[ncc-services-wg] ncc-services-wg Digest, Vol 118, Issue 20

If you do not have a legitimate solution - just do not touch anything.

If _some_ of UA LIRs are afraid of something - help _them_.

Why make a lot of problems to _all_ UA LIRs by knowlingly non-legitimate 
solution, wrapped to a bureaucratic justification ("it is not a ban, it 
is an escalation")?

20.12.22 01:19, Serg Galat пише:
> Dear colleague,
> 
> To my mind you don't see the latest RIPE event.
> Or didn't look carefully.
> 
> I'm fully agree with point 1 of your speech.
> That is, there is a problem. But there's no solution, or a legitimate solution.
> 
> Stop transfer from UA to RU LIRs? Ok, but such transfers usual not to RU LIRs.
> Accept transfers from UA to UA? Okay, but what territory of the UA at the time of confirmation is under occupation? And how RIPE NCC know it's surely?
> 
> And RIPE NCC is not blocking transfers by himself. The part of ua LIRs ask NCC to do that. Temporarily.
> Until this working group adopts the necessary changes to the relevant polices.
> 
> So no cynicism and naivety. Or something similar. That's if it's fair.
> 
> 
> 
>> On 19 Dec 2022, at 23:09, Serhii Khomenko <khomenko.serhii.m at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I still will not get tired of being surprised at how naive people who live in civilized European countries. Although, maybe it's just a cynicism.
>>
>> 1. The only reason why we are discussing this topic (limiting the rights of Ukrainian companies) is the aggression of the russians. They are the only ones who can steal blocks of addresses in Ukraine, threatening the holders of Internet resources with death.
>> Instead of punishing the aggressor, you implement restrictions on the victim of aggression.
>> -- I assume that this is cynicism.
>>
>> 2. If you did not know, notary services are not for free. We are all Ukrainians now actively sponsoring the Armed Forces of Ukraine who are the only guarantor of the security of our companies. And instead of sending funds to strengthen the defense of Ukraine, you want to implement on us the obligation to pay an additional fees for the notary services. Thank you so much for your "support".
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> 3. As we have already determined, the only reason for your concern and maniacal desire to violently protect the resources of Ukrainian companies is russians.
>>
>> Also, everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of russists came not only to Ukraine, but also to dozens of countries of the European Union. And they can do whatever they want on the territory of the EU: the Skripal case, the Litvinenko case etc. The only difference is that Ukrainians have learned  how to mix them with the soil. European countries do not know how to do this. So your companies are more vulnerable to the russians. Why don't you change the RIPE policy to limit the rights for companies throughout the territory of RIPE? Why don't you want to oblige European companies to pay for notary services during transfers as well or stop any transfers through all the RIPE countries at all?
>>
>> -- Cynicism? Yes cynicism.
>>
>> 4. Why don't you want to implement a single effective way to protect all companies within the RIPE —- blocking all transfers to a single criminal -- the russians??? And it will not be necessary to impose restrictions of the rights and freedoms for the European companies.
>> But you won't do that - too much money comes from russists to RIPE, and everyone knows it.
>>
>> - You know nothing about European values, unless these values are refined mercantile cynicism.
>>
>>
>> IMPLEMENT YOUR RESTRICTIONS FOR russia NOT FOR UKRAINE!!
>> Or implement the same new policy for the whole RIPE region otherwise it will be discrimination of Ukraine based on national origin.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Serhii
>>
>> пн, 19 груд. 2022 р. о 14:47 <ncc-services-wg-request at ripe.net> пише:
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>     1. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Sander Steffann)
>>     2. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Max Tulyev)
>>     3. Re: Survey among Ukrainian companies and Lirs (Olha Sira)
>>     4. Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks
>>        (Hans Petter Holen)
>>     5. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks
>>        (Sander Steffann)
>>     6. Re: Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks (Max Tulyev)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:50:06 +0100
>> From: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
>> To: Max Tulyev <president at ukraine.su>
>> Cc: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and
>>          Lirs
>> Message-ID: <1CC41DBA-FB29-44BF-9142-17F268C35DF1 at steffann.nl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Hi Max,
>>
>>> Of course they will not reply.
