[ncc-services-wg] Fwd: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG

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As there where no comments I will consider these as final.

- - kurtis -

On 2003-09-30, at 22.04, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote:

> 	
>
> Please send corrections / comments.
>
> Best regards,
>
> - kurtis -
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Sabrina Wilmot <sabrina at ripe.net>
>> Date: mån sep 29, 2003  13:06:11 Europe/Stockholm
>> To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis at kurtis.pp.se>
>> Subject: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG
>>
>> Hi Kurtis,
>>
>> Please find below the minutes of the Ripe NCC Services WG at RIPE 46.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sabrina
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>>
>>>                 RIPE 46, Amsterdam
>>>
>>> Working Group: Ripe NCC Services
>>> Chair: Kurt Erik Lindqvist
>>> Scribe: Isabel Pinto Coelho Sena
>>>
>>> Agenda:
>>>
>>> Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30
>>>
>>> 1.      NCC Services WG Charter (Kurtis)
>>> 2.      RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik)
>>>           Service level and activities 2004
>>> 3.      RIPE NCC Information Services
>>> 4.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>>
>>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30
>>>
>>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van  
>>> Gulik).
>>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans
>>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>> X.      AOB
>>> Z.      Close
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> 1.      NCC Services WG Charter
>>>
>>> WG Charter presented. No objections were made to it's content.
>>>
>>> 2.      RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik, Managing Director  
>>> RIPE
>>> NCC)
>>>         Service level and activities 2004
>>>
>>> See Axel's presentation at
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who has read/seen the Member Update?
>>>         [~20 people raised their hands]
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who here are Members?
>>>         [~60 people raised their hands]
>>>
>>> 3.      RIPE NCC Information Services
>>>
>>> See Axel's previous presentation from slide 27 onwards
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf
>>>
>>> 4.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>>
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Are there any questions for Axel?
>>>         [No one had questions]
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I have one myself: You spoke of the data you have
>>> that can be used to educate journalists, where do you want to push
>>> them, just as a general awareness?
>>>
>>> Axel Pawlik (MD RIPE NCC): We want them to know that we are working
>>> well, we want the industry to tell them "do not interfere, they work
>>> well".  As an example: name servers
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Any other questions?
>>>         [None were raised]
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : please register for the GM
>>>
>>> Axel Pawlik : there was a heated discussion on the mailing lists?  
>>> None now?
>>>       [None responded]
>>>
>>> Rob Blokzijl (RIPE Chairman): I'm surprised that there is no one that
>>> is willing to discuss the issues off the mailing-list, so I will  
>>> bring
>>> up 2 issues that were often discussed. First one is: Whether all  
>>> these
>>> services that the RIPE NCC offers are needed? I would like also to
>>> point that there was no discussion on whether they are _useful_
>>> however. Then there was the issue of a flat free financial
>>> contribution versus a supermarket scenario? Meaning that one could
>>> pick and choose the services one is willing to pay and have use for.
>>>
>>> Wilfried Woeber (Vienna University - ACOnet): I've observed through
>>> the years another organization where the same discussion was going on
>>> for years, started out as a flat free and then some started to object
>>> to this model. In the end, they found the most reasonable solution:
>>> you buy all or nothing. It is difficult to find out which activities
>>> are optional and which mandatory. Individual amount, increasing the
>>> administration overhead that goes along with keeping up with this
>>> supermarket model, this will not come for free... The complexity that
>>> we might inject into the subject is not going to be easy. It also
>>> splits the RIPE Community into 2 / 3 / 4 camps. Copyrighting on
>>> certain Services, making people pay for copies. It will de-stabilise
>>> the RIPE NCC and the Community.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Well, a number of people are questioning the order
>>> and priority of the activities.
>>>
>>> Rob Blockzijl (RIPE Chair): I hope that one of the results of having
>>> this WG is to make people remember why certain services were created
>>> in the past, as the NCC did not just came up on a idle afternoon  
>>> with:
>>> "let's create an activity". The NCC has always listened to the
>>> Community's input. It might not have been clear as to where and when
>>> the decisions were taken, that's why I'm glad we have this WG. Having
>>> it, it is possible to revisit the past and re-evaluate current
>>> services, although it might be more constructive to look at the  
>>> future
>>> and we can improve.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : How many of you have read the Activity Plan?
