From tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro Mon Aug 8 10:10:08 2005 From: tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro (Tiberiu Ungureanu) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:10:08 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] problems with auto-dbm? Message-ID: <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> Hello. I am trying to create/delete and modify some objects in Ripe database, and it seems that auto-dbm doesn't want to talk to me :( Is it a general problem, or should i check for a PEBKAC? -- Tiberiu Ungureanu Network Engineer iNES Group SRL - Internet Dept. Tel: +40 21 2322112 / Fax: +40 21 2323461 Public GnuPG Key at http://www.ines.ro/public_keys/tbb.gpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro Mon Aug 8 11:14:11 2005 From: tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro (Tiberiu Ungureanu) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:14:11 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] problems with auto-dbm? In-Reply-To: <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> References: <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> Message-ID: <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 11:10 +0300, Tiberiu Ungureanu wrote: > Hello. > > I am trying to create/delete and modify some objects in Ripe database, > and it seems that auto-dbm doesn't want to talk to me :( > > Is it a general problem, or should i check for a PEBKAC? I received some feedback from fellow list members, and it seems the problem is at RIPE, not between my keyboard and my chair. Is there anyone from NCC on this list? /t -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeroen.valcke at belnet.be Mon Aug 8 11:36:12 2005 From: jeroen.valcke at belnet.be (Jeroen Valcke) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:36:12 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] problems with auto-dbm? In-Reply-To: <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> References: <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> Message-ID: <20050808093612.GA3893@jeroen.fw.belnet.be> On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 12:14:11PM +0300, Tiberiu Ungureanu wrote: > On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 11:10 +0300, Tiberiu Ungureanu wrote: > > Hello. > > > > I am trying to create/delete and modify some objects in Ripe database, > > and it seems that auto-dbm doesn't want to talk to me :( > > > > Is it a general problem, or should i check for a PEBKAC? > > I received some feedback from fellow list members, and it seems the > problem is at RIPE, not between my keyboard and my chair. Is there > anyone from NCC on this list? The auto-dbm robot has experienced outages before. In my opinion the annoying part is not that the service is down - heck things occasionally break - but the fact that there is no way to know whether the service is down. A lot of time could be save if NCC could post a service outage message (on this mailing list or maybe on a bulletin board web page) Regards, -Jeroen- -- Jeroen Valcke -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Mon Aug 8 11:58:55 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:58:55 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] problems with auto-dbm? In-Reply-To: <20050808093612.GA3893@jeroen.fw.belnet.be> References: <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050808125743.05d7a8e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> At 11:36 AM 08-08-05 +0200, Jeroen Valcke wrote: Just watch the pretty graphs at: http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/db/mrtg.html :-) -Hank >The auto-dbm robot has experienced outages before. In my opinion the >annoying part is not that the service is down - heck things occasionally >break - but the fact that there is no way to know whether the service is >down. > >A lot of time could be save if NCC could post a service outage message >(on this mailing list or maybe on a bulletin board web page) > >Regards, >-Jeroen- From jeroen.valcke at belnet.be Mon Aug 8 12:19:26 2005 From: jeroen.valcke at belnet.be (Jeroen Valcke) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:19:26 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] problems with auto-dbm? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050808125743.05d7a8e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <1123488608.3998.11.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <1123492451.4278.7.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> <5.1.0.14.2.20050808125743.05d7a8e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <20050808101926.GA4120@jeroen.fw.belnet.be> Looks like it works again. My updates just passed. No communication from NCC. I find this a bit troublesome for an operational service. -Jeroen- On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 12:58:55PM +0300, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > At 11:36 AM 08-08-05 +0200, Jeroen Valcke wrote: > > Just watch the pretty graphs at: > http://www.ripe.net/info/stats/db/mrtg.html > > :-) > > -Hank > > >The auto-dbm robot has experienced outages before. In my opinion the > >annoying part is not that the service is down - heck things occasionally > >break - but the fact that there is no way to know whether the service is > >down. > > > >A lot of time could be save if NCC could post a service outage message > >(on this mailing list or maybe on a bulletin board web page) > > > >Regards, > >-Jeroen- -- Jeroen Valcke -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From trudy at ripe.net Mon Aug 8 12:53:43 2005 From: trudy at ripe.net (Trudy Prins) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:53:43 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] database update problem Message-ID: <42F739B7.5060102@ripe.net> Dear Colleagues, At the moment, one out of the two database update queues is not working correctly. It is not processing updates sent to . This has been a problem since Saturday, 6 August 2005. The problem was caused by a single spam message which stopped the dbupdate process. We are working on a solution to process all the queued statements; We expect everything to work as normal within the next hour. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause. Regards, Trudy Prins RIPE DBM Support Software Engineering Departement From shane at ripe.net Thu Aug 11 11:41:23 2005 From: shane at ripe.net (Shane Kerr) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:41:23 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Database updates not visible Message-ID: <42FB1D43.7080905@ripe.net> Dear Colleagues Our query servers are not synchronising with our update server. A large update is taking place. You may have received an acknowledgement to your update, but do not see your changes when you query the database. Do not worry, the changes have been made, and will be visible as soon as we can update our query servers. If you have not received an acknowledgement to your update, please be patient. The server will process your update as soon as possible. Apologies for any inconvience. -- Shane Kerr Software Engineering Department Manager RIPE NCC From Marcus.Ruchti at colt.net Thu Aug 11 12:41:54 2005 From: Marcus.Ruchti at colt.net (Marcus.Ruchti at colt.net) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:41:54 +0100 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Anything wrong with RIPE DB? Message-ID: Hi all, Do you know if anything happened with the RIPE DB last evening or even this morning? Our RIPE robot, reading out AS-sets and route objects, deleted a lot of prefixes. Started just a few minutes ago again without any changes to the Robot we got many prefixes back. This was of course service affecting for single-homed PI customers :-( Now I wonder if RIPE is doing something with the DB. I've seen the output has been changed (reduced mainly) but this does not affect my script. So any hints from your side are appreciated. Thanks Marcus Ruchti COLT Telecom, Frankfurt ************************************************************************************* The message is intended for the named addressee only and may not be disclosed to or used by anyone else, nor may it be copied in any way. The contents of this message and its attachments are confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the named addressee and/or have received this message in error, please advise us by e-mailing security at colt.net and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any copies. Internet communications are not secure and COLT does not accept responsibility for this message, its contents nor responsibility for any viruses. No contracts can be created or varied on behalf of COLT Telecommunications, its subsidiaries or affiliates ("COLT") and any other party by email Communications unless expressly agreed in writing with such other party. Please note that incoming emails will be automatically scanned to eliminate potential viruses and unsolicited promotional emails. For more information refer to www.colt.net or contact us on +44(0)20 7390 3900. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shane at ripe.net Thu Aug 11 14:22:25 2005 From: shane at ripe.net (Shane Kerr) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:22:25 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [db-wg] Anything wrong with RIPE DB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42FB4301.4070405@ripe.net> Marcus Ruchti, Marcus.Ruchti at colt.net wrote: > Do you know if anything happened with the RIPE DB last evening > or even this morning? > > Our RIPE robot, reading out AS-sets and route objects, deleted a lot > of prefixes. Started just a few minutes > ago again without any changes to the Robot we got many prefixes back. > This was of course service affecting for single-homed PI customers :-( > > Now I wonder if RIPE is doing something with the DB. I've seen the > output has been changed (reduced mainly) but this does not affect my > script. So any hints from your side are appreciated. > This is probably related to the update server being very busy right now. We have paused the processing of large updates (more than 500 objects) right now, to allow other updates to go through. We will resume them when all of the other updates have gone through. Delays were about 90 minutes. We have also gotten our query servers working properly again, so updates are now immediately visible. Apologies again for any problems that this has caused you. -- Shane Kerr Software Engineering Department Manager RIPE NCC From shane at ripe.net Thu Aug 11 15:52:58 2005 From: shane at ripe.net (Shane Kerr) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:52:58 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [db-wg] Database updates not visible In-Reply-To: <42FB1D43.7080905@ripe.net> References: <42FB1D43.7080905@ripe.net> Message-ID: <42FB583A.5040604@ripe.net> Shane Kerr wrote: >Our query servers are not synchronising with our update server. A large >update is taking place. > > The query servers are now synchronised with the update server. All pending updates have been processed, and are visible normally. -- Shane Kerr Software Engineering Department Manager RIPE NCC From brettcarr at ripe.net Wed Aug 17 11:47:12 2005 From: brettcarr at ripe.net (Brett Carr) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:12 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] ccTLD Mailing List Message-ID: <200508170947.j7H9lCmq012312@birch.ripe.net> The RIPE NCC have setup a new mailing list aimed at ccTLD operators. The aim of the list is to: 1. Enable ccTLD operators to discuss DNS and other operational Internet issues. 