[ncc-services-wg] Fwd: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG
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Kurt Erik Lindqvist
kurtis at kurtis.pp.se
Tue Sep 30 22:04:31 CEST 2003
Please send corrections / comments. Best regards, - kurtis - Begin forwarded message: > From: Sabrina Wilmot <sabrina at ripe.net> > Date: mån sep 29, 2003 13:06:11 Europe/Stockholm > To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis at kurtis.pp.se> > Subject: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG > > Hi Kurtis, > > Please find below the minutes of the Ripe NCC Services WG at RIPE 46. > > Regards, > Sabrina > RIPE NCC > > >> RIPE 46, Amsterdam >> >> Working Group: Ripe NCC Services >> Chair: Kurt Erik Lindqvist >> Scribe: Isabel Pinto Coelho Sena >> >> Agenda: >> >> Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30 >> >> 1. NCC Services WG Charter (Kurtis) >> 2. RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik) >> Service level and activities 2004 >> 3. RIPE NCC Information Services >> 4. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >> >> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 >> >> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van >> Gulik). >> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >> and what other RIRs have done. >> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans >> 7. Proposals from the community >> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >> X. AOB >> Z. Close >> ________________________________________________________________ >> >> 1. NCC Services WG Charter >> >> WG Charter presented. No objections were made to it's content. >> >> 2. RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik, Managing Director >> RIPE >> NCC) >> Service level and activities 2004 >> >> See Axel's presentation at >> >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who has read/seen the Member Update? >> [~20 people raised their hands] >> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who here are Members? >> [~60 people raised their hands] >> >> 3. RIPE NCC Information Services >> >> See Axel's previous presentation from slide 27 onwards >> >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf >> >> 4. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >> >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : Are there any questions for Axel? >> [No one had questions] >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : I have one myself: You spoke of the data you have >> that can be used to educate journalists, where do you want to push >> them, just as a general awareness? >> >> Axel Pawlik (MD RIPE NCC): We want them to know that we are working >> well, we want the industry to tell them "do not interfere, they work >> well". As an example: name servers >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: Any other questions? >> [None were raised] >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : please register for the GM >> >> Axel Pawlik : there was a heated discussion on the mailing lists? >> None now? >> [None responded] >> >> Rob Blokzijl (RIPE Chairman): I'm surprised that there is no one that >> is willing to discuss the issues off the mailing-list, so I will bring >> up 2 issues that were often discussed. First one is: Whether all these >> services that the RIPE NCC offers are needed? I would like also to >> point that there was no discussion on whether they are _useful_ >> however. Then there was the issue of a flat free financial >> contribution versus a supermarket scenario? Meaning that one could >> pick and choose the services one is willing to pay and have use for. >> >> Wilfried Woeber (Vienna University - ACOnet): I've observed through >> the years another organization where the same discussion was going on >> for years, started out as a flat free and then some started to object >> to this model. In the end, they found the most reasonable solution: >> you buy all or nothing. It is difficult to find out which activities >> are optional and which mandatory. Individual amount, increasing the >> administration overhead that goes along with keeping up with this >> supermarket model, this will not come for free... The complexity that >> we might inject into the subject is not going to be easy. It also >> splits the RIPE Community into 2 / 3 / 4 camps. Copyrighting on >> certain Services, making people pay for copies. It will de-stabilise >> the RIPE NCC and the Community. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: Well, a number of people are questioning the order >> and priority of the activities. >> >> Rob Blockzijl (RIPE Chair): I hope that one of the results of having >> this WG is to make people remember why certain services were created >> in the past, as the NCC did not just came up on a idle afternoon with: >> "let's create an activity". The NCC has always listened to the >> Community's input. It might not have been clear as to where and when >> the decisions were taken, that's why I'm glad we have this WG. Having >> it, it is possible to revisit the past and re-evaluate current >> services, although it might be more constructive to look at the future >> and we can improve. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : How many of you have read the Activity Plan? >> [~10 max raised their hands] >> I'm concerned because some people on the mailing list indicated that >> they can not influence the AP, but most here have not read it. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : If there are no other questions I'll see you all on >> Thursday. >> >> FINISH >> >> NO ACTIONS >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> >> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30 >> >> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by >> Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache) >> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >> and what other RIRs have done. >> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman) >> 7. Proposals from the community >> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >> X. AOB >> Z. Close >> >> ________________________________________________________________ >> >> 5. Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by >> Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache) >> Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC >> and what other RIRs have done. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: As there were quite a lot of questions on the >> mailing list about X.509, we will have a presentation about it and >> also invite the other RIRs to explain what they are doing in their >> region. Also, at the last session I forgot to mention that we might >> require a co-chair, as it is mentioned in the charter. >> >> Dirk-Willem van Gulik: This presentation focuses mainly on the issue >> of trust, not as much on the technical aspects of X.509 >> >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-pki-x509.pdf >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : any questions ? >> [None] >> >> Presentation by Andrei Robachevsky, Chief Technical Officer, Ripe NCC >> >> "PKI development at the RIPE NCC" >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-pki.pdf >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: any questions? >> >> Taiji Kimura from JPNIC: are there plans for non-repudiation of the >> query, validate queries to the DB? >> >> Andrei Robachevsky : no, this is not about the DB itself, but more >> about correspondence with the NCC. >> >> Wilfried Woeber (DB WG Chair): We have been discussing whether we want >> to introduce a system to tag objects in the DB with the auth method >> that was used for the last update of the object. This is an idea that >> we have been playing with, if the community wants this, then please >> come forward with a plan. >> >> Wilfried Woeber: About integrating a Certification Authority across >> RIRs, I would recommend to first try it in our region, find out if it >> works well. I'm not a fan of having hierarchy in the trust >> model. Individual registries should do it in their region, then we >> find out what we need to cross the borders. I would not like RIRs to >> all go to Verisign for instance. >> >> Janos Zsako (RIPE NCC Executive Board): about message signing, we live >> with the assumptions that the db is in a secure server, so whether >> after the modification/update with PKI the data is still stable is >> questionable. We can store the update method, again assuming that the >> db cannot be corrupted in the mean time. So we need a system that >> verifies that the db has not been corrupted. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: in conclusion, issue is if queries and/or DB entries >> must be signed, and whether the content of the DB is secure, but this >> is maybe more a topic for the DB WG. >> >> ARIN - Ginny Listman: >> >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-arin-x509.pdf >> >> APNIC - Anne Lord: we are doing the same as Ripe NCC, issuing >> certificates for our equivalent of the LIR Portal, MyApnic. We have >> issued 500 certificates so far. >> >> LACNIC Raul Echeberria: we would like to implement a certification >> system before 2004. Right now we are still working on the budget that >> would be needed for it. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: Thank you all. >> >> 6. DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman) >> >> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- >> nccserv-rdns.pdf >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : I like the idea, any questions ? >> [None] >> >> 7. Proposals from the community >> 8. Discussion & input time / Open Mic session >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: Now we have the open mike session: floor is open. In >> future sessions I would like to have people's presentations or >> proposals in writing on the mailing list before they are presented at >> RIPE Meetings >> >> Hank Nussbacher (IUCC): I have been asked by many people to speak up >> during this WG as I have sent some emails to the mailing list. My view >> is that a lot of the members had their budget cut and the NNC has not >> had their budget cut in the same fashion. We are apathetic, 2250 euro >> is not that much to warrant that people can spend 250 euro/1 hour of >> their time on the mailing list. There are many good things in the NCC: >> DB group is the world leader. But to evaluate how the NCC is spending >> their money we need a more transparent Activity Plan. For instance for >> the trainings, they are free of charge. I would like to know the >> budget and man-power needed for these free trainings. Instead, it's >> budget is incorporated in the RS budget, there is no way to know how >> much of that is used for the trainings, there is no break-down of the >> costs. The TTM group, IRT - there has been nothing mentioned about it >> at this meeting BTW - there is nothing about it in the AP, therefore >> we do not know the manpower and budget it needs, the only way to know >> for the membership is to have a break-down and it does not exist. 