>>>         [~10 max raised their hands]
>>> I'm concerned because some people on the mailing list indicated that
>>> they can not influence the AP, but most here have not read it.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : If there are no other questions I'll see you all  
>>> on
>>> Thursday.
>>>
>>> FINISH
>>>
>>> NO ACTIONS
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30
>>>
>>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by
>>>         Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache)
>>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman)
>>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>> X.      AOB
>>> Z.      Close
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by
>>>         Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache)
>>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: As there were quite a lot of questions on the
>>> mailing list about X.509, we will have a presentation about it and
>>> also invite the other RIRs to explain what they are doing in their
>>> region.  Also, at the last session I forgot to mention that we might
>>> require a co-chair, as it is mentioned in the charter.
>>>
>>> Dirk-Willem van Gulik: This presentation focuses mainly on the issue
>>> of trust, not as much on the technical aspects of X.509
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-pki-x509.pdf
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : any questions ?
>>> [None]
>>>
>>> Presentation by Andrei Robachevsky, Chief Technical Officer, Ripe NCC
>>>
>>>              "PKI development at the RIPE NCC"
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-pki.pdf
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: any questions?
>>>
>>> Taiji Kimura from JPNIC: are there plans for non-repudiation of the
>>> query, validate queries to the DB?
>>>
>>> Andrei Robachevsky : no, this is not about the DB itself, but more
>>> about correspondence with the NCC.
>>>
>>> Wilfried Woeber (DB WG Chair): We have been discussing whether we  
>>> want
>>> to introduce a system to tag objects in the DB with the auth method
>>> that was used for the last update of the object. This is an idea that
>>> we have been playing with, if the community wants this, then please
>>> come forward with a plan.
>>>
>>> Wilfried Woeber: About integrating a Certification Authority across
>>> RIRs, I would recommend to first try it in our region, find out if it
>>> works well. I'm not a fan of having hierarchy in the trust
>>> model. Individual registries should do it in their region, then we
>>> find out what we need to cross the borders. I would not like RIRs to
>>> all go to Verisign for instance.
>>>
>>> Janos Zsako (RIPE NCC Executive Board): about message signing, we  
>>> live
>>> with the assumptions that the db is in a secure server, so whether
>>> after the modification/update with PKI the data is still stable is
>>> questionable. We can store the update method, again assuming that the
>>> db cannot be corrupted in the mean time. So we need a system that
>>> verifies that the db has not been corrupted.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: in conclusion, issue is if queries and/or DB  
>>> entries
>>> must be signed, and whether the content of the DB is secure, but this
>>> is maybe more a topic for the DB WG.
>>>
>>> ARIN - Ginny Listman:
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-arin-x509.pdf
>>>
>>> APNIC - Anne Lord: we are doing the same as Ripe NCC, issuing
>>> certificates for our equivalent of the LIR Portal, MyApnic. We have
>>> issued 500 certificates so far.
>>>
>>> LACNIC Raul Echeberria: we would like to implement a certification
>>> system before 2004. Right now we are still working on the budget that
>>> would be needed for it.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Thank you all.
>>>
>>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman)
>>>
>>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>>> nccserv-rdns.pdf
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I like the idea, any questions ?
>>> [None]
>>>
>>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Now we have the open mike session: floor is open.  
>>> In
>>> future sessions I would like to have people's presentations or
>>> proposals in writing on the mailing list before they are presented at
>>> RIPE Meetings
>>>
>>> Hank Nussbacher (IUCC): I have been asked by many people to speak up
>>> during this WG as I have sent some emails to the mailing list. My  
>>> view
>>> is that a lot of the members had their budget cut and the NNC has not
>>> had their budget cut in the same fashion. We are apathetic, 2250 euro
>>> is not that much to warrant that people can spend 250 euro/1 hour of
>>> their time on the mailing list. There are many good things in the  
>>> NCC:
>>> DB group is the world leader. But to evaluate how the NCC is spending
>>> their money we need a more transparent Activity Plan. For instance  
>>> for
>>> the trainings, they are free of charge. I would like to know the
>>> budget and man-power needed for these free trainings. Instead, it's
>>> budget is incorporated in the RS budget, there is no way to know how
>>> much of that is used for the trainings, there is no break-down of the
>>> costs. The TTM group, IRT - there has been nothing mentioned about it
>>> at this meeting BTW - there is nothing about it in the AP, therefore
>>> we do not know the manpower and budget it needs, the only way to know
>>> for the membership is to have a break-down and it does not exist. 10
>>> to 20 people have responded to my mails, which is not really enough  
>>> to
>>> know what the majority of the community thinks about these issues.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist : yes, people do not care, like we saw at the last
>>> session on Tuesday, that only a handful read the AP. I guess the
>>> majority is happy, but that is difficult to double-check, people do
>>> not go on the mailing list only to say that they are happy. Next year
>>> at the RIPE Meeting in May, the NCC will give more insight on the
>>> budget & AP and there will be more time for comment before the Annual
>>> Meeting 3 months later.
