[members-discuss] Clarifications on NRO Letter to Mauritian Government

Dear Hans,

I appreciate your reply.

Whilst you have avoided directly answering my questions there is one thing
I have to point out which requires immediate clarification.

AFRINIC does not have a board and does not have a CEO, and a court
organized election is on the horizon.

So, at this moment, no one can legally speak on behalf of AFRINIC, no one
can take action for the institution of AFRINIC.

You and the NRO’s have claimed that the  (nonexistent) AFRINIC leadership
has requested you to interfere with judicial proceedings in a foreign
country. And again, in your reply that you said you will be "talking to
AFRINIC".

Whoever you are speaking with at AFRINIC does not have the legal rights to
speak for AFRINIC.  At this time, any previous leaders of AFRINIC or anyone
for that matter, protent to be AFRINIC or act as AFRINIC, is acting
unlawfully. You could have your 5 RIR's lawyers check that simple legal
fact out.

If I may, please let me repeat what has been repeated thousands of times by
almost everyone in the community; let the community decide, let the
election of AFRINIC happen so a democratic elected board can be
reconstituted to resolve the mess.

That is how bottom up works, that is how community driven works.

This mess will not be resolved by asking governmental bodies to appoint
directors of RIR, or by sending letters to violate AFRICAN country's
constitutional separation of power and making defamation claims against me
and my company. It will not be resolved by listening and taking
instructions from  impostors that pretend to be representing AFRINIC and
maybe trying to grasp the last bit of his/her power.

Resolution will be achieved by fair and transparent elections that everyone
can join, by having community voices heard and by recognizing the extremely
serious issues that need resolutions by the community.

Maybe, and I am not sure if it has ever occurred to you and others, the
reason why members win in court against AFRINIC--is because the courts
recognise the case and issues being put forward are valid in protecting the
interests of the members. Could it be that the current leadership in
AFRINIC are actually wrong and courts are doing their job to protect
member's interests?

It is a great shame that by seeming to support the previous leadership's
apparent refusal to have fair and open elections, are standing on the side
that is actually against the community's interest,

Thank you again for your response. In summary, please let the community fix
their issues with AFRINIC though open and transparent court proceedings and
a democratic election. You champion the rule of law and democracy in
Europe. Why should Africa be any different?

And please share details of the impostor that you have been talking to, I
believe the global RIR community would be keen to know.




On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 10:35 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph at ripe.net> wrote:

> Dear Lu,
>
> I am more than willing to give my thoughts on some aspects of this.
> However, there is little value to be had in repeatedly stating the RIPE NCC
> position or in debating the finer points of Mauritian law.
>
> Instead, I will simply say that I agree with the text in your emails that
> advocates for community-driven, bottom-up principles, and that a properly
> functioning Internet Number Registry System benefits our members and those
> of the other RIRs. These are areas where there seems to be common ground
> between us, and I hope they will guide your actions as you pursue your
> agenda.
>
> One famous mantra in our community is to "keep it simple". In a community
> of such diverse backgrounds and competing interests, keeping it simple is
> not just an abstract value but a practical means of allowing people to see
> the best outcomes and to make valuable contributions effectively.
>
> The situation around AFRINIC has become anything but simple. There are
> numerous court cases brought by several parties. New organisations have
> sprung up to push the agendas of different individuals and groups through a
> wide range of media. There are governance issues to be resolved at AFRINIC.
>
> In such an environment, missteps are likely to happen on all sides,
> leading to further noise. It is clear to me that the complexity itself is
> getting in the way of resolving matters to everyone's satisfaction.
>
> So I will not presume to advise you on how to conduct your affairs in a
> different RIR region. However, I will ask you to keep in mind this mantra
> as you pursue your interests. Keep it simple. Leave room for people to
> focus on resolving the issues at hand.
>
> Where I can be of assistance is in talking to AFRINIC and the other RIRs
> at the global level and making sure they are aware of the issues that you
> and others have raised here regarding the health of the Internet Number
> Registry System. This is obviously something that is important for us all.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hans Petter Holen
> Managing Director
> RIPE NCC
>
>
>
> On 22 Jul 2022, at 17:12, Heng Lu <h.lu at outsideheaven.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Hans:
>
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
>
> Members will be interested in your views on the recent revelation that
> suspended CEO of AFRINIC, Eddy, had sent a letter asking ATU to appoint
> directors for AFRINIC in an attempt to avoid member elect directors.  This
> plea, coupled with the NRO letter seeking diplomatic immunity for AFRINIC,
> begs the question why not just let all RIR join the ITU?
>
>
> You will got immunity from ITU or ATU or whichever governmental body that
> will appoint directors of RIR, and no member would ever be able to find
> justice in court.
>
>
> The recent events and actions of AFRINIC and other RIR  defies everything
> I, and some of the other members I was talking to,  learned in this
> community. It goes against everything, that the bottom up and community
> driven approach that Rob told me on my first day of RIPE meeting a decade
> ago.
>
>
> I hope to preserve the RIR system I grew up with. I hope you agree with
> that desire. At the end of the day, you were there when it was created and
> we need you to continue to fight for our independence from interference -
> regardless of where the requests for interference come from.
>
>
> With regards
>
>
> Lu
>
> On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 9:05 PM Hans Petter Holen <hph at ripe.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I will respond where I can, although the RIPE NCC cannot speak for
>> AFRINIC, and any statement on behalf of the NRO needs to be made jointly
>> with the other four RIRs.
>>
>> First, I would like to address the concerns about the language used in
>> the NRO letter to the Mauritian government. It was not written in a tone
>> that we would use under ordinary circumstances. The letter could have been
>> worded better in parts, and it obviously led to our message being
>> misconstrued. We take note of this and will do better in this regard.
>>
>> Further, some of you have expressed concerns that this letter was an
>> attempt by the NRO to interfere in the judicial processes of Mauritius.
>> However, this was not the intention. As I said in my previous email, we
>> simply wanted to lend weight to AFRINIC's request and help to ensure its
>> ability to provide services to its members. In no way do we believe it is
>> our place (or the NRO’s for that matter) to influence judicial processes in
>> a sovereign nation.
>>
>> Coming to the issue of “international status” for RIRs, this status can
>> mean different things under different jurisdictions. The RIPE NCC has not
>> requested "international status" from any Dutch or international body. What
>> such status might mean for AFRINIC would be for the Mauritian government to
>> evaluate. For the RIPE NCC, you, our members, are the ultimate governing
>> body, and any potential changes to our legal status would be made in
>> consultation with you.
>>
>> I agree fully with comments that the issues with AFRINIC's governance
>> need to be addressed and I want to reiterate that only the members of
>> AFRINIC and the Internet community in Africa can resolve them. We encourage
>> AFRINIC's members and community to contribute constructively to improve
>> this situation.
>>
>> All our efforts have been guided by the desire to support the stability
>> of the global RIR system, which as Lu correctly points out, is a global,
>> bottom-up, community-driven project. This is how the Internet has been
>> built and, we hope, will continue to be governed.
>>
>> Finally, this list is under moderation and we will continue to ensure
>> that all mails that are put through to the list abide by the code of
>> conduct.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Hans Petter Holen
>> Managing Director
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>>
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>
>
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