[ncc-services-wg] NCC Services draft minutes from RIPE 61

Hi Kurtis and Bijal,

Please find attached the draft minutes from RIPE 61.

Can you please distribute to the WG for comment? Once we've received 
your approval, we will publish the draft minutes to the website.

Many thanks,

Amanda

--------------------------

Minutes from RIPE 61
RIPE Meeting: 61
Working Group: RIPE NCC Services
Status: Draft
Revision Number: 1

* Content to the Chair of the working group.
* Format to webmaster at ripe.net.

RIPE 61 RIPE NCC Services Working Group
Rome, 17 November 2010, 16:00 – 17:30
Co-Chairs: Kurtis Lindqvist, Bijal Sanghani (not present)

A: Administrative Matters

Kurtis Lindquist started the session at 16:00 local time. He welcomed 
the attendees, announced that the minutes from RIPE 60 were approved, 
and introduced the RIPE NCC senior management team.

B. RIPE NCC Update - RIPE NCC Senior Management Team

RIPE NCC’s Axel Pawlik, Daniel Karrenberg, Paul Rendek, Jochem de Ruig 
and Andrei Robachevsky gave updates on the RIPE NCC’s current activities.

The presentations are available at:
http://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/331-Update_RIPE_NCC_R61.pdf

Brian Nisbet, Anti-Abuse Working Group chair, asked the RIPE NCC to come 
up with a single plan to deal with all of the proposals being put forth 
with regards to the registry (anti-abuse and the membership, proactive 
checks on information, relationship towards sponsoring LIRs). He asked 
when the RIPE NCC might be able to produce such a plan.

Daniel Karrenberg answered that the RIPE NCC are doing quite a lot 
already, including developing some ideas about data accuracy and 
maintenance in the database. He added that they haven’t done much with 
reputation issues yet, but that Training Services have surveyed 
attendees at LIR training courses and we were currently studying the 
results.

Daniel said that the RIPE NCC would work quickly on such a plan if they 
got clear direction from the community. He suspected that there might be 
some conflict of interest in what the anti-abuse working group wanted 
and other members of the community and that there needed to be 
consensus. He added that RIPE NCC was committed to working with the 
community on any such plan.

Brian Nisbet added that the immediacy for the request was that 2010-09 
and 10 were in discussion phase in the Anti-Abuse Working Group (and 
Database WG) and he doesn’t want a lot of work to go into it 
unnecessarily. What they want to achieve is giving people what they want 
in the best way that the database and registry can provide. Brian said 
that he spoke to the proposers and they are willing to hold back 
discussions until the RIPE NCC comes up with an answer, but dates or an 
arrangement will have to be put in place some point in the near future.

Daniel agreed and said the best strategy is to talk to each other about 
it to make sure everyone’s going in the same direction.

Shane Kerr from Internet Systems Consortium (ISC) praised the work going 
into governance and documenting processes. He asked Jochem de Ruig if 
the documentation process had any implications on the Policy Development 
Process.
Jochem said it was a good point and that’s why the RIPE NCC is going to 
carefully bring such documents forward to the community, and when there 
is a conflict, it needs to be discussed. He added that perhaps some 
pieces of a document would have to become a policy document, rather than 
a procedural document.

Shane asked if these documents would be published through the RIPE NCC 
Services Working Group.

Jochem replied that the documents would be published through the RIPE 
NCC Services Group and any other relevant Working Groups.

C. RIPE NCC Processes and IPv4 Address Space End Game – Andrea Cima

Andrea Cima from the RIPE NCC gave an update on the RIPE NCC Processes 
and IPv4 Address Space End-Game

The presentation is available at:
http://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/332-andrea_PPt_Nov_2010-3.pdf

James Blessing from Limelight Networks asked if the reason to have to 
agents checking each request was to speed the process up.

Andrea said that was one part of it, and that it’s also for improved 
consistency when they’re down to the last few resources.

James asked if there would be a delay in dealing with requests while 
people get used to having two people for every request.

Andrea replied that he didn’t foresee any big delays because having two 
people evaluating requests might actually speed it up.

Alain Bidron from France Telecom asked about seeing firmer visibility on 
the depletion of the RIPE NCC’s IPv4 pool.

Andrea said that maximizing transparency was being discussed and he 
could not say if there would be a IPv4 depletion counter posted on the 
RIPE NCC website in the future.

