From nick at ripe.net Mon Oct 2 11:26:58 2017 From: nick at ripe.net (Nick Hyrka) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 11:26:58 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] ASO AC Calls For Nominations to Seat 9 on the ICANN Board of Directors Message-ID: This message is sent on behalf of the Number Resource Organization. In line with the ICANN Address Supporting Organization (ASO) Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) and the ICANN Bylaws, the Address Supporting Organization Address Council (ASO AC) is calling for nominations to Seat 9 of the ICANN Board of Directors. The selected candidate will serve for a three-year term, which will begin at the conclusion of the ICANN Annual General Assembly during the ICANN 63 meeting. ICANN 63 is currently scheduled for October 20-26, 2018, in Barcelona, Spain. Eligibility Requirements All nominated candidates must meet the selection criteria and conflict of interest requirements as outlined in Article 7 of the ICANN Bylaws. The selected candidate will undergo an independent due diligence review by an ICANN contractor, and announcement of the candidate will follow once this review has been successfully completed. Nomination Process Community members are invited to submit nominations by email to nominations [at] aso [dot] icann [dot] org by Sunday, 17 December 2017 at 23:59 UTC. Nominations must include the following information: - The full name of the person being nominated - Contact email address for the person being nominated - Contact telephone number (if available) of the person being nominated - The full name of the person making the nomination - Contact email address for the person making the nomination - Contact telephone number of the person making the nomination Regional Restrictions The ICANN Bylaws state that the directors selected by a Supporting Organization (SO) for its assigned Board seat(s) cannot reside in the same geographic region (see Section 7.2:c). The current ASO AC selection for Seat 10, Akinori Maemura, resides in the APNIC region. Therefore, no nominations for Seat 9 will be accepted from candidates residing in the APNIC region. Important Dates Nomination Phase: 2 October 2017 ? 17 December 2017 Comment Phase: 18 December 2017 ? 18 March 2018 Interview Phase: 17 January 2018 ? 18 March 2018 Selection Phase: 19 March 2018 ? 18 April 2018 Due Diligence Review: 19 April 2018 ? 17 May 2018 Announcement: Around 19 May 2018 Further Information - For further information and updated announcements on the election process, see the dedicated 2017 ICANN Board Election page on the ASO website. - Detailed procedures for election of individuals to the ICANN Board of Directors by the ASO AC can be found in Section 9 of the ASO AC Operating Procedures. If you have any questions about the elections or the election process, please contact secretariat [at] nro [dot] net. From ripencc-management at ripe.net Mon Oct 2 18:02:02 2017 From: ripencc-management at ripe.net (Axel Pawlik) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 18:02:02 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE NCC Community Projects Fund Selection Committee Chosen Message-ID: <0e709ba5-e3fc-5a6a-a7d4-dc4ff2db591b@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, We are pleased to announce the names of the first RIPE NCC Community Projects Fund Selection Committee. Chosen from a list of submitted nominations by the RIPE NCC Executive Board, the community members are: Nuno Garcia Mieke van Heesewijk Andreas Larson They will join Salam Yamout from the RIPE NCC Executive Board to complete the selection committee. The Executive Board sincerely thanks all those who put themselves forward to be on the committee and warmly welcome the new committee members. The committee is responsible for reviewing applications for projects supporting Internet resilience and operations from late November until late December 2017. These members have committed to serving a minimum term of one year (and a maximum of three) to ensure continuity. The call for funding applications opens on Sunday, 22 October and the Fund will be formally introduced in the RIPE NCC Services Working Group session at RIPE 75 in Dubai. More information on the Fund can be found at: Regards, Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC From shane at time-travellers.org Tue Oct 17 15:11:00 2017 From: shane at time-travellers.org (Shane Kerr) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:11:00 +0000 Subject: [ripe-list] Announcing Diversity Task Force draft charter, plus activities at RIPE 75 Message-ID: Dear RIPE Colleagues, On behalf of the Diversity Task Force (TF), we would like to ask for feedback on the draft charter: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/tf/ripe-diversity-task-force As mentioned on the proposed charter page, we have a mailing list and encourage anyone interested to join: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity We also have some activities planned at the RIPE 75 meeting in Dubai next week: * We will give a short report on our work since RIPE 74, in a lightning talk slot during the plenary session. * For longer discussions and as another venue for giving input, we will be holding a Diversity BoF on Sunday, 22 October from 18:00 to 19:00. https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/bof/ * And for those who want to become more active, we have Task Force meeting on Monday, 23 October from 18:00 to 19:00. On behalf of the Diversity Task Force, -- Shane Kerr From nigel at titley.com Tue Oct 17 16:35:37 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:35:37 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] Announcing Diversity Task Force draft charter, plus activities at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22674ae8-d1ac-d9af-c08e-d3684aba3293@titley.com> Shane I think the draft charter pretty well covers everything. I'd like to express my thanks to the TF for their work so far. On a side note, although the gender balance in the TF as a whole is good, it is interesting to note considerable imbalance in the two sub-communities. Does the TF have any idea why this might be? All the best Nigel On 17/10/17 14:11, Shane Kerr wrote: > Dear RIPE Colleagues, > > On behalf of the Diversity Task Force (TF), we would like to ask for > feedback on the draft charter: > > https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/tf/ripe-diversity-task-force > > As mentioned on the proposed charter page, we have a mailing list and > encourage anyone interested to join: > > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity > > We also have some activities planned at the RIPE 75 meeting in Dubai > next week: > > * We will give a short report on our work since RIPE 74, in a > lightning talk slot during the plenary session. > > * For longer discussions and as another venue for giving input, we will > be holding a Diversity BoF on Sunday, 22 October from 18:00 to 19:00. > > https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/bof/ > > * And for those who want to become more active, we have Task Force > meeting on Monday, 23 October from 18:00 to 19:00. > > On behalf of the Diversity Task Force, > > -- > Shane Kerr > From legitdocu95 at gmail.com Wed Oct 18 03:02:52 2017 From: legitdocu95 at gmail.com (legit docu) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 03:02:52 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] Buy Genuine/fake passports, drivers lisence, ids (puredocumentation@gmail.com) Message-ID: WE ARE BEST PRODUCERS OF Ristered and unregistered passport of all countries (puredocumentation at gmail.com).visas,biometric passport,degrees,drivers license,I.D cards.Training certificates M GCSE, A-levels, High School Diploma Certificates ,GMAT, MCAT, and LSAT Examination Certificates , Novelty Birth, Marriage, and Death Certificates , Novelty Passports and New Identity Packages ,Replicated, False Degrees/Diplomas from most post-secondary institutions from around the world (we have over 3000 templates on file) all designed to look 100% identical to the original.Custom Printing (if we do not already have the template on file ? simply email us a copy and we can make any alterations/modifications as per your directions).second, citizenship,identity, identification, documents, diplomatic,nationality, how to, where to, get, obtain, buy, purchase, make,build, a, passport, i.d,British, Honduras, UK, USA, us, u.s.,Canada, Canadian,foreign, visa, Swiss, card,ids, document, getting,visas, cards, foreign .(puredocumentation at gmail.com) -WE DO OFFER A LEGITIMATE SERVICE:- Contact E-mail....................puredocumentation at gmail.com viber contact...................+1(240)389-5438 skype id..............................live:gostavkozlov Contact E-mail...................... gostavkozlov at outlook.com we offer a service to help you through to meet your goals, we can help you with. Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum From william.sylvester at addrex.net Thu Oct 19 00:53:02 2017 From: william.sylvester at addrex.net (William Sylvester) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 22:53:02 +0000 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Over the past year, our task force has been reviewing the structures, documentation, and processes of RIPE to identify our accountability as an organization. At the last RIPE meeting, we finalized our mission and scope which we continue to work against. We will be giving an update on our work at RIPE 75, on Monday 23 October at 16:00 local time (UTC+4). We invite you to attend and encourage you to comment from the floor or via remote participation. We have allocated plenty of time for comments and we'd like to hear your thoughts. In case you are not familiar with the task force and our work, here are a few key details. The task force was established at RIPE 73 in Madrid. Our focus is to identify the areas of accountability and to report back to the community with a review of RIPE's accountability. It is our goal to provide a final report which will include suggestions where the task force sees opportunity for improvement. The greater RIPE community will then decide how to respond or what actions to take. The task force will not be making corrective changes, that will be the responsibility of the community. We are mindful of the impact our recommendations might have on the community. Our intent is not to create bureaucracy, but instead to simplify and empower the values that have established RIPE and sustained the community for so many years. With that in mind, we have a few questions that have come up in our recent discussions that we would like to pose to the community. You can reply on this mailing list, or give us your feedback during our presentation at RIPE 75. 1. Do you think the "public benefit" or "the greater good" is a core aspirational factor in decisions made by the RIPE community? Alternatively, are RIPE community members merely working/cooperating for their own benefit? (If the community is only working for its own benefit, why have a last /8 policy that benefits newcomers, for example). 2. There is no explicit obligation anywhere that the RIPE NCC will adhere to policies developed by the RIPE community. Strictly speaking, the RIPE NCC is accountable to its membership only. Does the community feel that the RIPE NCC should make a declaration or perhaps sign an MoU stating that it will follow RIPE community policies? 3. There is no definition of consensus as it is used within the RIPE community. Is this something that is worth documenting? We will share some more details on this mailing list after our presentation at RIPE 75. We look forward to seeing everyone in Dubai next week and to receive community feedback on our progress. On behalf of the Accountability Task Force, William Sylvester, Chair -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at rfc1035.com Thu Oct 19 10:24:32 2017 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:24:32 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> > On 18 Oct 2017, at 23:53, William Sylvester wrote: > > 1. Do you think the "public benefit" or "the greater good" is a core aspirational factor in decisions made by the RIPE community? Alternatively, are RIPE community members merely working/cooperating for their own benefit? (If the community is only working for its own benefit, why have a last /8 policy that benefits newcomers, for example). Depends. Sometimes "public benefit" can have unintended consequences. It's clear -- or should be clear -- the public benefit aspirations apply to stewardship of numbering resources. [But that is less of a concern now that address policy is essentially a no-op these days.] The aspiration would also apply to some outreach activities requested by the community: for instance engagement with law enforcement, regulators and governments. Obviously it also applies to running K and maintaining the database too. I'm not so sure the "greater good" argument holds up so well for other NCC activities since IMO they should probably be spun out from the NCC. > 2. There is no explicit obligation anywhere that the RIPE NCC will adhere to policies developed by the RIPE community. Strictly speaking, the RIPE NCC is accountable to its membership only. Does the community feel that the RIPE NCC should make a declaration or perhaps sign an MoU stating that it will follow RIPE community policies? This is a very, very silly idea. Sorry. 1) Who would/could sign that MoU with the NCC? The RIPE community has no legal identity (by design) so it cannot enter into a contract or any other quasi-legal agreement. 2) If a declaration like this was somehow legally enforcable, that will not help if RIPE develops policies which are opposed by the NCC membership or not in the membership's best interest. If we ever get into a scenario like that, a declaration or MoU is not going to make it easier to resolve the conflict. I think it'll make reconciliation harder. There would be endless meta-arguments about what the MoU means or intended rather than fixing the underlying problem. Add lawyers to taste. 3) Suppose RIPE develops a policy that instructs Axel to hand out ?100 banknotes at Centraal Station until the NCC's reserves are gone. Should he do that just because this hypothetical declaration/MoU obliges him to do it? There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. > 3. There is no definition of consensus as it is used within the RIPE community. Is this something that is worth documenting? No. The dictionary definition should be enough. Failing that, there's RFC7282. From nigel at titley.com Thu Oct 19 10:36:38 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:36:38 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> Message-ID: <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> On 19/10/17 09:24, Jim Reid wrote: > >> On 18 Oct 2017, at 23:53, William Sylvester wrote: > >> 2. There is no explicit obligation anywhere that the RIPE NCC will adhere to policies developed by the RIPE community. Strictly speaking, the RIPE NCC is accountable to its membership only. Does the community feel that the RIPE NCC should make a declaration or perhaps sign an MoU stating that it will follow RIPE community policies? > > This is a very, very silly idea. Sorry. > > 1) Who would/could sign that MoU with the NCC? The RIPE community has no legal identity (by design) so it cannot enter into a contract or any other quasi-legal agreement. > > 2) If a declaration like this was somehow legally enforcable, that will not help if RIPE develops policies which are opposed by the NCC membership or not in the membership's best interest. If we ever get into a scenario like that, a declaration or MoU is not going to make it easier to resolve the conflict. I think it'll make reconciliation harder. There would be endless meta-arguments about what the MoU means or intended rather than fixing the underlying problem. Add lawyers to taste. > > 3) Suppose RIPE develops a policy that instructs Axel to hand out ?100 banknotes at Centraal Station until the NCC's reserves are gone. Should he do that just because this hypothetical declaration/MoU obliges him to do it? > > There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. Jim beat me to it (they obviously get up earlier North of The Border). The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. Nigel Chairman RIPE NCC Board From ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de Thu Oct 19 11:27:22 2017 From: ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de (Carsten Schiefner) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:27:22 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> Message-ID: <53119cdd-f556-7cee-1a4f-70bf2ca25b04@schiefner.de> Hi Nigel, On 19.10.2017 10:36, Nigel Titley wrote: > The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments > on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during > policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC > to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary > duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such > as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign > and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. maybe that would be something then that could be put into the board's rules of internal procedure: that the board sees to have all RIPE policies be implemented by the NCC to the greatest extend possible, but limited to the board's fiduciary duties? Best, -C. From isavnin at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 11:56:47 2017 From: isavnin at gmail.com (Alexander Isavnin) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:56:47 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> Message-ID: Dear Nigel! May i clarify some things? Did i get right, that "RIPE NCC is secretariat for community" is a fairy tale, told to RIPE Meetings newcomers? And relations of RIPE NCC to RIPE Community are just 4 letters E I P R in the name? And Number Resources allocation in this region happens not on behalf of Community, but because of some kind of MoUs signed by Dutch association with American corporation owned by other American corporation? And all those are official statements of the RIPE NCC Executive Board? Kind regards, Alexander Isavnin > > There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. > > Jim beat me to it (they obviously get up earlier North of The Border). > > The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments > on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during > policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC > to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary > duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such > as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign > and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. > > Nigel > Chairman RIPE NCC Board > > Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum From dfk at ripe.net Thu Oct 19 12:17:34 2017 From: dfk at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:17:34 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] Announcing Diversity Task Force draft charter, plus activities at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shane, others, thank you for producing this charter. I am very happy to see the essential elements of a task force here: a work plan and a fixed date for reviewing the continued usefulness of the task force i. This chaerter is a sound basis for constructive work to improve RIPE. Could you please consider removing the words "and marginalised" from the charter. The word marginalised implies that the RIPE community actively and intentionally marginalises anyone. This is not the case and therefore these words are not appropriate. Omitting them does not change the substance of the charter in any way either. Thank you Daniel speaking as co-founder of RIPE, steady contributor and former vice-chairman From nigel at titley.com Thu Oct 19 12:17:43 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:17:43 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19/10/2017 10:56, Alexander Isavnin wrote: > Dear Nigel! > > May i clarify some things? > > Did i get right, that "RIPE NCC is secretariat for community" is a fairy tale, told to RIPE Meetings newcomers? No, RIPE NCC is a membership association which carries out Network coordination activities on behalf of its membership and generally governed by policies formulated by the RIPE community. > > And relations of RIPE NCC to RIPE Community are just 4 letters E I P R in the name? In practice no, as, except in extremely strange circumstances, the RIPE NCC conducts activities according to policies formulated by the? RIPE community. > > And Number Resources allocation in this region happens not on behalf of Community, but because of some kind of MoUs signed by Dutch association with American corporation owned by other American corporation? Completely incorrect. > > And all those are official statements of the RIPE NCC Executive Board? No they are statements made by me, wearing my Chairman hat. I'm happy to take off the hat and make the statements as Nigel Titley, Internet person at large, if it makes you happier. What Jim and I were both trying to say, and obviously something got lost in translation, is that ever since the PDP's inception the NCC has carried out the policies as formulated by the RIPE Community, without exception, even when this has cost the RIPE NCC? membership considerable amounts of money. However, because we are bound by fiduciary duty (ie we mustn't do anything that's illegal under Dutch law) we *cannot* agree to do absolutely *anything* that might come out of the policy process. To take a ludicrous example, suppose the community asked us to sign an MOU with a Colombian drug cartel, something which under the PDP they could actually ask us to do, we would decline courteously. Nigel > > Kind regards, > Alexander Isavnin > >>> There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. >> Jim beat me to it (they obviously get up earlier North of The Border). >> >> The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments >> on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during >> policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC >> to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary >> duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such >> as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign >> and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. >> >> Nigel >> Chairman RIPE NCC Board >> >> > > Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum > From nick at inex.ie Thu Oct 19 12:19:55 2017 From: nick at inex.ie (Nick Hilliard) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:19:55 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59E87C4B.5060906@inex.ie> Alexander Isavnin wrote: > Dear Nigel! > > May i clarify some things? > > Did i get right, that "RIPE NCC is secretariat for community" is a > fairy tale, told to RIPE Meetings newcomers? Legally, the RIPE NCC is answerable only to its members. This is a requirement under Dutch law, and there is nothing surprising or unexpected about it. The RIPE NCC membership is mostly made up of the people who are active in the RIPE Community, and for the most part, there is very little divergence between RIPE community policy and RIPE NCC actions. There are one or two instances I can think of, e.g. charging for ASNs (explicitly overridden by NCC member vote, but let's face it, this isn't an issue that's worth throwing the toys out of the pram over) and rolling out RPKI for PI assignments (RIPE NCC agreed that this was a mistake to proceed without policy and then waited for the RIPE Community policy to request this before proceeding). In practice, there is a 25 year history of implementing RIPE Community policies in good faith. If this changes in the future, I have no doubt that the RIPE NCC membership will want to know why, and if good reasons aren't provided, then the RIPE NCC board will be held to account. > And relations of RIPE NCC to RIPE Community are just 4 letters E I P R in the name? > > And Number Resources allocation in this region happens not on behalf > of Community, but because of some kind of MoUs signed by Dutch > association with American corporation owned by other American > corporation? > > And all those are official statements of the RIPE NCC Executive Board? Nigel signed that email in his position as Chairman of the board, which looks pretty official. I don't know what EIPR stands for in this context. Could you explain? If you have some alternative suggestions about how to manage global IP number resource allocations other than through a relationship with IANA, then please speak up and we can have a discussion about your suggestions. Nick > Kind regards, > Alexander Isavnin > >>> There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. >> Jim beat me to it (they obviously get up earlier North of The Border). >> >> The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments >> on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during >> policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC >> to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary >> duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such >> as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign >> and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. >> >> Nigel >> Chairman RIPE NCC Board >> >> > > > Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum > > From nigel at titley.com Thu Oct 19 12:21:04 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:21:04 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <53119cdd-f556-7cee-1a4f-70bf2ca25b04@schiefner.de> References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> <53119cdd-f556-7cee-1a4f-70bf2ca25b04@schiefner.de> Message-ID: On 19/10/2017 10:27, Carsten Schiefner wrote: > Hi Nigel, > > On 19.10.2017 10:36, Nigel Titley wrote: >> The NCC Board does of course take account of policies, and also comments >> on them as part of the evaluation process that the NCC does during >> policy development. In all cases up until now we have instructed the NCC >> to follow policy. However, as board members we have certain fiduciary >> duties which cannot be overridden by policy. Faced with a situation such >> as Jim describes we have two choices: not implement the policy or resign >> and hope that someone else agrees to carry the can. > maybe that would be something then that could be put into the board's > rules of internal procedure: that the board sees to have all RIPE > policies be implemented by the NCC to the greatest extend possible, but > limited to the board's fiduciary duties? > If it makes people happier then I'm sure we could do this. I'm generally against additional complication, especially where past practice doesn't give cause to worry, but as I say it doesn't really bother me. Nigel From dfk at ripe.net Thu Oct 19 12:46:20 2017 From: dfk at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:46:20 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> <53119cdd-f556-7cee-1a4f-70bf2ca25b04@schiefner.de> Message-ID: <0f424ddf-bc9d-f3a7-1cc4-cb407f83f087@ripe.net> On 19/10/2017 12:21, Nigel Titley wrote: > I'm generally against additional complication, especially where past > practice doesn't give cause to worry, but as I say it doesn't really > bother me. For what the opinion of one of the initial architects of this is worth: Complication and over-specification bothers me greatly. Nothing good has ever come of it. A lot of headaches and some real badness have. Any unnecessary formalism creates friction losses at the very least. I encourage everyone proposing additional formalism to first state very clearly the concrete *need* for adding it and to provide examples of concrete instances where the absence of such formalism has caused problems. Speculative instances in the future only count if there is consensus that they are either very likely to occur or have catastrophic consequences. In the latter case additional scrutiny of whether the added formalism will actually prevent the catastrophe is required. Repeat: state a *need* not a desire or other lesser reason. Daniel speaking as co-founder of RIPE, initial architect of the RIPE NCC association, steady contributor to both and *not* speaking as a RIPE NCC employee From