>>>
>>> Axel Pawlik: The level of detail we give in the financial report,
>>> question is: how deep should we go into detail? For the trainings  
>>> yes,
>>> not so difficult. I will work together with the Board to see what we
>>> can adapt. And I would like to clarify that the IRT is not really an
>>> incident response team, it is not a separate team as such. It is an
>>> activity.
>>>
>>> Hank Nussbacher : let's say that the TTM group costs a 300.000
>>> euros/year, but we can get the same service from a commercial
>>> company. Why not do a market survey before introducing a new  
>>> activity?
>>>
>>> Axel Pawlik: About the TTM, there is a lot of info about it in the  
>>> AP.
>>>
>>> Daniel Karrenberg: I worry because of economic problems. Training, if
>>> the membership wants more transparency, OK, but whether it is really
>>> necessary? Why train New LIRs, what do I care? As one of the persons
>>> who started with these trainings, I would like to clarify that they
>>> are not done only for the benefit of the trainee, but to the whole
>>> community as well. Creating a well oiled community. The better things
>>> work, the less interaction at the NCC. Also, the NCC would not be as
>>> accepted without trainings. For many people, it is only by attending
>>> the courses that they understand and accept the NCC's role.  Just
>>> looking at it from a financial point of view, if you do that too  
>>> much,
>>> you might risk the NCC as a whole organisation. You want and need the
>>> NCC to be more stable than the rest of the members. The impact of the
>>> NCC crumbling is a whole lot different. I also would like to remind
>>> people that one of the ways for us to ensure impartiality and
>>> neutrality is by hiring international staff, this is expensive. Were
>>> we to be driven only by financials, we would not hire from Turkey or
>>> Africa. Yes, lets have a look at the financials, but lets us not be
>>> driven by it. Because it might be good for today, but not for
>>> tomorrow.
>>>
>>> Kurtis Lindqvist: I agree, but showing the members the budget is not
>>> saying that you are doing things bad. There are 2 issues:
>>> 1) transparency on costs and
>>> 2) evaluation of activities and how they benefit the community.
>>>
>>> Hank Nussbacher: Some services are excellent. But whether it benefits
>>> the community that someone goes to all the ICANN Meetings, it is
>>> needed, but the members might think it is not. In the same way that
>>> the Membership would live, accept to still have mail-from auth, but  
>>> we
>>> have it better.
>>>
>>> Kurt Kayser (N-IX Nurnberg Internet eXchange) : About the trainings,  
>>> a
>>> while back I proposed to find partners in countries, we could offer
>>> the service to train people in German, since we are very familiar  
>>> with
>>> all the policies & procedures. But I never heard anything about this
>>> from the NCC.
>>>
>>> Axel Pawlik : We are looking at better ways of doing our
>>> trainings. People like our trainings but it does not scale, your
>>> proposal does scale. But how do we do it, how is that training
>>> standardised, do we need to certify trainers ??? But we are  
>>> definitely
>>> looking at it.
>>>
>>> Daniel Bovio (RIPE NCC Board): Hank said that the "silent majority"  
>>> do
>>> not care to show up at meetings, or communicate on the
>>> mailing-list. This is a problem, they do not know what the activities
>>> are. We, the RIPE Community, have always been the main source for
>>> ideas to the NCC and their activities. The Board needs to go on with
>>> these activities anyway, try to involve members, find out what they
>>> want, the survey was good in this respect. This group is the main
>>> source of the main ideas, there is a vast group that don't care,
>>> others do and those end up leading were the ship is going. We do not
>>> get enough feedback.
>>>
>>> Kurtis: Thank you all for coming
>>>
>>> FINISH
>>>
>>> NO ACTIONS
>>>
>  
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