[members-discuss] Billing scheme

Allowing quarterly payments on a yearly fee in the past definitely *was* an "indulgency". It's nowhere in the billing schedule.


It was a "gift" , because at the start of the year you owe RIPE the complete annual fee to get membership for a year. If they let you pay in quarterly terms and you pay 1/4th of the fee at the start of the year,  you still get membership for a *year* (and NOT membership for only the 1st quarter). Therefore they are essentially loaning you (extending credit for) the other 3/4ths: 1/4th for 3 months, 1/4th for 6 months and the last 1/4th for 9 months.


They charge 0% interest, while at 6% yearly interest (about market rate) this would normally cost (5.25 2nd + 10.50 3rd + 15.75 4th) = €31.50. And that's not even including compound interest or inflation. The last 1/4th they get is worth less than the first 1/4th due to inflation, so offering quarterly payments was not free for RIPE; they were losing money on it.


So, in fact this service RIPE offered was paid for by *all* members, not just the members paying quarterly. This change also rules out the liability to RIPE of members that pay in terms and then go bankrupt during the year, leaving RIPE out the rest of the terms. Or otherwise don't pay, causing RIPE to have to pay for, or spend time on, collection.


Since RIPE only gets money from membership fees, in the end will be the members that will have to pay for everything that costs RIPE money. Depending on the number of LIRs, due to this change, the annual membership fee will probably go down for all of us, or we will get (more) back at the end of the year.


Why am I against quarterly payments? Obviously the subsidizing explained above, but more importantly: like you, many others don't seem to get that RIPE membership is *not* a pay-as-you-need subscription. It's a *yearly* membership fee. You owe the full year up front and then you get membership for a full year. This is completely separate from how many terms they let you pay the fee in.


While you (and others) seem to think that the membership fee is like a phone subscription, in fact its more like buying a singular thing like a car. Some dealers also offer car sales where you can pay in terms or the second half of the purchase price after 2 years (or something like that) with 0% interest. But this is not free for them, it's essentially a *discount* they're providing you (as you'd have to pay a bank interest if you had to loan the money for those terms or 2 years somewhere else, you save money, while the car dealer incurs a loss due to inflation).


You get to take the car home immediately and start using it, but that doesn't mean the car purchase has now turned into a pay-as-you-need subscription. Its the same w/ the RIPE membership: you pay for a singular thing; *one* service. That one single service is *one* year of RIPE membership, and you get to, and can, use it immediately.


The constant confusion about the difference and resulting complaints and accusations on this list are a nuisance and we can do without them. Clearly the option for payment in terms for a singular annual fee is too complex for some, especially for some with more than one LIR.


I'm sure RIPE has had to waste a lot of time explaining this over and over and over, as people have on this list as well. So, they removed the complexity so it saves RIPE and us on the list time, nuisance & money.


IMO RIPE shouldn't have acted like a bank in the first place.


I hope this explains it :)


--
Regards,
   Terrence Koeman, PhD/MTh/BPsy
      Darkness Reigns (Holding) B.V.

Please quote relevant replies.
Spelling errors courtesy of my 'smart'phone.
________________________________
From: Larisa Yurkina <ula at ripn.net>
Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2019 12:38
To: members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Billing scheme

Terrence Koeman пишет 08.01.2019 21:49: 

Hi, 
>>> In fact, it's made clear that the fees are an "annual payment" 
>> No, it's a fee every member pays per year. Show me where it's stated 
>> that we have to pay that in just one part. 
> Right here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/payment/ripe-ncc-billing-procedure-2019 
> 
> That agrees with the charging scheme, which says "[..] for 2019, the annual service fee per LIR account will remain at EUR 1,400". That's fully consistent with the billing procedure. 
> 
> It doesn't say there will be a quarterly fee of EUR 350, the fact that quarterly terms were possible in the past was a courtesy. So, *you* show *me* where it says they can't stop extending this courtesy that was never voted upon. 
I don't think that words like 'gift' and 'courtesy' are really siutable here. 
As a memeber i pay on time for services i get and do not need any indulgencies at all. 
I prefer quarterly payments, why not? They are more convenient to me. 
You prefer yearly, - fine, i whish you good luck and much success. 
But, how do my quarterly payments affect your yearly, I can't understand. 
Why you are against them? 