isavnin at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 13:10:32 2017 From: isavnin at gmail.com (Alexander Isavnin) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:10:32 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Nigel! Thank you for the answers (in both capacities). Because we are in "RIPE Accountability" thread i do not think, that such answers are sufficient. Yes, it's very unusual combination of Dutch nonprofit, community, some international relations, shared resources etc. I feel you feel skeptical about Accountability Task Force, but unfortunately we need to write down and state openly some things, which are considered "well known" to Internet pioneers. On 2017-10-19 12:17:43 CET, Nigel Titley wrote: > > Did i get right, that "RIPE NCC is secretariat for community" is a fairy tale, told to RIPE Meetings newcomers? > No, RIPE NCC is a membership association which carries out Network > coordination activities on behalf of its membership and generally > governed by policies formulated by the RIPE community. "No it's not fairy tale" or "No, it's not being told"? :) https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/24-Newcomers-Intro_Axel_RIPE74.pdf Slide #3 > > And relations of RIPE NCC to RIPE Community are just 4 letters E I P R in the name? > In practice no, as, except in extremely strange circumstances, the RIPE > NCC conducts activities according to policies formulated by the? RIPE > community. Yes, NCC is not simple association. Accountability of NCC and Community towards each other is a difficult question. > > And Number Resources allocation in this region happens not on behalf of Community, but because of some kind of MoUs signed by Dutch association with American corporation owned by other American corporation? > Completely incorrect. What is correct? What is the role of RIPE Community in the correct answer (and why)? > > And all those are official statements of the RIPE NCC Executive Board? > No they are statements made by me, wearing my Chairman hat. I'm happy to > take off the hat and make the statements as Nigel Titley, Internet > person at large, if it makes you happier. > > What Jim and I were both trying to say, and obviously something got lost > in translation, is that ever since the PDP's inception the NCC has > carried out the policies as formulated by the RIPE Community, without > exception, even when this has cost the RIPE NCC? membership considerable > amounts of money. However, because we are bound by fiduciary duty (ie we > mustn't do anything that's illegal under Dutch law) we *cannot* agree to > do absolutely *anything* that might come out of the policy process. To > take a ludicrous example, suppose the community asked us to sign an MOU > with a Colombian drug cartel, something which under the PDP they could > actually ask us to do, we would decline courteously. This is accountability question. Our task force trying to find approach to such difficult questions. And we hope for your help. "RIPE Chair does what it does" is funny, but not acceptable (for broader audience) answer. Hope for very constructive dialog after Accountability TF presentation. Alexander P. S. Btw, about ludicrous example. You (NCC) already signed MoU with Russian Telco Ministry not asking anyone. With Russian citizen hat on, i think any MoU with Columbian drug cartel will make lesser damage. Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum From dfk at ripe.net Thu Oct 19 13:28:50 2017 From: dfk at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:28:50 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <944947d2-a6ef-b3a8-8cdd-59ea20167295@ripe.net> On 19/10/2017 00:53, William Sylvester wrote: > 1. Do you think the "public benefit" or "the greater good" is a core aspirational factor in decisions made by the RIPE community? Alternatively, are RIPE community members merely working/cooperating for their own benefit? (If the community is only working for its own benefit, why have a last /8 policy that benefits newcomers, for example). RIPE discussions and actions have always had a strong element of considering the benefit of the RIPE community as a whole versus the interests of individuals or smaller groups. We also have a habit of considering the larger Internet community beyond RIPE. As such we have set an example that has often been followed by other regions. This has also enormously strengthened our standing in the world in general. I see no way to effectively formalise this. There is no way we can make effective rules to prevent us from becoming selfish as a group if all of us really want to be. > 2. There is no explicit obligation anywhere that the RIPE NCC will adhere to policies developed by the RIPE community. Strictly speaking, the RIPE NCC is accountable to its membership only. Does the community feel that the RIPE NCC should make a declaration or perhaps sign an MoU stating that it will follow RIPE community policies? This has been beaten to death. For the record: Past practice has shown this to work extremely well. The real reason for this success is that there is a huge overlap between RIPE and the RIPE NCC membership. The system is constructed to ensure this. This overlap, and this overlap alone, ensures that the right things happen. The important reason for RIPE and the RIPE NCC being different is that RIPE is totally open to anyone. This ensures that everyone can be heard without any formal barrier. Once money and contracts come in, a more defined group needs to take decisions. For this we constructed the RIPE NCC as an association, the most democratic legal form we could find. Again: it is the *huge* overlap between the RIPE community and the RIPE NCC membership that makes this work. I know that this is at the margin of the charter of the task force, but: The community needs to watch carefully that the composition of the RIPE NCC membership is such that this overlap continues to exist. If for instance the composition of the RIPE NCC membership were to over-represent a particular group, such as address brokers, the whole system may become unstable. > 3. There is no definition of consensus as it is used within the RIPE community. Is this something that is worth documenting? > We will share some more details on this mailing list after our presentation at RIPE 75. Personally I do not thing this is "worth documenting". See my other message about adding formalism. Additionally: The IETF has a considerable history of work in this area. I suggest we learn from it. I do not suggest we copy it. Daniel speaking as co-founder of RIPE, initial architect of the RIPE NCC association, steady contributor to both and *not* speaking as a RIPE NCC employee From nigel at titley.com Thu Oct 19 13:50:01 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:50:01 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b017c97-03c0-31e9-dc9c-54b3b3b0b888@titley.com> Dear Alexander On 19/10/2017 12:10, Alexander Isavnin wrote: > Dear Nigel! > > Thank you for the answers (in both capacities). > > Because we are in "RIPE Accountability" thread i do not think, that such answers are sufficient. > Yes, it's very unusual combination of Dutch nonprofit, community, some international relations, shared resources etc. > I feel you feel skeptical about Accountability Task Force, but unfortunately we need to write down and state openly some things, which are considered "well known" to Internet pioneers. No, I'm not really sceptical about the TF and you are absolutely right, those of us who've been around a long time sometimes need to take a step back and examine the way we've "always done things" just to make sure we're still doing it right. > > On 2017-10-19 12:17:43 CET, Nigel Titley wrote: >>> Did i get right, that "RIPE NCC is secretariat for community" is a fairy tale, told to RIPE Meetings newcomers? >> No, RIPE NCC is a membership association which carries out Network >> coordination activities on behalf of its membership and generally >> governed by policies formulated by the RIPE community. > "No it's not fairy tale" or "No, it's not being told"? :) > https://ripe74.