From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 1 11:34:38 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:34:38 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Have any of you recently tried to become a new LIR?! I am helping an organization become a LIR and they pointed out many items that I think the RIPE NCC needs to take account of. Here is what they are doing: 1) User goes to www.ripe.net 2) User clicks on 'membership' in left panel 3) User now goes to http://www.ripe.net/membership/ 4) User now clicks on 'become a member' 5) User now on http://www.ripe.net/membership/new-members/index.html 6) User now clicks on "Updated Procedure for Becoming a New RIPE NCC LIR [08 June 2004]" 7) User now on http://www.ripe.net/membership/new-members/new-form-20040608.html 8) User now clicks on "More information on the new LIR procedure can be found here." 9) User now redirected to https://lirportal.ripe.net/newmember/index.html 10) User clicks 'I agree' at bottom 11) User now starts online application at: https://lirportal.ripe.net/newmember/MemberApplication.html 12) User now supplies name and email and clicks next 13) User now is asked for lots of legal info and clicks next 14) user is now asked for lots of billing info and clicks next 15) User is now asked for registry data and clicks next 16) User is now asked for mailing list subscriptions and clicks next 17) User is asked to provide remarks and clicks next 18) User now can submit the form Now imagine a network admin is asked by his/her company to become a LIR. He/she has never worked with RIPE. They follow the process and get to step 13. They stop what they are doing and contact their bosses and lawyers about filling in the legal info. They accumulate the answers after a few phone calls and emails and now move inward to step 14. Now they call the accounting dept and get the necessary info to complete this screen. Hit next. Now they call the head of the IT dept and ask who should be added as a contact person. Hit next. Whoops. Now I need to know who from the IT dept should be getting local-ir and ncc-co emails. Call back IT dept head. Confused yet? RIPE-303 which is now obsolete, but was the last available 'Procedure for becoming a LIR', states in section 2 that one has to sign an official contract with RIPE: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/service-agreement.html (ripe-320). RIPE-320 is *not* obsolete, so I guess one does have to, but the new Lirportal procedure makes no reference to it at all (steps 1-18). Since ripe-303 is obsolete, a new user would normally not read it and therefore would not know about ripe-320. IMHO, the entire new LIR procedure has been made very cumbersome and non-intuitive and has not been reviewed for user friendliness. Previously, with ripe-230, one had all the info needed in one spot and could see very clearly what info and data from within the company is needed to become a LIR. Nowadays, it is a 3 day job just to figure out what the LIR portal will be asking along the way. I think that the RIPE NCC has to revise this entire procedure from the ground up. Regards, Hank Nussbacher From president at ukraine.su Wed Jun 1 12:06:02 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:06:02 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> Hello! I just got a new LIR for one of my employer, everything was quick and fine ;) Of course, every work need some experience. LIR is a status giving you an ability to assign IP addresses to users. It is like registrar in domain name system. So if you need to provide that kind of service - you need experienced people can do all technical work, isn't it? I think generally that is not a work of network admin at all. Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If you just need that, you don't need to become a LIR. It is like if you want to have mycoodlomain.ru, you don't really need to become a .ru registrar to register that domain by yourself. > Have any of you recently tried to become a new LIR?! I am helping an > organization become a LIR and they pointed out many items that I think the > RIPE NCC needs to take account of. Here is what they are doing: > > 1) User goes to www.ripe.net > > 2) User clicks on 'membership' in left panel > > 3) User now goes to http://www.ripe.net/membership/ > > 4) User now clicks on 'become a member' > > 5) User now on http://www.ripe.net/membership/new-members/index.html > > 6) User now clicks on "Updated Procedure for Becoming a New RIPE NCC LIR > [08 June 2004]" > > 7) User now on > http://www.ripe.net/membership/new-members/new-form-20040608.html > > 8) User now clicks on "More information on the new LIR procedure can be > found here." > > 9) User now redirected to https://lirportal.ripe.net/newmember/index.html > > 10) User clicks 'I agree' at bottom > > 11) User now starts online application at: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/newmember/MemberApplication.html > > 12) User now supplies name and email and clicks next > > 13) User now is asked for lots of legal info and clicks next > > 14) user is now asked for lots of billing info and clicks next > > 15) User is now asked for registry data and clicks next > > 16) User is now asked for mailing list subscriptions and clicks next > > 17) User is asked to provide remarks and clicks next > > 18) User now can submit the form > > Now imagine a network admin is asked by his/her company to become a > LIR. He/she has never worked with RIPE. They follow the process and get > to step 13. They stop what they are doing and contact their bosses and > lawyers about filling in the legal info. They accumulate the answers after > a few phone calls and emails and now move inward to step 14. Now they call > the accounting dept and get the necessary info to complete this > screen. Hit next. Now they call the head of the IT dept and ask who > should be added as a contact person. Hit next. Whoops. Now I need to > know who from the IT dept should be getting local-ir and ncc-co > emails. Call back IT dept head. > > Confused yet? RIPE-303 which is now obsolete, but was the last available > 'Procedure for becoming a LIR', states in section 2 that one has to sign an > official contract with RIPE: > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/service-agreement.html (ripe-320). RIPE-320 > is *not* obsolete, so I guess one does have to, but the new Lirportal > procedure makes no reference to it at all (steps 1-18). Since ripe-303 is > obsolete, a new user would normally not read it and therefore would not > know about ripe-320. > > IMHO, the entire new LIR procedure has been made very cumbersome and > non-intuitive and has not been reviewed for user friendliness. Previously, > with ripe-230, one had all the info needed in one spot and could see very > clearly what info and data from within the company is needed to become a > LIR. Nowadays, it is a 3 day job just to figure out what the LIR portal > will be asking along the way. > > I think that the RIPE NCC has to revise this entire procedure from the > ground up. > > Regards, > Hank Nussbacher -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From dr at cluenet.de Wed Jun 1 12:37:54 2005 From: dr at cluenet.de (Daniel Roesen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:37:54 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 02:06:02PM +0400, Max Tulyev wrote: > I just got a new LIR for one of my employer, everything was quick > and fine ;) You're missing Hank's point (which I find very valid, if the process is really like he describes - didn't look at it myself). > Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If you just need > that, you don't need to become a LIR. Unfortunately you do, for IPv6. > Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) Hm, Fido still exists? ;) Best regards, Daniel (former 2:243/20.6, later 2:2454/95.2) -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr at cluenet.de -- dr at IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 From president at ukraine.su Wed Jun 1 12:55:30 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:55:30 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> Message-ID: <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> Hi! > You're missing Hank's point (which I find very valid, if the process > is really like he describes - didn't look at it myself). Why your company become a LIR? > > Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If you just > > need that, you don't need to become a LIR. > Unfortunately you do, for IPv6. Why? > > Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) > Hm, Fido still exists? ;) And even grows up in some regions. And FIDO echoconferences is only reliable place to get answers without tons of spam and flamers ;) -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From dr at cluenet.de Wed Jun 1 12:59:10 2005 From: dr at cluenet.de (Daniel Roesen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:59:10 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 02:55:30PM +0400, Max Tulyev wrote: > > You're missing Hank's point (which I find very valid, if the process > > is really like he describes - didn't look at it myself). > > Why your company become a LIR? I don't understand the sense of your question (aside the fact that "my company" is no LIR anymore). Hank complains about the fact that you don't have an overview of information necessary to complete the application before clicking and answering thru the application web forms. And I can totally understand that. > > > Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If you just > > > need that, you don't need to become a LIR. > > Unfortunately you do, for IPv6. > > Why? Because there is no IPv6 PI yet. Regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr at cluenet.de -- dr at IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 1 13:11:14 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:11:14 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> References: <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601140538.00ae4110@efes.iucc.ac.il> At 02:55 PM 01-06-05 +0400, Max Tulyev wrote: >Hi! > > > You're missing Hank's point (which I find very valid, if the process > > is really like he describes - didn't look at it myself). > >Why your company become a LIR? In order to get resources directly from RIPE - whether it be ASNs, IPv4s or IPv6 blocks. The company knows what is involved, but when the company is a largish company (5K+), the administrative forms of billing, legal, contacts, etc are not as simple as a 10-30 man company would do it. Having all the information upfront is a prerequistite for applying. -Hank From president at ukraine.su Wed Jun 1 13:23:07 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:23:07 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> Message-ID: <200506011523.07818.president@ukraine.su> Hello! > > Why your company become a LIR? > I don't understand the sense of your question (aside the fact that "my > company" is no LIR anymore). Is it for providing registration services or for IPs? > > > > Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If you just > > > > need that, you don't need to become a LIR. > > > > > > Unfortunately you do, for IPv6. > > Why? > Because there is no IPv6 PI yet. But can I get the space from other LIR and announce it with my AS (which one I can get same way)? -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From dr at cluenet.de Wed Jun 1 13:32:47 2005 From: dr at cluenet.de (Daniel Roesen) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:32:47 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <200506011523.07818.president@ukraine.su> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> <200506011523.07818.president@ukraine.su> Message-ID: <20050601113247.GA17584@srv01.cluenet.de> On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 03:23:07PM +0400, Max Tulyev wrote: > > > > > Often LIR is misunderstanding with a block of IPs and AS. If > > > > > you just need that, you don't need to become a LIR. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately you do, for IPv6. > > > Why? > > Because there is no IPv6 PI yet. > > But can I get the space from other LIR and announce it with my AS You can get PA space from a LIR and announce yourself, but this will usually lead to bad routing and in case of the PA-providing LIR going down for whatever routings, partial connectivity loss. So it's not providing the same "quality" like PI. If you're interested in the matter, google for "IPv6 multihoming" and find a large amount of long threads discussing this problem space. :-) Regards, Daniel -- CLUE-RIPE -- Jabber: dr at cluenet.de -- dr at IRCnet -- PGP: 0xA85C8AA0 From president at ukraine.su Wed Jun 1 13:44:33 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:33 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601140538.00ae4110@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050601140538.00ae4110@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <200506011544.33491.president@ukraine.su> Hello! > >Why your company become a LIR? > In order to get resources directly from RIPE - whether it be ASNs, IPv4s or > IPv6 blocks. > The company knows what is involved, but when the company is a largish > company (5K+), the administrative forms of billing, legal, contacts, etc > are not as simple as a 10-30 man company would do it. Having all the > information upfront is a prerequistite for applying. So why not for that large company with a requirements in many ASNs and IPs do not hire the employee that will do that right way and will support LIR and make correct requests and changes in DB? If answer is like "no money" - why not outsource that process or even use other LIR's services? -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 1 13:54:38 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:54:38 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <200506011544.33491.president@ukraine.su> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601140538.00ae4110@efes.iucc.ac.il> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050601140538.00ae4110@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601145304.0559f478@efes.iucc.ac.il> At 03:44 PM 01-06-05 +0400, Max Tulyev wrote: > > The company knows what is involved, but when the company is a largish > > company (5K+), the administrative forms of billing, legal, contacts, etc > > are not as simple as a 10-30 man company would do it. Having all the > > information upfront is a prerequistite for applying. > >So why not for that large company with a requirements in many ASNs and IPs do >not hire the employee that will do that right way and will support LIR and >make correct requests and changes in DB? They are doing exactly that. But you are missing the entire point of the original email as others have pointed out to you. -Hank From president at ukraine.su Wed Jun 1 14:09:19 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:09:19 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <20050601113247.GA17584@srv01.cluenet.de> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011523.07818.president@ukraine.su> <20050601113247.GA17584@srv01.cluenet.de> Message-ID: <200506011609.19451.president@ukraine.su> Hello! > You can get PA space from a LIR and announce yourself, but this will > usually lead to bad routing and in case of the PA-providing LIR going > down for whatever routings, partial connectivity loss. So it's not > providing the same "quality" like PI. > If you're interested in the matter, google for "IPv6 multihoming" and > find a large amount of long threads discussing this problem space. :-) It may be if you are trying to announce the subnet when all net announced other way. But if LIR gives you an own /32 (like /19 for IPv4) that only you announce it into the Internet with your AS - how it can interact with other net an AS that are does not interact other ways that they are got from one LIR? In addition, I asked a question on LIR courses about what will be with assignments if LIR goes down, for example because of no payments. The answer was "all assignments will be exist". Also LIR can't change or delete objects does not protected by LIR's mntner, so LIR can't delete or change their assignments given to other companies. So I see no reasons to become a LIR if you need only IP/ASNs (even v6), but not registration services, as well as you don't need to become the registrar for registering your corporate domain name (or even few corporate domains). ;) -- WBR, Max Tulyev (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From axel.pawlik at ripe.net Wed Jun 1 15:49:09 2005 From: axel.pawlik at ripe.net (Axel Pawlik) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:49:09 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601153613.04080778@localhost> At 1/6/2005 11:34, you wrote: >Have any of you recently tried to become a new LIR?! I am helping an >organization become a LIR and they pointed out many items that I think the >RIPE NCC needs to take account of. Here is what they are doing: Hank, all, thanks again for valuable input, Hank. Indeed the process looks "involved" the way you list it, I agree. I'm not sure whether you are aware of the survey that we conducted recently among "new LIRs", to find out how they perceive the whole sign-up process. (Paul Rendek presented this during RIPE 50, the presentation is at... http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50-services-new-lir.pdf What you say is certainly reflects some sentiment we heard in the feedback from that survey. We are currently working to fix the issues that were pointed out, to make the process smoother from a user perspective; so you contribution was timely indeed... cheers, Axel From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 1 16:38:55 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:38:55 +0300 (IDT) Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050601153613.04080778@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <6.2.1.2.2.20050601153613.04080778@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Axel Pawlik wrote: Thanks for the response. I was actually quite happy with what I found, since it gave me another consulting gig :-) -Hank > What you say is certainly reflects some sentiment we heard > in the feedback from that survey. We are currently working > to fix the issues that were pointed out, to make the process > smoother from a user perspective; so you contribution was > timely indeed... > > cheers, Axel From marcoh at marcoh.net Wed Jun 1 18:10:59 2005 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (MarcoH) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:10:59 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> Message-ID: <20050601161059.GA27071@marcoh.net> On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 12:59:10PM +0200, Daniel Roesen wrote: > > Why your company become a LIR? > > I don't understand the sense of your question (aside the fact that "my > company" is no LIR anymore). > > Hank complains about the fact that you don't have an overview of > information necessary to complete the application before clicking > and answering thru the application web forms. And I can totally > understand that. So, somewhere around step 7, we might add a page showing the 'shoppinglist' to become an LIR: - company registration data - billing data - list of contacts - etc. Grtx, MarcoH From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 1 19:57:15 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:57:15 +0300 (IDT) Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR In-Reply-To: <20050601161059.GA27071@marcoh.