Niall O’Reilly from University College Dublin asked when the RIPE NCC 
would be in a position to say something about the introduction of 
non-allocation related registration services, particularly for the ERX 
community and for transfers rather than allocations.

Andrea asked if he was asking about when the RIPE NCC runs out of IPv4.

Niall said that there were two aspects of it. The first aspect is when 
IPv4 runs out and he expects a need to track transfers. The second 
aspect is the formalisation of the relationship with legacy resource 
holders.

Andrea replied that in some cases, the ERX space holders are already 
members of the RIPE NCC and that they’ve moved their resources under the 
LIR umbrella. Andrea said that Rob could better answer the rest of the 
question.

Rob Blokzijl, RIPE Chair, said that work was going on to define the 
registry of Internet resources currently in the RIPE NCC service region. 
He added that this was a registry of resources, not a list of resource 
holders. He emphasized that in one year, it will be difficult to explain 
to ‘new kids on the block’ the difference between a resource and a 
historical resource (ERX), which the RIPE NCC has administrative 
responsibility for. He added that in many cases, the RIPE NCC doesn’t 
have a formal relationship with ERX holders, but that was a problem we 
needed to solve. Rob then proposed working on a unified registration 
policy. In short, Rob and the RIPE NCC are working on it and as soon as 
something is on paper, it will go out to the community.

Daniel Karrenberg pointed out that the framework for this was already 
presented at RIPE 60.

D. Update on the 2007-1 Project – Arne Kiessling

Arne Kiessling from the RIPE NCC gave an update on 2007-01. The 
presentation is available here:
http://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/333-RIPE_61_Arne_Kiesslingv2.pdf

There were no questions.

E. Resource Certification – Alex Band

Alex Band from the RIPE NCC gave an update on Resource Certification. 
The presentation is available here:
http://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/233-Certification-update-RIPE61.key

James Blessing from Limelight Networks asked Alex to also keep a simple 
version for 2 a.m. emergencies and Alex agreed to it.

F. LIR Closure and Deregistration Procedure – Athina Fragkouli

Athina Fragkouli from the RIPE NCC gave an update on the Local Internet 
Registry (LIR) Closure and Deregistration Procedure document. The 
presentation is available here:

http://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/234-Closure_of_LIR_and_deregistration_of_resources.pdf

Sander Steffann asked how it could be the contributor’s responsibility 
to de-register if they’ve gone bankrupt. He also asked Athina to clarify 
the usage of ‘responsibility.’

Athina said that the contributors manage resources, so if something 
happens the contributor, the procedure dictates that the NCC will take 
over.

Rudiger Volk from Deutsche Telecom gave thanks for the difficult work 
that went into the document, a document that presented the big picture. 
He then asked about different meanings of failing for bankruptcy in 
different jurisdictions. He said that in Germany, legal system 
bankruptcy was not the right time for returning resources as they would 
be getting legal protection and could continue operations, so that was 
the point still to be ironed out.

Athina agreed with Rudiger.

Alain Bidron from France Telecom asked about having to comply with these 
rules within the RIPE NCC service region.

Athina said that RIPE NCC is governed by Dutch law and must comply with 
Dutch court orders only.

Lu Heng from Outside Heaven asked if the RIPE NCC has to validate legal 
orders from Dutch court only.

Athina confirmed it that this was the case.

Wilfried Woeber from ACOnet/Vienna University asked about the definition 
of a court order delivered by a local infrastructure, as he saw a 
potential hardship for End User assignments: If the sponsoring LIR got 
into trouble, the assignment would be lost.

Athina said this needed further clarification but there was another 
document on contractual relationship changes between End User and a 
sponsoring LIR (the End User has to find another Sponsoring LIR).

Yakovenko Volodymyr from Google asked what happens if the LIR is 
unresponsive to emails due to technical difficulties.

Athina replied that there are several ways of contacting LIRs and this 
procedure is described in the document.

Yakovenko then asked if the Dutch law jurisdiction is universal and 
applied everywhere in the world (as it is the case with UK law).

Athina said that national authorities may have agreements between each 
other, but she could not specify the details.

As time for the session was running out , Kurt suggested that further 
discussion on the topic should be taken to the mailing list.

Z.A.O.B.

There were no AOBs.

Kurtis ended the session at 17:40 local time.