>>>
>>> We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
>>
>> Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself
>> Sander
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:56:37 +0200
>> From: Max Tulyev <president at ukraine.su>
>> To: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and
>>          Lirs
>> Message-ID: <5618df1b-1012-cd57-e7a0-1455c83193fa at ukraine.su>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>
>> If I see no clear reason for some action, I will come up with the most
>> appropriate one. And it is not good for sure. Because it looks like this
>> I said.
>>
>> 19.12.22 15:50, Sander Steffann ????:
>>> Hi Max,
>>>
>>>> Of course they will not reply.
>>>>
>>>> We are seeing now the finish of "afrinicization" of RIPE NCC. NCC is no more community and consensus driving. They works on behalf on some "crystal clear" government people, probably for free, but I'm not sure.
>>>
>>> Please keep such unfounded accusations to yourself
>>> Sander
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 14:15:10 +0000
>> From: Olha Sira <vasylevych at gmail.com>
>> To: "ncc-services-wg at ripe.net" <ncc-services-wg at ripe.net>
>> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Survey among Ukrainian companies and
>>          Lirs
>> Message-ID:
>>          <CAENpxnRwX2iSbMNig5i93SMDd_P99Sb3XY5WY07yEQk9zbu-Ug at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> +1
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 1:38 PM Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel at staclar.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Delays are expected, but it now seems like transfers are paused entirely.
>>> If this is not the case then perhaps the NCC should clarify?
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Matthias Merkel
>>> [image: Sent from Front]
>>>
>>> On December 19, 2022 at 2:37 PM GMT+1 pbd.ripe.ncc.services.wg at urdn.com.ua
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Matthias Merkel <matthias.merkel at staclar.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Can we get any kind of official statement from the RIPE NCC on the
>>>> current status on this?
>>>
>>> The explanation for the extra delays was made on this mailing list by
>>> Hans Petter Holen on Wed, 2 Nov 2022:
>>>
>>>> As an immediate response, all transfer requests from Ukrainian
>>>> networks will be escalated to me until further notice. We will of
>>>> course continue to apply the highest levels of due diligence when
>>>> reviewing these requests. This will add some amount of delay, which
>>>> I think is entirely appropriate under the circumstances and given
>>>> the seriousness of the concerns that have been raised.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, if the delays would become too important, I suppose this
>>> decision should be reversed.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change
>>> your subscription options, please visit:
>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change
>>> your subscription options, please visit:
>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/ncc-services-wg
>>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/attachments/20221219/44c6ac1a/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:18:42 +0100
>> From: Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce at ripe.net>
>> To: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net
>> Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian
>>          Networks
>> Message-ID: <d9293ab5-c4d1-edb9-e7aa-d249d910fb1a at ripe.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> I want to update you on measures to protect the resources of RIPE NCC
>> members in Ukraine following my last email in October[1].
>>
>> After discussions with our Executive Board, we are now ready to begin
>> implementation of a ?voluntary registry lock? in the LIR Portal. This
>> will be available for all RIPE NCC members, including those in Ukraine,
>> on an opt-in basis. The lock will allow members to prevent their
>> resources from being transferred for a defined period. We expect
>> technical implementation to be completed before the end of the year.
>>
>> The authority to implement this feature comes from a Board resolution
>> that was passed at the 163rd RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting on 14-15
>> December 2022. The effect of the resolution is that Members and End
>> Users (represented by their sponsoring LIRs) will be allowed to request
>> the prevention of their resources from being transferred for a period of
>> six months. And all transfer requests from Ukraine, including the
>> pending ones, will only be processed if accompanied by notarised
>> supporting documents. We will contact all Ukrainian members with pending
>> transfers to make sure they are aware of these requirements. And for
>> members with pending transfers who wish to make them before the end of
>> the year, we will not charge fees for 2023 if these extra requirements
>> mean that the LIR accounts in question cannot be closed by the end of 2022.
>>
>> The Board made this resolution taking into account:
>> - The concerns expressed by Ukrainian members at the RIPE 85 Meeting in
>> October 2022
>> - The RIPE NCC?s commitment to be neutral and impartial
>> - The time needed for the formation of a permanent solution addressing
>> these concerns through the Policy Development Process (PDP)
>> - The RIPE community?s support to accommodate a temporary solution
>>
>> This resolution comes with an expiry date of 1 July 2023. We hope that
>> the RIPE community will use this time to agree on a policy proposal that
>> gives us a clear mandate to provide this lock as a lasting solution to
>> all members who see the need for it. Our Policy Officer is available to
>> offer guidance and administrative support to get the proposal through
>> the RIPE Policy Development Process.
