[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

Hi,
I would like to put some additional perspective into James Palmer analogy about electricity.
Up to 2012 RIPE distributed and managed 41 /8 pool allocations between 8000 LIRs. Over last 11 years 16 000 LIRs joined RIPE and received allocations from 185/8 and some recycled IP address space, but for the sake of simplicity, since pre 2012 members also received some of these allocations, I will assume that these 16 000 LIRs were assigned 16 777 216 addresses (we can easily verify that statistically they were assigned about 1000 IP addresses, so definitely new assignment policy worked). We can easily calculate that with the fee of 1550 EUR they contribute 24 800 000 EUR into the RIPE budget which is 2/3 of total membership fees income and more than half of planned 40 000 000 EUR budget for 2023. Yet they use only 41/42*100 = 2,4% of total IPv4 resources managed by RIPE.
I would like CEO Holen and CFO Haytink to answer to us - majority that funds them, why they want us to pay more.

TLDR: 2/3 of budget income comes from those who use only 2,4% of RIPE IPv4 address space
Best regards,
Łukasz Jarosz

On mar 10 2023, at 1:39 pm, Josh Jameson <josh at servebyte.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Łukasz,
>
> After speaking with you privately I would like to defend the IP recycling point. Regardless of private sale or recycling of IP blocks, I believe it would have a positive impact on the availability of IPv4 space.
> https://www.ripe.net/analyse/statistics/number-of-lirs
> As you can see from the graph, no more IPv4 means we have stagnated with member count. IMHO as a business man, there is very little reason to join RIPE as a LIR if you can't get a single IPv4 block included in your membership fee. Which as it stands today, is true. The wait list is a joke for new members. So that leaves registering through a LIR and paying the LIR for services, instead of RIPE directly.
> I propose removing the upper cap of 8,000 euros for a Category 5 LIR.
> Supply and demand will reduce the resale value of IPv4 blocks. This means it may not make financial sense to hoard IPv4 blocks an org isn't using. It will generate an incentive to resell or recycle IP blocks instead of hoarding them for no penalty, which is the current RIPE fee structure. The possibility to acquire more IPv4 space in RIPE becomes a possibility again - perhaps have a scheme where if someone recycled a block, they get priority to claim back in the future.
> As far as I'm concerned Category 5 isn't where fees should even start to end. Everyone should be paying for their fair share. If RIPE's budget hits 50 million, fine - let's get IPv6 actually switched over with that money.
> Regards,
> Josh Jameson
> Technical Director
> ServeByte Ltd
>
>
>
>
>
> On 09/03/2023 20:24, Łukasz Jarosz wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I always liked math so after reading this whole topic I decided to do some.
> > I reviewed Ivaylo calculations and adjusted them to simply divide RIPE budget of 40mil and divided it by RIPE operated/owned IP space size and I came to price of 0,06EUR per IPv4 address (which is very little compared to fees for static IP space that most of the big telecoms charge).
> > Thus according to this calculations to evenly contribute to RIPE budget:
> > my small LIR announcing 3072 IPv4 addresses should be paying 184,32 EUR
> >
> > Daniel Pearsons (hoarding - as was called by Josh Jameson ) LIR should be paying 4024,32 EUR
> >
> > Josh Jameson's AS60751 should be paying 107,52 EUR
> >
> > Deutsche Telecom AS3320 (assuming that all of its announced IPv4 space belongs to RIPE region) according to bgp.he.net announces 34 109 952 IPv4 address thus should contribute 2 046 597,12 EUR
> >
> > Orange Poland AS5617 (that's not their only one ASN :wink wink:) according to bgp.he.net announces 5 510 400 IPv4 addresses thus should contribute 330 624 EUR
> >
> >
> >
> > I can go on like this for a while about another organizations, but I hope you get the picture, that argumentation that financial incentives will help IPv4 recycling is complete SCAM AND LIE.
> > Furthermore let's make another calculation. In Poland average price per ISP service is about 12 EUR per month which adds up to 144 EUR per year. So I can make 442 368 EUR per year out of this IPv4 space. Thus in model 1 and 2 my prognosed current fee of 2050 EUR is about 0,4% of my yearly revenue. Let's take as example Deutsche Telekom, which according to random google search last year [1] had revenue of about 114 400 000 000 EUR. We can easily calculate that their current fee of 2050 EUR (assuming only their ASN in model 1) is 1,79e-6 % of their revenue. That's over 200 000 times less. Even with my previously calculated 2 046 496,12 EUR fee that is only 0,001% of their revenue. Now it would be only 20 times smaller revenue percentage.
> > Regardless of this offtopic analysis, I really want to put stress on three points:
> > Calling any of these charging models fair and aimed at helping recycling IPv4 is outrageous insult and lie.
> >
> > I hope that finally we as community realise that RIPE funding scheme heavily favours big resource holders and this need to change.
> >
> > Only sustainable solution for IPv4 address space usage is to finally move to IPv6 where resources is enough for everyone everytime .
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Lukasz Jarosz
> >
> > [1] https://www.telekom.com/en/investor-relations/publications/financial-results/financial-results-2022
> >
> > On mar 9 2023, at 3:38 pm, Kaj Niemi <kajtzu at basen.net> (mailto:kajtzu at basen.net) wrote:
> > > Considering the 2023 budget [1, page 6] is a round 40M EUR, you are willing to add 9.6M EUR extra just like that?
> > >
> > >
> > > Kaj
> > >
> > > [1] https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> (mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net) On Behalf Of ivaylo
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 14:21
> > > To: members-discuss at ripe.net (mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net)
> > > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > > Nor scheme 1 nor scheme 2 are good and fair. Scheme 2 is litle step in the
> > > right direction but still far from from what must be.
> > >
> > > By IANA public documents delegated resources to RIPE are:
> > > 688128 IPV4 /22 blocks
> > > 2131972 IPV6 /32 blocks
> > > 42882 ASN
> > >
> > > By official data RIPE LIRs are 22500
> > > If constant yearly fee for each LIR is 300 euro, and charge 15 EURO for
> > > each block and ASN the LIRs holds (on /22 IPV4, /32 IPV6, and 1 ASN)
> > >
> > > RIPE will collect:
> > > 22500 * 300 = 6 750 000 EURO
> > > (688128+2131972+42882)*15 = 42 944 730 EURO
> > >
> > > SUM: 49 694 730 EURO (nearly 50 milions)
> > > Which seems more than enough RIPE to function normally !
> > > On yearly basis RIPE can revisit member taxes depending if are collected
> > > more or less money and to ask for increase of constant LIR taxes (300 euro)
> > > or to return back money to LIRs (as RIPE done it up to 2021)
> > >
> > > That will be fair charging scheme for me. As more resources you hold, as
> > > bigger your organisation is, as more you have to pay.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ivaylo Josifov
> > > VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
> > > Varna, Bulgaria
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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