2. Enable the RIPE NCC to communicate with many ccTLD operators in a single forum (For issues related to secondary DNS etc) If you are a ccTLD operator please feel free to sign up to the list here: http://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/cctld Regards -- Brett Carr Ripe Network Coordination Centre Systems Engineer -- Operations Group Singel 258 Amsterdam NL GPG Key fingerprint = F20D B2A7 C91D E370 44CF F244 B6A1 EF48 E743 F7D8 From ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de Wed Aug 17 12:10:48 2005 From: ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de (Carsten Schiefner) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:10:48 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] ccTLD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <200508170947.j7H9lCmq012312@birch.ripe.net> References: <200508170947.j7H9lCmq012312@birch.ripe.net> Message-ID: <43030D28.50709@schiefner.de> Brett, could you please briefly outline by what means this list would distinguish itself from apparently very similar, already existing lists in that area? Thanks and best, Carsten Brett Carr wrote: > The RIPE NCC have setup a new mailing list aimed at ccTLD operators. > > The aim of the list is to: > > 1. Enable ccTLD operators to discuss DNS and other operational Internet > issues. > 2. Enable the RIPE NCC to communicate with many ccTLD operators in a single > forum (For issues related to secondary DNS etc) > > If you are a ccTLD operator please feel free to sign up to the list here: > > http://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/cctld > > Regards > > -- > Brett Carr Ripe Network Coordination Centre > Systems Engineer -- Operations Group Singel 258 Amsterdam NL > GPG Key fingerprint = F20D B2A7 C91D E370 44CF F244 B6A1 EF48 E743 F7D8 From brettcarr at ripe.net Wed Aug 17 13:55:21 2005 From: brettcarr at ripe.net (Brett Carr) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:55:21 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] RE ccTLD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <43030D28.50709@schiefner.de> Message-ID: <200508171155.j7HBtLmq015227@birch.ripe.net> Hi, > -----Original Message----- > From: ncc-services-wg-admin at ripe.net > [mailto:ncc-services-wg-admin at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Carsten Schiefner > Sent: 17 August 2005 12:11 > To: dns-wg at ripe.net; ncc-services-wg at ripe.net > Subject: [ncc-services-wg] ccTLD Mailing List > > Brett, > > could you please briefly outline by what means this list > would distinguish itself from apparently very similar, > already existing lists in that area? > My apologies for any confusion my announcement may of caused. This list is primarily to improve communications between the RIPE NCC and ccTLD's that we provide secondary DNS service for. It is not intended to take away discussions from any other lists all of which do a fine job in their current format. To clarify this is a closed list and you only need to subscribe to it if you are a ccTLD operator and have secondary DNS provided by the NCC. If there is another list which contains a large proportion of the relevant ccTLD operators then I was not aware of it. Regards Brett -- Brett Carr Ripe Network Coordination Centre System Engineer -- Operations Group Singel 258 Amsterdam NL GPG Key fingerprint = F20D B2A7 C91D E370 44CF F244 B6A1 EF48 E743 F7D8 From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz Wed Aug 17 15:28:56 2005 From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:28:56 -0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [dns-wg] ccTLD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <43030D28.50709@schiefner.de> References: <200508170947.j7H9lCmq012312@birch.ripe.net> <43030D28.50709@schiefner.de> Message-ID: Carsten, Just so we can self-check, what other lists do you think ccTLD operators should be on? At 12:10 +0200 8/17/05, Carsten Schiefner wrote: >Brett, > >could you please briefly outline by what means this list would >distinguish itself from apparently very similar, already existing >lists in that area? > >Thanks and best, > > Carsten > >Brett Carr wrote: >> The RIPE NCC have setup a new mailing list aimed at ccTLD operators. >> The aim of the list is to: >> 1. Enable ccTLD operators to discuss DNS and other operational Internet >> issues. >> 2. Enable the RIPE NCC to communicate with many ccTLD operators in a single >> forum (For issues related to secondary DNS etc) >> If you are a ccTLD operator please feel free to sign up to the list here: >> http://www.