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/24-Newcomers-Intro_Axel_RIPE74.pdf > Slide #3 No, it's not a fairy tale. Just slice the "No," off the front of the sentence. > > This is accountability question. > Our task force trying to find approach to such difficult questions. > And we hope for your help. > "RIPE Chair does what it does" is funny, but not acceptable (for broader audience) answer. I hope that particular round of arguments is dead... it was foolishness (mostly on my part). > > Hope for very constructive dialog after Accountability TF presentation. Indeed. Looking forward to it. > > Alexander > > P. S. Btw, about ludicrous example. You (NCC) already signed MoU with Russian Telco Ministry not asking anyone. With Russian citizen hat on, i think any MoU with Columbian drug cartel will make lesser damage. > That particular MOU was intended to ease the provision of a near real time feed of the RIPE database to the Russian Telco ministry (at their request). And as far as I know, the Russian Telco Ministry isn't an illegal organisation. All the best Nigel From kurtis at kurtis.pp.se Thu Oct 19 18:27:27 2017 From: kurtis at kurtis.pp.se (Kurt Erik Lindqvist) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:27:27 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> Message-ID: <8AAB36C7-B91F-4432-91B8-AD736DF6E12A@kurtis.pp.se> > On 19 Oct 2017, at 09:24, Jim Reid wrote: > > >> On 18 Oct 2017, at 23:53, William Sylvester wrote: >> >> 1. Do you think the "public benefit" or "the greater good" is a core aspirational factor in decisions made by the RIPE community? Alternatively, are RIPE community members merely working/cooperating for their own benefit? (If the community is only working for its own benefit, why have a last /8 policy that benefits newcomers, for example). > > Depends. Sometimes "public benefit" can have unintended consequences. It's clear -- or should be clear -- the public benefit aspirations apply to stewardship of numbering resources. [But that is less of a concern now that address policy is essentially a no-op these days.] The aspiration would also apply to some outreach activities requested by the community: for instance engagement with law enforcement, regulators and governments. Obviously it also applies to running K and maintaining the database too. I'm not so sure the "greater good" argument holds up so well for other NCC activities since IMO they should probably be spun out from the NCC. I find myself mostly agreeing with Jim here but his examples are more instantiated but the NCC and haven?t really been brought to the RIPE community. Not that I think they would disagree BTW. >> 2. There is no explicit obligation anywhere that the RIPE NCC will adhere to policies developed by the RIPE community. Strictly speaking, the RIPE NCC is accountable to its membership only. Does the community feel that the RIPE NCC should make a declaration or perhaps sign an MoU stating that it will follow RIPE community policies? > > This is a very, very silly idea. Sorry. > > 1) Who would/could sign that MoU with the NCC? The RIPE community has no legal identity (by design) so it cannot enter into a contract or any other quasi-legal agreement. > > 2) If a declaration like this was somehow legally enforcable, that will not help if RIPE develops policies which are opposed by the NCC membership or not in the membership's best interest. If we ever get into a scenario like that, a declaration or MoU is not going to make it easier to resolve the conflict. I think it'll make reconciliation harder. There would be endless meta-arguments about what the MoU means or intended rather than fixing the underlying problem. Add lawyers to taste. > > 3) Suppose RIPE develops a policy that instructs Axel to hand out ?100 banknotes at Centraal Station until the NCC's reserves are gone. Should he do that just because this hypothetical declaration/MoU obliges him to do it? +1 on all that Jim has said above! Many others have already said similar things and I agree with this. > There's probably no need to formalise the NCC-RIPE relationship with anything more than a sentence saying "The NCC (Board) will take account of the policies developed by RIPE whenever it deploys and operates services". ie The NCC listens to RIPE but isn't compelled to obey no matter what. Agreed. But this could be a board resolution. >> 3. There is no definition of consensus as it is used within the RIPE community. Is this something that is worth documenting? > > No. The dictionary definition should be enough. Failing that, there's RFC7282. Yes, and this has been discussed at length before. I would start by evaluating if something new has come to light since then. Best Regards, - kurtis - -- Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CMO London Internet Exchange Ltd, 5th Floor, Monument Place, 24 Monument Street. London. EC3R 8AJ Registered in England number 3137929 Phone: +44 (0) 20 7645 3528 Mobile: +44 (0) 78 8580 7418 https://www.linx.net/ "Working for the Internet" sip:kurtis at linx.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 236 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From tahar.schaa at cassini.de Thu Oct 19 18:52:19 2017 From: tahar.schaa at cassini.de (Schaa, Tahar) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:52:19 +0000 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 In-Reply-To: <0f424ddf-bc9d-f3a7-1cc4-cb407f83f087@ripe.net> References: <7ABB5D16-C9DB-4FB0-82E4-F44F0494B5AA@rfc1035.com> <2047b4ef-74ad-7d0d-2721-3f225acf3156@titley.com> <53119cdd-f556-7cee-1a4f-70bf2ca25b04@schiefner.de> <0f424ddf-bc9d-f3a7-1cc4-cb407f83f087@ripe.net> Message-ID: +1 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr??en Tahar Schaa Management Consultant ? Cassini Consulting GmbH Bennigsen-Platz 1 40474 D?sseldorf T +49 (0) 151 11 44 38 75 mail tahar.schaa at cassini.de ? visit www.cassini.de Think green - keep it on the screen! ? -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: ripe-list [mailto:ripe-list-bounces at ripe.net] Im Auftrag von Daniel Karrenberg Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Oktober 2017 12:46 An: Betreff: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE 75 On 19/10/2017 12:21, Nigel Titley wrote: > I'm generally against additional complication, especially where past > practice doesn't give cause to worry, but as I say it doesn't really > bother me. For what the opinion of one of the initial architects of this is worth: Complication and over-specification bothers me greatly. Nothing good has ever come of it. A lot of headaches and some real badness have. Any unnecessary formalism creates friction losses at the very least. I encourage everyone proposing additional formalism to first state very clearly the concrete *need* for adding it and to provide examples of concrete instances where the absence of such formalism has caused problems. Speculative instances in the future only count if there is consensus that they are either very likely to occur or have catastrophic consequences. In the latter case additional scrutiny of whether the added formalism will actually prevent the catastrophe is required. Repeat: state a *need* not a desire or other lesser reason. Daniel speaking as co-founder of RIPE, initial architect of the RIPE NCC association, steady contributor to both and *not* speaking as a RIPE NCC employee From benno at NLnetLabs.nl Thu Oct 19 21:38:49 2017 From: benno at NLnetLabs.nl (Benno Overeinder) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:38:49 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Programme Committee Nominations Message-ID: Dear Friends and Colleagues, The RIPE Programme Committee is responsible for recruiting and selecting presentations for the RIPE Meeting Plenary sessions. As the term of two RIPE PC members end, we are looking for new members in Autumn 2017 who will be elected by the RIPE community at RIPE 75 in Dubai. There are currently two seats up for election to the RIPE PC. Please send nominations, with a biography, statement of interest and photograph, to pc at ripe.net. The Charter of the RIPE Programme Committee (https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-pc-charter) provides more information about the composition and roles of the RIPE PC. Note that the schedule of RIPE 75 meeting starts on Sunday, and the days we are closing nominations and voting has been pushed one day forward (earlier). Nominations for the RIPE 75 PC elections can be sent in from today until Monday October 23rd, 15:30 GST. We will announce the PC elections at the RIPE meeting opening sessions, but interested parties can nominate themselves from now. We will close candidate nominations on Monday at 15:30 GST (GMT+4), and publish the biographies on the RIPE Meeting web site. Candidates (or their stand-ins) can present themselves at the start of the Monday 16:00 GST session. The RIPE PC online voting system will be open from Monday October 23rd, 16:00 GST until Wednesday October 25th, 17:30 GST, for the community members to cast their votes. The total voting numbers may be public. The official announcement of the elected RIPE PC members will be on Thursday morning, the 26th October, at the start of the 11:00 GST closing plenary session. Questions about the RIPE PC can be sent to pc at ripe.net. Regards, Brian and Benno on behalf of the RIPE PC -- Benno J. Overeinder NLnet Labs http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ From malcolm at linx.net Fri Oct 20 12:11:15 2017 From: malcolm at linx.net (Malcolm Hutty) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:15 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE, 75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5c1286d5-985f-2e60-86bc-0e7e377273eb@linx.net> On 19/10/2017 12:28, ripe-list-request at ripe.net wrote: > What Jim and I were both trying to say, and obviously something got lost > in translation, is that ever since the PDP's inception the NCC has > carried out the policies as formulated by the RIPE Community, without > exception, even when this has cost the RIPE NCC? membership considerable > amounts of money. However, because we are bound by fiduciary duty (ie we > mustn't do anything that's illegal under Dutch law) we *cannot* agree to > do absolutely *anything* that might come out of the policy process. To > take a ludicrous example, suppose the community asked us to sign an MOU > with a Colombian drug cartel, something which under the PDP they could > actually ask us to do, we would decline courteously. Nigel, I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the NCC ought to be bound to implement absolutely anything that comes out of the RIPE community without limitation. You are rather tilting at a straw man of your own creation here. However, when the taskforce asked NCC staff to look into this, they discovered (to their own