>>
>>   From comments at RIPE 85, we understand that some people do not think
>> this should be a policy matter. However, as we explained at that
>> meeting, the RIPE NCC cannot limit the transfer rights of paying members
>> without either a solid legal basis or a clear mandate from the RIPE
>> community.
>>
>> It is in this context that we must note that the lock will not prevent
>> resources from being transferred in cases of merger or acquisition. It
>> will also not prevent transfers in cases where a bankrupt company goes
>> into liquidation.
>>
>> Finally, in my last email, I said that requests from Ukraine would
>> receive the ?highest levels of due diligence?, and I want to explain
>> what this means. In recent years, we have developed a framework that
>> describes what information our staff will ask for when handling
>> requests. By applying the strongest approach within this framework, we
>> will be going beyond our standard requirements and asking to verify
>> additional documents. With the passing of this resolution, transfers
>> will follow the process outlined here and will not be escalated to the
>> Managing Director for approval.
>>
>> We hope that our Ukrainian members will understand that this is part of
>> our efforts to protect their resources.
>>
>> As mentioned above, we will share more specific information on the
>> registry lock before the end of the year ? including how it can be
>> activated and by whom, and what it does and does not restrict.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Hans Petter Holen
>> Managing Director
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>> [1] Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks:
>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/2022-November/003668.html
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:30:08 +0100
>> From: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
>> To: Hans Petter Holen <hph+announce at ripe.net>
>> Cc: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian
>>          Networks
>> Message-ID: <93AB4F9E-5E53-4C4C-AD52-7467146085C5 at steffann.nl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>>
>> Hi Hans Petter,
>>
>>> After discussions with our Executive Board, we are now ready to begin implementation of a ?voluntary registry lock? in the LIR Portal. This will be available for all RIPE NCC members, including those in Ukraine, on an opt-in basis. The lock will allow members to prevent their resources from being transferred for a defined period. We expect technical implementation to be completed before the end of the year.
>>
>> Awesome! Thank you and the board for getting this difficult step done.
>>
>>> The Board made this resolution taking into account:
>>> - The concerns expressed by Ukrainian members at the RIPE 85 Meeting in October 2022
>>> - The RIPE NCC?s commitment to be neutral and impartial
>>> - The time needed for the formation of a permanent solution addressing these concerns through the Policy Development Process (PDP)
>>> - The RIPE community?s support to accommodate a temporary solution
>>
>> +1 much appreciated!
>>
>>> This resolution comes with an expiry date of 1 July 2023. We hope that the RIPE community will use this time to agree on a policy proposal that gives us a clear mandate to provide this lock as a lasting solution to all members who see the need for it. Our Policy Officer is available to offer guidance and administrative support to get the proposal through the RIPE Policy Development Process.
>>
>> After making so much noise I feel I should volunteer here :)
>>
>>>  From comments at RIPE 85, we understand that some people do not think this should be a policy matter. However, as we explained at that meeting, the RIPE NCC cannot limit the transfer rights of paying members without either a solid legal basis or a clear mandate from the RIPE community.
>>
>> I still think that limiting an LIR based on their own request shouldn?t be a problem, but ok, let?s work together on this and get a policy.
>>
>>> It is in this context that we must note that the lock will not prevent resources from being transferred in cases of merger or acquisition. It will also not prevent transfers in cases where a bankrupt company goes into liquidation.
>>
>> Sensible limitations, I have no problem with them.
>>
>>> Finally, in my last email, I said that requests from Ukraine would receive the ?highest levels of due diligence?, and I want to explain what this means. In recent years, we have developed a framework that describes what information our staff will ask for when handling requests. By applying the strongest approach within this framework, we will be going beyond our standard requirements and asking to verify additional documents. With the passing of this resolution, transfers will follow the process outlined here and will not be escalated to the Managing Director for approval.
>>
>> Sounds good, you shouldn?t need to involve yourself in the workflow. You have very experienced staff for that :)
>>
>>> We hope that our Ukrainian members will understand that this is part of our efforts to protect their resources.
>>>
>>> As mentioned above, we will share more specific information on the registry lock before the end of the year ? including how it can be activated and by whom, and what it does and does not restrict.