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> <200506011406.02688.president@ukraine.su> <20050601103754.GA16992@srv01.cluenet.de> <200506011455.30641.president@ukraine.su> <20050601105910.GA17068@srv01.cluenet.de> <20050601161059.GA27071@marcoh.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, MarcoH wrote: That would definitely help. -Hank > So, somewhere around step 7, we might add a page showing the > 'shoppinglist' to become an LIR: > > - company registration data > - billing data > - list of contacts > - etc. > > Grtx, > > MarcoH > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. > From mm at elabnet.de Thu Jun 2 20:26:54 2005 From: mm at elabnet.de (Michael Markstaller) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:26:54 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Complaints about becoming a new LIR Message-ID: Now, just to leave my 2 cents.. I've recently applied and all in all I'd say the whole process is really a bit complex which might be caused by the fact becoming a LIR is complex, understanding assignment, allocation, PI, PA, ASN etc. But all in all I did manage to get through and the overall experience of becoming a LIR with RIPE I'd rate very good & professional. But Hanks points & a list of 'needed things' would definitely help.. Michael (former 2:2480/837 - just started googling for current Fido-progs as Frontdoor & Goldedit probably won't do it anymore) From shane at ripe.net Wed Jun 8 16:47:06 2005 From: shane at ripe.net (Shane Kerr) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:47:06 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Whois Database currently off-line Message-ID: <42A704EA.7020104@ripe.net> Dear Colleagues, The Whois Database is currently not answering queries, or answering them sporadically. We are aware of the outage, and are currently working on restoring service. Apologies for the inconvenience, Shane Kerr Software Engineering Manager RIPE NCC From shane at ripe.net Wed Jun 8 19:04:41 2005 From: shane at ripe.net (Shane Kerr) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:04:41 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [db-wg] Whois Database currently off-line In-Reply-To: <42A704EA.7020104@ripe.net> References: <42A704EA.7020104@ripe.net> Message-ID: <42A72529.2000506@ripe.net> Dear Colleagues, Shane Kerr wrote: >The Whois Database is currently not answering queries, or answering them >sporadically. > > Full service has been restored. The database was off-line from about 13:30 to 17:30 Amsterdam time (CEST). Certain queries were taking several seconds to execute, and after a few minutes the server was getting completely backlogged. We updated the SQL database schema by adding a new index, and this fixed the problem. We are not 100% certain why this problem happened now, but we will investigate. Again, apologies for this outage. -- Shane Kerr Software Engineering Manager RIPE NCC From bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk Mon Jun 13 11:06:33 2005 From: bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk (Bijal Sanghani) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:06:33 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Call for Input: 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050610150742.01bc8168@mailhost.ripe.net> Message-ID: <8F78A885-E84F-43A8-BD1D-C96CC7B06815@sohonet.co.uk> Dear Colleagues, We would like to remind you that the 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey is online at: http://www.ripe.net/membership/survey2005 RIPE NCC MEMBERSHIP SURVEY: WHY YOU SHOULD PARTICIPATE This survey, conducted by KPMG, plays an important part in the RIPE NCC's efforts in continuing to meet members' needs. The goal of the survey is to give all members the opportunity to voice their opinions and provide input on the RIPE NCC and the services it offers. KPMG have advised us that they have received 37 responses so far. They have noticed that members are also making very good use of the ability in Section 2 to not only identify possible new services but to also clearly weight their preferences for resource investment. The current number of responses is very low given the number of members we have. We hope that many of you will be able to complete the survey and send your responses to KPMG soon. The survey will be available until mid-June 2005. CONFIDENTIALITY KPMG are conducting the 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey independently from the RIPE NCC. All responses will go directly to KPMG and will remain anonymous to the RIPE NCC. FORMAT OF THE SURVEY The survey is divided into three sections. - Section 1: About RIPE NCC Services In this section, respondents are asked to rate a series of statements relating to the various services that the RIPE NCC currently offers. - Section 2: Planning for the Future This section is divided into two parts. Respondents are asked to: - rate where they feel the RIPE NCC should allocate its resources in the future. - specify where they consider increased investment by the RIPE NCC would benefit members. - Section 3: Other Suggestions In this section, respondents have the opportunity to make suggestions for services or activities that they feel the RIPE NCC should consider, or stop providing, in the future. COMPLETE THE SURVEY The 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey is available at: http://www.ripe.net/membership/survey2005 The survey will remain available