And some more. 
Why the Executive Board memebers or the RIPE NCC staff still keep silence inspite of this many-days discussion? 
If some of them could explain the reason of chanding the billing scheme i'd be grateful. 
Perhaps the reason is really very serious. 

Thank you. 

> 
>> In my employment contract they write XXXXX CHF "per year", but I get it 
>> paid out in 12 parts too.... 
> Then either your employer is free to change your salary to a quarterly or yearly payment whenever they feel like it too, or, what I'm guessing is more likely: Swiss law dictates that the payment of salaries is per month (for tax purposes or whatever) and so it's not necessary to specify it in your contract. Alternatively, some union contract or something similar arranges this and your employment contract incorporates it by reference. 
> 
> Whatever the case may be in Switzerland, in The Netherlands an employment contract will state that it's paid in 12 or 13 terms plus the day of the month it will be paid on (in addition to the yearly amount). 
> 
> Ask the HR department tomorrow if you can be paid per week instead and they'll explain to you where it's written that it has to be paid per month and not otherwise, because it's sure to be written somewhere. This also states quite matter-of-factly "Salaries in Switzerland are paid once a month": https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/salaries/29235700 
> 
> And, even if it isn't defined anywhere, the RIPE billing procedure is not your Swiss employment contract. So what's your point exactly? You feel RIPE should be bound to whatever law, rule, regulation or convention causes your salary to be paid per month? -.- 
> 
>>> Apparently, RIPE offers "payment options for members with cash flow 
>> limitations", so it seems that RIPE is willing to work with members for 
>> which this change is a problem. These members should contact RIPE directly 
>> to see what "payment options" are available to them 
>> 
>> It's a "transition plan" - that means, it's probably just for this year: 
> Yes, obviously the plan is to: 
> 
> a). require all new members to pay yearly, 
> b). require members opening additional LIRs to pay yearly, 
> so that: 
> c). all members pay yearly as soon as possible. 
> 
> Of course existing members can be surprised by the sudden change this year and may not be able to pay yearly immediately, hence a "transition" for them. But, next year they won't be surprised and they have a whole year to save & plan for the yearly payment. 
> 
>>> For members with only one LIR account, we will design a transition plan 
>>> for those with cash flow limitations and who therefore have difficulty 
>>> meeting the payment schedule. We will provide details about this in 
>>> January 2019. 
>> I expect the RIPE NCC to inform its members about their transition plans. 
> Well, then you're in luck, because they will inform their members in 
>>> January 2019. 
> It seems to me that to come to a reasonable transition policy they need insight into what problems members will have, and they're getting this insight now. 
> 
>>> ideally *before* complaining on this list. 
>> Please show me any complaint from my side? Thanks :-) 
> Well, are you a "member with cash flow limitations"? Because my full sentence addressed this only to "these" members (as a group), of which a few had already complained on this list. Not to you personally, as I had no way of knowing whether you belonged to this group or not. 
> 
> But besides that: 
> 
> complaint noun 
> com·​plaint | \kəm-ˈplānt  \ 
> 1 : expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction 
> 
>> Why are we able to vote about every single word which is inserted, 
>> changed or removed from any random document (document, not policy!), but 
>> we can't vote about such a big change which affects a lot of members? 
>> 
>> In my opinion this change should have been part of the charging scheme 
>> 2019 voting. 
> Seems like you're complaining about something to me. Or rather two things ^-^ 
>   
>> Also, the notice period (which included public holidays in many 
>> countries) was, in my opinion, ways too short. 
> If only there were some period for those that need it... to transition to yearly payments... Oh, right! A transition period of at least a year. Point me to the problem, thanks :-) 
> 


-- 
With respect, 

*Larisa Yurkina* 
RosNIIROS 
Internet Number Resources Group / Chief Manager 
l.yurkina at ripn.net <mailto:l.yurkina at ripn.net> / www.ripn.net <http://www.ripn.net> 
Т.: +7 495 737-0604 


_______________________________________________ 
members-discuss mailing list 
members-discuss at ripe.net 
https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss 
Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/terrence%40darkness-reigns.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/members-discuss/attachments/20190116/05eb8ee4/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature
Size: 4742 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/members-discuss/attachments/20190116/05eb8ee4/attachment.bin>