surprise) that the NCC has no formal document of any nature that sets out a normative expectation that the RIPE NCC will so much as take community policy into account. That seems a curious omission. You are quite right to point out that the NCC has faithfully followed the community's will, and while you and your fellow Board members remain in charge, I am sure it will continue to do so. But part of the purpose of this exercise is to help create the conditions that make it more likely that your legacy in this respect is honoured by those that succeed you. Nothing we do can guarantee that will happen, but writing down that the NCC's history of implementing community policy is more than a mere coincidence of opinion will both help guide future Boards and give ammunition to Board members against anyone who argues that the NCC should do otherwise. Jim correctly pointed out that the community itself, not being an entity with legal personality, cannot sign an MoU. That removes one option for how such a normative statement might be recorded - but there are several others. The NCC does, after all, have contracts with its members. Personally, I think a better idea that I would like to see considered is to write into the RIPE NCC's governing statutes that one of the purposes of the NCC is to implement RIPE community policy. Of course this phrase would have to be suitable qualified to avoid the pitfall you mention, but I do not think that insurmountable, or even difficult: the NCC does have lawyers, after all. Finally, may I gently suggest that the extremely defensive attitude of some prominent community members to the work of this Taskforce is not a good look. Most of us are reasonably long-standing members of the community ourselves, and fully share both its values and well-proven way of doing things. Our aim is to support this community, not to undermine it. As William has said, nothing we come up with will simply go into effect: we will simply publish some systematic observations and suggestions for the community's consideration. Perhaps you might try to remain a little more open to the possibility that our report might be worth the trouble of reading, maybe even contain one or two useful ideas? Kind Regards, Malcolm. -- Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523 Head of Public Affairs | Read the LINX Public Affairs blog London Internet Exchange | http://publicaffairs.linx.net/ London Internet Exchange Ltd Monument Place, 24 Monument Street London EC3R 8AJ Company Registered in England No. 3137929 Trinity Court, Trinity Street, Peterborough PE1 1DA From nigel at titley.com Sat Oct 21 10:12:28 2017 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 09:12:28 +0100 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE, 75 In-Reply-To: <5c1286d5-985f-2e60-86bc-0e7e377273eb@linx.net> References: <5c1286d5-985f-2e60-86bc-0e7e377273eb@linx.net> Message-ID: <2bdb1f2b-274e-01de-a008-9fb0135e0f95@titley.com> Malcolm On 20/10/2017 11:11, Malcolm Hutty wrote: > > I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the NCC ought to be > bound to implement absolutely anything that comes out of the RIPE > community without limitation. You are rather tilting at a straw man of > your own creation here. Well, whereas I have every faith in the good sense of the RIPE community, I think we have to accept that the work of the Accountability TF will have a wider audience. And straw men have an alarming habit of coming to life when they come within the purview of lawyers, politicians and the like. > > However, when the taskforce asked NCC staff to look into this, they > discovered (to their own surprise) that the NCC has no formal document > of any nature that sets out a normative expectation that the RIPE NCC > will so much as take community policy into account. That seems a curious > omission. I think this lies in the origins of both the RIPE NCC and the PDP. The first existed before the second and the second came about while the community still knew that the RIPE NCC would Do the Right Thing. In these less honourable times, such a document, in whatever form it takes, may well be necessary. > > You are quite right to point out that the NCC has faithfully followed > the community's will, and while you and your fellow Board members remain > in charge, I am sure it will continue to do so. But part of the purpose > of this exercise is to help create the conditions that make it more > likely that your legacy in this respect is honoured by those that > succeed you. Nothing we do can guarantee that will happen, but writing > down that the NCC's history of implementing community policy is more > than a mere coincidence of opinion will both help guide future Boards > and give ammunition to Board members against anyone who argues that the > NCC should do otherwise. I have no problem with this. We just have to be exceptionally careful to guard against the principle of unintended consequences... something with which the community is becoming more and more familiar in recent years. > Jim correctly pointed out that the community itself, not being an entity > with legal personality, cannot sign an MoU. That removes one option for > how such a normative statement might be recorded - but there are several > others. The NCC does, after all, have contracts with its members. > > Personally, I think a better idea that I would like to see considered is > to write into the RIPE NCC's governing statutes that one of the purposes > of the NCC is to implement RIPE community policy. Of course this phrase > would have to be suitable qualified to avoid the pitfall you mention, > but I do not think that insurmountable, or even difficult: the NCC does > have lawyers, after all. And I'm sure it is something that can and will be looked at. As you so rightly point out, in these less than honourable times, it does seems a curious omission. > > Finally, may I gently suggest that the extremely defensive attitude of > some prominent community members to the work of this Taskforce is not a > good look. Most of us are reasonably long-standing members of the > community ourselves, and fully share both its values and well-proven way > of doing things. Our aim is to support this community, not to undermine it. I would beware of reading more into emails than was intended by the sender. Certainly in my case, I have the greatest respect for the work that the Accountability task force is doing and very grateful to those who have put in the time. You did however ask for comments and you shouldn't be surprised to get them. > > As William has said, nothing we come up with will simply go into effect: > we will simply publish some systematic observations and suggestions for > the community's consideration. Perhaps you might try to remain a little > more open to the possibility that our report might be worth the trouble > of reading, maybe even contain one or two useful ideas? See the above... and may I gently suggest that you should also try to be a little less defensive too. And please don't read more into that comment than I intend. Imagine me with a big smile on my face. Best regards Nigel From dfk at ripe.net Sat Oct 21 10:20:56 2017 From: dfk at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 12:20:56 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Accountability Task Force Update at RIPE, 75 In-Reply-To: <5c1286d5-985f-2e60-86bc-0e7e377273eb@linx.net> References: <5c1286d5-985f-2e60-86bc-0e7e377273eb@linx.net> Message-ID: On 20/10/2017 14:11, Malcolm Hutty wrote: > However, when the taskforce asked NCC staff to look into this, they > discovered (to their own surprise) that the NCC has no formal document > of any nature that sets out a normative expectation that the RIPE NCC > will so much as take community policy into account. That seems a curious > omission. I agree this is not easy to find. But it is there: ripe-161 - "A New Structure for the RIPE NCC / De-Facto Organisational Rules (Revised)" states: "The RNA (RIPE NCC Association, dfk) will be advised by the well established informal group of technical experts known as RIPE (Reseaux IP Europeens)." ripe-350 - "Policy Development Process in RIPE" states: "Since its creation in 1989, RIPE has from time to time agreed on common practices. These common practices may come in different forms and/or under different names: - best common practice (or BCP), - recommendations to the community, - requests to the RIPE NCC, - recommendations to the RIPE NCC, - or just policy." The PDP has evolved; it closely involves the RIPE NCC in the policy process. The one thing you will not find is an *obligation* of the RIPE NCC Association to do exactly what RIPE requests. It has been pointed out that this is not feasible to achieve in any formal sense. I repeat: The architecture of RIPE and the RIPE NCC is constructed such that the *huge* overlap between RIPE participants and RIPE NCC members ensures that the RIPE NCC association acts on requests and recommendations from the RIPE community. The overlap prevents serious conflicts between RIPE and the RIPE NCC. Aside: ripe-161 also deals with defenses against capture of the RIPE NCC Association. It may be worth checking if these defenses are still effective after the various changes to the RIPE NCC Articles in recent years. This appears to be outside the scope of this task force, but I would support if the task force recommended this be looked at. > You are quite right to point out that the NCC has faithfully followed > the