online until mid-June 2005. We encourage you to participate in this survey, as your input is greatly valued. Thank you in advance for your contribution. Kind regards, Bijal Sanghani From bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk Mon Jun 20 17:13:07 2005 From: bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk (Bijal Sanghani) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 16:13:07 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Fwd: [local-ir@ripe.net]Deadline for input to RIPE NCC Membership Survey 2005 References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050620164646.01bf4278@mailhost.ripe.net> Message-ID: <77CF8C75-9F09-4D0D-A343-EE38D625D258@sohonet.co.uk> fyi - Bijal Sanghani Co-Chair RIPE NCC Services WG Begin forwarded message: > From: Axel Pawlik > Date: 20 June 2005 15:54:14 BDT > To: local-ir at ripe.net, ncc-co at ripe.net > Subject: [local-ir at ripe.net]Deadline for input to RIPE NCC > Membership Survey 2005 > > > [Apologies for duplicate e-mails] > > Dear Colleagues, > > The RIPE NCC needs your input. By filling in the 2005 RIPE NCC > Membership Survey, you can influence the future direction and > services of the RIPE NCC. > > The results of the survey, conducted independently by KPMG, will be > incorporated into the RIPE NCC's long-term strategy. I strongly > urge all members to complete this survey and make sure that your > opinion is heard. > > The 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey will be available online until > early July 2005. > > The survey is available at: > http://www.ripe.net/membership/survey2005 > > Kind regards, > > Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk Mon Jun 27 12:59:07 2005 From: bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk (Bijal Sanghani) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:59:07 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes Message-ID: Dear All, Please see draft minutes from the NCC Services Working Group at RIPE 50. Please send any questions, comments or clarifications to Kurtis, myself or this mailing list. regards, Bijal ---- RIPE NCC Services Working Group Agenda Date: Thursday, 5 May 2005 Time: 16:00 - 17:00 Room: Plenary Room A. Administrative Matters * Welcome * Select a Scribe * Distribute Participants List * Finalise Agenda * Approve Minutes: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/wg/ncc-services/r49- minutes.html B. Report from the RIPE NCC - Axel Pawlik http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50-serv- ncc-new.pdf Axel noted that the reporting on the RIPE NCC would not be repeated in the General Meeting, scheduled to take place at 17:00. Registration Services Training Engineering New Projects Coordination Communications Membership Relations External Relations There were no questions. C. New LIR Survey - Results and Feedback - Paul Rendek (RIPE NCC) http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50- services-new-lir.pdf There were no questions. D. A New Version of the Hostcount http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50-serv- hostcount.pdf RIPE NCC Timur requests feedback on the value of this service. Questions: Kurtis asks how many are using this whois data? Counts...yes, a few people using this data. Anyone has any comments about proposed changes? +/- 49 mins... Lars-Johan Liman (Netnod): Are you going to use this host query all over? Timur: Yes. Lars-Johan Liman - Netnod: Because I noticed some problems with some transfers. So it should be configured to provide one answer instead of many answers.... so this is about the zone transfer format. Timur: Thank you for this. We are going to review all the projects and maybe will modify the hostcount programme itself and maybe we should do a DNS as a backend which may be better. Peter: I want to respond on the remark made by the previous gentleman The host programme is showing its age and the sad fact is that the author has passed away a couple of years ago and the program itself has been orphaned. There are some problems in dealing with the new style referrals. It would be useful to have that located at a well- known place, one of which could be the RIPE NCC. And I would be willing to contribute. As before I didn't do the coding, but it would be useful to develop that not only for the host count, but for DNS debugging as well. Timur: Well, we promised to provide a DIY kit. We will come with a replacement on modified version of software. And your input would be much appreciated. Souissi Mohsen - AFNIC: I browsed through the site and randomly did some cctld's to find out about things. I was pleasantly surprised that there are detail on every cctld. But i am quite worried about the relevance of these figures. For example the zone count. if these figures are to be used somewhere maybe there is a column missing - the estimate of error. is there mathematical way to estimate that. And do a disclaimer for people using these figures? Timur: Well, there is a disclaimer there, Souissi Mohsen - AFNIC: Because the figures are, in some parts, very far from the reality Timur: We understand that, so that's why we are not claiming that it's something really precise. Souissi Mohsen - AFNIC: Thank you anyway. Rob Blokzijl: BTW the first hostcount counted 7200 hosts. But that was never published. Comment: I was one of the few who raised their hand when you asked whether people were using it or whether it is useful. I think its extremely useful because it is one of the few long term efforts to measure something of the internet in a consistent way. It is more of a trans measurement than absolutely numbers. I would like to see some sort of continuation of this and I think its important that potential users understand what it is . What it is that you measure, what the conditions are and yes, its difficult to give error estimates, but people should use it as one of the few reliable trend figures. You can see trends in many publications, but most are based on nothing and if you take any given moment in time, you have a rich choice of various trends, like the internet is not growing anymore or the internet is exploding but at least this measures something that is definied and is not a hostcount as the name suggests, but you are measuring someting in a consistent