10 >> to 20 people have responded to my mails, which is not really enough to >> know what the majority of the community thinks about these issues. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist : yes, people do not care, like we saw at the last >> session on Tuesday, that only a handful read the AP. I guess the >> majority is happy, but that is difficult to double-check, people do >> not go on the mailing list only to say that they are happy. Next year >> at the RIPE Meeting in May, the NCC will give more insight on the >> budget & AP and there will be more time for comment before the Annual >> Meeting 3 months later. >> >> Axel Pawlik: The level of detail we give in the financial report, >> question is: how deep should we go into detail? For the trainings yes, >> not so difficult. I will work together with the Board to see what we >> can adapt. And I would like to clarify that the IRT is not really an >> incident response team, it is not a separate team as such. It is an >> activity. >> >> Hank Nussbacher : let's say that the TTM group costs a 300.000 >> euros/year, but we can get the same service from a commercial >> company. Why not do a market survey before introducing a new activity? >> >> Axel Pawlik: About the TTM, there is a lot of info about it in the AP. >> >> Daniel Karrenberg: I worry because of economic problems. Training, if >> the membership wants more transparency, OK, but whether it is really >> necessary? Why train New LIRs, what do I care? As one of the persons >> who started with these trainings, I would like to clarify that they >> are not done only for the benefit of the trainee, but to the whole >> community as well. Creating a well oiled community. The better things >> work, the less interaction at the NCC. Also, the NCC would not be as >> accepted without trainings. For many people, it is only by attending >> the courses that they understand and accept the NCC's role. Just >> looking at it from a financial point of view, if you do that too much, >> you might risk the NCC as a whole organisation. You want and need the >> NCC to be more stable than the rest of the members. The impact of the >> NCC crumbling is a whole lot different. I also would like to remind >> people that one of the ways for us to ensure impartiality and >> neutrality is by hiring international staff, this is expensive. Were >> we to be driven only by financials, we would not hire from Turkey or >> Africa. Yes, lets have a look at the financials, but lets us not be >> driven by it. Because it might be good for today, but not for >> tomorrow. >> >> Kurtis Lindqvist: I agree, but showing the members the budget is not >> saying that you are doing things bad. There are 2 issues: >> 1) transparency on costs and >> 2) evaluation of activities and how they benefit the community. >> >> Hank Nussbacher: Some services are excellent. But whether it benefits >> the community that someone goes to all the ICANN Meetings, it is >> needed, but the members might think it is not. In the same way that >> the Membership would live, accept to still have mail-from auth, but we >> have it better. >> >> Kurt Kayser (N-IX Nurnberg Internet eXchange) : About the trainings, a >> while back I proposed to find partners in countries, we could offer >> the service to train people in German, since we are very familiar with >> all the policies & procedures. But I never heard anything about this >> from the NCC. >> >> Axel Pawlik : We are looking at better ways of doing our >> trainings. People like our trainings but it does not scale, your >> proposal does scale. But how do we do it, how is that training >> standardised, do we need to certify trainers ??? But we are definitely >> looking at it. >> >> Daniel Bovio (RIPE NCC Board): Hank said that the "silent majority" do >> not care to show up at meetings, or communicate on the >> mailing-list. This is a problem, they do not know what the activities >> are. We, the RIPE Community, have always been the main source for >> ideas to the NCC and their activities. The Board needs to go on with >> these activities anyway, try to involve members, find out what they >> want, the survey was good in this respect. This group is the main >> source of the main ideas, there is a vast group that don't care, >> others do and those end up leading were the ship is going. We do not >> get enough feedback. >> >> Kurtis: Thank you all for coming >> >> FINISH >> >> NO ACTIONS >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RIPE 46 -minutes NCC Services.doc Type: application/msword Size: 64512 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/attachments/20030930/8ec8920c/attachment.doc> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 174 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/attachments/20030930/8ec8920c/attachment.sig>
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