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/cctld >> Regards >> -- >> Brett Carr Ripe Network Coordination Centre >> Systems Engineer -- Operations Group Singel 258 Amsterdam NL >> GPG Key fingerprint = F20D B2A7 C91D E370 44CF F244 B6A1 EF48 E743 F7D8 -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar If you knew what I was thinking, you'd understand what I was saying. From ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de Fri Aug 19 16:09:59 2005 From: ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de (Carsten Schiefner) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:09:59 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [dns-wg] RE ccTLD Mailing List In-Reply-To: <200508171155.j7HBtLmq015227@birch.ripe.net> References: <200508171155.j7HBtLmq015227@birch.ripe.net> Message-ID: <4305E837.60606@schiefner.de> Hi Brett, Brett Carr wrote: >>could you please briefly outline by what means this list >>would distinguish itself from apparently very similar, >>already existing lists in that area? > > My apologies for any confusion my announcement may of caused. > > This list is primarily to improve communications between the RIPE NCC and > ccTLD's that we provide secondary DNS service for. > It is not intended to take away discussions from any other lists all of > which do a fine job in their current format. > To clarify this is a closed list and you only need to subscribe to it if you > are a ccTLD operator and have secondary DNS provided by the NCC. > > If there is another list which contains a large proportion of the relevant > ccTLD operators then I was not aware of it. thanks for the clarification - this settles my concern that a "me too" list is about to be created for stuff that is being covered already elsewhere. In particular the first bullet point in your original email raised that concern. Best - and have a nice weekend, all: Carsten From ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de Fri Aug 19 16:14:20 2005 From: ripe-wgs.cs at schiefner.de (Carsten Schiefner) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 16:14:20 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Re: [dns-wg] ccTLD Mailing List In-Reply-To: References: <200508170947.j7H9lCmq012312@birch.ripe.net> <43030D28.50709@schiefner.de> Message-ID: <4305E93C.3010005@schiefner.de> Hi Ed, Edward Lewis wrote: > Carsten, > > Just so we can self-check, what other lists do you think ccTLD operators > should be on? comes to my mind, for example - this one also covers technical topics of a wider relevance when they occur. Then there are various regional fora, such as CENTR's Tech WG list for example. Although they partly might be restricted to members only. Best, Carsten From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Thu Aug 25 11:53:58 2005 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:53:58 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Lawsuits and recovering lost IP addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050601113220.00acf0b8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Not sure which WG to post this so I'll try here. Hypothetical case: Suppose there is an ISP that has a /16. They never informed their customers that the assigned PA address space has to be returned once they disconnect from their service (see http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv4-policies.html#pa_pi for how it should be done, but wasn't in the past). Now when they see all sorts of announcements of /24s and /22s from their block and they try to recover these lost IPs (contacting the ex-customer or their usptreams to terminate announcement), they are threatened with lawsuits that deletion of the IPs will cause irrepairable harm to the ex-customer and the fact that the LIR never informed the customer of PA recovery therefore entitles them to keep the IPs - forever - or for however long they wish. I don't want this to be a long thread on the pros and cons and what should or shouldn't be done. What I am *specifically* looking for is actual lawsuits and court cases that have taken place in the RIPE sphere in this area and what the outcome of those lawsuits were. Thanks, Hank From president at ukraine.su Thu Aug 25 12:11:08 2005 From: president at ukraine.su (Max Tulyev) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:11:08 +0400 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Lawsuits and recovering lost IP addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <200508251411.08854.president@ukraine.su> Hi! It is really good idea to put mnt-routes: into they /16. So customers can't make route objects without permission of /16 owner and their announces will be dropped out. In my neighbourhood if admin-c or tech-c of inetnum write a letter to somebody asking to terminate incorrect announces - they do it. About harm and laws - think about it and make correct agreements with users. Anyway, after agreement is terminated I think IP owner owes nothing to the customer and can use his IPs as he wish. > Not sure which WG to post this so I'll try here. > > Hypothetical case: Suppose there is an ISP that has a /16. They never > informed their customers that the assigned PA address space has to be > returned once they disconnect from their service (see > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv4-policies.html#pa_pi for how it should be > done, but wasn't in the past). > > Now when they see all sorts of announcements of /24s and /22s from their > block and they try to recover these lost IPs (contacting the ex-customer or > their usptreams to terminate announcement), they are threatened with > lawsuits that deletion of the IPs will cause irrepairable harm to