From mir at ripe.net Tue Jul 1 15:27:40 2014 From: mir at ripe.net (Mirjam Kuehne) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 15:27:40 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] New on RIPE Labs: RIPE NCC Training Survey Results Message-ID: <53B2B74C.30707@ripe.net> Dear colleagues, At the beginning of each year and after each course we send a survey to the RIPE NCC members who participated in our training courses. We published a summary of the results on RIPE Labs: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/sandra_bras/ripe-ncc-training-survey-results Kind regards, Mirjam Kuehne RIPE NCC From romeo.zwart at ripe.net Mon Jul 7 13:06:06 2014 From: romeo.zwart at ripe.net (Romeo Zwart) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 13:06:06 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Closure of Test Traffic Measurements Service and Changes to the DNS Monitoring Service In-Reply-To: <53B3E031.3080502@ripe.net> References: <53B2D429.9030109@ripe.net> <84D9982D-EF0C-479D-8067-B7B50201AACD@ripe.net> <53B3E031.3080502@ripe.net> Message-ID: <53BA7F1E.2080508@ripe.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear colleagues, As of 1 July 2014, the old DNS Monitoring Service (DNSMON), based on the Test Traffic Measurements Service (TTM), has stopped receiving updates to its data. The new DNSMON interface is available at: https://atlas.ripe.net/dnsmon All historic DNSMON visualisations will remain available at: http://dnsmon-old.ripe.net We will keep these visualisations of the historic data available until at least the end of 2014. Existing URLs that point to specific periods or zones in the old DNSMON (for example http://dnsmon.ripe.net/dns-servmon/server/) will be redirected and will continue to work for as long as the old DNSMON visualisation servers are maintained. As discussed at the RIPE 68 DNS Working Group session in Warsaw, the RIPE NCC will provide some statistics on usage of the old visualisations at RIPE 69 in London. The DNS Working Group will be consulted regarding the further maintenance or possible decommissioning of these visualisations. Background The RIPE NCC announced a new version of DNSMON in March 2014 and informed the community that the old DNSMON would be phased out. The old DNSMON was dependent upon measurements run as part of TTM, which was in the last phase of its existence. TTM has been decommissioned, as announced previously, on 1 July 2014. In line with the closure of TTM, data collection in the old DNSMON has also been terminated from that same date. These changes are in line with our previous communications, notably the RIPE Labs article "Timeline for Phasing Out the Old TTM-Based DNSMON": https://labs.ripe.net/Members/romeo_zwart/copy_of_proposed-time-lines-for-phasing-out-the-old-ttm-based-dnsmon Romeo Zwart RIPE NCC -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlO6fx4ACgkQGRL9suBV+eos8ACfUMImGvgAV9rJ1bxzLbt4hLmv HewAni2DYCGSLAWOAhYREtCsprGj8jKR =gI+O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kurtis at kurtis.pp.se Tue Jul 22 18:28:28 2014 From: kurtis at kurtis.pp.se (Lindqvist Kurt Erik) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 18:28:28 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Planning for RIPE69 Message-ID: <0606A08B-CAB1-4B40-9329-0C9D394C6EC7@kurtis.pp.se> Dear WG Members, me and Bijal are trying to do some time planning for RIPE69. If you know/think/plan/dream of submitting a policy proposal, or otherwise would like to have time on the agenda, could you please let us know by emailing ncc-services-wg-chairs at ripe.net ? This will help us to not run (so much) into the AGM as we usually do... Kurtis & Bijal NCC Services chairs -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 203 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 15:54:48 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:54:48 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers Message-ID: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> Hello All, Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why? I think RIPE NCC works under Dutch law, so if The Netherlands don't accept Crimea annexion - RIPE NCC should not accept these papers. In other case, RIPE NCC very probably violates Dutch law. Am I right? From axel.pawlik at ripe.net Mon Jul 28 17:25:30 2014 From: axel.pawlik at ripe.net (Axel Pawlik) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 17:25:30 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote: > Hello All, > > Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) > issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why? Max, all, the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation provided by our members. This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national authority the member chooses. cheers, Axel From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 19:57:12 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:57:12 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> Message-ID: <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote: > On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) >> issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why? > > Max, all, > > the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership > organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number > resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation > provided by our members. > > This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that > the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have > national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, > so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national > authority the member chooses. > > cheers, Axel > > From gert at space.net Mon Jul 28 20:04:51 2014 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:04:51 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> Hi, On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote: > So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, > i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that question. Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC serves it's *members*, not any government in particular. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nick at netability.ie Mon Jul 28 20:21:37 2014 From: nick at netability.ie (Nick Hilliard) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 19:21:37 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote: > So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, > i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory. Nick From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 20:26:06 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:26:06 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> Message-ID: <53D695BE.1020006@ukraine.su> On 28.07.14 21:21, Nick Hilliard wrote: > On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote: >> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >> i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to > decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory. So I can use "legal" paper from any goverment to proof the existance of company for example, and hostmasters should believe me? If not - why? From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 20:26:20 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:26:20 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> Message-ID: <53D695CC.9080309@ukraine.su> Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote: >> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >> i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > Max, what are you trying to achieve? There is no good answer to that > question. > > Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided > to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), > in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly > legit, but has happened in the past). This is not something the RIPE NCC > can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC > serves it's *members*, not any government in particular. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > From lists-ripe at c4inet.net Mon Jul 28 20:30:54 2014 From: lists-ripe at c4inet.net (Sascha Luck) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 19:30:54 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <20140728183054.GA2222@cilantro.c4inet.net> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote: >So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? Not necessarily, I see it more of akin to a situation where a member is registered in country A but requests resources in Country B. Both .ua and .ru are in the RIPE Service Region, after all. If there is a territorial dispute between countries in different service regions, it might be more "interesting". rgds, Sascha Luck From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 20:40:05 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:40:05 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <20140728183054.GA2222@cilantro.c4inet.net> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <20140728183054.GA2222@cilantro.c4inet.net> Message-ID: <53D69905.7050206@ukraine.su> No, that's not discussion about regions and politics. That's a discussion just about legal status of some papers. On 28.07.14 21:30, Sascha Luck wrote: > On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote: >> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >> i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > Not necessarily, I see it more of akin to a situation where a member is > registered in country A but requests resources in Country B. Both .ua > and .ru are in the RIPE Service Region, after all. If there is a > territorial dispute between countries in different service > regions, it might be more "interesting". > > rgds, > Sascha Luck > > > > From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 20:40:16 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:40:16 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> Message-ID: <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> On 28.07.14 21:21, Nick Hilliard wrote: > On 28/07/2014 18:57, Max Tulyev wrote: >> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >> i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > Max, the ripe ncc's purpose as RIR is to register ip addresses, not to > decide who is the legitimate government in any particular territory. To be short, I say any *paper* issued by