way for many years, so you can draw some conclustions and I think that is the value. Person from Vienna: I wholly support this project and I am very pleased to see that there is further work being done on this. i would just like to ask if, for the reverse dns counts may lirs volunteer to reform the divulged counts in the same way that some of us volunteerd to perfom forward counts for the country codes? Timnur: That's perfect. We would like to see a participation. Thanks a lot. Bruce Campbell: with what you said about the accuracy - if you see the graph on the screen there is a section that says zones blocked etc. that is the closest that you will get to seeing this is how inaccurate the figures are, because for every zone where we got a block, we have a completely unknown number of hosts that we couldn't count, which is why we started collecting the reverse count because its much easier to ennumerate through the reverse zones and not necessarily forward. the downside is that people generally don't populate the reverse zones. so if you have reverse zones, its putting them in dns is good. its yet another trend. its purely a trend thing with no relation to realiity. Timur: Thank you Peter Kock - denic (one of the starting points into hostzone and long time support and i appreciate the effort and would like to see it continue). I appreciate your new considerations of acceptable use and really, there is no acceptable use. the raw data is no longer shipped, which is probably one of the pre-conditions for the cctld registries to continue support for this project. This is really important and we should talk about that. Timur: Thank you. Out of time, so no open microphone. Y. Open Microphone Z. AOB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Mon Jun 27 14:51:59 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:51:59 +0300 (IDT) Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > D. A New Version of the Hostcount > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50-serv- > hostcount.pdf > RIPE NCC > > Timur requests feedback on the value of this service. > > Questions: > Kurtis asks how many are using this whois data? Counts...yes, a few > people using this data. > Anyone has any comments about proposed changes? As someone who was not at RIPE50 but who uses hostcount, I would like to add my comments and support. I find this service extremely useful. One real world use is as follows: the university network in Israel has IP addresses spanning a range of about 16 /16s. All domain names inside the universities should terminate with ac.il or at the worst org.il. But often students take a university Unix system that they have access to and start using it for non-academic purposes (left as an exercise for the reader to think of what constitutes non-academic :-)). Using grep on the raw data file I can easily spot those systems that are running questionable content based on their domain name (co.il for example). Sometimes, hackers change an IP address to some name that has certain character strings that are unique to the hacker realm. By running a series of greps on the raw data file I can find those systems that may have been compromised and contact the appropriate ISP in Israel. So please - make hostcount work again. Incidentally, it stopped working in Jan 2005. Regards, Hank From andrei at ripe.net Wed Jun 29 10:33:13 2005 From: andrei at ripe.net (Andrei Robachevsky) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:33:13 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C25CC9.3000509@ripe.net> Dear Hank, Hank Nussbacher wrote: >>D. A New Version of the Hostcount >>http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-50/presentations/ripe50-serv- >>hostcount.pdf >>RIPE NCC >> >>Timur requests feedback on the value of this service. >> >>Questions: >>Kurtis asks how many are using this whois data? Counts...yes, a few >>people using this data. >>Anyone has any comments about proposed changes? > > > As someone who was not at RIPE50 but who uses hostcount, I would like to > add my comments and support. I find this service extremely useful. One > real world use is as follows: the university network in Israel has IP > addresses spanning a range of about 16 /16s. All domain names inside the > universities should terminate with ac.il or at the worst org.il. But > often students take a university Unix system that they have access to and > start using it for non-academic purposes (left as an exercise for the > reader to think of what constitutes non-academic :-)). Using grep on the > raw data file I can easily spot those systems that are running > questionable content based on their domain name (co.il for example). > > Sometimes, hackers change an IP address to some name that has certain > character strings that are unique to the hacker realm. By running a > series of greps on the raw data file I can find those systems that may > have been compromised and contact the appropriate ISP in Israel. > > So please - make hostcount work again. Incidentally, it stopped working > in Jan 2005. > We are currently working on the problem you recently reported. My apologies that it takes longer than we expected. It is limited to publishing the raw data and the rest of the hostcount is functioning well. However, it seems that for you (and maybe some other people) the core value of the Hostcount is in the raw data, not so much in the statistics and a measurement of the "size of the Internet". This is different from the objectives of the projects as was presented at RIPE 50. In our view, while there are cases where raw data may be useful, the real value of the Hostcount for the community is in the statistics and trends that are produced from different data sources (e.g. forward DNS tree, reverse DNS, BGP tables). There are a few issues with publishing the raw data. One of them is that the implicit AUP under which data is collected does not necessarily match the AUP under which data is used. I believe some of the ccTLD would not like their data to be published and assuring them that this will not be the case may facilitate their participation in this project. Secondly, there are commercial products available on the market, the ISC domain survey is just one of those. Finally we wish to make all software publicly available so people may collect data themselves. In your case that may be a collaboration with the Israeli ccTLD administrator. Therefore in the Hostcount++ we proposed not to ship raw data at all. But if the consensus is that raw data is the real value of this project, then we need to make adjustments to the requirements. > Regards, > Hank Regards, Andrei Robachevsky RIPE NCC From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed Jun 29 17:04:39 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:04:39 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes In-Reply-To: <42C25CC9.3000509@ripe.