From daniel.kleeman at bridgepartners.co.uk Sat May 10 00:09:13 2014 From: daniel.kleeman at bridgepartners.co.uk (Daniel Kleeman) Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 22:09:13 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] RIPE 24/7 emergency contact needed Akamai In-Reply-To: <4FD9A898.30403@speedpartner.de> References: <4fd91cf0d29d8f5b7002cbe7670.jorgen@ssc.net>, <300D7A986F21FC488C88D880357129AB042F1CF9@EXCHANGE1.exc.erdenreich.net> <4FD99F4B.2090809@serverplan.com> <4FD9A2A2.50302@smartspb.net>,<4FD9A898.30403@speedpartner.de> Message-ID: <49C6446B-2C74-4356-A698-05435CD79D3A@bridgepartners.co.uk> Sent from my mobile > On 14 Jun 2012, at 11:52, "Stefan Neufeind, SpeedPartner" wrote: > >> On 06/14/2012 10:36 AM, Dennis Yusupoff wrote: >> >> 14.06.2012 12:22, Giuseppe Tanzilli - Serverplan ???????: >>> Anyway I think we must ask RIPE NCC for a H24 techical phone number for >>> events like this, >>> every provider has an H24 service for issues of this magnitude. >>> >>> It is not acceptable that ripe ncc, does not have one. >> +1, good idea. > > I expect they already have some kind of "noc"? > > Imagine what might happen if people really start to use > ressource-certification (I personally don't like the idea behind those > signatures) and on a Friday the whole internet goes down because all > routes from the RIPE-region are invalid .-) > > > Kind regards, > Stefan Neufeind > > PS: This is just my personal opinion, not necessarily the one of my > employer. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From noc at green.ch Thu May 22 14:19:36 2014 From: noc at green.ch (_Network Operation Center (NOC)) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 12:19:36 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Request to amend the RIPE NCC Articles of Association Message-ID: <0B6DCA0DECEE2143A4FD33DD8DA96C260983A49F@EX01.green-connection.ch> Hello everybody, as a result of last weeks AGM and an intense discussion on the voting procedure I would like to request the Executive Board to put forward a resolution for the next General Meeting to abandon paper ballot voting. Reasoning: I inadvertently registered for electronic voting instead of paper ballot voting. By the time I realized my mistake I found out that the BigPulse electronic voting had already been set up and I couldn't change anymore. Then, after the AGM on Wednesday I actually was grateful, not having to make a choice in a matter of minutes, in order to turn in the paper ballots. I was also grateful that electronic voting only started at the end of Wednesdays AGM session, effectively preventing prematurely turned in votes. Not only took it some time and consideration putting six candidates in a row of preference. To make a good choice it was also essential to listen what each candidate had to say. I had enough time to sleep over it, talk to others, and re-read documents considering what had been said. This all added to a much more reflected vote. This also eases a number of things: Proxy Votes: No paper necessary anymore-register for electronic voting and forward the registration confirmation (which then should already contain the link to access the poll) to your proxy. Counting paper ballots: This is a manual process by which the cast paper ballots get entered into the same electronic voting system that the electronically cast votes end up in. With 5 resolutions plus 6 candidates times 119 paper ballots and a 4 (or more) eyes verification this takes hours of possibly error-prone monotony. That said, with the significant increase in the number of registered voters that the possibility to vote electronically and remotely stimulated, the possibility to vote by show of hands or acclamation seems at least questionable to me, since this would exclude the remote participants. This should be dropped as well. Best regards, Ulf Kieber Head of NOC green.ch AG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 08:55:16 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 07:55:16 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Message-ID: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private companies like www.maxmind.com do not have to adhere to the data that?s officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty databases to thousands of websites. Jared Twyler Chief Executive Officer IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. Skype: iaps_support FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store From datos at tvt-datos.es Wed May 28 10:10:11 2014 From: datos at tvt-datos.es (Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:10:11 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> Hi Jared, What do you mean exactly? MaxMind != RIR MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP Address. Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing. Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database? I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind updated it. Best Regards, El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin at intl-alliance.com escribi?: > Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: > > What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private > companies like www.maxmind.com do not have to adhere to the data that?s > officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private > companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on > information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on > with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can > completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty databases > to thousands of websites. > > Jared Twyler > Chief Executive Officer > IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. > Skype: iaps_support > FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp > Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com > Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observaci?n de Red Dpto. Internet y Telefon?a Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966190565 WEB: http://www.tvt.es Correo: datos at tvt-datos.es --AVISO LEGAL-- En cumplimiento de la Ley Org?nica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de protecci?n de datos de car?cter personal, se pone en conocimiento del destinatario del presente correo electr?nico, que los datos incluidos en este mensaje, est?n dirigidos exclusivamente al citado destinatario cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es la persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de env?o y se abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a borrarlo de inmediato. Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y especificaci?n de los mismos, derechos que podr? hacer efectivos dirigi?ndose a Televisi?n Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante). From bteunis at a2b-internet.com Wed May 28 10:16:13 2014 From: bteunis at a2b-internet.com (Bart Teunis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:16:13 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <14598889.aGX0LLFECK@a2b-internet.com> Jared, might that be a lack of knowledge from the private companies ?? Bart On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 07:55:16 AM admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: > > What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private > companies like www.maxmind.com do not have to adhere to the data that?s > officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private > companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on > information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on > with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can > completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty databases > to thousands of websites. > > Jared Twyler > Chief Executive Officer > IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. > Skype: iaps_support > FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp > Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com > Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general > page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, > you can add or remove addresses. From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 10:30:38 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 09:30:38 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> Message-ID: I have already gone through the process of informing them, using their corrections form on their website, and pleading with them to update their database. For years, this worked just fine. They used to be a very cooperative company. Starting last week, they began marking huge sections of my ip addresses as anonymous proxies and completely removing any country information from them. Then these inaccuracies were then sold to all their clients and now sections of my ip ranges are all screwed up now and as a direct result of that, I lose business in my line of work. Here is the response I received from them after a very long email to them: Dear Mr. Twyler, As you're aware, we endeavor to provide accurate IP geolocation of Internet end-users and to identify proxies where possible in our IP intelligence products. We may not accept corrections to our data where we believe they do not increase the accuracy of our IP geolocation or improve proxy identification. If you'd like to communicate with our legal counsel, we invite you to email legal at maxmind.com. Regards, Jason Ketola V.P., Operations This response would have been tolerable had I been a proxy supplier. However I am not. And this company is completely unwilling to reconsider my case, even though I've informed them that they are causing me a massive loss of business by doing this. On 2014-05-28 09:10, Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca wrote: > Hi Jared, > > What do you mean exactly? > MaxMind != RIR > > MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP > Address. > Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing. > > Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database? > > I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind updated > it. > > Best Regards, > > El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin at intl-alliance.com escribi?: >> Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: >> >> What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private >> companies like www.maxmind.com do not have to adhere to the data >> that?s >> officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private >> companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on >> information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on >> with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can >> completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty >> databases >> to thousands of websites. >> >> Jared Twyler >> Chief Executive Officer >> IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. >> Skype: iaps_support >> FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp >> Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com >> Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > -- > Daniel Baeza > Centro de Observaci?n de Red > Dpto. Internet y Telefon?a > Television Costa Blanca S.L. > Telf. 966190565 > WEB: http://www.tvt.es > Correo: datos at tvt-datos.es > > --AVISO LEGAL-- > > En cumplimiento de la Ley Org?nica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de > protecci?n de datos de car?cter personal, se pone en conocimiento del > destinatario del presente correo electr?nico, que los datos incluidos > en este mensaje, est?n dirigidos exclusivamente al citado destinatario > cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es la > persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de env?o y se > abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en > el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a > borrarlo de inmediato. > Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos > en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, > comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted > dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y > especificaci?n de los mismos, derechos que podr? hacer efectivos > dirigi?ndose a Televisi?n Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 > Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante). > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. From sozsekerci at esertelekom.com Wed May 28 10:31:24 2014 From: sozsekerci at esertelekom.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Sinan_=C3=96z=C5=9Fekerci?=) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:31:24 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> Message-ID: <015b01cf7a4f$36954130$a3bfc390$@esertelekom.com> Hi All, I have to agree with Jared to some degree. It's been months since I updated the geolocation attribute in the RIPE db, but maxmind is still distributing a totally irrelevant location info. Regards Sinan -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 11:10 AM To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Hi Jared, What do you mean exactly? MaxMind != RIR MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP Address. Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing. Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database? I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind updated it. Best Regards, El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin at intl-alliance.com escribi?: > Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: > > What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if private > companies like www.maxmind.com do not have to adhere to the data > that?s officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private > companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on > information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue on > with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can > completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty > databases to thousands of websites. > > Jared Twyler > Chief Executive Officer > IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. > Skype: iaps_support > FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp > Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com > Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Daniel Baeza Centro de Observaci?n de Red Dpto. Internet y Telefon?a Television Costa Blanca S.L. Telf. 966190565 WEB: http://www.tvt.es Correo: datos at tvt-datos.es --AVISO LEGAL-- En cumplimiento de la Ley Org?nica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de protecci?n de datos de car?cter personal, se pone en conocimiento del destinatario del presente correo electr?nico, que los datos incluidos en este mensaje, est?n dirigidos exclusivamente al citado destinatario cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es la persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de env?o y se abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a borrarlo de inmediato. Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y especificaci?n de los mismos, derechos que podr? hacer efectivos dirigi?ndose a Televisi?n Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante). ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 10:43:59 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 09:43:59 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> Message-ID: <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. On 2014-05-28 09:33, Edward Dore wrote: > Have you asked them why they believe the IP address space in question > is being used to run open/anonymous proxy servers? > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 09:30, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > >> I have already gone through the process of informing them, using >> their >> corrections form on their website, and pleading with them to update >> their database. For years, this worked just fine. They used to be a >> very >> cooperative company. Starting last week, they began marking huge >> sections of my ip addresses as anonymous proxies and completely >> removing >> any country information from them. Then these inaccuracies were then >> >> sold to all their clients and now sections of my ip ranges are all >> screwed up now and as a direct result of that, I lose business in my >> >> line of work. Here is the response I received from them after a very >> >> long email to them: >> >> Dear Mr. Twyler, >> >> As you're aware, we endeavor to provide accurate IP geolocation of >> Internet end-users and to identify proxies where possible in our IP >> intelligence products. We may not accept corrections to our data >> where >> we believe they do not increase the accuracy of our IP geolocation >> or >> improve proxy identification. >> If you'd like to communicate with our legal counsel, we invite you >> to >> email legal at maxmind.com. >> >> Regards, >> Jason Ketola >> V.P., Operations >> >> This response would have been tolerable had I been a proxy supplier. >> >> However I am not. And this company is completely unwilling to >> reconsider >> my case, even though I've informed them that they are causing me a >> massive loss of business by doing this. >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:10, Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca wrote: >> Hi Jared, >> >> What do you mean exactly? >> MaxMind != RIR >> >> MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP >> Address. >> Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing. >> >> Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database? >> >> I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind >> updated >> it. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin at intl-alliance.com escribi?: >> Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: >> >> What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if >> private >> companies like www.maxmind.com [1] do not have to adhere to the data >> >> that?s >> officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private >> companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on >> information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue >> on >> with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can >> completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty >> databases >> to thousands of websites. >> >> Jared Twyler >> Chief Executive Officer >> IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. >> Skype: iaps_support >> FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp [2] >> Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com [3] >> Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store [4] >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC >> members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> -- >> Daniel Baeza >> Centro de Observaci?n de Red >> Dpto. Internet y Telefon?a >> Television Costa Blanca S.L. >> Telf. 966190565 >> WEB: http://www.tvt.es [6] >> Correo: datos at tvt-datos.es >> >> --AVISO LEGAL-- >> >> En cumplimiento de la Ley Org?nica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de >> protecci?n de datos de car?cter personal, se pone en conocimiento >> del >> destinatario del presente correo electr?nico, que los datos >> incluidos >> en este mensaje, est?n dirigidos exclusivamente al citado >> destinatario >> cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es >> la >> persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de env?o y se >> abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en >> el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a >> borrarlo de inmediato. >> Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos >> en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, >> comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted >> dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y >> especificaci?n de los mismos, derechos que podr? hacer efectivos >> dirigi?ndose a Televisi?n Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 >> Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante). >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC >> members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.maxmind.com > [2] http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp > [3] http://www.jareds-blog.com > [4] http://www.intl-alliance.com/store > [5] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > [6] http://www.tvt.es From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 10:50:25 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 09:50:25 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> Message-ID: What makes matters even worse, is that last month in late April I received a last thousand ip address allocation from RIPE. I didn't even route it/announce it until this past week. I haven't even deployed this new range yet and already Maxmind has it all marked as anonymous proxies. And this is on a brand new allocation that hasn't even been deployed yet to any one. On 2014-05-28 09:42, Edward Dore wrote: > Have you asked them why they believe the IP address space in question > is being used to run open/anonymous proxy servers? > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 09:30, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > >> I have already gone through the process of informing them, using >> their >> corrections form on their website, and pleading with them to update >> their database. For years, this worked just fine. They used to be a >> very >> cooperative company. Starting last week, they began marking huge >> sections of my ip addresses as anonymous proxies and completely >> removing >> any country information from them. Then these inaccuracies were then >> >> sold to all their clients and now sections of my ip ranges are all >> screwed up now and as a direct result of that, I lose business in my >> >> line of work. Here is the response I received from them after a very >> >> long email to them: >> >> Dear Mr. Twyler, >> >> As you're aware, we endeavor to provide accurate IP geolocation of >> Internet end-users and to identify proxies where possible in our IP >> intelligence products. We may not accept corrections to our data >> where >> we believe they do not increase the accuracy of our IP geolocation >> or >> improve proxy identification. >> If you'd like to communicate with our legal counsel, we invite you >> to >> email legal at maxmind.com. >> >> Regards, >> Jason Ketola >> V.P., Operations >> >> This response would have been tolerable had I been a proxy supplier. >> >> However I am not. And this company is completely unwilling to >> reconsider >> my case, even though I've informed them that they are causing me a >> massive loss of business by doing this. >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:10, Dpto. Datos Television Costa Blanca wrote: >> Hi Jared, >> >> What do you mean exactly? >> MaxMind != RIR >> >> MaxMind is only a company who sell geolocation services based on IP >> Address. >> Being member of a RIR is a completely different thing. >> >> Also, whats wrong on the maxmind geo database? >> >> I have updated several IP blocks on Ripe Database and maxmind >> updated >> it. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> El 28/05/2014 8:55, admin at intl-alliance.com escribi?: >> Here is a question I propose to all RIPE NCC LIR members: >> >> What is the point in remaining a LIR member of the RIPE NCC if >> private >> companies like www.maxmind.com [1] do not have to adhere to the data >> >> that?s >> officially published in the NCC ip address database? If private >> companies are allowed to produce their own ip databases based on >> information not obtained in the official NCC database, why continue >> on >> with membership here? It seems pointless if a private company can >> completely ignore a LIR database, produce and then sell faulty >> databases >> to thousands of websites. >> >> Jared Twyler >> Chief Executive Officer >> IAPS Security Services, L.L.C. >> Skype: iaps_support >> FB: http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp [2] >> Blog: http://www.jareds-blog.com [3] >> Web: http://www.intl-alliance.com/store [4] >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC >> members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> -- >> Daniel Baeza >> Centro de Observaci?n de Red >> Dpto. Internet y Telefon?a >> Television Costa Blanca S.L. >> Telf. 966190565 >> WEB: http://www.tvt.es [6] >> Correo: datos at tvt-datos.es >> >> --AVISO LEGAL-- >> >> En cumplimiento de la Ley Org?nica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre de >> protecci?n de datos de car?cter personal, se pone en conocimiento >> del >> destinatario del presente correo electr?nico, que los datos >> incluidos >> en este mensaje, est?n dirigidos exclusivamente al citado >> destinatario >> cuyo nombre aparece en el encabezamiento, por lo que si usted no es >> la >> persona interesada rogamos nos comunique el error de env?o y se >> abstenga de realizar copias del mensaje o de los datos contenidos en >> el mismo o remitirlo o entregarlo a otra persona, procediendo a >> borrarlo de inmediato. >> Asimismo le informamos que sus datos de correo han quedado incluidos >> en nuestra base de datos a fin de dirigirle, por este medio, >> comunicaciones comerciales, profesionales e informativas y que usted >> dispone de los derechos de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y >> especificaci?n de los mismos, derechos que podr? hacer efectivos >> dirigi?ndose a Televisi?n Costa Blanca, S.L., C/ San Policarpo 41 >> Bajo. C.P: 03181 Torrevieja (Alicante). >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC >> members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [5] > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://www.maxmind.com > [2] http://www.facebook.com/iapscorp > [3] http://www.jareds-blog.com > [4] http://www.intl-alliance.com/store > [5] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > [6] http://www.tvt.es From alfredo at solucionesdinamicas.net Wed May 28 10:52:34 2014 From: alfredo at solucionesdinamicas.net (Alfredo Sola) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:52:34 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: > That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've > spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies > over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up > entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies > period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And > vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are > totally different. I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. -- Alfredo Sola http://www.tecnocratica.net/ From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 11:02:33 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:02:33 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies >> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And >> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are >> totally different. > > I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry > or IP problem. > > What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. From marius at medianetworkservices.com Wed May 28 11:17:47 2014 From: marius at medianetworkservices.com (Jan Marius Evang) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:17:47 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data? https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... Yours Jan Marius Evang Media Network Services AS44654 On 28. mai 2014, at 11:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >>> proxies >>> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And >>> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are >>> totally different. >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry >> or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the >> location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the >> location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other >> hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, >> or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to >> their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And >> they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but >> that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this >> has to do with RIPE. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From gert at space.net Wed May 28 11:42:08 2014 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:42:08 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <20140528094208.GN46558@Space.Net> Hi, On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 09:43:59AM +0100, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. From a geolocation point of view, this is the same thing: hiding the true location of the user, and as such, geolocation data for these addresses is meaningless. > And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are > totally different. For geolocation questions, the end result is the same thing. I think they did exactly what their customers are paying them for: providing accurate geolocation data where possible, and for services where people are making money by circumventing geolocation restrictions, they are now making this clear. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk Wed May 28 11:41:10 2014 From: ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk (Edward Dore) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:41:10 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: > "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >>> proxies >>> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And >>> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are >>> totally different. >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry >> or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the >> location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the >> location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other >> hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, >> or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to >> their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And >> they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but >> that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this >> has to do with RIPE. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthias.subik at ucnd.at Wed May 28 11:51:52 2014 From: matthias.subik at ucnd.at (=?windows-1252?Q?=22Mag=2E_Matthias_=8Aubik=22?=) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:51:52 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote: > Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data? > > https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 > > The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN IP-Numbers? As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that IP-block. This is what tv stations et. al. want from geolocation. Which might turn up the question that should have been asked in the first place: how do we deal in the future with a more and more internationalized internet, with user s demanding services as VPN/proxy, to reach content locked away behind an anachronistic geo filter? When I travel or work abroad, this doesn't mean I want to be locked out of stuff I look at every day, as in the pre-internet era. As a user, I don't care who promised what when signing a content deal, maybe 30 years ago. Matthias ps: this question is not to be answered here, as this would become off-topic. -- UCND United City Network Development GmbH Steingasse 23 1030 Wien, ?sterreich FN 188089b beim Handelsgericht Wien UID ATU 54974906 Mag. Matthias ?ubik Tel.: +43 676 83820-787 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4148 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 11:59:26 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 10:59:26 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <3d36b74287ed10b2b9583762f5682e51@intl-alliance.com> Matthias - I fully welcome this question to be asked and answered here. But let me state the obvious: the rules are created by a bunch of old men sitting around in closed door meetings thinking about how much money they can collect by limiting who can see what content and who cannot. Its trying to play God on the modern internet, which cannot really be done any more. The old men writing rules and laws are so out of touch with modern day society its sickening. On 2014-05-28 10:51, Mag. Matthias ?ubik wrote: > On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote: > >> Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data? >> >> https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 >> >> The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on >> the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... > > I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN > IP-Numbers? > As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to > provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other > data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that > IP-block. > > This is what tv stations et. al. want from geolocation. > Which might turn up the question that should have been asked in the > first place: how do we deal in the future with a more and more > internationalized internet, with user s demanding services as > VPN/proxy, to reach content locked away behind an anachronistic > geo filter? > When I travel or work abroad, this doesn't mean I want to be locked > out of stuff I look at every day, as in the pre-internet era. As a > user, I don't care who promised what when signing a content deal, > maybe 30 years ago. > > Matthias > ps: this question is not to be answered here, as this would become > off-topic. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. From antonio at prado.it Wed May 28 12:02:07 2014 From: antonio at prado.it (Antonio Prado) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:02:07 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <20140528094208.GN46558@Space.Net> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <20140528094208.GN46558@Space.Net> Message-ID: <5385B41F.4090108@prado.it> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 5/28/14, 11:42 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > I think they did exactly what their customers are paying them for Hi, what about RIPE Database Terms and Conditions, art. 4? http://www.ripe.net/data-tools/support/documentation/terms [...] "4. Users may not use the RIPE Database or the data contained therein for advertising, direct marketing, marketing research or similar purposes. 5. A User may not re-package, download, compile, re-distribute or re-use any or all of the RIPE Database or the data contained therein unless he does so only with an insubstantial part of the RIPE Database or the data contained therein or when permission to do so is granted by the RIPE NCC" [...] just asking thank you - -- antonio -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlOFtB8ACgkQJVX0I651yDusaACfVBoIuMCQL2pUdlYyr+5L/oY9 e5oAoMJGuMsXK9FaE6fUnVIzT8NEA/H/ =g+MW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sozsekerci at esertelekom.com Wed May 28 12:16:15 2014 From: sozsekerci at esertelekom.com (=?iso-8859-9?Q?Sinan_=D6z=FEekerci?=) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:16:15 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me. As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. Regards Sinan ?Z?EKERC? From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM To: admin at intl-alliance.com Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object: "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 12:35:39 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:35:39 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> References: "\"<681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com>" " <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center. How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward! On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: > I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a > private company's database and helping them to ?earn more money where > they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing > false information about them. > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first > place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of ?our IP subnets in > a "Village" which of the ?name is the same as our company just by > coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally > different city. > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these > "more specific" data is crap for me. > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect > them to rely on their own database which has the information that I > have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > Regards > > Sinan ?Z?EKERC? > > FROM: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore > SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > TO: admin at intl-alliance.com > CC: members-discuss at ripe.net > SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a > registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how > they can be contacted. > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, > but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be > more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE > database. > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the > "country" field in the "inetnum" object: > >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, > useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for > fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only > from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I > could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy > would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) > and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing > their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. > > MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from > multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data > derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which > is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind > database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for > corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no > obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to > reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for > any reason. > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and > thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is > useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. > Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their > database as accurate and up to date as possible. > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind > could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their > minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same > way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the > location and details of the end user. > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If > all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather > their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on > their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught > the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following > email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database > in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information > are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2] > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their >> inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw >> up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies >> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. >> And >> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they >> are >> totally different. > > ??????????? I think your issue is more a business model > problem than a registry > or IP problem. > > ??????????? What you are saying is that you depend on > Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > ??????????? So your business model depends on Maxmind > agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [3] > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://stat.ripe.net > [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > [3] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ From ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk Wed May 28 12:37:48 2014 From: ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk (Edward Dore) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:37:48 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: You don?t ?have to? do anything. They aren?t ?forcing" you to correct their data. I certainly can?t see how you can equate it to blackmail - they aren?t trying to extort money from you or threatening you in any way. This claim of somehow being blackmailed by a third party who have never even got in touch with you is essentially the same argument as put forward by people who don?t like being listed on spam RBLs. People are free to create databases of IP addresses and associated attributes based on their opinion and other people are free to use that database if they wish. There is no blackmail/extortion/defamation happening. We use the MaxMind GeoIP database and minFraud service and on the whole find it to be sufficiently accurate for our needs. If the level of accuracy of these services drops such that it starts to causes us problems, then we will stop using these services and MaxMind will have lost a customer, therefore it is in their best interests to keep the data as accurate as possible. Simple free market economics. Perhaps in your case MaxMind don?t have much/any data about your IP addresses and so are trying to guess the location based on the only data available to them - the RIPE database? It sounds like RIPE are using the MaxMind GeoIP database and API for their RIPEstat service and indeed they clearly state this next to the geographic data on the page. The RIPEstat service is completely separate to the RIPE database and can be used to view details about any IP address from any of the RIRs, not just those administered by RIPE. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: > I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these ?more specific? data is crap for me. > > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > > Regards > > Sinan ?Z?EKERC? > > > > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > To: admin at intl-alliance.com > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: > > "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. > > MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > > That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've > spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies > over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up > entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run > proxies > period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And > vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are > totally different. > > I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry > or IP problem. > > What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marius at medianetworkservices.com Wed May 28 12:42:55 2014 From: marius at medianetworkservices.com (Jan Marius Evang) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:42:55 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: On 28. mai 2014, at 11:51, Mag. Matthias ?ubik wrote: > On 28.05.2014, at 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote: > >> Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data? >> >> https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 >> >> The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... > > I'm not fully up with the rules, but wouldn't that need ARIN IP-Numbers? > As others have already stated, maxmind (and the geoloc-browser) try to provide where the USER behind an IP address is. If I have no other data, this is the language attribute of the browser coming from that IP-block. No, there are no rules concerning where the IP address blocks are actually used. But, I'll give you another example if that calms your mind. https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.96.193 Map says Oslo, Actual location is Amsterdam. (Registry browser frame is correct) Yours Jan Marius Evang Media Network Services AS44654 From ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk Wed May 28 12:49:46 2014 From: ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk (Edward Dore) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:49:46 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: "\"<681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com>" " <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: If you don?t like the MaxMind services or the services of those who use MaxMind data, then don?t use them and go elsewhere. No-one is forcing you to use MaxMind or their clients? I?m pretty sure I already theorised about your new IP address range in a previous message: > Without knowing the intimate details of how MaxMind work, I would guess that they have marked your company as a provider of open proxy servers due to detecting sufficient number of what they believe to be open proxy servers across IP address space allocated to you. > > Therefore, instead of marking individual IP addresses in their database as open proxy servers, they are applying this classification to all IP addresses allocated to your LIR, whether or not they have actually seen traffic consistent with what they believe to be an open proxy server originating from that space. > > That?s certainly what I would do if I ran any kind of IP address classification service, be it GeoIP and anti-fraud like MaxMind or anti-spam like Spamhaus etc. This is similar to how many anti-spam RBLs work - if you get enough instances in a /24, then you mark the whole /24. If you get enough /24s from the same allocation, then you mark the whole allocation or even the whole provider. Obviously it?s up to each list operator to determine their own thresholds based on what provides the desired level of accuracy for them. The RIPE allocations list is freely available at ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/stats/membership/alloclist.txt and the other RIRs publish similar lists. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:35, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. > > Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center. > > How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward! > > On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: >> I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >> private company's database and helping them to earn more money where >> they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >> false information about them. >> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in >> a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by >> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >> different city. >> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >> "more specific" data is crap for me. >> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect >> them to rely on their own database which has the information that I >> have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >> Regards >> Sinan ?Z?EKERC? >> FROM: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore >> SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >> TO: admin at intl-alliance.com >> CC: members-discuss at ripe.net >> SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >> they can be contacted. >> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >> database. >> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >> "country" field in the "inetnum" object: >>> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >>> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >>> countries" >> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, >> useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for >> fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only >> from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I >> could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy >> would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) >> and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing >> their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >> MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from >> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. >> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for >> any reason. >> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and >> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their >> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >> location and details of the end user. >> Edward Dore >> Freethought Internet >> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >> all >> ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they >> made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it >> would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather >> their >> information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on >> their >> own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip >> information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply >> stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than >> ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught >> the >> attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following >> email >> regarding this situation: >> Dear Jared, >> Thank you for your email. >> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >> resources. >> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile >> their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database >> in >> account. >> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >> are >> incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also >> the reputation of the providers of this data. >> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >> stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >> MaxMind. >> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2] >> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >> information in our own tools. >> -- >> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> Kind regards, >> Marco Schmidt >> RIPE NCC >> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their >>> inaccuracies >>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw >>> up >>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >>> proxies >>> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. >>> And >>> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they >>> are >>> totally different. >> I think your issue is more a business model >> problem than a registry >> or IP problem. >> What you are saying is that you depend on >> Maxmind providing the >> location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the >> location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other >> hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, >> or will mark the location as unknown. >> So your business model depends on Maxmind >> agreeing to provide to >> their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And >> they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but >> that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this >> has to do with RIPE. >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [3] >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] http://stat.ripe.net >> [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> [3] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gert at space.net Wed May 28 12:52:07 2014 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:52:07 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: <20140528105207.GR46558@Space.Net> Hi, On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:35:39AM +0100, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to > determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy > into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. This is the point: they *are* telling the world "we don't know where these users are". So what are you complaining about? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sander at steffann.nl Wed May 28 12:53:36 2014 From: sander at steffann.nl (Sander Steffann) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:53:36 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: Hello, > Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the > disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as > they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. > They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy > information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. As the discussion is getting completely off-topic for this list and the language used is getting worse and worse please take this discussion off-list. This is not the place to rant over some companies products... Thanks, Sander From h.lu at outsideheaven.com Wed May 28 13:00:43 2014 From: h.lu at outsideheaven.com (Lu Heng) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:00:43 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: i would agree it is not for the list....i mean end of the day, it is their opinion about something---in a world with freedom of speech, we really can not help in this case. even though they are complete wrong about us as well. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Sander Steffann wrote: > Hello, > >> Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the >> disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as >> they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. >> They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy >> information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. > > As the discussion is getting completely off-topic for this list and the language used is getting worse and worse please take this discussion off-list. This is not the place to rant over some companies products... > > Thanks, > Sander > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. From sozsekerci at esertelekom.com Wed May 28 13:10:16 2014 From: sozsekerci at esertelekom.com (=?iso-8859-9?Q?Sinan_=D6z=FEekerci?=) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 14:10:16 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: <01ec01cf7a65$68013970$3803ac50$@esertelekom.com> Of course they do not contact us directly and claim something. The point is, when they distribute false information about you and causing harm to you, they do not need to contact you directly. As the harmed side, you feel obliged to contact them and persuade them to fix this. Eventually you will be the one who spends time and effort, but they will be the profiting side. That why I used the word blackmailing as a metaphor. I respect the freedom of people to create such databases and I'm not against it. But there is no freedom to distribute content about some others, that cannot be verified to at least some degree, which means totally fabricated. If maximind wants to get on some correct data about our subnets, it easy for them, they only need to look at the RIPE database, since our subnets have the geoloc attributes set for months. Regards Sinan ?z?ekerci From: Edward Dore [mailto:ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 1:38 PM To: Sinan ?z?ekerci Cc: admin at intl-alliance.com; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members You don't "have to" do anything. They aren't "forcing" you to correct their data. I certainly can't see how you can equate it to blackmail - they aren't trying to extort money from you or threatening you in any way. This claim of somehow being blackmailed by a third party who have never even got in touch with you is essentially the same argument as put forward by people who don't like being listed on spam RBLs. People are free to create databases of IP addresses and associated attributes based on their opinion and other people are free to use that database if they wish. There is no blackmail/extortion/defamation happening. We use the MaxMind GeoIP database and minFraud service and on the whole find it to be sufficiently accurate for our needs. If the level of accuracy of these services drops such that it starts to causes us problems, then we will stop using these services and MaxMind will have lost a customer, therefore it is in their best interests to keep the data as accurate as possible. Simple free market economics. Perhaps in your case MaxMind don't have much/any data about your IP addresses and so are trying to guess the location based on the only data available to them - the RIPE database? It sounds like RIPE are using the MaxMind GeoIP database and API for their RIPEstat service and indeed they clearly state this next to the geographic data on the page. The RIPEstat service is completely separate to the RIPE database and can be used to view details about any IP address from any of the RIRs, not just those administered by RIPE. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company's database and helping them to earn more money where they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them. This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these "more specific" data is crap for me. As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. Regards Sinan ?Z?EKERC? From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM To: admin at intl-alliance.com Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted. MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the "country" field in the "inetnum" object: "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible. As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: Dear Jared, Thank you for your email. We value your concern about correct registration details for internet resources. However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in account. Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also the reputation of the providers of this data. And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from MaxMind. https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting information in our own tools. -- Thank you again for bring up this topic. Kind regards, Marco Schmidt RIPE NCC On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are totally different. I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry or IP problem. What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this has to do with RIPE. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk Wed May 28 12:37:45 2014 From: Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk (Bill Lewis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:37:45 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: hi, this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different country. The least this does is change their web pages to the language making it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service due to being outside the service coverage area. We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from our experience. It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting Maxmind etc.. Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising data? I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these databases with junk for the fun of it too.. -- Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?zs,ekerci wrote: > > I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a > private company's database and helping them to earn more money where > they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing > false information about them. > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first > place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a > "Village" which of the name is the same as our company just by > coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally > different city. > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these > "more specific" data is crap for me. > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect > them to rely on their own database which has the information that I > have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > Regards > > Sinan ?ZS,EKERCI. > > *From:*members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Edward Dore > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > *To:* admin at intl-alliance.com > *Cc:* members-discuss at ripe.net > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a > registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how > they can be contacted. > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, > but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be > more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the > "country" field in the "inetnum" object: > > "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot > therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses > to countries" > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, > useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for > fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only > from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I > could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy > would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) > and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing > their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. > > MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from > multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data > derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which > is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind > database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for > corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no > obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to > reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for > any reason. > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and > thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is > useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. > Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their > database as accurate and up to date as possible. > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind > could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their > minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same > way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the > location and details of the end user. > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com > wrote: > > > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we > are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > > That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've > spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies > over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up > entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run > proxies > period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And > vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are > totally different. > > > I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry > or IP problem. > > What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.lu at outsideheaven.com Wed May 28 13:24:01 2014 From: h.lu at outsideheaven.com (Lu Heng) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:24:01 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can do about it. but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for this kind of discussion about private business... On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis wrote: > hi, > > this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites such as > netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different country. > > The least this does is change their web pages to the language making it near > impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service due to being > outside the service coverage area. > > We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content > providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of Maxmind > are near impossible to gain any action out of from our experience. > > It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them then the > problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting Maxmind etc.. > > Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level country > data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising data? > > I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these databases > with junk for the fun of it too.. > > -- > Bill Lewis > Kijoma Broadband > > > > On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: > > I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private > company?s database and helping them to earn more money where they don?t > mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information > about them. > > > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place > and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a > ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, > and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. > > > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these ?more > specific? data is crap for me. > > > > > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them > to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control > on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > > > > > Regards > > > > Sinan ?Z?EKERC? > > > > > > > > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > To: admin at intl-alliance.com > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a > registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can > be contacted. > > > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but > they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more > specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. > > > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the > ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: > > > > "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be > used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" > > > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, > useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud > screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE > database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the > information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly > reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for > people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE > database to contain false information. > > > > MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from multiple > sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from > multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. > > > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why > if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is > inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind > will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections > submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are > inaccurate or misleading for any reason. > > > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and thus to > MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to > their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is > therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their database as accurate and > up to date as possible. > > > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could > detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I > would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are > providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the > end user. > > > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > > > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > > That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've > spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies > over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up > entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run > proxies > period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And > vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are > totally different. > > > I think your issue is more a business model problem than a > registry > or IP problem. > > What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, > you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, > you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, > you can add or remove addresses. -- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. From Timothy at tra.gov.om Wed May 28 13:40:50 2014 From: Timothy at tra.gov.om (Timothy Roy) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:40:50 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various stakeholders and entities. I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the language a bit. -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 To: Bill Lewis Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can do about it. but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for this kind of discussion about private business... On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis wrote: > hi, > > this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites > such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different country. > > The least this does is change their web pages to the language making > it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service > due to being outside the service coverage area. > > We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content > providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of > Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from our experience. > > It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them > then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting Maxmind etc.. > > Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level > country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising data? > > I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these > databases with junk for the fun of it too.. > > -- > Bill Lewis > Kijoma Broadband > > > > On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: > > I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a > private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where > they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing > false information about them. > > > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first > place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a > ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by > coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city. > > > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these > ?more specific? data is crap for me. > > > > > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect > them to rely on their own database which has the information that I > have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > > > > > Regards > > > > Sinan ?Z?EKERC? > > > > > > > > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > To: admin at intl-alliance.com > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a > registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how > they can be contacted. > > > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, > but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be > more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. > > > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the > ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: > > > > "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot > therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" > > > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, > useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for > fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only > from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I > could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy > would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) > and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing > their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. > > > > MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from > multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data > derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. > > > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which > is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind > database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for > corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no > obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to > reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason. > > > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and > thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is > useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. > Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their > database as accurate and up to date as possible. > > > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind > could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their > minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same > way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the > location and details of the end user. > > > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > > > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If > all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information > they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more > because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to > gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they > produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my > end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the > appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in > end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my > mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, > which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database > in account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information > are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but > also the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > > That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've > spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies > over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up > entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run > proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never > proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open > proxies as they are totally different. > > > I think your issue is more a business model problem than a > registry or IP problem. > > What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind > providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers > rather than the location of users computers connected to them. > Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location > of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. > > So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to > provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to > obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed > for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And > nothing in this has to do with RIPE. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general > page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. -- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From admin at intl-alliance.com Wed May 28 13:50:08 2014 From: admin at intl-alliance.com (admin at intl-alliance.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 12:50:08 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> Message-ID: Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation. On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote: > I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet > Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various > stakeholders and entities. > > I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to > maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing > emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the > language a bit. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng > Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 > To: Bill Lewis > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim > they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for > blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express > their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. > > same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they > are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each > content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can > do about it. > > but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for > this kind of discussion about private business... > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis > wrote: >> hi, >> >> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites >> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different >> country. >> >> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making >> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service >> due to being outside the service coverage area. >> >> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the content >> providers to resolve their location database issues as the likes of >> Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from our >> experience. >> >> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them >> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting >> Maxmind etc.. >> >> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level >> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising >> data? >> >> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these >> databases with junk for the fun of it too.. >> >> -- >> Bill Lewis >> Kijoma Broadband >> >> >> >> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: >> >> I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >> private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where >> they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >> false information about them. >> >> >> >> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >> >> >> >> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a >> ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by >> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >> different city. >> >> >> >> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >> ?more specific? data is crap for me. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect >> them to rely on their own database which has the information that I >> have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Sinan ?Z?EKERC? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore >> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >> To: admin at intl-alliance.com >> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> >> >> >> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >> they can be contacted. >> >> >> >> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >> database. >> >> >> >> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >> ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: >> >> >> >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" >> >> >> >> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, >> useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for >> fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only >> from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I >> could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy >> would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) >> and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing >> their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >> >> >> >> MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from >> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. >> >> >> >> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for >> any reason. >> >> >> >> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and >> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their >> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >> >> >> >> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >> location and details of the end user. >> >> >> >> Edward Dore >> Freethought Internet >> >> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information >> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more >> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to >> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they >> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my >> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the >> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in >> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in my >> mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, >> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: >> >> Dear Jared, >> >> Thank you for your email. >> >> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >> resources. >> >> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile >> their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database >> in account. >> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but >> also the reputation of the providers of this data. >> >> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >> MaxMind. >> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> >> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >> information in our own tools. >> >> -- >> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Marco Schmidt >> RIPE NCC >> >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >> >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never >> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open >> proxies as they are totally different. >> >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than a >> registry or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind >> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers >> rather than the location of users computers connected to them. >> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location >> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to >> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to >> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed >> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And >> nothing in this has to do with RIPE. >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. > It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use > of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the > intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received > this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and > e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this > message and including the text of the transmission received. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. From Timothy at tra.gov.om Wed May 28 13:56:32 2014 From: Timothy at tra.gov.om (Timothy Roy) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:56:32 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> Message-ID: <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created. See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange. Anyone know why this would happen? -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin at intl-alliance.com Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50 To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation. On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote: > I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet > Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various > stakeholders and entities. > > I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to > maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing > emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the > language a bit. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng > Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 > To: Bill Lewis > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim > they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for > blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express > their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. > > same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they > are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each > content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can > do about it. > > but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for > this kind of discussion about private business... > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis > wrote: >> hi, >> >> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites >> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different >> country. >> >> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making >> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service >> due to being outside the service coverage area. >> >> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the >> content providers to resolve their location database issues as the >> likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from >> our experience. >> >> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them >> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting >> Maxmind etc.. >> >> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level >> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising >> data? >> >> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these >> databases with junk for the fun of it too.. >> >> -- >> Bill Lewis >> Kijoma Broadband >> >> >> >> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: >> >> I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >> private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where >> they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >> false information about them. >> >> >> >> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >> >> >> >> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in >> a ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by >> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >> different city. >> >> >> >> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >> ?more specific? data is crap for me. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I >> expect them to rely on their own database which has the information >> that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Sinan ?Z?EKERC? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore >> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >> To: admin at intl-alliance.com >> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> >> >> >> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >> they can be contacted. >> >> >> >> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >> database. >> >> >> >> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >> ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: >> >> >> >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" >> >> >> >> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with >> accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP >> addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that >> information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind >> be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) >> but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level >> instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the >> system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >> >> >> >> MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from >> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. >> >> >> >> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading >> for any reason. >> >> >> >> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and >> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their >> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >> >> >> >> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >> location and details of the end user. >> >> >> >> Edward Dore >> Freethought Internet >> >> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information >> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more >> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to >> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they >> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my >> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the >> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in >> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in >> my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, >> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: >> >> Dear Jared, >> >> Thank you for your email. >> >> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >> resources. >> >> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies >> compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE >> database in account. >> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but >> also the reputation of the providers of this data. >> >> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >> MaxMind. >> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> >> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >> information in our own tools. >> >> -- >> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Marco Schmidt >> RIPE NCC >> >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >> >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never >> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open >> proxies as they are totally different. >> >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than >> a registry or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind >> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers >> rather than the location of users computers connected to them. >> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location >> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to >> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to >> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed >> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And >> nothing in this has to do with RIPE. >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. > It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use > of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the > intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received > this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and > e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this > message and including the text of the transmission received. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: TelecityGroup Finland Subject: [TICKET=25888 WS=3] Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 14:50:07 +0300 Size: 31918 URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: =?UTF-8?B?0JTQtdC20YPRgNC90LDRjyDRgdC80LXQvdCw?= via RT Subject: [Relcom #3045] AutoReply: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 15:48:31 +0400 Size: 5787 URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Subject: Uw ticket met ID [TI-28052014-672] is in behandeling. Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:48:00 +0200 Size: 3299 URL: From ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk Wed May 28 14:16:43 2014 From: ripe at freethought-internet.co.uk (Edward Dore) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:16:43 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> Message-ID: <6BEBDA3F-B285-484A-95F5-09355A8D7B59@freethought-internet.co.uk> Some members in their infinite wisdom have decided to subscribe their ticketing systems to the mailing list, so they raised a ticket automatically when you sent your email and then sent the auto-response message back to you. Edward Dore Freethought Internet On 28 May 2014, at 12:56, Timothy Roy wrote: > I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created. > > See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange. > > Anyone know why this would happen? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin at intl-alliance.com > Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50 > To: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation. > > On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote: >> I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet >> Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various >> stakeholders and entities. >> >> I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to >> maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing >> emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the >> language a bit. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng >> Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 >> To: Bill Lewis >> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> >> it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim >> they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for >> blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express >> their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. >> >> same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they >> are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each >> content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can >> do about it. >> >> but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for >> this kind of discussion about private business... >> >> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis >> wrote: >>> hi, >>> >>> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites >>> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different >>> country. >>> >>> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making >>> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service >>> due to being outside the service coverage area. >>> >>> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the >>> content providers to resolve their location database issues as the >>> likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from >>> our experience. >>> >>> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them >>> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting >>> Maxmind etc.. >>> >>> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level >>> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising >>> data? >>> >>> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these >>> databases with junk for the fun of it too.. >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Lewis >>> Kijoma Broadband >>> >>> >>> >>> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: >>> >>> I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >>> private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where >>> they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >>> false information about them. >>> >>> >>> >>> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >>> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >>> >>> >>> >>> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in >>> a ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by >>> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >>> different city. >>> >>> >>> >>> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >>> ?more specific? data is crap for me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I >>> expect them to rely on their own database which has the information >>> that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Sinan ?Z?EKERC? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >>> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >>> To: admin at intl-alliance.com >>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >>> >>> >>> >>> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >>> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >>> they can be contacted. >>> >>> >>> >>> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >>> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >>> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >>> database. >>> >>> >>> >>> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >>> ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: >>> >>> >>> >>> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >>> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >>> countries" >>> >>> >>> >>> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with >>> accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP >>> addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that >>> information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind >>> be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) >>> but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level >>> instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the >>> system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >>> >>> >>> >>> MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from >>> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >>> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >>> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >>> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >>> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >>> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >>> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading >>> for any reason. >>> >>> >>> >>> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and >>> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >>> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >>> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their >>> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >>> >>> >>> >>> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >>> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >>> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >>> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >>> location and details of the end user. >>> >>> >>> >>> Edward Dore >>> Freethought Internet >>> >>> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >>> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information >>> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more >>> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to >>> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they >>> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my >>> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the >>> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in >>> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in >>> my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, >>> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: >>> >>> Dear Jared, >>> >>> Thank you for your email. >>> >>> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >>> resources. >>> >>> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies >>> compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE >>> database in account. >>> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >>> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >>> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but >>> also the reputation of the providers of this data. >>> >>> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >>> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >>> MaxMind. >>> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >>> >>> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >>> information in our own tools. >>> >>> -- >>> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Marco Schmidt >>> RIPE NCC >>> >>> >>> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >>> >>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >>> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never >>> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open >>> proxies as they are totally different. >>> >>> >>> I think your issue is more a business model problem than >>> a registry or IP problem. >>> >>> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind >>> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers >>> rather than the location of users computers connected to them. >>> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location >>> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. >>> >>> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to >>> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to >>> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed >>> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And >>> nothing in this has to do with RIPE. >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>> general >>> page: >>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >>> >>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>> general >>> page: >>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >>> >>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >>> >>> >>> >>> ---- >>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>> general >>> page: >>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >>> >>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >>> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> -- >> This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. >> It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >> otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use >> of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the >> intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received >> this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and >> e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this >> message and including the text of the transmission received. >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aree at cell-net.net Wed May 28 14:14:07 2014 From: aree at cell-net.net (Aree Osman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 15:14:07 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> Message-ID: <005301cf7a6e$56baaee0$04300ca0$@cell-net.net> Dears, Please it's not related to me please gone me out the loop. Regards, -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Timothy Roy Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:57 PM To: admin at intl-alliance.com; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created. See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange. Anyone know why this would happen? -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin at intl-alliance.com Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50 To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation. On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote: > I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet > Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various > stakeholders and entities. > > I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to > maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing > emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the > language a bit. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng > Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24 > To: Bill Lewis > Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim > they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for > blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express > their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion. > > same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they > are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each > content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can > do about it. > > but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for > this kind of discussion about private business... > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis > wrote: >> hi, >> >> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites >> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different >> country. >> >> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making >> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service >> due to being outside the service coverage area. >> >> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the >> content providers to resolve their location database issues as the >> likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from >> our experience. >> >> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them >> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting >> Maxmind etc.. >> >> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level >> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising >> data? >> >> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these >> databases with junk for the fun of it too.. >> >> -- >> Bill Lewis >> Kijoma Broadband >> >> >> >> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: >> >> I can?t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a >> private company?s database and helping them to earn more money where >> they don?t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing >> false information about them. >> >> >> >> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first >> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. >> >> >> >> In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in >> a ?Village? which of the name is the same as our company just by >> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally >> different city. >> >> >> >> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these >> ?more specific? data is crap for me. >> >> >> >> >> >> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I >> expect them to rely on their own database which has the information >> that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> Sinan ?Z?EKERC? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net >> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore >> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM >> To: admin at intl-alliance.com >> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members >> >> >> >> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how >> they can be contacted. >> >> >> >> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, >> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be >> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE >> database. >> >> >> >> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >> ?country? field in the ?inetnum? object: >> >> >> >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" >> >> >> >> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with >> accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP >> addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that >> information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind >> be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) >> but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level >> instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the >> system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. >> >> >> >> MaxMind do not ?make up? their information, they calculate it from >> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind?s algorithms. >> >> >> >> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which >> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind >> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for >> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no >> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to >> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading >> for any reason. >> >> >> >> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds? customers and >> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is >> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. >> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind?s best interest to keep their >> database as accurate and up to date as possible. >> >> >> >> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their >> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same >> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the >> location and details of the end user. >> >> >> >> Edward Dore >> Freethought Internet >> >> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If >> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information >> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more >> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to >> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they >> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my >> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the >> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in >> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in >> my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, >> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation: >> >> Dear Jared, >> >> Thank you for your email. >> >> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >> resources. >> >> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies >> compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE >> database in account. >> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information >> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but >> also the reputation of the providers of this data. >> >> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from >> MaxMind. >> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> >> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >> information in our own tools. >> >> -- >> Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Marco Schmidt >> RIPE NCC >> >> >> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >> >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never >> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open >> proxies as they are totally different. >> >> >> I think your issue is more a business model problem than >> a registry or IP problem. >> >> What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind >> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers >> rather than the location of users computers connected to them. >> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location >> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown. >> >> So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to >> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to >> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed >> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And >> nothing in this has to do with RIPE. >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general >> page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >> From here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > -- > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. > It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use > of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the > intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received > this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and > e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this > message and including the text of the transmission received. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk Wed May 28 16:19:26 2014 From: Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk (Bill Lewis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 15:19:26 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <20140528105207.GR46558@Space.Net> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <20140528105207.GR46558@Space.Net> Message-ID: ahh so I think I get it now... We have a lot of customers who are not from this country or do not natively speak English (we are entirely UK based) . So if they opt to use say Spanish websites and resources then Maxmind and others make a drastic assumption about the IP address and/or block those customer(s) use ? One of our customers who had this problem for example runs a Hotel and provides WiFi to their guests. As the language and nationality of those guests is entirely unpredictable , Maxmind will completely screw up that hotels IP origin/location. What happens with those providers who give out IP's from a dynamic pool ? Must be even more hell for them. Well done Maxmind for a madly stupid algorithm.. At least we know where to direct the more litigious customers if they blow a fuse over not being able to watch online content. bill On 28/05/2014 11:52, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:35:39AM +0100, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: >> There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to >> determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy >> into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. > This is the point: they *are* telling the world "we don't know where these > users are". So what are you complaining about? > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk Wed May 28 16:22:08 2014 From: Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk (Bill Lewis) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 15:22:08 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <6BEBDA3F-B285-484A-95F5-09355A8D7B59@freethought-internet.co.uk> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <5385c5b3.a514b40a.151e.0c1eSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A81BF@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> <962B35EE7538DD448DF70940EE3756FA392A9336@TRASRV08.TRA.COM> <6BEBDA3F-B285-484A-95F5-09355A8D7B59@freethought-internet.co.uk> Message-ID: heh , that issue has been around for ages too.. who would sub a reporting system to a discussion group? Can't blame Maxmind for that at least... On 28/05/2014 13:16, Edward Dore wrote: > Some members in their infinite wisdom have decided to subscribe their > ticketing systems to the mailing list, so they raised a ticket > automatically when you sent your email and then sent the auto-response > message back to you. > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > -- Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gert at space.net Wed May 28 17:25:38 2014 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 17:25:38 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <20140528142010.330F16025B@mobil.space.net> References: <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> <20140528105207.GR46558@Space.Net> <20140528142010.330F16025B@mobil.space.net> Message-ID: <20140528152538.GT46558@Space.Net> Hi, On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 03:19:26PM +0100, Bill Lewis wrote: > ahh so I think I get it now... No, you're mixing up different cases. The original poster is providing VPN services, where the whole point is "hide the true origin of the user of the VPN service". Whether you call it "VPN" or "proxy" or whatever, this is just different technical means to achieve the same goal. Now, MaxMind caught up on this, and marks his IP ranges as "proxy services", aka "we don't know where in the world the user is" - which is quite correct. Now, if your business model is based on "I'm in the US, I'm offering VPN based services for money, so people can watch US-only television offerings" this tag would certainly wreck your business model. OTOH, that business model is bordering on fraud to begin with - getting paid to provide a way to circumvent content providers' restrictions that are there for a reason. (Of course I can see the point of someone actually *being* from the US, traveling abroad, wanting to watch his home TV shows - but I claim the majority of users just want to circumvent the restrictions, without actually being uS-centric) So - of *course* these VPN providers are unhappy if MaxMind provides correct data ("proxy service"). But such is business - your market niche just went away. Nothing RIPE is going to do about it. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fahad at gccix.net Wed May 28 17:43:47 2014 From: fahad at gccix.net (Fahad AlShirawi) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 18:43:47 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: "\"<681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com>" " <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <01a801cf7a5d$dc864d10$9592e730$@esertelekom.com> Message-ID: <20140528154347.20271236.21311.2859@gccix.net> Vpn means the true location of your users cannot be determined. If it cannot be determined then anonymous is correct even if proxy isn't accurate. Geolocation means: can be located. Vpn insures that cannot be done. So, they mark it as cannot be located. What others do with this data: ban your range or not, is up to them. Whether the algorithm is bullshit or not is besides the point. If they screw lots of ranges up, customers won't use them and will use someone else. If there aren't a lot of choices out there other than them, then: business opportunity for you to do it 'right' by your definition. RIR database isn't for location. It's for who a range is assigned to. The LIR assigned a range can then as per policy advertise it anywhere in the world they want depending on their network setup and needs. I am based in Bahrain but because of the level of peering in the region, I may chose to announce some of my range in London for example. Geolocation wise my users are still in Bahrain and so on and so forth.? Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. ? Original Message ? From: admin at intl-alliance.com Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2014 13:36 To: Sinan ?z?ekerci Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members Halle-fuckin-lujah!!! Thats my point exactly. The company causing the disruption is a for-profit company. Its to Maxmind's benefit to do as they please and profit off it. Fuck the smaller companies out there. They get trampled by companies like Maxmind. In my case, when I enter my network and want to trace my ip address on a site like www.whatismyipaddress.com (yes, they utilize Maxmind), I want to see my network information up there. Not some half-assed bullshit proxy information put out there by Maxmind using whatever horse-shit algorithm they cooked up. There is no reliable method that Maxmind can use to determine where our end-users are physically located. So I don't buy into their story about their fancy algorithm or traffic patterns. Again as I said, this is another example of corporate greed. They can't determine shit about my clients, so just mark it as an anonymous proxy because we can't prove it seems to be their game. The only reason they even know that I'm a vpn provider is because I've had to contact them so many times over the years to correct their faulty databases that they probably know me on a first name basis now. Its ridiculous that we have to submit updates to them at all. And even more ludicrous when they claim to analyze traffic patterns and deploy various algorithms, but at the same time for years they couldn't even keep their own databases up to date. They bill their Geoip2 database as an "intelligent" product, but I see nothing intelligent about it. Especially when they mark brand new ip ranges just issued by RIPE as proxies before I've even implemented routing the damned things in our data center. How in the fuck can you justify marking ip ranges as anonymous proxies before the ip addresses are even slapped on a server? Justify that Edward! On 2014-05-28 11:16, Sinan ?z?ekerci wrote: > I can't understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a > private company's database and helping them to ?earn more money where > they don't mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing > false information about them. > > This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first > place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money. > > In our case , maximind is showing the location of ?our IP subnets in > a "Village" which of the ?name is the same as our company just by > coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally > different city. > > So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these > "more specific" data is crap for me. > > As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect > them to rely on their own database which has the information that I > have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers. > > Regards > > Sinan ?Z?EKERC? > > FROM: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] ON BEHALF OF Edward Dore > SENT: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM > TO: admin at intl-alliance.com > CC: members-discuss at ripe.net > SUBJECT: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members > > The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a > registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how > they can be contacted. > > MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, > but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be > more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE > database. > > Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the > "country" field in the "inetnum" object: > >> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot >> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to >> countries" > > As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, > useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for > fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only > from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I > could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy > would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) > and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing > their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information. > > MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from > multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data > derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. > > Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which > is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind > database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for > corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no > obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to > reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for > any reason. > > Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and > thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is > useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. > Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their > database as accurate and up to date as possible. > > As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind > could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their > minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same > way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the > location and details of the end user. > > Edward Dore > Freethought Internet > > On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > > I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If > all > ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they > made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it > > would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather > their > information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on > their > own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip > information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply > stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than > > ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught > the > attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following > email > regarding this situation: > > Dear Jared, > > Thank you for your email. > > We value your concern about correct registration details for internet > resources. > > However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile > > their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database > in > account. > Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the > mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information > are > incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also > > the reputation of the providers of this data. > > And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the > stat.ripe.net [1] team as there for Geolocation we are using data from > > MaxMind. > https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo [2] > > Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting > information in our own tools. > > -- > Thank you again for bring up this topic. > > Kind regards, > > Marco Schmidt > RIPE NCC > > On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: > >> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their >> inaccuracies >> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw >> up >> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >> proxies >> period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. >> And >> vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they >> are >> totally different. > > ??????????? I think your issue is more a business model > problem than a registry > or IP problem. > > ??????????? What you are saying is that you depend on > Maxmind providing the > location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the > location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other > hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, > or will mark the location as unknown. > > ??????????? So your business model depends on Maxmind > agreeing to provide to > their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And > they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but > that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this > has to do with RIPE. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ [3] > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://stat.ripe.net > [2] https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo > [3] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From hank at efes.iucc.ac.il Wed May 28 17:52:50 2014 From: hank at efes.iucc.ac.il (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 18:52:50 +0300 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20140528183232.003b8d30@efes.iucc.ac.il> At 10:41 28/05/2014 +0100, Edward Dore wrote: No geo-database is perfect. For example, take RIPE. If we use: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/pub/stats/ripencc/delegated-ripencc-latest ftp://ftp.ripe.net/pub/stats/ripencc/RIR-Statistics-Exchange-Format.txt Note they add a disclaimer which wasn't there in Feb 2012: cc = ISO 3166 2-letter country code, and the enumerated variances of {AP,EU,UK} These values are not defined in ISO 3166 but are widely used. The cc value identifies the country. However, it is not specified if this is the country where the addresses are used. There are no rules defined for this value. It therefore cannot be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries Only after I complained did they add that line in. Why? Many companies used that info to do geolocation. Including a two major firewall vendors. So when a number of local companies in Israel decided to stop foreign based attacks by turning on "geo-location" in their f/w and allow only Israel based IPs to access their systems (think banks, insurance companies, municipalties, etc.), guess what happened to all of academia who have their IP ranges listed as country=EU due to ERX transfer from ARIN to RIPE. Yup! Professors were no longer able to access their pension fund info, students were unable to pay their municipal taxes - all because of geo-location. Took me weeks to find each and every one and get the sysadmin to fix their broken geo-location service. And to get the f/w vendors to fix their broken geo-location database pull. I had similar issues with Maxmind since Ookla was/is using them and returning incorrect info. I sent multiple correction reports to correction at maxmind.com and support at maxmind.com and never even received a response. So consider yourself lucky that you are getting responses from them. Bottom line: geo-location sucks and anyone who trusts their systems to it are only thinking along 98% perfection - rather than having a 100% perfect solution. -Hank >The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a >registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they >can be contacted. > >MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but >they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more >specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database. > >Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the >"country" field in the "inetnum" object: > >>"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore >>be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries" > >As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, >useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud >screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE >database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get >the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be >significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would >be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in >the RIPE database to contain false information. > >MaxMind do not "make up" their information, they calculate it from >multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data >derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind's algorithms. > >Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is >why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is >inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind >will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections >submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are >inaccurate or misleading for any reason. > >Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds' customers and thus to >MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to >their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it >is therefore in MaxMind's best interest to keep their database as accurate >and up to date as possible. > >As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind >could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud >service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because >they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and >details of the end user. > >Edward Dore >Freethought Internet > >On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, >admin at intl-alliance.com wrote: > >>I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all >>ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they >>made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it >>would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their >>information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their >>own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip >>information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply >>stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than >>ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the >>attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email >>regarding this situation: >> >>Dear Jared, >> >>Thank you for your email. >> >>We value your concern about correct registration details for internet >>resources. >> >>However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile >>their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in >>account. >>Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the >>mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are >>incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also >>the reputation of the providers of this data. >> >>And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the >>stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are >>using data from >>MaxMind. >>https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo >> >>Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting >>information in our own tools. >> >>-- >>Thank you again for bring up this topic. >> >>Kind regards, >> >>Marco Schmidt >>RIPE NCC >> >> >>On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote: >>>>That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've >>>>spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies >>>>over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up >>>>entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run >>>>proxies >>>>period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And >>>>vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are >>>>totally different. >>> >>>I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry >>>or IP problem. >>> >>>What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the >>>location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the >>>location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other >>>hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can, >>>or will mark the location as unknown. >>> >>>So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to >>>their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And >>>they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but >>>that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this >>>has to do with RIPE. >> >>---- >>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>general page: >>https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ >> >>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >>here, you can add or remove addresses. > >---- >If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >general page: >https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/ > >Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >here, you can add or remove addresses. From hph at oslo.net Thu May 29 09:20:21 2014 From: hph at oslo.net (Hans Petter Holen) Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 09:20:21 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> Message-ID: <5386DFB5.7050403@oslo.net> On 28.05.14 11:17, Jan Marius Evang wrote: > Interesting that RIPE don't use the RIPE data? > > https://stat.ripe.net/93.93.98.2 > > The geoloc-frame places it in Norway while the Registry browser (on the same page) places it in US (which is correct)... If you click on the Info button and scroll down to datasource you will interestingly see: IPv4 information is based on GeoLite data created by MaxMind, which is Copyright 2008 MaxMind, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Please consult MaxMind's license before using this data for non-internal usage. For details on the accuracy of this data, please visit MaxMind's product website. -- Hans Petter Holen Mobile +47 45 06 60 54 | hph at oslo.net | http://hph.oslo.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lists-ripe at c4inet.net Thu May 29 09:37:18 2014 From: lists-ripe at c4inet.net (Sascha Luck) Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 08:37:18 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members In-Reply-To: <5386DFB5.7050403@oslo.net> References: <681ec89199c86d80f41687500a0260a9@intl-alliance.com> <538599E3.7050708@tvt-datos.es> <2275f727577c22c75d498fd55216f33e@intl-alliance.com> <45aa6c4fb708f88eddee60ecdf94dcee@intl-alliance.com> <5386DFB5.7050403@oslo.net> Message-ID: <20140529073718.GF87032@cilantro.c4inet.net> On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 09:20:21AM +0200, Hans Petter Holen wrote: >If you click on the Info button and scroll down to datasource you >will interestingly see: > >IPv4 information is based on GeoLite data created by MaxMind, which >is Copyright 2008 MaxMind, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Please consult >MaxMind's license before using this data for non-internal usage. For >details on the accuracy of this data, please visit MaxMind's product >website. Perhaps, whether the community is happy with this would be a good topic to discuss on services-wg. I, for one, cannot be bothered to read MaxMind's small print in order to figure out how I am allowed (or not allowed, as the case may be) to use the stat.ripe.net data... rgds, Sascha Luck