Russian goverment in Crimea, recognized to all the world (except RIPE NCC?) as illegal. From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 20:52:39 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:52:39 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D69BF7.80508@ukraine.su> Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions? From nick at netability.ie Mon Jul 28 21:15:42 2014 From: nick at netability.ie (Nick Hilliard) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:15:42 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D69BF7.80508@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> <53D69BF7.80508@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D6A15E.4010503@netability.ie> On 28/07/2014 19:52, Max Tulyev wrote: > Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that > entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions? The EU declared a round of sanctions a couple of days ago, which are listed here: > http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=OJ:JOL_2014_221_R_0001&from=EN I can't see any RIPE NCC members on that list. Perhaps there are some PI holders - someone else can check that out. Nick From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 21:31:10 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:31:10 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D6A15E.4010503@netability.ie> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> <53D69BF7.80508@ukraine.su> <53D6A15E.4010503@netability.ie> Message-ID: <53D6A4FE.9080506@ukraine.su> Is it legal in EU in general to enter any contractual relations with Crimean companies found in Russian law? I can quckly google articles about the ban of bank transactions at least, and ban of goods exchange. But I'm not a lawyer so I can't decide is that ban covers services or only physic goods? On 28.07.14 22:15, Nick Hilliard wrote: > On 28/07/2014 19:52, Max Tulyev wrote: >> Just understood in case of LIR - RIPE NCC *signs the contract* with that >> entity. Is it legal at all? Is it already a subject of sanctions? > > The EU declared a round of sanctions a couple of days ago, which are listed > here: > >> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=OJ:JOL_2014_221_R_0001&from=EN > > I can't see any RIPE NCC members on that list. Perhaps there are some PI > holders - someone else can check that out. > > Nick > > > From sander at steffann.nl Mon Jul 28 22:58:18 2014 From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:58:18 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D69929.2000201@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D69929.2000201@ukraine.su> Message-ID: Hi Max, I understand your frustration, but this is not the place to fight this fight. The RIPE NCC has both Russian and Ukrainian members. A member can be an existing entity under either Russian or Ukrainian law. The location of the entity doesn't matter in this case. A company can have its office in Crimea, independent of whether it is registered as a Russian or a Ukrainian company and independent of which country Crimea belongs to. The RIPE NCC can only deal with if an entity exists. Compare it to this: if I would go and live in Belgium I can be a member as a Dutch personal entity while having a Belgian address. But this is getting severely off-topic for this mailing list, so let's stop this discussion here and focus on address policy again :) Cheers, Sander From president at ukraine.su Mon Jul 28 23:11:16 2014 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 00:11:16 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D69929.2000201@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D6BC74.8020702@ukraine.su> Hi Sander, the problem is Russian authority can NOT issue a company papers for company based in Crimea, if Crimea is not a part of Russia. It is clear? Dutch goverment (and dutch law) is not recognized Crimea as a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC accepts that kind of papers as legal? On 28.07.14 23:58, Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi Max, > > I understand your frustration, but this is not the place to fight this fight. The RIPE NCC has both Russian and Ukrainian members. A member can be an existing entity under either Russian or Ukrainian law. The location of the entity doesn't matter in this case. A company can have its office in Crimea, independent of whether it is registered as a Russian or a Ukrainian company and independent of which country Crimea belongs to. The RIPE NCC can only deal with if an entity exists. > > Compare it to this: if I would go and live in Belgium I can be a member as a Dutch personal entity while having a Belgian address. > > But this is getting severely off-topic for this mailing list, so let's stop this discussion here and focus on address policy again :) > > Cheers, > Sander > From nick at netability.ie Mon Jul 28 23:39:32 2014 From: nick at netability.ie (Nick Hilliard) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:39:32 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D6A4FE.9080506@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <53D694B1.7060607@netability.ie> <53D69910.8030106@ukraine.su> <53D69BF7.80508@ukraine.su> <53D6A15E.4010503@netability.ie> <53D6A4FE.9080506@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D6C314.3020100@netability.ie> On 