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050629175016.057913f8@efes.iucc.ac.il> At 10:33 AM 29-06-05 +0200, Andrei Robachevsky wrote: >However, it seems that for you (and maybe some other people) the core >value of the Hostcount is in the raw data, not so much in the statistics >and a measurement of the "size of the Internet". This is different from >the objectives of the projects as was presented at RIPE 50. Perhaps it is time to survey all those who responded positively (as I did) to continued development on hostcount - as to the reasons they felt that way rather than assuming they were all referring to statistics. I gave almost all of my 100 points in the survey to hostcount development. >In our view, while there are cases where raw data may be useful, the >real value of the Hostcount for the community is in the statistics and >trends that are produced from different data sources (e.g. forward DNS >tree, reverse DNS, BGP tables). Do you base that view on some empirical data? Can you point me at the link? As said above, perhaps it is time to survey your membership before proceeding? >There are a few issues with publishing the raw data. One of them is that >the implicit AUP under which data is collected does not necessarily >match the AUP under which data is used. I believe some of the ccTLD >would not like their data to be published and assuring them that this >will not be the case may facilitate their participation in this project. I've read the AUP at: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/hostcount/aup.html and could not find the clause that states that what I do is wrong or evenly possibly wrong based on the AUP. The data is never published, reproduced or transmitted or used for advertising. What if I got specific permission from the il cctld admin allowing what I do? >Secondly, there are commercial products available on the market, the ISC >domain survey is just one of those. If we go down the path of commercial products, I think I can find a commercial product for almost every RIPE research related effort. >Finally we wish to make all software publicly available so people may >collect data themselves. In your case that may be a collaboration with >the Israeli ccTLD administrator. > >Therefore in the Hostcount++ we proposed not to ship raw data at all. I see no reason why a signed AUP can't continued to be used as before to allow access to the raw data files. >But if the consensus is that raw data is the real value of this project, >then we need to make adjustments to the requirements. I raise my hand and I hope others do as well. -Hank > > Regards, > > Hank > >Regards, > >Andrei Robachevsky >RIPE NCC > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. From bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk Thu Jun 30 14:19:40 2005 From: bijal.sanghani at sohonet.co.uk (Bijal Sanghani) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:19:40 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Fwd: Final Deadline - 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050630140727.03c64c70@mailhost.ripe.net> Message-ID: <85A7F354-0DCA-41E5-A889-56F1359CDD6B@sohonet.co.uk> Hi All, Just over a week till the deadline for the membership survey, if you haven't already please take a moment to fill out the form. Its our chance to influence the future direction and services of the RIPE NCC. Thanks, -bijal :) > [Apologies for duplicate e-mails] > > Dear Colleagues, > > The deadline for completing the 2005 RIPE NCC Membership Survey is > Friday, 8 July 2005. If you have not sent us your input yet, > please take the time to do this. Your contribution to this survey > is important to us. By filling in the 2005 RIPE NCC Membership > Survey, you can influence the future direction and services of the > RIPE NCC. > > The results of the survey, conducted independently by KPMG, will be > incorporated into the RIPE NCC's long-term strategy. I strongly > urge all members to complete this survey and make sure that your > opinion is heard. > > The survey is available at: > http://www.ripe.net/membership/survey2005 > > Kind regards, > > Axel Pawlik > Managing Director > RIPE NCC > www.ripe.net From nic at ces.net Mon Jun 27 15:36:47 2005 From: nic at ces.net (Pavel Vachek) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:36:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes Message-ID: <20050630150213.A3BCA6A00E@postboy.ripe.net> Dear Sir, let me second Mr. Hank Nussbacher's proposal. CESNET, the Czech Republic NREN, had been using the RIPE NCC hostcount data since 1997 for the same purpose. Its use is briefly described in the CESNET 1998 Annual report: http://www.cesnet.cz/doc/zprava1998/kap04.html (unfortunately, only the Czech language version seems to be available now). This data has been extremely useful for us as it helped us find organisations trying to misuse the CESNET IP space. Our access to the raw hostcount data stopped in January 2005 as well. Best regards, Pavel Vachek, CESNET NIC, Prague, The Czech Republic. On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > As someone who was not at RIPE50 but who uses hostcount, I would like to > add my comments and support. I find this service extremely useful. One > real world use is as follows: the university network in Israel has IP > addresses spanning a range of about 16 /16s. All domain names inside the > universities should terminate with ac.il or at the worst org.il. But > often students take a university Unix system that they have access to and > start using it for non-academic purposes (left as an exercise for the > reader to think of what constitutes non-academic :-)). Using grep on the > raw