the > ex-customer and the fact that the LIR never informed the customer of PA > recovery therefore entitles them to keep the IPs - forever - or for however > long they wish. > > I don't want this to be a long thread on the pros and cons and what should > or shouldn't be done. What I am *specifically* looking for is actual > lawsuits and court cases that have taken place in the RIPE sphere in this > area and what the outcome of those lawsuits were. > > Thanks, > Hank -- ? ?????????, ?????? ?????? (MT6561-RIPE, 2:463/253 at FIDO) From tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro Thu Aug 25 12:36:54 2005 From: tiberiu.ungureanu at ines.ro (Tiberiu Ungureanu) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:36:54 +0300 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Lawsuits and recovering lost IP addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <1124966215.4065.52.camel@Mobile.Local.iNES.RO> On Thu, 2005-08-25 at 12:53 +0300, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > Not sure which WG to post this so I'll try here. > > Hypothetical case: Suppose there is an ISP that has a /16. They never > informed their customers that the assigned PA address space has to be > returned once they disconnect from their service (see > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv4-policies.html#pa_pi for how it should be > done, but wasn't in the past). > > Now when they see all sorts of announcements of /24s and /22s from their > block and they try to recover these lost IPs (contacting the ex-customer or Similar things happened here once. But we resolved the matter very easy: The ex-customer claimed we cannot take his IP's back, and we said "they are NOT your IP's, you never paid for them, so you never bought them. they are not even _OUR_ IP's, we borrowed them from IANA through RIPE, and we have the right to use them as long as we fulfill certain requirements. You do not fulfill this requirements anymore, so we are required by IANA to take this IP addresses back from you." End of story. Maybe same thing applies to you also. -- Tiberiu Ungureanu Network Engineer iNES Group SRL - Internet Dept. Tel: +40 21 2322112 / Fax: +40 21 2323461 Public GnuPG Key at http://www.ines.ro/public_keys/tbb.gpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Thu Aug 25 14:05:24 2005 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:05:24 +0200 Subject: [ncc-services-wg] Lawsuits and recovering lost IP addresses In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050825124434.00aef3e8@efes.iucc.ac.il> Message-ID: <430DB404.7000202@cc.univie.ac.at> Hank Nussbacher wrote: > Not sure which WG to post this so I'll try here. My 1st minute feeling would be ncc-services... > Hypothetical case: Suppose there is an ISP that has a /16. They never > informed their customers that the assigned PA address space has to be > returned once they disconnect from their service (see > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ipv4-policies.html#pa_pi for how it should > be done, but wasn't in the past). I think we need to be a bit more specific, in particular when this relates to pretty old address blocks. Some of those older allocations are (formally) tagged as PI (typical examples are the relics of the last-resort blocks which in some cases were managed by ISPs), others are tagged as UNSPECIFIED. My reading is that - in the PI case the assignments remain valid as long as the _assignee_ fulfills the _original_ assignment criteria, -for the UNSPECIFIED case it was (and still is) a decision made by the holder of the allocation whether the assignemnts get tagged as PI or PA. E.g. in our case we still use the old UNSPECIFIED block, but we always alert the assignee about the condition that the assignment is only valid as long as they receive connectivity from us. And the assignments get tagged as PA. (With a very few exception where the assignments date back to 1993 and 1994.) Still another case would be PI applications and assignemnts which got submitted by way of an ISP/LIR. I don't think that it would technically make sense in this case to require the assignee to return the addresses upon termination of whatever contract the agreed on (returned to the RIR!!), albeit it would formally be possible, I guess. This would probably be close to "charging for addresses", unless it is a very small amount of maoney as an administrative fee. > Now when they see all sorts of announcements of /24s and /22s from their > block and they try to recover these lost IPs (contacting the ex-customer > or their usptreams to terminate announcement), they are threatened with > lawsuits that deletion of the IPs will cause irrepairable harm to the > ex-customer and the fact that the LIR never informed the customer of PA > recovery therefore entitles them to keep the IPs - forever - or for > however long they wish. > > I don't want this to be a long thread on the pros and cons and what > should or shouldn't be done. What I am *specifically* looking for is > actual lawsuits and court cases that have taken place in the RIPE sphere > in this area and what the outcome of those lawsuits were. > > Thanks, > Hank Wilfried. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at UniVie Computer Center - ACOnet : Tel: +43 1 4277 - 140 33 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4277 - 9 140 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : RIPE-DB: WW144, PGP keyID 0xF0ACB369 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~