28/07/2014 20:31, Max Tulyev wrote: > Is it legal in EU in general to enter any contractual relations with > Crimean companies found in Russian law? from what I understand, it is generally ok in the EU with the exceptions listed in that EC directive - although from a practical point of view, it's very difficult getting anything in or out of the peninsula. Nick From marty at akamai.com Mon Jul 28 20:09:05 2014 From: marty at akamai.com (Hannigan, Martin) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:09:05 -0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <19127CA5-4901-41EF-B5CE-08913C160E6B@akamai.com> RIPE said they are neutral. I interpret that to mean that if a member chooses one over the other, that is up to them. There are a variety of reasons why one might choose one over the other, including no other choice but to do so. That shouldn't prevent someone from getting the resources they need. Best, -M< On Jul 28, 2014, at 1:57 PM, Max Tulyev wrote: > So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, > i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > On 28.07.14 18:25, Axel Pawlik wrote: >> On 28/07/2014 15:54, Max Tulyev wrote: >>> Hello All, >>> >>> Do RIPE NCC accept legal papers (i.e. company registration papers) >>> issued by Russian occupation authorities in Crimea? If yes - why? >> >> Max, all, >> >> the foremost concern of the RIPE NCC as a neutral membership >> organisation is to ensure accurate registration of Internet number >> resources. To do this, we rely on the information and documentation >> provided by our members. >> >> This documentation must come from a national authority and prove that >> the member exists as a legal entity. Russia and Ukraine both have >> national authorities that can confirm the existence of legal entities, >> so the RIPE NCC will accept documentation from whichever national >> authority the member chooses. >> >> cheers, Axel >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 842 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From michiel at klaver.it Tue Jul 29 10:43:01 2014 From: michiel at klaver.it (Michiel Klaver) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 10:43:01 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D6BC74.8020702@ukraine.su> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D69929.2000201@ukraine.su> <53D6BC74.8020702@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <53D75E95.9000400@klaver.it> Hi Max, Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC legal desk? http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/contact From michiel at klaver.it Tue Jul 29 11:03:25 2014 From: michiel at klaver.it (Michiel Klaver) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 11:03:25 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D760FA.3010505@netassist.ua> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D69929.2000201@ukraine.su> <53D6BC74.8020702@ukraine.su> <53D75E95.9000400@klaver.it> <53D760FA.3010505@netassist.ua> Message-ID: <53D7635D.2090901@klaver.it> it concerns everyone, but the question asked can only be answered by RIPE NCC legal desk. When they answer and it is not satisfying, you should contact your ambassy and take it to the political level. We as LIR members cannot change politics. ksyu at netassist.ua wrote at 29-07-2014 10:53: > Because it concern to everyone. > Today you accept russian aggression. Tomorrow will die more than 298 YOUR > people from their arms. > > 29.07.2014 11:43, Michiel Klaver ?????: >> Hi Max, >> >> Please tell us why you choose to spam thousands of subscribers of public >> mailinglists, while your question should have been addressed directly to NCC >> legal desk? >> >> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/contact >> > > From athina.fragkouli at ripe.net Tue Jul 29 12:02:04 2014 From: athina.fragkouli at ripe.net (Athina Fragkouli) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:02:04 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers - Clarifying the RIPE NCC Legal Position Message-ID: <53D7711C.5060904@ripe.net> Dear all, The RIPE NCC has the right to be contractually engaged with and to provide services to any legal entity, unless there are restrictions by law. Currently, Dutch law does not restrict our contractual engagement with, or provision of our services to, legal entities in Crimea. Dutch law does not restrict the RIPE NCC from using any means it finds appropriate as proof that a legal entity exists. Documents issued by national authorities are considered to be sufficient proof. The RIPE NCC can neither recognise nor deny one state?s authority over a region. Given the situation in Crimea, the RIPE NCC is striving to facilitate the provision of its services to network operators in this area and does not wish to deny services for political reasons. Kind regards, Athina Fragkouli Legal Counsel RIPE NCC From kurtis at kurtis.pp.se Tue Jul 29 12:25:24 2014 From: kurtis at kurtis.pp.se (Lindqvist Kurt Erik) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:25:24 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Discussion on list Message-ID: <9EE6E538-C071-4BA7-A18B-AB59F02A7FA1@kurtis.pp.se> All, this is just a friendly reminder that this list is for discussion regarding the services the RIPE NCC provides. The discussion regarding under what conditions these services are provided are on topic, general discussions regarding world politics isn't. So please keep your discussions on topic. Best regards Kurtis & Bijal Chairs of RIPE NCC Services WG. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 203 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From kurtis at kurtis.pp.se Tue Jul 29 12:28:00 2014 From: kurtis at kurtis.pp.se (Lindqvist Kurt Erik) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:28:00 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Minutes from RIPE68 Message-ID: The minutes from RIPE68 are now published at https://www.ripe.net/ripe/groups/wg/services/minutes/ripe-68-ripe-ncc-services-working-group-minutes Best regards, Lindqvist Kurt Erik kurtis at kurtis.pp.se -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 203 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Tue Jul 29 12:30:34 2014 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:30:34 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers - Clarifying the RIPE NCC Legal Position In-Reply-To: <53D7711C.5060904@ripe.net> References: <53D7711C.5060904@ripe.net> Message-ID: <20140729103034.GA10495@nic.fr> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 12:02:04PM +0200, Athina Fragkouli wrote a message of 21 lines which said: > Documents issued by national authorities are considered to be > sufficient proof. You did not reply to one of the questions raised in the thread: can a future member present papers from a national authority of another country? I start a LIR in France, can I present papers from the german authorities (should Germany issue them)? From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Tue Jul 29 14:44:46 2014 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:44:46 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Crimea papers - Clarifying the RIPE NCC Legal Position In-Reply-To: References: <53D7711C.5060904@ripe.net> <20140729103034.GA10495@nic.fr> Message-ID: <20140729124446.GA27855@nic.fr> On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 12:35:43PM +0000, Milton L Mueller wrote a message of 30 lines which said: > How would you get these "papers" from the German authorities if you > started the LIR in France? It was of course an hypothetical case. The real issue, in that thread, was papers from Russian authorities when starting a LIR in Ukraine but I hoped to have better responses by shifting to a less loaded case. From mueller at syr.edu Tue Jul 29 14:35:43 2014 From: mueller at syr.edu (Milton L Mueller) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 12:35:43 +0000 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers - Clarifying the RIPE NCC Legal Position In-Reply-To: <20140729103034.GA10495@nic.fr> References: <53D7711C.5060904@ripe.net> <20140729103034.GA10495@nic.fr> Message-ID: How would you get these "papers" from the German authorities if you started the LIR in France? If you are a multinational corp., wouldn't your local holdings in France have some kind of FR legal identity associated with them? While steering clear of the Crimea issue, the question of legal identity is relevant to several number policy issues; e.g., in ARIN region we are currently considering this: https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2014_1.html -----Original Message----- From: address-policy-wg-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:address-policy-wg-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 6:31 AM To: Athina Fragkouli Cc: ncc-services-wg at ripe.net; address-policy-wg at ripe.net Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers - Clarifying the RIPE NCC Legal Position On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 12:02:04PM +0200, Athina Fragkouli wrote a message of 21 lines which said: > Documents issued by national authorities are considered to be > sufficient proof. You did not reply to one of the questions raised in the thread: can a future member present papers from a national authority of another country? I start a LIR in France, can I present papers from the german authorities (should Germany issue them)? From info at leadertelecom.ru Tue Jul 29 15:50:57 2014 From: info at leadertelecom.ru (LeaderTelecom Ltd.) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 17:50:57 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [Ticket#2014072801005573] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53D695CC.9080309@ukraine.su> References: <53D695CC.9080309@ukraine.su> <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> Message-ID: <1406641856.12946.0647500682.537897.2@otrs.hostingconsult.ru> Max, ? I unterstund that you are not very happy what happend last time. This is very bad situation for all people. We are not politics. Our community help people work. Axel suggested very smart solution - any paper from any goverment. I support this position. This is neutral decussion, which allow people work in Internet. ? -- Aleksei 28.07.2014 22:26 - Max Tulyev ???????