[members-discuss] R: Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents

Hello to everyone, it is the first time we write here but we really have a solution for that.
We have a remote digital signing Service that allow to digitally sign documents with low validity in Europe.
If properly sad "digital" sign is not required we can provide electronical sign, but I think that in this case a Digital Sign Will be required.
Is it sound interesting for you we are here to provide infromation and support during the trasformation of the process.

All the best
Roberto Minoletti
FIRMAREMOTA



-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Per conto di Janos Zsako
Inviato: lunedì 25 giugno 2018 07.59
A: Aleksey Bulgakov <aleksbulgakov at gmail.com>
Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
Oggetto: Re: [members-discuss] Request to update the SSA - Article 2.2, acceptance of documents

Dear Aleksey,

Are you suggesting to set up an LIR without having a proper contract between the NCC and the future Member? By proper contract I mean a paper based contract with a handwritten signature or an electronic contract with an at least advanced electronic signature. I would definitely recommend against the NCC doing this.

Please note that Article 2.2. of the SSA also asks for "A recent extract from the Commercial Trade Register or equivalent document proving the registration of the Member with the national authorities." This can be easily checked on-line in many countries, but I think a paper document (or electronic document with an appropriate digital signature) is indeed important in all other cases.

Best regards,
Janos Zsako

> So what do you think about, if the NCC have the SSA in digital format and new members will check the checkbox during registration? It helps to save over 300 euro per account without the paper work.
> 
> пн, 30 Апр 2018 г., 8:45 William <william at william.si <mailto:william at william.si>>:
> 
>     __
>     RIPE does not really do this, they will send the documents also to a secondary address (not the LIR or company address).
> 
>     This verifies *some* address, but not *the* address.
> 
> 
>     --
>     William Weber
>     Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, 
> Croatia
> 
>     https://ip6.im <https://ip6.im/> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.
> 
> 
>     On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 07:40, Marcel Edler (Optimate-Server.de) <medler at optimate-server.de <mailto:medler at optimate-server.de>> wrote:
> 
>         I think RIPE sending the membership documents in a letter, because they
>         use it also to verify the address.
> 
>         You can fake everything, the company papers and all. I dont think the
>         RIPE checking this informations in local country registers.
> 
>         To fake a address is not that easy possible I would say...
> 
>         There are still many companys they send you a code by letter to verify
>         the address.
> 
>         Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>         Marcel Edler
>         Geschäftsinhaber
> 
>         Optimate-Server
>         EM Koddes 1
>         52531 Übach-Palenberg
>         Germany
>         Tel.: 06104 / 9722141
>         Fax: 06104 / 9722142
>         Mobil: 0177 / 83 55 499
>         eMail: medler at optimate-server.de <mailto:medler at optimate-server.de>
>         Internet: http://www.optimate-server.de
> 
>         Am 25.04.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Janos Zsako:
> 
>             Dear Tom,
> 
>                 Can you please clarify, why it is that you think email is appropriate
>                 for digitally signed documents, not paper based documents signed by
>                 hand, scanned and sent by e-mail?
> 
> 
> 
>             I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in case of a litigation a
>             digitally
>             signed document is usually accepted by the court as evidence with much
>             higher
>             confidence than a scanned document. One of the roles of the digital
>             signature
>             is to ensure non-repudiation. A valid signature usually proves who
>             signed the
>             document (usually through a certificate issued by a trusted CA) and it
>             also
>             proves that the document has not been changed since. If it also
>             contains a
>             qualified time stamp, then you can also know for sure the document
>             existed in
>             this form at that time.
> 
>                 I stand corrected on fax use, I had no idea it was still growing!
>                 Although, I think the demographic of ISPs may have lower than average
>                 fax usage. Our company have a fax simply because some customers do,
>                 we would not choose to fax or post over email unless it was
>                 absolutely necessary.
> 
> 
> 
>             Well, we cancelled the company fax a couple of years ago. 
> :)
> 
>                 I suppose you could consider fax or post more secure than email, but
>                 I'm not too sure how valid that argument is.
> 
> 
> 
>             Post and original (signed) documents are definitely more secure than fax
>             or (digitally not signed) e-mail. In case of the fax, I tend to agree
>             with you,
>             but there was a time, in Hungary at least, when courts did accept fax
>             as evidence,
>             while e-mail was usually not accepted. The judges were of the
>             (probably wrong)
>             opinion that fax is more difficult to forge than e-mail.
> 
>             Best regards,
>             Janos
> 
>                 Kind Regards,
>                 Tom Corney
> 
> 
> 
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