data file I can easily spot those systems that are running > questionable content based on their domain name (co.il for example). > > Sometimes, hackers change an IP address to some name that has certain > character strings that are unique to the hacker realm. By running a > series of greps on the raw data file I can find those systems that may > have been compromised and contact the appropriate ISP in Israel. > > So please - make hostcount work again. Incidentally, it stopped working > in Jan 2005. > > Regards, > Hank From pk at DENIC.DE Thu Jun 30 18:16:51 2005 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:16:51 +0200 Subject: hostcount features [Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes] In-Reply-To: <20050630150213.A3BCA6A00E@postboy.ripe.net> References: <20050630150213.A3BCA6A00E@postboy.ripe.net> Message-ID: <20050630161651.GD796@denics7.denic.de> Pavel Vachek wrote: > This data has been extremely useful for us as it helped us > find organisations trying to misuse the CESNET IP space. Our > access to the raw hostcount data stopped in January 2005 as well. while this is tempting and depending on who actually does the necessary "grep" might be covered by the AUP, I'd like to state that the issue is two-edged. First, it's never complete, so you only find those organisations who both happen to use the wrong IP addresses and are within your TLD, while nothing prevents them from using COM, BIZ or XXX {filter food} names as well. Second, and more important, this kind of policing, although it has been done for years, might reduce the willingness of affected and other parties to allow AXFR access. Experience shows that many organisations have only and explicitly granted AXFR access to support the hostcount statistics data collection (and some DNS quality postprocessing). So, declaring "raw data access" a feature of the hostcount is detrimental to its success. It was a side effect that's gone. -Peter PS: Just to be clear: the DE hostcount raw data must not be published. From nic at ces.net Thu Jun 30 18:43:38 2005 From: nic at ces.net (Pavel Vachek) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 18:43:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: hostcount features [Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes] In-Reply-To: <20050630161651.GD796@denics7.denic.de> References: <20050630150213.A3BCA6A00E@postboy.ripe.net> <20050630161651.GD796@denics7.denic.de> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear Peter, you wrote: > First, it's never complete, so you only find those organisations who both > happen to use the wrong IP addresses and are within your TLD, while > nothing prevents them from using COM, BIZ or XXX {filter food} names as well. You are perfectly right. I have been using only the `.cz' hostcount TLD raw data and no other TLD data because I thought that this was the most common kind of misuse here. > Second, and more important, this kind of policing, although it has been done > for years, might reduce the willingness of affected and other parties to > allow AXFR access. Experience shows that many organisations have only and > explicitly granted AXFR access to support the hostcount statistics data > collection (and some DNS quality postprocessing). So, declaring "raw data > access" a feature of the hostcount is detrimental to its success. It was a > side effect that's gone. Noone from our TLD has ever complained about my access to the hostcount data. If they did not like it, they probably just inhibited the AXFR access to their domains. > -Peter > > PS: Just to be clear: the DE hostcount raw data must not be published. I had never even looked at it. Whan I was signing the Hostcount AUP statement I had explicitly written that I was interested only in the `.cz' TLD data. Best regards, Pavel Vachek, CESNET NIC, Prague. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ iD8DBQFCxCE7Prynl47KNS4RApkFAKCSJVv2I9XqDvHXM8nmpAsH9H5EDACglI7B IAVhKETXRk01V0wFvV989EQ= =JoNT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Thu Jun 30 21:06:23 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:06:23 +0300 (IDT) Subject: hostcount features [Re: [ncc-services-wg] RIPE50 - NCC Services WG Draft Minutes] In-Reply-To: References: <20050630150213.A3BCA6A00E@postboy.ripe.net> <20050630161651.GD796@denics7.denic.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Pavel Vachek wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dear Peter, > you wrote: > > > First, it's never complete, so you only find those organisations who both > > happen to use the wrong IP addresses and are within your TLD, while > > nothing prevents them from using COM, BIZ or XXX {filter food} names as well. > > You are perfectly right. I have been using only the `.cz' > hostcount TLD raw data and no other TLD data because I thought > that this was the most common kind of misuse here. I only access the .il hostcount raw data and have only a need to access that particular cctld and am willing to be either technically or administratively limited that cctld. -Hank > > > Second, and more important, this kind of policing, although it has been done > > for years, might reduce the willingness of affected and other parties to > > allow AXFR access. Experience shows that many organisations have only and > > explicitly granted AXFR access to support the hostcount statistics data > > collection (and some DNS quality postprocessing). So, declaring "raw data > > access" a feature of the hostcount is detrimental to its success. It was a > > side effect that's gone. > > Noone from our TLD has ever complained about my access to the > hostcount data. If they did not like it, they probably just > inhibited the AXFR access to their domains. > > > -Peter > > > > PS: Just to be clear: the DE hostcount raw data must not be published. > > I had never even looked at it. Whan I was signing the > Hostcount AUP statement I had explicitly written that I was > interested only in the `.cz' TLD data. > > Best regards, > Pavel Vachek, CESNET NIC, Prague. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://quantumlab.net/pine_privacy_guard/ > > iD8DBQFCxCE7Prynl47KNS4RApkFAKCSJVv2I9XqDvHXM8nmpAsH9H5EDACglI7B > IAVhKETXRk01V0wFvV989EQ= > =JoNT > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. >