(?): Hi Gert, for my knowlege, there was NO democratic decision, at least becuse of all international observers (excepr Russian, of course) said the vote itself was totally fake, but I'm not about it now. NO GOVERMENT IN THE WORLD, including Dutch one, accepted Crimea is a part of Russia. So why RIPE NCC does? If papers issued by Russian goverment in Crimea is acceptable because it is good for some members, can RIPE NCC accept same papers issued in Crimea say Principality of Sealand goverment as well? And the main question: Has RIPE NCC legal rights to accept that kind of documents at all? What RIPE NCC lawyers say? On 28.07.14 21:04, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 08:57:12PM +0300, Max Tulyev wrote: >> So RIPE NCC accepts Russian authorities have rights in Crimea region, >> i.e. accepts Crimea is a part of Russia? > > Max, what are you trying to achieve???There is no good answer to that > question.?? > > Depending which media outlet you decide to believe, crimean people decided > to be part of Russia all on their own (which sounds quite legit to me), > in a democratic decision - or it was an annection by Russia (not overly > legit, but has happened in the past).??This is not something the RIPE NCC > can solve, and I think Axel's answer was as salomonic as possible: the NCC > serves it's *members*, not any government in particular. > > Gert Doering >???????? -- NetMaster > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sander at steffann.nl Thu Jul 31 13:38:34 2014 From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:38:34 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: <53DA22CE.20506@netassist.ua> References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> <20140729073316.GJ51793@Space.Net> <53D75403.3080902@netassist.ua> <20140729092156.GM51793@Space.Net> <29BD1EF7-5F1A-47BE-9960-2F36DD21C01A@rfc1035.com> <7C28157D-633E-45BC-8855-4B3864CC436A@bondis.org> <53DA22CE.20506@netassist.ua> Message-ID: Hi, First, move this discussion to NCC Services and Members-discuss... > lets see this article > > http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.226.01.0002.01.ENG I think these are the most relevant parts. First the definitions: > ?brokering services? means: > (i) the negotiation or arrangement of transactions for the purchase, sale or supply of goods and technology or of financial and technical services, including from a third country to any other third country; or > (ii) the selling or buying of goods and technology or of financial and technical services, including where they are located in third countries for their transfer to another third country. > ?technical assistance? means any technical support related to repairs, development, manufacture, assembly, testing, maintenance, or any other technical service, and may take forms such as instruction, advice, training, transmission of working knowledge or skills or consulting services; technical assistance includes verbal forms of assistance.?. Then under article 2c: > 2. Annex III shall include key equipment and technology related to the creation, acquisition or development of infrastructure in the following sectors: > [...] > (b) telecommunications; > [...] and > 3. It shall be prohibited to: > (a) provide, directly or indirectly, technical assistance or brokering services related to the key equipment and technology listed in Annex III, or related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance and use of items listed in Annex III to any natural or legal person, entity or body in Crimea or Sevastopol or for use in Crimea or Sevastopol; and > (b) provide, directly or indirectly, financing or financial asssistance related to the key equipment and technology listed in Annex III to any natural or legal person, entity or body in Crimea or Sevastopol or for use in Crimea or Sevastopol. As a networking person 'related to the provision [...] and use of items listed' does seem to include allocating number resources. I think we need some legal advice on this issue again... Cheers, Sander From sander at steffann.nl Thu Jul 31 14:38:50 2014 From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:38:50 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] [members-discuss] [address-policy-wg] Crimea papers In-Reply-To: References: <53D65628.6010001@ukraine.su> <53D66B6A.3060002@ripe.net> <53D68EF8.2060103@ukraine.su> <20140728180451.GC51793@Space.Net> <20140729073316.GJ51793@Space.Net> <53D75403.3080902@netassist.ua> <20140729092156.GM51793@Space.Net> <29BD1EF7-5F1A-47BE-9960-2F36DD21C01A@rfc1035.com> <7C28157D-633E-45BC-8855-4B3864CC436A@bondis.org> <53DA22CE.20506@netassist.ua> Message-ID: <2981AC77-7EB0-4C9F-8B16-F1644EBB9E5B@steffann.nl> Hi, I just got a question about how I meant this sentence: > As a networking person 'related to the provision [...] and use of items listed' does seem to include allocating number resources. Just so that people don't misunderstand me: what I meant here is that the terminology used in this legal document has some specific meaning in the networking world. The meaning in a legal sense is probably completely different from what I as a networking engineer would read. Which is why I think we need to let a legal specialist comment on this. IANAL and my opinion doesn't mean anything here :) Sorry for the confusion! Cheers, Sander