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Sander
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 16:46:57 +0200
>> From: Max Tulyev <president at ukraine.su>
>> To: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [ncc-services-wg] Update on Measures to Protect Ukrainian
>>          Networks
>> Message-ID: <f677f97b-bd50-2adf-99dc-7c19f6d60af5 at ukraine.su>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>
>> Dear Hans,
>>
>> I see a lot of words, but only one fact: it is unable to make a transfer
>> since October because of (unofficial) ban exists.
>>
>> You did not have mandate (consensus) from the community, but in fact you
>> did it.
>>
>> Please, retire yourself from your position. Save the RIPE/RIPE NCC
>> relations!
>>
>> 19.12.22 16:18, Hans Petter Holen ????:
>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>
>>> I want to update you on measures to protect the resources of RIPE NCC
>>> members in Ukraine following my last email in October[1].
>>>
>>> After discussions with our Executive Board, we are now ready to begin
>>> implementation of a ?voluntary registry lock? in the LIR Portal. This
>>> will be available for all RIPE NCC members, including those in Ukraine,
>>> on an opt-in basis. The lock will allow members to prevent their
>>> resources from being transferred for a defined period. We expect
>>> technical implementation to be completed before the end of the year.
>>>
>>> The authority to implement this feature comes from a Board resolution
>>> that was passed at the 163rd RIPE NCC Executive Board Meeting on 14-15
>>> December 2022. The effect of the resolution is that Members and End
>>> Users (represented by their sponsoring LIRs) will be allowed to request
>>> the prevention of their resources from being transferred for a period of
>>> six months. And all transfer requests from Ukraine, including the
>>> pending ones, will only be processed if accompanied by notarised
>>> supporting documents. We will contact all Ukrainian members with pending
>>> transfers to make sure they are aware of these requirements. And for
>>> members with pending transfers who wish to make them before the end of
>>> the year, we will not charge fees for 2023 if these extra requirements
>>> mean that the LIR accounts in question cannot be closed by the end of 2022.
>>>
>>> The Board made this resolution taking into account:
>>> - The concerns expressed by Ukrainian members at the RIPE 85 Meeting in
>>> October 2022
>>> - The RIPE NCC?s commitment to be neutral and impartial
>>> - The time needed for the formation of a permanent solution addressing
>>> these concerns through the Policy Development Process (PDP)
>>> - The RIPE community?s support to accommodate a temporary solution
>>>
>>> This resolution comes with an expiry date of 1 July 2023. We hope that
>>> the RIPE community will use this time to agree on a policy proposal that
>>> gives us a clear mandate to provide this lock as a lasting solution to
>>> all members who see the need for it. Our Policy Officer is available to
>>> offer guidance and administrative support to get the proposal through
>>> the RIPE Policy Development Process.
>>>
>>>   From comments at RIPE 85, we understand that some people do not think
>>> this should be a policy matter. However, as we explained at that
>>> meeting, the RIPE NCC cannot limit the transfer rights of paying members
>>> without either a solid legal basis or a clear mandate from the RIPE
>>> community.
>>>
>>> It is in this context that we must note that the lock will not prevent
>>> resources from being transferred in cases of merger or acquisition. It
>>> will also not prevent transfers in cases where a bankrupt company goes
>>> into liquidation.
>>>
>>> Finally, in my last email, I said that requests from Ukraine would
>>> receive the ?highest levels of due diligence?, and I want to explain
>>> what this means. In recent years, we have developed a framework that
>>> describes what information our staff will ask for when handling
>>> requests. By applying the strongest approach within this framework, we
>>> will be going beyond our standard requirements and asking to verify
>>> additional documents. With the passing of this resolution, transfers
>>> will follow the process outlined here and will not be escalated to the
>>> Managing Director for approval.
>>>
>>> We hope that our Ukrainian members will understand that this is part of
>>> our efforts to protect their resources.
>>>
>>> As mentioned above, we will share more specific information on the
>>> registry lock before the end of the year ? including how it can be
>>> activated and by whom, and what it does and does not restrict.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Hans Petter Holen
>>> Managing Director
>>> RIPE NCC
>>>
>>> [1] Measures to Protect Ukrainian Networks:
>>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/2022-November/003668.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of ncc-services-wg Digest, Vol 118, Issue 20
>> ************************************************
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> 
> —
> Serg Galat
> 
> 
> 
>