Root Name Servers. 2. The IANA can not add entries to the IN-ADDR.ARPA zone except via ARIN where Jon Postel is a Board member. If people follow Chuck's advice, we should separate Jon Postel from the IANA. Just because Jon Postel may be able to do something does not mean the IANA can do the same thing. If and when Jon Postel helps the ITAG and/or a board create the so-called IANA Inc. in California the same approach should hold. People need to clearly look at that NEW corporation as a legal agent, distinct from the Jon Postel human agent, and make sure they clearly understand what each agent can and CAN NOT do. Jim Fleming Unir Corporation - http://www.unir.com -------- Logged at Mon Aug 31 22:27:22 MET DST 1998 --------- From artur at zoo.pl Mon Aug 31 23:05:39 1998 From: artur at zoo.pl (Artur Grzymala) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:05:39 +0000 (WAT) Subject: Problems with PL ccTLD's administrator In-Reply-To: <199808302322.QAA03741@linkguide.ici.ro> Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking for help. PL administrator stole my domain. Where can I write about it? Which internet organization can help me? Regards, Artur Grzymala -------- Logged at Tue Sep 1 01:52:59 MET DST 1998 ---------