community's will, and while you and your fellow Board members remain > in charge, I am sure it will continue to do so. But part of the purpose > of this exercise is to help create the conditions that make it more > likely that your legacy in this respect is honoured by those that > succeed you. Nothing we do can guarantee that will happen, but writing > down that the NCC's history of implementing community policy is more > than a mere coincidence of opinion will both help guide future Boards > and give ammunition to Board members against anyone who argues that the > NCC should do otherwise. I have no objection at all against writing down the history and documenting the status quo in an informal and informative way. I have indeed offered several times to support the task force in this endeavor by contributing my first-hand knowledge of the evolution of RIPE and the RIPE NCC. Maybe the task force could best look at updating ripe-161 as a first action? > Jim correctly pointed out that the community itself, not being an entity > with legal personality, cannot sign an MoU. That removes one option for > how such a normative statement might be recorded - but there are several > others. The NCC does, after all, have contracts with its members. > > Personally, I think a better idea that I would like to see considered is > to write into the RIPE NCC's governing statutes that one of the purposes > of the NCC is to implement RIPE community policy. Of course this phrase > would have to be suitable qualified to avoid the pitfall you mention, > but I do not think that insurmountable, or even difficult: the NCC does > have lawyers, after all. I'll repeat myself: "I encourage everyone proposing additional formalism to first state very clearly the concrete *need* for adding it and to provide examples of concrete instances where the absence of such formalism has caused problems. Speculative instances in the future only count if there is consensus that they are either very likely to occur or have catastrophic consequences. In the latter case additional scrutiny of whether the added formalism will actually prevent the catastrophe is required. Repeat: state a *need* not a desire or other lesser reason." > Finally, may I gently suggest that the extremely defensive attitude of > some prominent community members to the work of this Taskforce is not a > good look. Most of us are reasonably long-standing members of the > community ourselves, and fully share both its values and well-proven way > of doing things. Our aim is to support this community, not to undermine it. [all substance of this message above this line. no *need* to read on.] Malcolm, In the unlikely event your characterization of "prominent" and "defensive" meant to include me ;-) ... I assure you that I am not defensive, not in the least! I have done my part, specifically for RIPE and the RIPE NCC. Both have been spectacularly successful. In addition to a lot of other useful things we have made and implemented policies that successfully managed the exhaustion of IPv4, a finite resource! This has great impact on businesses and individuals. I have nothing to prove or to be defensive about. However I do care greatly about the future of RIPE and the RIPE NCC. Anything can almost always be improved, but I also firmly believe in keeping things as simple as possible. I am naturally skeptical of adding new parts to an existing system unless there is a clearly established need to do so. "In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." (Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry) The task force chair asked some concrete questions to the community and I gave my personal and reasoned answers. I'll let the community decide how that looks. Let me assure you that I have great respect for anyone doing volunteer work in RIPE. Fortunately we have a long tradition in RIPE to arrive at consensus through discussion. Such discussions are not always easy and without disagreements. I always assume everyone has the best intentions until clearly proven otherwise by their actions, however "The road to dysfunctional complexity is paved with good intentions" (Bernard de Clairveaux, paraphrased). I am looking forward to more discussion at the meeting starting tomorrow. Daniel speaking as co-founder of RIPE, initial co-architect of the RIPE NCC association, steady contributor to both and *not* speaking as a RIPE NCC employee From meeting at ripe.net Sun Oct 22 10:14:55 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:14:55 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Opens Today Message-ID: <11baa9fc-1732-2822-0a81-3dae683d9f99@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, RIPE Chair Hans Petter Holen will open the RIPE 75 Meeting in Dubai today at 14:00 local time (UTC +4). If you cannot be at RIPE 75 in person, you can follow the meeting and participate remotely by viewing the live webcast and using the chat facilities here: https://ripe75.ripe.net/attend/about-remote-participation To stay up-to-date with all RIPE Meeting updates, follow us on Twitter: @ripemeeting, #ripe75 Kind regards, Martina Conference Coordinator RIPE NCC From marcoh at ripe.net Sun Oct 22 12:40:01 2017 From: marcoh at ripe.net (Marco Hogewoning) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 14:40:01 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] Reminder: RIPE 75 IoT session and discussion on an IoT WG (Tuesday 24 October) Message-ID: <13432A35-3E81-4649-9C52-DFEEA5BC9886@ripe.net> Dear Colleagues, Following the Birds-of-a-Feather sessions during RIPE 73 and RIPE 74, some members of the RIPE community have been discussing the possibility of establishing a RIPE IoT Working Group. Apart from the face-to-face meetings mentioned and the recent RIPE IoT Roundtable Meeting in Leeds, this discussion has taken place on the RIPE iot-discussion mailing list. The archives of this are available via https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-lists/iot-discussion During RIPE 74 closing plenary, the community agreed to dedicate a session to the Internet of Things. This session will take place as part of the RIPE 75 programme, on Tuesday 24 October at 14:00 local time (10:00 UTC) in the main room. As part of the agenda, we intend to continue the discussion about the need for and charter of a possible Internet of Things Working Group, with the aim to present the results to the RIPE 75 closing plenary. We kindly invite you all to participate in this discussion, either here on site in Dubai or via the remote participation available via the meeting website: https://ripe75.ripe.net. Of course, we also welcome any feedback on this via the iot-discusison mailing list. Regards, Marco Hogewoning RIPE 75 IoT Session Coordinator From meeting at ripe.net Mon Oct 23 07:30:08 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:30:08 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Highlights - Day 1 Message-ID: <302ab31f-97b8-13f2-2b61-b9fd5cf307aa@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, RIPE 75 started yesterday in Dubai with 387 attendees checked in by the day's end. The highlights of the day are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/sunday/ Day 2 has already begun with a full day of plenary presentations: - Build Your Own Version of NetNorad Using Open Source Tools - Network Monitoring at Scale - Creating Connectivity: How Networkers Manufacture the Good of the Internet - Establishing Jurisdiction Online: The Problem of the Access-Based Jurisdictional Principle - We Care about Data Quality - Recent BGP Innovations for Operational Challenges - A Curious Case of Broken DNS Responses - The Death of Transit and Beyond - RIPE Accountability Task Force - IX-F and the African IXP Association - Lightning Talks If you can't be here in person, you can participate remotely: https://ripe75.ripe.net/live/main/ And follow #RIPE75 and @RIPEMeeting on Twitter for the latest updates. Kind regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE NCC From mark.tinka at seacom.mu Tue Oct 24 05:58:14 2017 From: mark.tinka at seacom.mu (Mark Tinka) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 05:58:14 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] Fwd: [apops] APRICOT 2018 Call for Presentations In-Reply-To: <0c399e07-baf5-8da4-775c-54bb86a5877a@gmail.com> References: <0c399e07-baf5-8da4-775c-54bb86a5877a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Greetings - FYI. Mark. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [apops] APRICOT 2018 Call for Presentations Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 20:27:00 +1000 From: Philip Smith To: apops at apops.net Hi everyone, The call for presentations for APRICOT 2018 has now been published - a copy is below FYI. philip -- Asia Pacific Regional Internet Conference on Operational Technologies (APRICOT) 25th - 28th February 2018, Kathmandu, Nepal https://2018.apricot.net CALL FOR PAPERS =============== The APRICOT 2018 Programme Committee is now seeking contributions for Presentations and Tutorials for the APRICOT 2018 Conference. We are looking for presenters who would: - Offer a technical tutorial on an appropriate topic; - Participate in the technical conference sessions as a speaker; - Convene and chair panel sessions of relevant topics. Please submit on-line at: http://papers.apricot.net/user/login.php?event=63 CONFERENCE MILESTONES --------------------- Call for Papers Opens: Now Draft Program Published: As Papers Confirmed Final Deadline for Submissions: 26 January 2018 Final Program Published: 2 February 2018 Final Slides Received: 16 February 2018 *NOTE THAT REGARDLESS OF DEADLINES, SLOTS ARE FILLED ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVED BASIS* PROGRAMME MATERIAL ------------------ The APRICOT Conference Programme consists of three parts, these being the Peering Forum, Tutorials, and Conference Tracks. Topics proposed must be relevant to Internet Operations and Technologies: - IPv4 / IPv6 Routing and Operations - IPv6 deployment and transition technologies - Internet backbone operations - ISP and Carrier services - IXPs and Peering - Research on Internet Operations and Deployment - Software Defined Networking / Network Function Virtualisaton - Network security issues (NSP-SEC, DDoS, Anti-Spam, Anti-Malware) - DNS / DNSSEC - Internet policy (Security, Regulation, Content Management, Addressing, etc) - Access and Transport Technologies, including Cable/DSL, LTE/5G, wireless, metro ethernet, fibre, segment routing - Content & Service Delivery (Multicast, Voice, Video, "telepresence", Gaming) and Cloud Computing CfP SUBMISSION -------------- Draft slides for both tutorials and conference sessions MUST be provided with CfP submissions otherwise the Programme Committee will be unable to review the submission. For avoidance of doubt this means that submissions which do not include slides will be rejected immediately. For work in progress, the most current information available at time of submission is acceptable. All draft and complete slides must be submitted in PDF format only. Final slides are to be provided by the specified deadline for publication on the APRICOT website. Prospective presenters should note that the majority of speaking slots will be filled well before the final submission deadline. The PC may, at their discretion, retain a limited number of slots up to the final submission deadline for presentations that are exceptionally timely, important, or of critical operational importance. Every year we turn away submissions, due to filling up all available programme slots before the deadline. Presenters should endeavour to get material into the PC sooner rather than later. Any questions or concerns should be addressed to the Programme Committee by e-mail at: pc-chairs at apricot.net We look forward to receiving your presentation proposals. Mark Tinka, Jonny Martin & Philip Smith Co-Chairs, APRICOT 2018 Programme Committee -- _______________________________________________ apops mailing list apops at apops.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/apops Website: www.apops.net . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From meeting at ripe.net Tue Oct 24 07:39:00 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:39:00 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Highlights - Day 2 Message-ID: <4c947e98-6f38-1050-ae82-b3152e9dbf4a@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, Day two of RIPE 75 saw over 440 checked in attendees gather together at the Conrad Hotel, Dubai. The highlights of the day are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/monday/ On the agenda today: RIPE Working Group sessions from Address Policy, MAT, Connect and RIPE NCC Services and an IoT session. The RIPE NCC General Meeting takes place today following the RIPE NCC Services Working Group session. If you can't be here in person, you can participate remotely: https://ripe75.ripe.net/live/ And be sure to follow #RIPE75 and @RIPEMeeting on Twitter for the latest updates. Kind regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE NCC From meeting at ripe.net Wed Oct 25 07:34:39 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 09:34:39 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Highlights - Day 3 Message-ID: <40e1971d-a9b4-e612-6b0c-230f23f10225@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, There were more than 460 attendees checked in on the third day of RIPE 75 at the Conrad Hotel, Dubai. The highlights of the day are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/tuesday/ On the agenda today: RIPE Working Group sessions from Routing, Cooperation, Open Source, Anti-Abuse, Database, DNS and IPv6. Alongside the RIPE Meeting, the RIPE NCC General Meeting took place and electronic voting runs until 9:00 UTC+4 tomorrow. Results will be announced at 10:45 UTC+4 tomorrow. If you can't be here in person, you can participate remotely: https://ripe75.ripe.net/live/ And be sure to follow #RIPE75 and @RIPEMeeting on Twitter for the latest updates. Kind regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE NCC From meeting at ripe.net Thu Oct 26 08:38:29 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:38:29 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Highlights - Day 4 Message-ID: <96c52121-9d77-5479-7922-05df2e0a5456@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, Day four of RIPE 75 saw over 483 checked in attendees gather together at the Conrad Hotel, Dubai. The highlights of the day are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/wednesday/ On the agenda today: NRO/RIR Reports and the Closing Plenary If you can't be here in person, you can participate remotely: https://ripe75.ripe.net/live/ And be sure to follow #RIPE75 and @RIPEMeeting on Twitter for the latest updates. Kind regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE NCC From ripencc-management at ripe.net Thu Oct 26 10:38:11 2017 From: ripencc-management at ripe.net (Axel Pawlik) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 12:38:11 +0400 Subject: [ripe-list] Herve Clement Appointed to NRO NC Message-ID: <06e14bcefd22ce9fb926381ec68d931c@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, Herv? Cl?ment has been appointed to the Number Resource Organization Number Council (NRO NC) by the RIPE NCC Executive Board. The announcement was made during the General Meeting (GM) alongside RIPE 75 in Dubai on 26 October 2017. Herv? will serve a three-year term from 1 January 2018 to 31 December 2020. Kind regards, Axel Pawlik Managing Director RIPE NCC From meeting at ripe.net Fri Oct 27 11:28:32 2017 From: meeting at ripe.net (Martina De Mas) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:28:32 +0200 Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Meeting Report Message-ID: <08e19ca2-d9d5-a426-94dd-3fc529506489@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, The RIPE 75 Meeting successfully ended yesterday in Dubai. There were 483 people in attendance from 59 countries, including a sizeable jump in the number of first-time attendees (36%)! Notable highlights of the meeting week included the formation of a new Internet of Things Working Group and the very first "Women in Tech" lunch featuring presentations from women working in the Middle East region. Read the meeting report here: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/ Archives of all the meeting's presentations are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/archives/ If you were at the meeting, please take a few moments to take our very short feedback survey: https://ripe75.ripe.net/feedback/ RIPE 76 will take place in Marseille from 14-18 May 2017: https://ripe76.ripe.net/ See you there! Best regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE Network Coordination Centre From Bornstaedt at telekom.de Fri Oct 27 12:10:33 2017 From: Bornstaedt at telekom.de (Bornstaedt at telekom.de) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:10:33 +0000 Subject: [ripe-list] ripe-list Digest, Vol 72, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D2783B4-B972-43CD-8060-779D4A55FC50@telekom.de> Im Flugzeug Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 27.10.2017 um 14:00 schrieb "ripe-list-request at ripe.net" >: Send ripe-list mailing list submissions to ripe-list at ripe.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ripe-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ripe-list-request at ripe.net You can reach the person managing the list at ripe-list-owner at ripe.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ripe-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RIPE 75 Meeting Report (Martina De Mas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:28:32 +0200 From: Martina De Mas > To: ripe-list at ripe.net Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE 75 Meeting Report Message-ID: <08e19ca2-d9d5-a426-94dd-3fc529506489 at ripe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Dear colleagues, The RIPE 75 Meeting successfully ended yesterday in Dubai. There were 483 people in attendance from 59 countries, including a sizeable jump in the number of first-time attendees (36%)! Notable highlights of the meeting week included the formation of a new Internet of Things Working Group and the very first "Women in Tech" lunch featuring presentations from women working in the Middle East region. Read the meeting report here: https://ripe75.ripe.net/programme/report/ Archives of all the meeting's presentations are online: https://ripe75.ripe.net/archives/ If you were at the meeting, please take a few moments to take our very short feedback survey: https://ripe75.ripe.net/feedback/ RIPE 76 will take place in Marseille from 14-18 May 2017: https://ripe76.ripe.net/ See you there! Best regards, Martina de Mas Conference Coordinator RIPE Network Coordination Centre End of ripe-list Digest, Vol 72, Issue 13 ***************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: