From jochem at ripe.net Thu Dec 1 16:30:47 2011 From: jochem at ripe.net (Jochem de Ruig) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 16:30:47 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Executive Board Activity Since the RIPE NCC General Meeting In-Reply-To: <828vmynhr9.fsf@mid.bfk.de> References: <4ED51EAC.9020705@titley.com> <828vmynhr9.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Message-ID: <2AB1833E-5432-4D10-B7AB-1AE621D4D56A@ripe.net> Dear Florian, There is no 100% conclusive way to see in the RIPE Database whether prefixes are legacy space under this waiver. There are some ways to see/deduct it in the RIPE Database but that is not complete nor conclusive as the status of these objects has changed many times over the years. Regards, Jochem de Ruig RIPE NCC On Nov 30, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Nigel Titley: > >> As the proposed Charging Scheme did not find sufficient support, we will >> use the 2011 Charging Scheme for 2012. Because the 2011 Charging Scheme >> does not explicitly say that legacy space resources will have no impact >> on membership fees, the Board has decided to formally waive fees for >> legacy space resources for the coming year. > > Thanks for the update. > > Is it possible to determine from the RIPE database if a resource is a > legacy space resource in the sense of this waiver? > > -- > Florian Weimer > BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ > Kriegsstra?e 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 > D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1735 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lir at lanto.it Tue Dec 13 18:15:01 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:15:01 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. I feel quite strange being now classified as small, because we are using the smallest assignment possible (one /21 IPv4, one /32 IPv6, one AS). I studied the computational algorithm for assigning points, and I feel quite strange points for IPv4 being calculated this way: (first year of allocation LESS 1992) * IPv4 units; in our case, this means => 2011 - 1992 * 1 => 19. See http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/info/billing/how-to-calculate-a-billing-score for scoring method. This means every one asking first block allocation after year 2008 will be classified SMALL, despite of his real dimensions and resources. This is quite punishing for new comers like us, and not fair at all as a fee computing method. It looks like more we asked far from year 1992, more we have to pay. I don't see really a logic in this method. Any opinion? Can someone enlight me please? Antonio Nati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob.golding at othellotech.net Tue Dec 13 19:54:07 2011 From: rob.golding at othellotech.net (Rob Golding) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:54:07 -0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> Message-ID: <03d901ccb9c8$994a4180$cbdec480$@golding@othellotech.net> > This means every one asking first block allocation after year 2008 will be > classified SMALL, despite of his real dimensions and resources. > > This is quite punishing for new comers like us, and not fair at all as a > fee computing method. It's like flights - the later you leave it to travel-date the more expensive they become. Rob From jblessing at llnw.com Tue Dec 13 20:16:15 2011 From: jblessing at llnw.com (James Blessing) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:16:15 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: > We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been > surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather than using a new model? J -- James Blessing +44 7989 039 476 Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA Limelight Networks From lir at lanto.it Tue Dec 13 20:17:32 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:17:32 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <03d901ccb9c8$994a4180$cbdec480$@golding@othellotech.net> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <03d901ccb9c8$994a4180$cbdec480$@golding@othellotech.net> Message-ID: <4EE7A4CC.7030306@lanto.it> Il 13/12/2011 19:54, Rob Golding ha scritto: >> This means every one asking first block allocation after year 2008 will be >> classified SMALL, despite of his real dimensions and resources. >> >> This is quite punishing for new comers like us, and not fair at all as a >> fee computing method. > It's like flights - the later you leave it to travel-date the more expensive > they become. Yes. But you had to book 15 years before your date. Tonino From lir at lanto.it Tue Dec 13 20:23:27 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:23:27 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> Message-ID: <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: > On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. > Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee > and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather > than using a new model? I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite of used. This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes new entries and gives resources for free to old members. Regards, Tonino > > J > > From jblessing at llnw.com Tue Dec 13 20:26:03 2011 From: jblessing at llnw.com (James Blessing) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:26:03 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: > Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >> than using a new model? > > I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. Ah, then try starting here... http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html J -- James Blessing +44 7989 039 476 Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA Limelight Networks From michal.margula at acsystemy.pl Tue Dec 13 20:32:20 2011 From: michal.margula at acsystemy.pl (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Margula?=) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:32:20 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> W dniu 13.12.2011 20:23, LIR pisze: > I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. > > Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite of used. > > This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes new > entries and gives resources for free to old members. > > Regards, > > Tonino > I can't agree. W got our first resources about 5 years ago. First year we were "EXTRA SMALL", and then every year we are categorized "SMALL", altough we requested some more resources. And does 500 euro per year really makes any difference? Really?? Let's count IPv4 - you got /21 which is 1024 addresess which makes 50 cents (per year! about 4 cents a month!!) difference. And about fairness of that calculation - the later you get resources the more are they valuable, and they really are! -- Micha? Margula :: AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 From lir at lanto.it Tue Dec 13 23:26:56 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:26:56 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> Message-ID: <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> Il 13/12/2011 20:26, James Blessing ha scritto: > On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: >> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >>> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >>> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >>> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >>> than using a new model? >> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. > Ah, then try starting here... > http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html Thanks, done, and that did not improve my understanding. Actual method penalises start-up companies and protect old operators, charging at very different rates. Regards, Tonino > J > > From lir at lanto.it Tue Dec 13 23:28:47 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:28:47 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> Il 13/12/2011 20:32, Micha? Margula ha scritto: > W dniu 13.12.2011 20:23, LIR pisze: >> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >> >> Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite of used. >> >> This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes new >> entries and gives resources for free to old members. >> >> Regards, >> >> Tonino >> > I can't agree. W got our first resources about 5 years ago. First year > we were "EXTRA SMALL", and then every year we are categorized "SMALL", > altough we requested some more resources. > > And does 500 euro per year really makes any difference? Really?? Let's > count IPv4 - you got /21 which is 1024 addresess which makes 50 cents > (per year! about 4 cents a month!!) difference. > > And about fairness of that calculation - the later you get resources the > more are they valuable, and they really are! First, when IP were rarely used, a lot of companies got huge assignments because the ocean was so huge. Now that ocean has becomed smaller, who is wasting water must pay for what he consumes. Second, It is not acceptable that a company using 16 /21 IPv4 blocks is charged as one which uses 1 /21 block, just because the latter started later his business. This can remind a 'trust' protecting old players against new players. Regards, Tonino From nigel at titley.com Tue Dec 13 23:46:44 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:46:44 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> On 13/12/11 22:26, LIR wrote: > Il 13/12/2011 20:26, James Blessing ha scritto: >> On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: >>> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >>>> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>>>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>>>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >>>> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >>>> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >>>> than using a new model? >>> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >> Ah, then try starting here... >> http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html > > Thanks, done, and that did not improve my understanding. > > Actual method penalises start-up companies and protect old operators, > charging at very different rates. The new charging scheme would probably have resulted in your payments going down but unfortunately it wasn't accepted by the members. Nigel From paolo.difrancesco at level7.it Tue Dec 13 23:50:59 2011 From: paolo.difrancesco at level7.it (Paolo Di Francesco) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:50:59 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7D6D3.5000901@level7.it> Regarding the IPv4 fee policy, I am still of the opinion that the more IPv4 address space you use, the more you pay (per IP). Or we would not call it "scarse resource". Just my 2 Euro Cents. > We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been > surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. > > I feel quite strange being now classified as small, because we are using > the smallest assignment possible (one /21 IPv4, one /32 IPv6, one AS). > > I studied the computational algorithm for assigning points, and I feel > quite strange points for IPv4 being calculated this way: > (first year of allocation LESS 1992) * IPv4 units; in our case, > this means => 2011 - 1992 * 1 => 19. > > See > http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/info/billing/how-to-calculate-a-billing-score > for scoring method. > > This means every one asking first block allocation after year 2008 will > be classified SMALL, despite of his real dimensions and resources. > > This is quite punishing for new comers like us, and not fair at all as a > fee computing method. > It looks like more we asked far from year 1992, more we have to pay. I > don't see really a logic in this method. > > Any opinion? Can someone enlight me please? > > Antonio Nati > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 Fax : +39-091-8772072 assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 web: http://www.level7.it From lir at lanto.it Wed Dec 14 00:22:47 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:22:47 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> Message-ID: <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> Il 13/12/2011 23:46, Nigel Titley ha scritto: > On 13/12/11 22:26, LIR wrote: >> Il 13/12/2011 20:26, James Blessing ha scritto: >>> On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: >>>> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >>>>> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>>>>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>>>>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >>>>> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >>>>> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >>>>> than using a new model? >>>> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >>> Ah, then try starting here... >>> http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html >> Thanks, done, and that did not improve my understanding. >> >> Actual method penalises start-up companies and protect old operators, >> charging at very different rates. > The new charging scheme would probably have resulted in your payments > going down but unfortunately it wasn't accepted by the members. Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? Tonino From fahad at gccix.net Wed Dec 14 00:47:26 2011 From: fahad at gccix.net (Fahad AlShirawi) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:47:26 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> Message-ID: <2054686398-1323820047-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2003910884-@b26.c11.bise7.blackberry> That is correct. At the last General Meeting. Sent via BlackBerry? from GCCIX -----Original Message----- From: LIR Sender: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:22:47 To: Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Il 13/12/2011 23:46, Nigel Titley ha scritto: > On 13/12/11 22:26, LIR wrote: >> Il 13/12/2011 20:26, James Blessing ha scritto: >>> On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: >>>> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >>>>> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>>>>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>>>>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >>>>> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >>>>> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >>>>> than using a new model? >>>> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >>> Ah, then try starting here... >>> http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html >> Thanks, done, and that did not improve my understanding. >> >> Actual method penalises start-up companies and protect old operators, >> charging at very different rates. > The new charging scheme would probably have resulted in your payments > going down but unfortunately it wasn't accepted by the members. Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? Tonino ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From nigel at titley.com Wed Dec 14 01:09:01 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:09:01 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com> On 13/12/11 23:22, LIR wrote: > Il 13/12/2011 23:46, Nigel Titley ha scritto: >> On 13/12/11 22:26, LIR wrote: >>> Il 13/12/2011 20:26, James Blessing ha scritto: >>>> On 13/12/2011 19:23, LIR wrote: >>>>> Il 13/12/2011 20:16, James Blessing ha scritto: >>>>>> On 13/12/2011 17:15, LIR wrote: >>>>>>> We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been >>>>>>> surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. >>>>>> Did you see the previous conversation on list about the membership fee >>>>>> and the fact that for 2012 we are reusing the 2011 calculation rather >>>>>> than using a new model? >>>>> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >>>> Ah, then try starting here... >>>> http://lists.ripe.net/pipermail/members-discuss/2011-October/thread.html >>> Thanks, done, and that did not improve my understanding. >>> >>> Actual method penalises start-up companies and protect old operators, >>> charging at very different rates. >> The new charging scheme would probably have resulted in your payments >> going down but unfortunately it wasn't accepted by the members. > > Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every year. You have one vote like every other member. The results are minuted and the minutes are publically available. Nigel From green at msu.ru Wed Dec 14 06:49:46 2011 From: green at msu.ru (Alexander Zubkov) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:49:46 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: <4EE838FA.5060409@msu.ru> On 12/13/2011 11:32 PM, Micha? Margula wrote: > W dniu 13.12.2011 20:23, LIR pisze: >> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >> >> Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite of used. >> >> This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes new >> entries and gives resources for free to old members. >> >> Regards, >> >> Tonino >> > > I can't agree. W got our first resources about 5 years ago. First year > we were "EXTRA SMALL", and then every year we are categorized "SMALL", > altough we requested some more resources. > > And does 500 euro per year really makes any difference? Really?? Let's > count IPv4 - you got /21 which is 1024 addresess which makes 50 cents > (per year! about 4 cents a month!!) difference. > > And about fairness of that calculation - the later you get resources the > more are they valuable, and they really are! > This is absolutely correct in case of one-time payment. But membership fee is regular and you are right - resources are valuable. And this should be applied to all members, not to newcomers only. From poty at iiat.ru Wed Dec 14 08:08:37 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (poty at iiat.ru) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:08:37 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: 1. Newcomers need several special (and not so special, but more "manual") procedures for contract signing, teaching, allocating, assisting first assignments, a lot more supporting, "free entrance" to RIPE meeting ... I think it reasonably costs several cents more? 2. You are right about the membership fee, but every member was once a newcomer and since then pays every year the money, according the current charging scheme. Many of "current" LIRs have already contributed a lot to community (and RIPE NCC) not only by means of fees, but by ideas, solutions... 3. The rules of allocating "then" were different than "now". The "default" block was bigger and the procedures for the distribution of allocated space were not so strictly tough. Why we should punish the LIRs now to abide the rules and best practices? ... (it's only small number of arguments, and - yes - the matter was discussed several times already) Regards, Vladislav Potapov > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- > bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Alexander Zubkov > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:50 AM > To: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > > On 12/13/2011 11:32 PM, Micha? Margula wrote: > > W dniu 13.12.2011 20:23, LIR pisze: > >> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of > that kind. > >> > >> Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite > of used. > >> > >> This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes > >> new entries and gives resources for free to old members. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Tonino > >> > > > > I can't agree. W got our first resources about 5 years ago. First > year > > we were "EXTRA SMALL", and then every year we are categorized > "SMALL", > > altough we requested some more resources. > > > > And does 500 euro per year really makes any difference? Really?? > Let's > > count IPv4 - you got /21 which is 1024 addresess which makes 50 cents > > (per year! about 4 cents a month!!) difference. > > > > And about fairness of that calculation - the later you get resources > > the more are they valuable, and they really are! > > > > This is absolutely correct in case of one-time payment. But membership > fee is regular and you are right - resources are valuable. And this > should be applied to all members, not to newcomers only. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. From lir at lanto.it Wed Dec 14 09:15:47 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:15:47 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> Il 14/12/2011 07:56, Raymond Jetten ha scritto: > > > A large ISP does not neccesarily demand more work from the RIPE NCC > then a starting one, usually they (small ones) need more guidance in > the beginning. Also large ISP:s may have larger (amounts of) customers > then a small isp. We are paying for RIPE NCC membership services, not > solely for IP:s (imho) So this can be true for first years, not for life. Would more fair to put on same level all ISP after some years (but no more than three). > > Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will > become more expensive, also situations is different countries > (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the > same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the > price has gone up? When I fill up my car I do not pay gasoline depending on the year I bought my car. Regards, Tonino From s.wiese at trabia.net Wed Dec 14 09:30:02 2011 From: s.wiese at trabia.net (Sven Wiese) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:30:02 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> Message-ID: <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> Hi, On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:15 AM, LIR wrote: >> Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will >> become more expensive, also situations is different countries >> (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the >> same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the >> price has gone up? > > When I fill up my car I do not pay gasoline depending on the year I > bought my car. you also don't pay the resources you take on the year you created your company (compared as when you bought the car), rather you pay the resource based on the year you obtained the resource (compared the day you fill in the gasoline to your car). The only difference is, gasoline you have to refill again and again and so it goes more and more expensive. The resource is permanent and won't get more expensive (depends on charging scheme). Cheers, Sven From s.wiese at trabia.net Wed Dec 14 09:57:30 2011 From: s.wiese at trabia.net (Sven Wiese) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:57:30 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <2A5D9B337A8609449DCFA93D0C97D2560A8408@LN-EXCHMBX-01.labnet.lu> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> <2A5D9B337A8609449DCFA93D0C97D2560A8408@LN-EXCHMBX-01.labnet.lu> Message-ID: <0F0C6D28-8291-4FCB-9D0F-6FD88152612D@trabia.net> On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Michel Maggi wrote: > Do we enter a philosophical contest here ? Good one ;) > What are the charges upgrade between super small and small then ? That is concrete at least ? The difference between that two categories is 500 EUR per year, if I am not mistaken. Basically you can remain only in extra-small if you obtain only IPv6 resources and a ASN and no IPv4 resource. Cheers, Sven From raymond.jetten at elisa.fi Wed Dec 14 07:56:10 2011 From: raymond.jetten at elisa.fi (Raymond Jetten) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:56:10 +0200 (EET) Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, LIR wrote: > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:28:47 +0100 > From: LIR > To: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > > Il 13/12/2011 20:32, Micha? Margula ha scritto: >> W dniu 13.12.2011 20:23, LIR pisze: >>> I am new to RIPE and list, and I did not see any conversation of that kind. >>> >>> Anyway, I find this way of calculating is not fair at all, despite of used. >>> >>> This model does not compute real usage of resources, but penalizes new >>> entries and gives resources for free to old members. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Tonino >>> >> I can't agree. W got our first resources about 5 years ago. First year >> we were "EXTRA SMALL", and then every year we are categorized "SMALL", >> altough we requested some more resources. >> >> And does 500 euro per year really makes any difference? Really?? Let's >> count IPv4 - you got /21 which is 1024 addresess which makes 50 cents >> (per year! about 4 cents a month!!) difference. >> >> And about fairness of that calculation - the later you get resources the >> more are they valuable, and they really are! > > First, when IP were rarely used, a lot of companies got huge assignments > because the ocean was so huge. > Now that ocean has becomed smaller, who is wasting water must pay for > what he consumes. > > Second, It is not acceptable that a company using 16 /21 IPv4 blocks is > charged as one which uses 1 /21 block, just because the latter started > later his business. > > This can remind a 'trust' protecting old players against new players. > > Regards, > > Tonino > A large ISP does not neccesarily demand more work from the RIPE NCC then a starting one, usually they (small ones) need more guidance in the beginning. Also large ISP:s may have larger (amounts of) customers then a small isp. We are paying for RIPE NCC membership services, not solely for IP:s (imho) Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will become more expensive, also situations is different countries (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the price has gone up? Rgds, Raymond > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- ************************************************************ Raymond Jetten ??? Phone: +358 3 41024 139 Senior System Specialist Fax: +358 3 41024 199 Elisa Oyj / Network Management Mobile: +358 45 6700 139 Hermiankatu 3A?? ?????????? raymond.jetten at elisa.fi FIN-33720, TAMPERE????????? http://www.elisa.fi ************************************************************ From h.lu at outsideheaven.com Wed Dec 14 00:41:11 2011 From: h.lu at outsideheaven.com (Lu Heng) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:41:11 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7D6D3.5000901@level7.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7D6D3.5000901@level7.it> Message-ID: Well, if the new 2012 charging scheme was processed, then it will be based on amount of resource we are using. Otherwise, as new comer(we too.), we pay more than old ones. it does make for new start-up more difficult in some ways, and protected the old ones. as the argument that the time the Lir have got the IP address which then it was "cheaper", doesn't really stand on it's ground, because today, the new IP and old IP has same value. For example, if you have 1Million dollar by 1990, if you kept till today at home, you still spend the money as it is today's 1 million dollar, but not the real money converted to today's value(which will be way more than 1M due to inflation). The same goes for IP, if IP's price goes up, it not only benefits the new comer who got the IP but also the old ones who already had the IP. If everybody is holding something has same value, why one party should be paying more while another should be paying less. I had a discussion with one of Ripe people, we also both think that Ripe might should be charging member based on amount of IP they are using(which is "real fair"), but they cannot do it. I don't know if everybody realize this: Most large company spend less on their millions IP than their coffees(Think of that, in per IP costs term, the one in extra large are paying 5500 Euro for about 10 million IPs, which means 0.00000055 Euro/Ip/year for them, while for small ones around 50 cents/ip/year, which is almost 1 million times more expensive than what the large ones paying). So the solution might be raise the "large" member's fee and lower small member's fee, which was exactly what charging scheme was trying to do. My personal opinion on the new charging scheme, it just was not raise enough for the extra large ones. otherwise it will get pass:) But on the other side of the story, I mean the current fees are only few thousands euro a year, it is less costs then anything else in your business, your server, you data center, your peering, it is almost the cheapest thing in this business, I do think ripe is very efficiency organization based on what amount of resource it's managing. Even though I do think it might not be very fair for most small ones and new comers, but personally I complaint on something already happened might not be a very good idea, it might be more worth to spend more than discuss the 2013's charging scheme will looks like. See if we can get more fair this time:) Lu On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Paolo Di Francesco < paolo.difrancesco at level7.it> wrote: > Regarding the IPv4 fee policy, I am still of the opinion that the more > IPv4 address space you use, the more you pay (per IP). > > Or we would not call it "scarse resource". > > Just my 2 Euro Cents. > > > > > > We have received the message with fees for year 2012, and we've been > > surprised, because we've been 'upgraded' from extra-small to small. > > > > I feel quite strange being now classified as small, because we are using > > the smallest assignment possible (one /21 IPv4, one /32 IPv6, one AS). > > > > I studied the computational algorithm for assigning points, and I feel > > quite strange points for IPv4 being calculated this way: > > (first year of allocation LESS 1992) * IPv4 units; in our case, > > this means => 2011 - 1992 * 1 => 19. > > > > See > > > http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/info/billing/how-to-calculate-a-billing-score > > for scoring method. > > > > This means every one asking first block allocation after year 2008 will > > be classified SMALL, despite of his real dimensions and resources. > > > > This is quite punishing for new comers like us, and not fair at all as a > > fee computing method. > > It looks like more we asked far from year 1992, more we have to pay. I > > don't see really a logic in this method. > > > > Any opinion? Can someone enlight me please? > > > > Antonio Nati > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > > -- > > > Ing. Paolo Di Francesco > > Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale > > Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo > > C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 > Fax : +39-091-8772072 > assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 > web: http://www.level7.it > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > -- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsamko at aquafon.com Wed Dec 14 09:30:30 2011 From: dsamko at aquafon.com (Dmitry Samko) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:30:30 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> Message-ID: <4EE85EA6.2070108@aquafon.com> Billing Scheme is quite flexible, if you take a closer look pon it. RIPE NCC can simply increase score points in future, or make up new start date (leter than 1992year), if you're worry about ripe wine (gas in this particular case). If the new scheme for 2012 was not approved there could be many reasons for that, and for me it simply means that there are a lot of work should be done to make it better and bring something new for 2013 (if we'll survive the end of the World) In my view, scheme should encourage NCC members move to IPv6, in lightly manner of course )). 14.12.2011 12:15, LIR ?????: > Il 14/12/2011 07:56, Raymond Jetten ha scritto: >> >> A large ISP does not neccesarily demand more work from the RIPE NCC >> then a starting one, usually they (small ones) need more guidance in >> the beginning. Also large ISP:s may have larger (amounts of) customers >> then a small isp. We are paying for RIPE NCC membership services, not >> solely for IP:s (imho) > So this can be true for first years, not for life. Would more fair to > put on same level all ISP after some years (but no more than three). > >> Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will >> become more expensive, also situations is different countries >> (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the >> same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the >> price has gone up? > When I fill up my car I do not pay gasoline depending on the year I > bought my car. > > Regards, > > Tonino > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- ~#~ Don't hesitate to make High Grade, just communicate! ~#~ Dmitry Samko, Network Engineer IT Department, AQUAFON-GSM Abkhazia, Sukhum ================ dsamko at aquafon.com +7 940 9980117 From erik at bais.name Wed Dec 14 10:44:53 2011 From: erik at bais.name (Erik Bais) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:44:53 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> Message-ID: <3D7F7C92CA8EEF458B7AC7BACD7D619102F1946D519F@EXVS002.netsourcing.lan> Hi Tonino, >> Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will > > become more expensive, also situations is different countries >> (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the >> same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the >> price has gone up? > >When I fill up my car I do not pay gasoline depending on the year I bought my car. > > Regards, > > Tonino Maybe not based on the year you bought the car but most current car engines are far more efficient than a Pontiac Firebird with a V8 engine from 1969. Obviously you can debate if you want to go for a gasoline guzzler like a Firebird with a V8 or a more current model like a Hummer for instance. But you could also decide to move to something more fuel efficient like some kind of Hybrid. And simple economics show that with the fuel prices going up, more people will most likely go to a Hybrid like solution to avoid or lower that cost and the market for the Hummer will move away. (And yes I know that they already stopped building the Hummer.) So back on the topic, I work for a small LIR that was also upgraded (from Small to Medium). The question is will having more IP's increase the revenue (or revenue changes)? This particular LIR started early 2010, has 2 v4 prefixes and 1 v6 and an AS. Not having those resources, would not allow us to grow or do the business. Is this unfair as 'older' LIR don't get upgraded so fast? ( Besides that fact that I personally don't like a discussion where people talk about what is unfair because they missed the boat in the late 90's or early 00's and are hoping to get a benefit because they started later in the game ... ) I don't think that the current system is biased or unfair, as after 2 years we're upgraded to Medium and an ISP company that I worked for in 2002-2005, with a similar number of resources, is also still a Medium LIR. We're having similar number of total resources (in total between a /17 and /16 in the number of v4 addresses). So after 2 years, we are on a similar cost structure (638 euro per quarter) as a company that started about 12 years ago. Requiring the resources, means that there is a business case and that you have the customers for it. Personally I would say, skip the resource counting. Everybody is equal regardless of size or year of establishment and everyone pays the same membership fee (which in that case would end up around 2450 euro a year for each LIR.) Regards, Erik Bais From mschramm at ospas.de Wed Dec 14 10:27:38 2011 From: mschramm at ospas.de (Manfred F. Schramm) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:27:38 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> Message-ID: <902127058A5B3F41974A507C122CB14A01589104CB66@echse.wesel.ospas.local> Hi all, > (compared the day you fill in the gasoline to your car) i really do not like these comparisms. Consumed IP-addresses are not irretrievably consumed like fuel is. You can tend to the opinion 'once claimed always claimed', no new monetary assessment. You can also tend to the opinion 'each loaned IP-Range is to be regarded equally, whether newly assigned or assigned years ago'. What i can understand is some members 'feeling', the elder members did some 'protection of establishment'. Gr??e aus dem sch?nen Wesel, Manfred F. Schramm From poty at iiat.ru Wed Dec 14 10:55:00 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (poty at iiat.ru) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:55:00 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:41 AM To: paolo.difrancesco at level7.it Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > Well, if the new 2012 charging?scheme was processed, then it will be based on amount of resource we are using. The 2012 had several bad and quite unfair flaws in many sides of its preparing procedure, its structure and the undercarpet considerations - that is why it didn't see support. >if IP's price goes up, it not only benefits the new comer who got the IP but also >the old ones who already had the IP. If everybody is holding something has same value, >why one party should be paying more while another should be paying less. It's not so easy. I think you do not understand the scheme correctly. "old" LIRs if they want to get a block would be counted in the same way as newcomers for the block, so the fairness of getting addresses is better in the scheme. On the other hand - if the minimal block in "old" times was /16 and the then-new LIR got it and it is still enough or even not used even close to fully - it's unfair to punish the LIR. Many best practices at the time was not so flexible as now - and it led to "waste" in modern point of view, but it's very difficult to change the assignments now (initial criteria is still met) - why the LIR should suffer? Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From erik at bais.name Wed Dec 14 10:56:23 2011 From: erik at bais.name (Erik Bais) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:56:23 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] [#27119] PrivateLayer ticketsystem still on the RIPE members-discuss list ... Message-ID: <3D7F7C92CA8EEF458B7AC7BACD7D619102F1946D51A1@EXVS002.netsourcing.lan> Dear members-discuss moderator / list owner / maintainer, Is it possible to simple remove everyone from Privatelayer from the list, for still having their ticketsystem on the list? And if possible, please do so. The time they had to fix this is insane and if they would actually be reading the list (or their own created tickets.), they could have fixed it months ago. Kind regards, Erik Bais -----Original Message----- From: support at privatelayer.com [mailto:support at privatelayer.com] Sent: woensdag 14 december 2011 10:46 To: Erik Bais Subject: [#27119] Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Dear Valued Private Layer Customer, Our tech support department has received your message in good order and we have assigned a ticket number to your request. The ticket number assigned is: 27119. We are reviewing your ticket and will reply to it shortly. Best Regards, Private Layer INC Tech Support Department support at privatelayer.com From comunicaciones at acotelsa.com Wed Dec 14 11:18:05 2011 From: comunicaciones at acotelsa.com (Comunicaciones ACOTELSA) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:18:05 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c401ccba49$ab69d340$023d79c0$@acotelsa.com> Speak about the fee is losing the time. RIPE is a foundation, with non profit, but now, when the IPv4 is full and there are a global economic problem, RIPE impose the fee with an increase. And I don?t like speak about the general meetings to deal the new charge scheme because in my enterprise, with only one /26 IPv4, we can?t pay the cost to go to the general meeting (travel, salary) and I and imagine that there are more like us so only the big enterprise can assist, negotiate and vote (although we can use the internet vote). They are the lobby that will have benefit over the small enterprise that will have problems to continue with the IP/Internet business and it will increase their clients. In resume, I can't understand why a foundation increase its expenses year over year. It?s an opinion, and after all, a modest opinion. Saludos... =========================================== Luis ?ngel Lozano Aparicio Comunicaciones y Seguridad Grupo Acotel e-mail: comunicaciones at acotelsa.com ------------------------------------------ Tlf: 983 440274 - 902 194273 Fax:983 548220 Oficina 201 - Edificio Galileo, m?dulo Rojo Parque Tecnol?gico de Boecillo 47151 Boecillo (Valladolid) - Espa?a =========================================== -----Mensaje original----- De: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] En nombre de poty at iiat.ru Enviado el: mi?rcoles, 14 de diciembre de 2011 10:55 Para: h.lu at outsideheaven.com; paolo.difrancesco at level7.it CC: members-discuss at ripe.net Asunto: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:41 AM To: paolo.difrancesco at level7.it Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > Well, if the new 2012 charging?scheme was processed, then it will be based on amount of resource we are using. The 2012 had several bad and quite unfair flaws in many sides of its preparing procedure, its structure and the undercarpet considerations - that is why it didn't see support. >if IP's price goes up, it not only benefits the new comer who got the >IP but also the old ones who already had the IP. If everybody is >holding something has same value, why one party should be paying more while another should be paying less. It's not so easy. I think you do not understand the scheme correctly. "old" LIRs if they want to get a block would be counted in the same way as newcomers for the block, so the fairness of getting addresses is better in the scheme. On the other hand - if the minimal block in "old" times was /16 and the then-new LIR got it and it is still enough or even not used even close to fully - it's unfair to punish the LIR. Many best practices at the time was not so flexible as now - and it led to "waste" in modern point of view, but it's very difficult to change the assignments now (initial criteria is still met) - why the LIR should suffer? Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Mensaje analizado por el sistema de deteccion de virus y antispam de ACOTEL. El hecho de que dicho mensaje haya sido tratado NO excluye que pueda contener virus no catalogados a fecha de hoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Message analyzed by the Antispam-Virus Detection System at ACOTEL. The fact tha this message has passed analysis does not exclude the posibility of being infected by an undetected virus. Protecci?n de Datos: ACOTELSA le informa de que los datos facilitados por Ud. y utilizados para el env?o de esta comunicaci?n ser?n objeto de tratamiento automatizado o no en nuestros ficheros, con la finalidad de gestionar la agenda de contactos de nuestra empresa y para el env?o de comunicaciones profesionales por cualquier medio electr?nico o no. Vd. podr? en cualquier momento ejercer el derecho de acceso, rectificaci?n, cancelaci?n y oposici?n en los t?rminos establecidos en la Ley Org?nica 15/1999. El responsable del tratamiento es ACOTELSA, con domicilio en Ronda de Poniente, 3 bajo, 28760 Tres Cantos, Madrid. Confidencialidad El contenido de esta comunicaci?n, as? como el de toda la documentaci?n anexa, es confidencial y va dirigido ?nicamente al destinatario del mismo. En el supuesto de que usted no fuera el destinatario, le solicitamos que nos lo indique y no comunique su contenido a terceros, procediendo a su destrucci?n. Gracias. Confidenciality The content of this communication and any attached information is confidential and exclusively for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, we ask you to notify to the sender and do not pass its content to another person, and please be sure you destroy it. Thank you. From mmaggi at labgroup.com Wed Dec 14 09:51:17 2011 From: mmaggi at labgroup.com (Michel Maggi) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:51:17 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> Message-ID: <2A5D9B337A8609449DCFA93D0C97D2560A8408@LN-EXCHMBX-01.labnet.lu> Do we enter a philosophical contest here ? What are the charges upgrade between super small and small then ? That is concrete at least ? -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sven Wiese Sent: 14 December 2011 09:30 To: LIR Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Hi, On Dec 14, 2011, at 10:15 AM, LIR wrote: >> Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will >> become more expensive, also situations is different countries >> (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the >> same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the >> price has gone up? > > When I fill up my car I do not pay gasoline depending on the year I > bought my car. you also don't pay the resources you take on the year you created your company (compared as when you bought the car), rather you pay the resource based on the year you obtained the resource (compared the day you fill in the gasoline to your car). The only difference is, gasoline you have to refill again and again and so it goes more and more expensive. The resource is permanent and won't get more expensive (depends on charging scheme). Cheers, Sven ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. Our companies Lab are data/document management specialists, who hold the internationally recognized ISO 9001:2008 certification. As a professional of the financial sector ("Professionnel du Secteur Financier"), we are supervised by the Luxembourg Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF).We have been established in Luxembourg for over 30 years and currently service over 400 clients. Visit our websites: http://www.labgroup.com NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. From gert at space.net Wed Dec 14 11:20:28 2011 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:20:28 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <00c401ccba49$ab69d340$023d79c0$@acotelsa.com> References: <00c401ccba49$ab69d340$023d79c0$@acotelsa.com> Message-ID: <20111214102028.GH72014@Space.Net> Hi, On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:18:05AM +0100, Comunicaciones ACOTELSA wrote: > And I don?t like speak about the general meetings to deal the new charge > scheme because in my enterprise, with only one /26 IPv4, we can?t pay the > cost to go to the general meeting (travel, salary) Bullshit. The meeting is webcast, and voting is available electronically. So the cost is "a few hours of bothering". [..] > In resume, I can't understand why a foundation increase its expenses year > over year. The number of members is still increasing year by year, and thus increasing the workload. Just to name one thing. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From jblessing at llnw.com Wed Dec 14 11:32:47 2011 From: jblessing at llnw.com (James Blessing) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:32:47 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <902127058A5B3F41974A507C122CB14A01589104CB66@echse.wesel.ospas.local> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <4EE85B33.6060705@lanto.it> <766958A8-C471-459B-A843-7438DBBB332A@trabia.net> <902127058A5B3F41974A507C122CB14A01589104CB66@echse.wesel.ospas.local> Message-ID: <4EE87B4F.8010101@llnw.com> On 14/12/2011 09:27, Manfred F. Schramm wrote: > You can tend to the opinion 'once claimed always claimed', no new monetary assessment. > You can also tend to the opinion 'each loaned IP-Range is to be regarded equally, whether newly assigned or assigned years ago'. > > What i can understand is some members 'feeling', the elder members did some 'protection of establishment'. The proposed (and counter proposed) fee structures for 2012 did try and address this by taking out the time limitations but the membership (or at least those that voted) did not believe that the final proposed fee structure was acceptable and therefore the 2011 one was re-used. The NCC board (I believe) have taken these views on board and are looking to propose a new structure for 2013 that addresses this issue, tries to tie membership fees to 'size' more accurately and also provides a fully costed breakdown of the individual elements in the activity plan for 2013. They will also have to take into account the tax implications of changing the charging structure. The membership will have plenty of time to read and respond to these documents when published and vote on them next year. If you have strong views or wish to publish your own ideas for a charging scheme I'm sure the NCC board (and the rest of the membership) will be willing to discuss them (or tear them to pieces as the mood dictates). J -- James Blessing +44 7989 039 476 Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA Limelight Networks From poty at iiat.ru Wed Dec 14 11:35:17 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (poty at iiat.ru) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:35:17 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- > bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Comunicaciones ACOTELSA > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:18 PM > To: members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > ... > > And I don?t like speak about the general meetings to deal the new > charge scheme because in my enterprise, with only one /26 IPv4, we > can?t pay the cost to go to the general meeting (travel, salary) and I > and imagine that there are more like us so only the big enterprise can > assist, negotiate and vote (although we can use the internet vote). Yes! You knew this! Why you don't use your vote rights through the Internet then? It doesn't rise you expenses and you have had the full ability to vote for all questions since this year! Many LIRs got the opportunity at the last meeting. Our company can't (like yours) go to each general meeting, but I took every opportunity for 3 year already to vote electronically! > > In resume, I can't understand why a foundation increase its expenses > year over year. If you don't take part in the community discussions and don't vote - you'll never know why. You can read all about last GM and learn that for the coming year RIPE NCC will publish expenses in more details. You can suggest to eliminate an activity to lower the overall cost and if you have support - the increases may stop! Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From h.lu at anytimechinese.com Wed Dec 14 12:55:17 2011 From: h.lu at anytimechinese.com (Lu Heng) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:55:17 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, if the new 2012 charging scheme was processed, then it will be based on amount of resource we are using. Otherwise, as new comer(we too.), we pay more than old ones. it does make for new start-up more difficult in some ways, and protected the old ones. as the argument that the time the Lir have got the IP address which then it was "cheaper", doesn't really stand on it's ground, because today, the new IP and old IP has same value. For example, if you have 1Million dollar by 1990, if you kept till today at home, you still spend the money as it is today's 1 million dollar, but not the real money converted to today's value(which will be way more than 1M due to inflation). The same goes for IP, if IP's price goes up, it not only benefits the new comer who got the IP but also the old ones who already had the IP. If everybody is holding something has same value, why one party should be paying more while another should be paying less. I had a discussion with one of Ripe people, we also both think that Ripe might should be charging member based on amount of IP they are using(which is "real fair"), but they cannot do it. I don't know if everybody realize this: Most large company spend less on their millions IP than their coffees(Think of that, in per IP costs term, the one in extra large are paying 5500 Euro for about 10 million IPs, which means 0.00000055 Euro/Ip/year for them, while for small ones around 50 cents/ip/year, which is almost 1 million times more expensive than what the large ones paying). So the solution might be raise the "large" member's fee and lower small member's fee, which was exactly what charging scheme was trying to do. My personal opinion on the new charging scheme, it just was not raise enough for the extra large ones. otherwise it will get pass:) But on the other side of the story, I mean the current fees are only few thousands euro a year, it is less costs then anything else in your business, your server, you data center, your peering, it is almost the cheapest thing in this business, I do think ripe is very efficiency organization based on what amount of resource it's managing. Even though I do think it might not be very fair for most small ones and new comers, but personally I complaint on something already happened might not be a very good idea, it might be more worth to spend more than discuss the 2013's charging scheme will looks like. See if we can get more fair this time:) Lu On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:35 AM, wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss- > > bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Comunicaciones ACOTELSA > > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 2:18 PM > > To: members-discuss at ripe.net > > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > > > ... > > > > And I don?t like speak about the general meetings to deal the new > > charge scheme because in my enterprise, with only one /26 IPv4, we > > can?t pay the cost to go to the general meeting (travel, salary) and I > > and imagine that there are more like us so only the big enterprise can > > assist, negotiate and vote (although we can use the internet vote). > Yes! You knew this! Why you don't use your vote rights through the > Internet then? It doesn't rise you expenses and you have had the full > ability to vote for all questions since this year! Many LIRs got the > opportunity at the last meeting. Our company can't (like yours) go to each > general meeting, but I took every opportunity for 3 year already to vote > electronically! > > > > > In resume, I can't understand why a foundation increase its expenses > > year over year. > If you don't take part in the community discussions and don't vote - > you'll never know why. You can read all about last GM and learn that for > the coming year RIPE NCC will publish expenses in more details. You can > suggest to eliminate an activity to lower the overall cost and if you have > support - the increases may stop! > > Regards, > Vladislav Potapov > Ru.iiat > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > -- -- Kind regards. Lu This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hakan at acikisp.com Wed Dec 14 11:33:28 2011 From: hakan at acikisp.com (hakan hn. nebioglu) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:33:28 +0200 (EET) Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE87B4F.8010101@llnw.com> Message-ID: <5e26acee-5980-4291-86c6-fcd1763e14a4@ehosting.teklan.com.tr> up to now.. i have never spoken... i do now...!!! this guys are working at the edge.. it must be hot on the side of the sun... ip addresses getting low. and nobody concieve ip 6... it is a hard world...or whatever.. i WILL pay my price.. and i advice u must do the same.. thanks ripe.tahnks for everything...... ps:i am 50 years old..pls stand stiil...and be thankfull.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blessing" To: members-discuss at ripe.net Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 12:32:47 PM Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees On 14/12/2011 09:27, Manfred F. Schramm wrote: > You can tend to the opinion 'once claimed always claimed', no new monetary assessment. > You can also tend to the opinion 'each loaned IP-Range is to be regarded equally, whether newly assigned or assigned years ago'. > > What i can understand is some members 'feeling', the elder members did some 'protection of establishment'. The proposed (and counter proposed) fee structures for 2012 did try and address this by taking out the time limitations but the membership (or at least those that voted) did not believe that the final proposed fee structure was acceptable and therefore the 2011 one was re-used. The NCC board (I believe) have taken these views on board and are looking to propose a new structure for 2013 that addresses this issue, tries to tie membership fees to 'size' more accurately and also provides a fully costed breakdown of the individual elements in the activity plan for 2013. They will also have to take into account the tax implications of changing the charging structure. The membership will have plenty of time to read and respond to these documents when published and vote on them next year. If you have strong views or wish to publish your own ideas for a charging scheme I'm sure the NCC board (and the rest of the membership) will be willing to discuss them (or tear them to pieces as the mood dictates). J -- James Blessing +44 7989 039 476 Strategic Relations Manager, EMEA Limelight Networks ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From nigel at titley.com Wed Dec 14 14:58:41 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:58:41 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force Message-ID: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Dear all, at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our members. We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, two Board members and a maximum of four members. I have included the proposed charter of the task force, so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. Looking forward to the results, Best regards, Nigel Titley Chairman RIPE NCC Executive Board ----- Introduction In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last General Meeting. To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. Objectives of the Task Force The Task Force will have the following objectives: - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions and adoption - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the General Meeting in April 2011 The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. Participants of the Task Force To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety of member groups. The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) Timeframe Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. From h.lu at outsideheaven.com Wed Dec 14 15:02:50 2011 From: h.lu at outsideheaven.com (Lu Heng) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:02:50 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: Hi Nigel: As a new comer and a company have been recently joined higher level of membership, I would like to join to task force as a member, and I might have some voice for people recently joined(in last 5 years) as well as some middle to small sized company. I would very appreciated if you can consider my application. With regards. Lu On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Nigel Titley wrote: > Dear all, > > at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed > to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of > the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. > > Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE > NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our > members. > > We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would > like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important > task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, > two Board members and a maximum of four members. > > I have included the proposed charter of the task force, > so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. > > You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more > than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. > > Looking forward to the results, > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > Chairman > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > > ----- > > Introduction > In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board > have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging > Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss > mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of > opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a > different model having taken feedback into account. After further > extensive discussion > and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last > General Meeting. > > To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a > future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a > Task Force, > representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. > > Objectives of the Task Force > > The Task Force will have the following objectives: > > - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme > - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme > discussions > and adoption > - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders > - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the > General Meeting in April 2011 > > The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. > > Participants of the Task Force > To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. > The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves > forward, > have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety > of member groups. > The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: > > - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima > - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov > - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) > > Timeframe > Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to > Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > -- This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this message and including the text of the transmission received. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erik at bais.name Wed Dec 14 15:11:38 2011 From: erik at bais.name (Erik Bais) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:11:38 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <3D7F7C92CA8EEF458B7AC7BACD7D619102F1946D51AB@EXVS002.netsourcing.lan> Hi Nigel, I would like to assist in this task force. Regards, Erik Bais -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Nigel Titley Sent: woensdag 14 december 2011 14:59 To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force Dear all, at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our members. We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, two Board members and a maximum of four members. I have included the proposed charter of the task force, so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. Looking forward to the results, Best regards, Nigel Titley Chairman RIPE NCC Executive Board ----- Introduction In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last General Meeting. To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. Objectives of the Task Force The Task Force will have the following objectives: - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions and adoption - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the General Meeting in April 2011 The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. Participants of the Task Force To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety of member groups. The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima - RIPE NCC Executive Board - Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) Timeframe Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From s.wiese at trabia.net Wed Dec 14 15:18:23 2011 From: s.wiese at trabia.net (Sven Wiese) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:18:23 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <35BD744C-041A-4AEE-B5EC-538C608011A2@trabia.net> Hello Nigel, as a relative new member of the RIPE NCC (1,5 years) but with large experience (worked for other LIR's in the past) I would like to join the task force and help where it's needed. Cheers, Sven On 14 Dec 2011, at 15:58 , Nigel Titley wrote: > at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed > to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of > the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. > > Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE > NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our > members. > > We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would > like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important > task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, > two Board members and a maximum of four members. > > I have included the proposed charter of the task force, > so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. > > You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more > than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. From nigel at titley.com Wed Dec 14 16:24:15 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:24:15 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <4EE8BF9F.3050402@titley.com> And I'm delighted to report that the Private Layer Sentient Ticket Robot has also volunteered and will be representing non-humanoid (and possibly non-sentient) members of the RIPE NCC. Nigel From cfriacas at fccn.pt Wed Dec 14 19:40:52 2011 From: cfriacas at fccn.pt (Carlos Friacas) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:40:52 +0000 (WET) Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Nigel Titley wrote: >> Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? > > Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every > year. Hello, I've been a bit far from these issues, but as far as i understood, the charging scheme wasn't directly voted upon by members, right? Members voted on the Yearly Budget, and the charging scheme is just a subset of that, correct? It was not possible to approve the charging scheme, and at the same time (with a different cast of votes) reject the Budget, right? Regards, Carlos From jon at fido.net Wed Dec 14 20:11:56 2011 From: jon at fido.net (Jon Morby) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:11:56 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com>, Message-ID: <0C7FF9DF-9380-46C7-BAF5-C2B25A31DA37@fido.net> My understanding is that whilst we were voting on the charging scheme, most people were objecting to the budget and that's why it failed. The problem was that we couldnt vote on these individually .. And the down side is that the spending will continue regardless. On the day there were comments about just spending from reserves and that's what they were there for ... With an after thought mention of "we'll see if there is anywhere we can trim some fat" I specifically raised a budgetary question at the AGM re RPKI which was deflected and dropped before the vote so no-one had the information requested in advance of the vote (?1.6m spent to date on RPKI and more to come as it was voted through) etc. When quizzed on the budgets and why we had no costs we were told that the costs should have been included over the last few years but were omitted and a promise that they would be detailed for next year. I'm still not sure how/where we get to review these other than to reject another charging scheme and so on until reserves are spent. (which would be pointless). Hopefully someone will advise me. In other organisations I am a member of the budget is always voted on at the AGM. If it fails then the previous years budget prevails until a consensus and EGM (or next AGM) agree the new budget. Staffing costs are of course the highest .. There were also flippant remarks about not needing approval for choosing the brand of coffee used in house but tbh that just shows in my mind how little consideration there is for our thoughts on the budget / etc (I don't care which brand of coffee they use, I do care how they spend our money overall however). The membership fees are small and almost irrelevant, the principal however is not .. And the additional resource fees add up to potentially a hell of a lot more both in ripe cost and the real cost of admin and compliance.... All at a time when our euro buys less and less .. Or in other words our costs are increasing and our profits being eroded. -- Jon Morby fido.net - the internet made simple! tel: 0845 004 3050 fax: 0845 004 3051 On 14 Dec 2011, at 18:58, "Carlos Friacas" wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Nigel Titley wrote: > >>> Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? >> >> Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every >> year. > > Hello, > > I've been a bit far from these issues, but as far as i understood, the > charging scheme wasn't directly voted upon by members, right? > Members voted on the Yearly Budget, and the charging scheme is just a > subset of that, correct? > It was not possible to approve the charging scheme, and at the same time > (with a different cast of votes) reject the Budget, right? > > > Regards, > Carlos > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From jon at fido.net Wed Dec 14 20:17:24 2011 From: jon at fido.net (Jon Morby) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:17:24 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> Message-ID: <6C14B3A7-D5AA-4800-B4BA-CD6584FD7655@fido.net> -- Jon Morby FidoNet - the internet made simple! 10 - 16 Tiller Road, London, E14 8PX tel: 0845 004 3050 / fax: 0845 004 3051 On 14 Dec 2011, at 06:56, Raymond Jetten wrote: Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will become more expensive, also situations is different countries (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the price has gone up? yes and there have been strikes, blockades and even riots complaining about these price increases (and the 90% tax imposed by Government) ... at the end of the day the politicians seem to ignore these complaints, gloss over them and go back to their heavily subsidised bar with low priced drinks and free transportation ... Hopefully the board of RIPE will not treat these objections in the same light and will look to find a way of providing the same core services at a reduction in spending rather than at an increase this year / next year..... (and maybe even look at returning some of the reserves to us as members) Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From network at privatelayer.com Wed Dec 14 22:53:49 2011 From: network at privatelayer.com (network at privatelayer.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:53:49 -0500 Subject: [members-discuss] [#27249] Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: <9fed636ea729c803bb0fa7b7121ad6fc@support.privatelayer.com> Jon, We never asked to join this list anyway. Please remove us from as it is creating SPAM in our ticket system. James Prado Private Layer INC From Bill.Lewis at Kijoma.co.uk Thu Dec 15 00:27:00 2011 From: Bill.Lewis at Kijoma.co.uk (Bill Lewis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:27:00 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] [#27249] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <9fed636ea729c803bb0fa7b7121ad6fc@support.privatelayer.com> References: <9fed636ea729c803bb0fa7b7121ad6fc@support.privatelayer.com> Message-ID: O RLY? Bill Lewis Kijoma Broadband On 14/12/2011 21:53, network at privatelayer.com wrote: > Jon, > > We never asked to join this list anyway. Please remove us from as it is creating SPAM in our ticket system. > > James Prado > Private Layer INC > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From mark at tuxis.nl Thu Dec 15 07:48:36 2011 From: mark at tuxis.nl (Mark Schouten) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 07:48:36 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] [#27249] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <9fed636ea729c803bb0fa7b7121ad6fc@support.privatelayer.com> References: <9fed636ea729c803bb0fa7b7121ad6fc@support.privatelayer.com> Message-ID: <4EE99844.8020007@tuxis.nl> On 12/14/2011 10:53 PM, network at privatelayer.com wrote: > We never asked to join this list anyway. Please remove us from as it is creating SPAM in our ticket system. Lol. As you can see in all these 'spam' messages in your spamming ticketsystem: > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. Seems odd to me. Subscribing your ticketsystem, ignoring requests to unsubscribe it and then classify these messages as spam. IIRC, it are the other members of this list that received spam from you. -- Mark Schouten | Tuxis Internet Engineering KvK: 09218193 | http://www.tuxis.nl/ T: 0318 200208 | info at tuxis.nl M: 06 53463918 | mark at tuxis.nl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 262 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From ulf.kieber at green.ch Wed Dec 14 18:14:29 2011 From: ulf.kieber at green.ch (Ulf Kieber) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:14:29 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <832D73409598DB4493DB85EF868165208270B8650C@EXMBSRV01.green-connection.ch> Nigel, I'd like to stand as a member of the task force as well. Best regards, Ulf Kieber -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Nigel Titley Sent: Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2011 14:59 To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force Dear all, at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our members. We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, two Board members and a maximum of four members. I have included the proposed charter of the task force, so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. Looking forward to the results, Best regards, Nigel Titley Chairman RIPE NCC Executive Board ----- Introduction In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last General Meeting. To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. Objectives of the Task Force The Task Force will have the following objectives: - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions and adoption - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the General Meeting in April 2011 The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. Participants of the Task Force To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety of member groups. The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima - RIPE NCC Executive Board - Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) Timeframe Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From info at kosmozz.be Thu Dec 15 09:55:20 2011 From: info at kosmozz.be (KOSMOZZ - Info) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:55:20 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <832D73409598DB4493DB85EF868165208270B8650C@EXMBSRV01.green-connection.ch> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> <832D73409598DB4493DB85EF868165208270B8650C@EXMBSRV01.green-connection.ch> Message-ID: You can count me in as a member of the task force. Filip Herman filip at kosmozz.be? KOSMOZZ -- http://www.kosmozz.be? | Member of Internet Service Providers Belgium (http://www.ispa.be) -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Ulf Kieber Sent: woensdag 14 december 2011 18:14 To: Nigel Titley; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force Nigel, I'd like to stand as a member of the task force as well. Best regards, Ulf Kieber -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Nigel Titley Sent: Mittwoch, 14. Dezember 2011 14:59 To: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force Dear all, at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our members. We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, two Board members and a maximum of four members. I have included the proposed charter of the task force, so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. Looking forward to the results, Best regards, Nigel Titley Chairman RIPE NCC Executive Board ----- Introduction In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last General Meeting. To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. Objectives of the Task Force The Task Force will have the following objectives: - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions and adoption - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the General Meeting in April 2011 The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. Participants of the Task Force To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety of member groups. The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima - RIPE NCC Executive Board - Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) Timeframe Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From lir at lanto.it Thu Dec 15 12:34:36 2011 From: lir at lanto.it (LIR) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:34:36 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <4EE9DB4C.4080503@lanto.it> I'm available to partecipate too... Regards, Antonio Nati Il 14/12/2011 14:58, Nigel Titley ha scritto: > Dear all, > > at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed > to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of > the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. > > Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE > NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our > members. > > We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would > like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important > task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, > two Board members and a maximum of four members. > > I have included the proposed charter of the task force, > so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. > > You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more > than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. > > Looking forward to the results, > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > Chairman > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > > ----- > > Introduction > In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board > have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging > Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss > mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of > opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a > different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion > and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last > General Meeting. > > To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a > future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, > representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. > > Objectives of the Task Force > > The Task Force will have the following objectives: > > - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme > - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions > and adoption > - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders > - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the > General Meeting in April 2011 > > The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. > > Participants of the Task Force > To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. > The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, > have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety > of member groups. > The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: > > - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima > - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov > - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) > > Timeframe > Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to > Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From phil at hitrail.com Thu Dec 15 12:43:32 2011 From: phil at hitrail.com (Phil Barton) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:43:32 -0000 Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <0C7FF9DF-9380-46C7-BAF5-C2B25A31DA37@fido.net> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com>, <0C7FF9DF-9380-46C7-BAF5-C2B25A31DA37@fido.net> Message-ID: <007301ccbb1e$c5f45980$51dd0c80$@com> Jon, a very sensible comment amongst a lot of trash. I agree the charging scheme and budget are not directly related - other than the total income and expenditure over a period should balance in a Not for Profit Organisation. The schema is just about how it is recovered - who pays what - not about how much is spent by the NPO. The board should note that this is a protest also over costs not necessarily just the charging for IP and in particular the practice of sub assigning IP addresses to customers and avoiding the charging scheme. However I have to say certainly the new Schema had been well debated over a long time and I personally feel vested interests stopped this when the majority were supportive or ambivalent. I have been a voluntary board member for many NPO organisations and the board should have avoided this. Most boards I have worked on do not necessarily ask for the budget to be voted on rather the work program (with costs) and the recovery, there being a trade off. In austerity days emphasis should always be about controlling costs - something RIPE are not good at. As long as charges are not going up people are happy. Our problem is the workload is increasing and the income is not keeping pace. Also by LAW people in Belgium have to receive a wage increase every 3 months in line with the Gezondheidsindex so we have to pay staff more. If people are not happy either change the board (again the vested interests always win because the little guys don?t get organised) or support them in that they are doing a difficult job unpaid for little thanks. Everyone can do a better job than them see all the e-mails (joke). I personally feel that while more could be done on cost control the Schema makes sense and the Board has done a good job. It's a pity the vested interests have delayed the control on the IP space another year so they can continue to profit. Phil Barton HITRAIL -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jon Morby Sent: 14 December 2011 19:12 To: Carlos Friacas Cc: Nigel Titley; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees My understanding is that whilst we were voting on the charging scheme, most people were objecting to the budget and that's why it failed. The problem was that we couldnt vote on these individually .. And the down side is that the spending will continue regardless. On the day there were comments about just spending from reserves and that's what they were there for ... With an after thought mention of "we'll see if there is anywhere we can trim some fat" I specifically raised a budgetary question at the AGM re RPKI which was deflected and dropped before the vote so no-one had the information requested in advance of the vote (?1.6m spent to date on RPKI and more to come as it was voted through) etc. When quizzed on the budgets and why we had no costs we were told that the costs should have been included over the last few years but were omitted and a promise that they would be detailed for next year. I'm still not sure how/where we get to review these other than to reject another charging scheme and so on until reserves are spent. (which would be pointless). Hopefully someone will advise me. In other organisations I am a member of the budget is always voted on at the AGM. If it fails then the previous years budget prevails until a consensus and EGM (or next AGM) agree the new budget. Staffing costs are of course the highest .. There were also flippant remarks about not needing approval for choosing the brand of coffee used in house but tbh that just shows in my mind how little consideration there is for our thoughts on the budget / etc (I don't care which brand of coffee they use, I do care how they spend our money overall however). The membership fees are small and almost irrelevant, the principal however is not .. And the additional resource fees add up to potentially a hell of a lot more both in ripe cost and the real cost of admin and compliance.... All at a time when our euro buys less and less .. Or in other words our costs are increasing and our profits being eroded. -- Jon Morby fido.net - the internet made simple! tel: 0845 004 3050 fax: 0845 004 3051 On 14 Dec 2011, at 18:58, "Carlos Friacas" wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Nigel Titley wrote: > >>> Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? >> >> Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every >> year. > > Hello, > > I've been a bit far from these issues, but as far as i understood, the > charging scheme wasn't directly voted upon by members, right? > Members voted on the Yearly Budget, and the charging scheme is just a > subset of that, correct? > It was not possible to approve the charging scheme, and at the same > time (with a different cast of votes) reject the Budget, right? > > > Regards, > Carlos > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4681 - Release Date: 12/14/11 From laurent.seror at outscale.com Thu Dec 15 13:25:21 2011 From: laurent.seror at outscale.com (Laurent Seror) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:25:21 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <007301ccbb1e$c5f45980$51dd0c80$@com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com> <0C7FF9DF-9380-46C7-BAF5-C2B25A31DA37@fido.net> <007301ccbb1e$c5f45980$51dd0c80$@com> Message-ID: Hello, I, for one, think that the RIPE is globally doing a very good job. They are available, their training are great and they do a very difficult work by managing this rare but mandatory ressources that are IPv4 addresses. You do not have to be LIR to obtain IP address, LIR is something that you add to your business because you think that it adds value, so you are ready to pay for it, and it is not a few hundred euros that will make a difference. It is a democratic organization, anyone can engage himself in its gouvernance and change the rules if needed. There is a lot of thing around us that we have to pay for, which are more expensive and less useful but, because we can not do anything about it, we just doesn't complain. We are lucky that IPv4 addresses are not provided by someone who do that only for profit... Laurent SEROR Outscale 2011/12/15 Phil Barton > Jon, a very sensible comment amongst a lot of trash. > I agree the charging scheme and budget are not directly related - other > than the total income and expenditure over a period should balance in a Not > for Profit Organisation. The schema is just about how it is recovered - who > pays what - not about how much is spent by the NPO. > The board should note that this is a protest also over costs not > necessarily just the charging for IP and in particular the practice of sub > assigning IP addresses to customers and avoiding the charging scheme. > However I have to say certainly the new Schema had been well debated over > a long time and I personally feel vested interests stopped this when the > majority were supportive or ambivalent. > I have been a voluntary board member for many NPO organisations and the > board should have avoided this. > Most boards I have worked on do not necessarily ask for the budget to be > voted on rather the work program (with costs) and the recovery, there being > a trade off. In austerity days emphasis should always be about controlling > costs - something RIPE are not good at. As long as charges are not going up > people are happy. Our problem is the workload is increasing and the income > is not keeping pace. Also by LAW people in Belgium have to receive a wage > increase every 3 months in line with the Gezondheidsindex so we have to pay > staff more. > > If people are not happy either change the board (again the vested > interests always win because the little guys don?t get organised) or > support them in that they are doing a difficult job unpaid for little > thanks. Everyone can do a better job than them see all the e-mails (joke). > I personally feel that while more could be done on cost control the Schema > makes sense and the Board has done a good job. It's a pity the vested > interests have delayed the control on the IP space another year so they can > continue to profit. > Phil Barton > HITRAIL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto: > members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Jon Morby > Sent: 14 December 2011 19:12 > To: Carlos Friacas > Cc: Nigel Titley; members-discuss at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees > > My understanding is that whilst we were voting on the charging scheme, > most people were objecting to the budget and that's why it failed. > > The problem was that we couldnt vote on these individually .. And the down > side is that the spending will continue regardless. > > On the day there were comments about just spending from reserves and > that's what they were there for ... With an after thought mention of "we'll > see if there is anywhere we can trim some fat" > > I specifically raised a budgetary question at the AGM re RPKI which was > deflected and dropped before the vote so no-one had the information > requested in advance of the vote (?1.6m spent to date on RPKI and more to > come as it was voted through) etc. > > When quizzed on the budgets and why we had no costs we were told that the > costs should have been included over the last few years but were omitted > and a promise that they would be detailed for next year. > > I'm still not sure how/where we get to review these other than to reject > another charging scheme and so on until reserves are spent. (which would be > pointless). Hopefully someone will advise me. In other organisations I am a > member of the budget is always voted on at the AGM. If it fails then the > previous years budget prevails until a consensus and EGM (or next AGM) > agree the new budget. > > Staffing costs are of course the highest .. There were also flippant > remarks about not needing approval for choosing the brand of coffee used in > house but tbh that just shows in my mind how little consideration there is > for our thoughts on the budget / etc (I don't care which brand of coffee > they use, I do care how they spend our money overall however). > > The membership fees are small and almost irrelevant, the principal however > is not .. And the additional resource fees add up to potentially a hell of > a lot more both in ripe cost and the real cost of admin and compliance.... > All at a time when our euro buys less and less .. Or in other words our > costs are increasing and our profits being eroded. > > -- > Jon Morby > fido.net - the internet made simple! > tel: 0845 004 3050 > fax: 0845 004 3051 > > On 14 Dec 2011, at 18:58, "Carlos Friacas" wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Nigel Titley wrote: > > > >>> Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? > >> > >> Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every > >> year. > > > > Hello, > > > > I've been a bit far from these issues, but as far as i understood, the > > charging scheme wasn't directly voted upon by members, right? > > Members voted on the Yearly Budget, and the charging scheme is just a > > subset of that, correct? > > It was not possible to approve the charging scheme, and at the same > > time (with a different cast of votes) reject the Budget, right? > > > > > > Regards, > > Carlos > > > > > > ---- > > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4681 - Release Date: 12/14/11 > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. -- Cordialement, Laurent SEROR, Pr?sident OUTSCALE T?l : 0826.206.307 - poste 101 Fax : 01.83.62.92.89 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paolo.difrancesco at level7.it Thu Dec 15 14:25:55 2011 From: paolo.difrancesco at level7.it (Paolo Di Francesco) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:25:55 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <4EE9F563.9010108@level7.it> Hi Nigel I would like to participate. Thank you > Dear all, > > at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed > to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of > the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. > > Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE > NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our > members. > > We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would > like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important > task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, > two Board members and a maximum of four members. > > I have included the proposed charter of the task force, > so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. > > You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more > than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. > > Looking forward to the results, > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > Chairman > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > > ----- > > Introduction > In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board > have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging > Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss > mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of > opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a > different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion > and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last > General Meeting. > > To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a > future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, > representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. > > Objectives of the Task Force > > The Task Force will have the following objectives: > > - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme > - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions > and adoption > - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders > - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the > General Meeting in April 2011 > > The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. > > Participants of the Task Force > To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. > The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, > have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety > of member groups. > The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: > > - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima > - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov > - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) > > Timeframe > Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to > Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > -- Ing. Paolo Di Francesco Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 Fax : +39-091-8772072 assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 web: http://www.level7.it From poty at iiat.ru Thu Dec 15 14:38:55 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (poty at iiat.ru) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:38:55 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Phil Barton Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:44 PM To: 'Jon Morby'; 'Carlos Friacas' Cc: 'Nigel Titley'; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees Disagree on many points here. You wrote: "I agree the charging scheme and budget are not directly related - other than the total income and expenditure over a period should balance in a Not for Profit Organisation. The schema is just about how it is recovered - who pays what - not about how much is spent by the NPO." Yes, they are related! And this (unnecessarily) hard relation was made by the RIPE NCC itself. RIPE community has to renew the schema very often just to cover new expenses and to patch holes in (bad) thought procedure. I've already ask several questions about the new Schema - just too lazy to repeat them once more -you can look at them in the archives. I add to this one more doc - Activity Plan, which after many years become an ancient book of community wills without any relation to the understanding how effectively RIPE NCC does all the activities it mentions. Then: "However I have to say certainly the new Schema had been well debated over a long time and I personally feel vested interests stopped this when the majority were supportive or ambivalent." I don't know where it was debated, but according to the present rules it MUST BE debated in the open way - in the mailing list. Prior to publishing the Schema there was no debates around it (and around the principles of changes which should be incorporated in it either)! The Schema was published late - not in July as Nigel said, but in August (look at the date in the RIPE NCC repository) and the underlying reasons were hidden for community until I think the end of September. The vested interests you've mentioned are fully irrelevant in the context. The Schema 2012 becomes very questionable as many LIRs jumps 2-3 categories up just having 1 (one) PI (or not having PI at all), I even haven't started to mention some very rude patches to show the strongest fight for greedy LIRs having huge profit using cheap chunks of PI, and another point - intrusion of tie-in sale of RIPE NCC services. Then: "Also by LAW people in Belgium have to receive a wage increase every 3 months in line with the Gezondheidsindex so we have to pay staff more." It's the country's problem, the RIPE NCC serves not only Belgium - why should people from other countries pay for it according Belgium law? Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From Andreas.Kaschner at telio.no Thu Dec 15 14:38:42 2011 From: Andreas.Kaschner at telio.no (Andreas Kaschner) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:38:42 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE9F563.9010108@level7.it> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> <4EE9F563.9010108@level7.it> Message-ID: Hi Nigel, count me in andreas On Dec 15, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Paolo Di Francesco wrote: > Hi Nigel > > I would like to participate. > > Thank you > >> Dear all, >> >> at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed >> to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of >> the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. >> >> Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE >> NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our >> members. >> >> We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would >> like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important >> task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, >> two Board members and a maximum of four members. >> >> I have included the proposed charter of the task force, >> so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. >> >> You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more >> than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. >> >> Looking forward to the results, >> >> Best regards, >> >> Nigel Titley >> Chairman >> RIPE NCC Executive Board >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> >> Introduction >> In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board >> have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging >> Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss >> mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of >> opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a >> different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion >> and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last >> General Meeting. >> >> To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a >> future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, >> representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. >> >> Objectives of the Task Force >> >> The Task Force will have the following objectives: >> >> - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme >> - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions >> and adoption >> - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders >> - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the >> General Meeting in April 2011 >> >> The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. >> >> Participants of the Task Force >> To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. >> The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, >> have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety >> of member groups. >> The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: >> >> - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima >> - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov >> - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) >> >> Timeframe >> Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to >> Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. >> >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> > > > -- > > > Ing. Paolo Di Francesco > > Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale > > Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo > > C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825 > Fax : +39-091-8772072 > assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432 > web: http://www.level7.it > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From jogi at mur.at Thu Dec 15 15:05:35 2011 From: jogi at mur.at (Jogi =?utf-8?Q?Hofm=C3=BCller?=) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:05:35 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <20111215140534.GA2460@pc3.office.mur.at> Dear Nigel et al, I have been a quiet member on most RIPE lists for more than five years now and represent one of the smaller members of RIPE NCC. I am interested in participating in this task force mainly because I would like to speak up for all the not-for-profit organisations that are RIPE NCC members. Regrads, j. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 01:58:41PM +0000, Nigel Titley wrote: > Dear all, > > at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed > to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of > the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. > > Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE > NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our > members. > > We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would > like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important > task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, > two Board members and a maximum of four members. > > I have included the proposed charter of the task force, > so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. > > You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more > than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. > > Looking forward to the results, > > Best regards, > > Nigel Titley > Chairman > RIPE NCC Executive Board > > > > > > ----- > > Introduction > In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board > have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging > Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss > mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of > opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a > different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion > and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last > General Meeting. > > To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a > future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, > representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. > > Objectives of the Task Force > > The Task Force will have the following objectives: > > - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme > - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions > and adoption > - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders > - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the > General Meeting in April 2011 > > The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. > > Participants of the Task Force > To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. > The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, > have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety > of member groups. > The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: > > - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima > - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov > - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) > > Timeframe > Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to > Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. > > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -- j.hofm?ller http://users.mur.at/thesix/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From phil at hitrail.com Thu Dec 15 14:59:04 2011 From: phil at hitrail.com (Phil Barton) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:59:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8f2d0795-26e4-4d41-9477-7ef6cd88785e@webserver.hitrail.com> Vladislav, 1. You contradict your own point. To raise more funds RIPE needed only to raise the prices in each category, not to change the basis of charging. The New Schema sought to change the basis of raising income by looking at other categories particularly the anomaly of PI's and is the reason for so many objections. It is a second issue that they raise income because of increased costs. In particular they wanted to bring the PI's into the formal scheme and have the users join RIPE. 2. I have been involved for 3 -4 years, not much time compared to others, but the proposals round the new schema were discussed at every event. Perhaps the way they were discussed were subtle but I understood what they were trying to do and why. The final proposal made was merely to formalise this. And no I do not keep all the mailings and documents, it is just the impression I built up from the sessions I attended and the mailings I read. 3. I may be mistaken on this point I thought RIPE were Belgium based and therefore if they were it was the price we paid for basing them there. But the point I make is Valid if salaries increase where our staff are based we have to pay more even (if in Russia as in the UK salaries in the corporate world are being held down). Decisions taken in other countries can affect the whole community look at the high Debt countries in the Eurozone and the immpact on the Euro. Just because one does not want it to be does not stop it. But it is the issues over PI's that is at the core of this and perhaps the new group will address this. We are a NPO. We joined RIPE to obtain our own IP addresses as the alternative to using PI's, so we of course tend to agree with the proposal. We raise one category in the new and old scheme because we now have a second allocation /21 as well as IPV6. If we did not ask for the second allocation we would remain at the smallest level. Perhaps the PI issue was sprung on some members and they should have been given time to adjust but also I think they shut their eyes to the wind of change presented at the meetings. As I say above 'Just because one does not want it to be does not stop it.' Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: poty at iiat.ru To: members-discuss at ripe.net Sent: Thursday, 15 December, 2011 1:38:55 PM Subject: Re: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Phil Barton Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:44 PM To: 'Jon Morby'; 'Carlos Friacas' Cc: 'Nigel Titley'; members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees Disagree on many points here. 1. You wrote: "I agree the charging scheme and budget are not directly related - other than the total income and expenditure over a period should balance in a Not for Profit Organisation. The schema is just about how it is recovered - who pays what - not about how much is spent by the NPO." Yes, they are related! And this (unnecessarily) hard relation was made by the RIPE NCC itself. RIPE community has to renew the schema very often just to cover new expenses and to patch holes in (bad) thought procedure. I've already ask several questions about the new Schema - just too lazy to repeat them once more -you can look at them in the archives. I add to this one more doc - Activity Plan, which after many years become an ancient book of community wills without any relation to the understanding how effectively RIPE NCC does all the activities it mentions. 2. Then: "However I have to say certainly the new Schema had been well debated over a long time and I personally feel vested interests stopped this when the majority were supportive or ambivalent." I don't know where it was debated, but according to the present rules it MUST BE debated in the open way - in the mailing list. Prior to publishing the Schema there was no debates around it (and around the principles of changes which should be incorporated in it either)! The Schema was published late - not in July as Nigel said, but in August (look at the date in the RIPE NCC repository) and the underlying reasons were hidden for community until I think the end of September. The vested interests you've mentioned are fully irrelevant in the context. The Schema 2012 becomes very questionable as many LIRs jumps 2-3 categories up just having 1 (one) PI (or not having PI at all), I even haven't started to mention some very rude patches to show the strongest fight for greedy LIRs having huge profit using cheap chunks of PI, and another point - intrusion of tie-in sale of RIPE NCC services. 3. Then: "Also by LAW people in Belgium have to receive a wage increase every 3 months in line with the Gezondheidsindex so we have to pay staff more." It's the country's problem, the RIPE NCC serves not only Belgium - why should people from other countries pay for it according Belgium law? Regards, Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From info at leadertelecom.ru Fri Dec 16 07:16:00 2011 From: info at leadertelecom.ru (LeaderTelecom Ltd.) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:16:00 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] [Ticket#2011121401001857] Invitation to participate in the Charging Scheme Task Force In-Reply-To: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> References: <4EE8AB91.40200@titley.com> Message-ID: <1324016160.778374.529348658.166435.12@otrs.hostingconsult.ru> Dear Nigel, As per your request for volunteers to work in the Task Force, I?m sending to you my message. Name: Olga Fomina E-mail: info at leadertelecom.ru RegID: ru.leadertelecom Kind regards, Olga Fomina LeaderTelecom Ltd. --? ??? ?????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ? ???? ??????. --? ? ?????????, ???????????? ? ??????? ??????? ?? ????????????????? ??? "????????????" ? ???.: 8(495)778-98-51 *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ? ??????????? ????? ????? ? ??????????! *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ? URL: [1]http://www.InstantSSL.su/ - SSL-??????????? Comodo URL: ?[2]http://verisign.su/?- SSL-??????????? Verisign URL: [3]http://www.HostingConsult.ru/ - ???????? ?????, IP-?????? ? AS 14.12.2011 18:08 - Nigel Titley ???????(?): Dear all, at the RIPE NCC Board Meeting, last Thursday, we agreed to set up a small task force, to work on a successor of the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme. Apart from members from the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff, we are looking for representatives from our members. We know some of you are interested in the topic, and would like to encourage you to volunteer to work on this important task. The composition of the task force will be two RIPE NCC staff members, two Board members and a maximum of four members. I have included the proposed charter of the task force, so that you know what you are getting yourselves into. You can reply either directly to me or to the list or both. If we get more than four volunteers then four will be chosen randomly. Looking forward to the results, Best regards, Nigel Titley Chairman RIPE NCC Executive Board ----- Introduction In the course of 2011 the RIPE NCC Management and the RIPE NCC Board have put in a lot of effort to propose a new, future proof Charging Scheme. Several proposals were announced to the members-discuss mailing list in July and after extensive discussion with a variety of opinions and new models, the Executive Board decided to propose a different model having taken feedback into account. After further extensive discussion and comments, this model was voted down by the membership at the last General Meeting. To improve the Charging Scheme process and to get broader input on a future Charging Scheme model the Executive Board has decided to create a Task Force, representing different groups within the RIPE NCC organisation. Objectives of the Task Force The Task Force will have the following objectives: - Define the principles of a future Charging Scheme - Propose an improved process for the annual Charging Scheme discussions and adoption - Set a pricing structure for several years for Legacy holders - Advise the Executive Board on a discussion or resolution for the General Meeting in April 2011 The Task Force will not discuss or set any actual fees or prices. Participants of the Task Force To have an efficient task force the group will have to be limited in size. The Executive Board has selected key individuals that have put themselves forward, have good understanding of the Charging Scheme and represent a variety of member groups. The group will consist of participants from 3 groups namely: - RIPE NCC staff - Jochem de Ruig, Andrea Cima - RIPE NCC Executive Board ? Remco van Mook, Dmitry Burkov - RIPE NCC members (4 representatives) Timeframe Several meetings/phone conferences in Q1 2012, send draft proposal to Board ahead of the General Meeting in April 2012. ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: [4]https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. [1] http://www.InstantSSL.su/ [2] http://verisign.su/ [3] http://www.HostingConsult.ru/ [4] https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poty at iiat.ru Fri Dec 16 08:52:19 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (poty at iiat.ru) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:52:19 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Phil Barton Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:59 PM To: Potapov Vladislav Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] {Spam?} RE: Surprise on renew fees "1. You contradict your own point. To raise more funds RIPE needed only to raise the prices in each category, not to change the basis of charging. The New Schema sought to change the basis of raising income by looking at other categories particularly the anomaly of PI's and is the reason for so many objections. It is a second issue that they raise income because of increased costs. In particular they wanted to bring the PI's into the formal scheme and have the users join RIPE." I don't think I contradict my own point. The schema must be stable. The only change we've seen up to now is the start of the IPv6 deployment which was already reflected in 2008 version. PI is here for many years. The fact that the RIPE NCC driven by some populism and based on some lobby managed to adopt the ill-conceived changes to the Schema in 2008 doesn't mean they did good job. For example, ASns at once became "special" and bring money of course, PIs - on the terms of dictated agreements and so on. It is this change that led to "anomaly of PI's". The way they tried to patch it in Schema 2012 is rude, poorly thought-out, unfair and punish more members which don't have such anomalies than the real guilty LIRs (and not LIRs). PIs become a sin, burdened with the double payment and very much involved in the side effect of shifting up in categories badly. But - you know - As soon as the community have voted we don't have the rights to blame it for its decision. "2. I have been involved for 3 -4 years, not much time compared to others, but the proposals round the new schema were discussed at every event. Perhaps the way they were discussed were subtle but I understood what they were trying to do and why. The final proposal made was merely to formalise this. And no I do not keep all the mailings and documents, it is just the impression I built up from the sessions I attended and the mailings I read." The policy process, especially in the world of finances, should be clear and open in the form of membership the RIPE NCC in. "Impressions", subtle moving, personal and other hidden ways of determining the policy - is very uneasy for most members which they showed at the last general meeting. As other RIPE policies the Schema must be discussed in the mailing list together with the principles and concerns it solves. And it MUST be stable for several years while there is no changes in the horizon! It doesn't mean no rises, but the schema itself must not be changed. "3. I may be mistaken on this point I thought RIPE were Belgium based and therefore if they were it was the price we paid for basing them there. But the point I make is Valid if salaries increase where our staff are based we have to pay more even (if in Russia as in the UK salaries in the corporate world are being held down). Decisions taken in other countries can affect the whole community look at the high Debt countries in the Eurozone and the immpact on the Euro. Just because one does not want it to be does not stop it." No it is Dutch-based. But you know - if there are international agreements involved it is not only one-side law that counts. "But it is the issues over PI's that is at the core of this and perhaps the new group will address this. We are a NPO. We joined RIPE to obtain our own IP addresses as the alternative to using PI's, so we of course tend to agree with the proposal. We raise one category in the new and old scheme because we now have a second allocation /21 as well as IPV6. If we did not ask for the second allocation we would remain at the smallest level." I can say that you are wrong at the point. It is easy to count according the document. But may I ask question about mentioned in the Schema "services"? Do you use them? "Perhaps the PI issue was sprung on some members and they should have been given time to adjust but also I think they shut their eyes to the wind of change presented at the meetings." The general meeting showed that the wind of change is not in the interests of the member. We are not thoughtless sailer - we can go against wrong tendencies. Vladislav Potapov Ru.iiat From nigel at titley.com Fri Dec 16 17:59:22 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 16:59:22 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A6CB.8070905@llnw.com> <4EE7D130.4010801@lanto.it> <4EE7D5D4.9060002@titley.com> <4EE7DE47.1020608@lanto.it> <4EE7E91D.4060402@titley.com> Message-ID: <4EEB78EA.1050400@titley.com> On 14/12/11 18:40, Carlos Friacas wrote: > On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Nigel Titley wrote: > >>> Which is the reason? There was a public vote with a public result? >> Yes. The charging scheme is always voted on by the membership, every >> year. > Hello, > > I've been a bit far from these issues, but as far as i understood, the > charging scheme wasn't directly voted upon by members, right? > Members voted on the Yearly Budget, and the charging scheme is just a > subset of that, correct? > It was not possible to approve the charging scheme, and at the same time > (with a different cast of votes) reject the Budget, right? > No, the members only vote on the charging scheme, they don't vote on the budget. The members *used* to vote on and approve the budget but they voluntarily and pretty near unanimously voted to give up this power several years ago. Nigel From nigel at titley.com Fri Dec 16 18:10:39 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:10:39 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <6C14B3A7-D5AA-4800-B4BA-CD6584FD7655@fido.net> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com> <4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl> <4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it> <6C14B3A7-D5AA-4800-B4BA-CD6584FD7655@fido.net> Message-ID: <4EEB7B8F.4000703@titley.com> On 14/12/11 19:17, Jon Morby wrote: > > -- > Jon Morby > FidoNet - the internet made simple! > 10 - 16 Tiller Road, London, E14 8PX > tel: 0845 004 3050 / fax: 0845 004 3051 > > > > > On 14 Dec 2011, at 06:56, Raymond Jetten wrote: > >> Its the same case with the oil prices, oil is runnig out and will >> become more expensive, also situations is different countries >> (political, natural disasters) affect the oil price. Do you have the >> same complaint when you fill up your car at the gasstation when the >> price has gone up? > > > yes and there have been strikes, blockades and even riots complaining > about these price increases (and the 90% tax imposed by Government) > ... at the end of the day the politicians seem to ignore these > complaints, gloss over them and go back to their heavily subsidised > bar with low priced drinks and free transportation ... > > Hopefully the board of RIPE will not treat these objections in the > same light and will look to find a way of providing the same core > services at a reduction in spending rather than at an increase this > year / next year..... (and maybe even look at returning some of the > reserves to us as members) > We treat all comments from all members with consideration. It is sometimes difficult to work out consensus, but we do our best. As always, a polite comment carries more weight than a rude one. I'm actually rather pleased that we are at last getting some sort of debate. For many years this list was as quiet as the grave. We managed to trim enough off the budget this year to make up for the failure of the new charging scheme and with no loss of core services. The cost per member will continue to remain largely static or possibly decrease. Reserves have been returned to the members in the past and will be done so in the future whenever it is financially sensible to do so. And I'm not complaining, but unlike our revered politicians, none of the board get paid for this. We look on it as a way of putting back something of what the internet has given to us over the years. A Merry Christmas to all of you Nigel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nigel at titley.com Fri Dec 16 18:26:23 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:26:23 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Task Force Message-ID: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> Folks, I've had twenty volunteers already for the charging scheme task force. I'm going to give it to the end of today (midnight, GMT) and then I'm going to close the call. We'll then select, randomly, four of these volunteers to sit on the task force. All the best Nigel From ripe at marosnet.ru Sun Dec 18 00:33:35 2011 From: ripe at marosnet.ru (MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 03:33:35 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Small question about payments In-Reply-To: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> Message-ID: <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Hi colleagues. Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my customer, how will be change my payment scheme? Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. Best regards, Ivan Lungov MAROSNET Telecommunications Company ripe at marosnet.ru www.marosnet.ru +7 499 2645777 +7 495 2256250 +7 499 2645344 From s.wiese at trabia.net Sun Dec 18 00:42:23 2011 From: s.wiese at trabia.net (Sven Wiese) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 01:42:23 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] Small question about payments In-Reply-To: <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: <88CF5927-E0C5-46B2-9F54-560300990756@trabia.net> Hi Ivan, On Dec 18, 2011, at 1:33 AM, MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov wrote: > Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my customer, how > will be change my payment scheme? > Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. according to the current charging scheme which is also valid for 2012, your billing category won't change for Independent Internet Number Resources such as IPv4-PI and ASN. If they have been registered before 30.09.2011, they will be billed 50 EUR each (so 100 EUR for 2 resources) for 2012. If they are registered after that date, they will be charged only in 2013 if not removed from your registry until 30.09.2012, afaik. Cheers, Sven From ripe at marosnet.ru Sun Dec 18 02:29:43 2011 From: ripe at marosnet.ru (MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 05:29:43 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Small question about payments In-Reply-To: <88CF5927-E0C5-46B2-9F54-560300990756@trabia.net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com><97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <88CF5927-E0C5-46B2-9F54-560300990756@trabia.net> Message-ID: <9CA7F4A15D6447909FC1C5BA79A4323F@marosnet.net> Thank you very much, Sven. -----???????? ?????????----- From: Sven Wiese Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:42 AM To: MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Small question about payments Hi Ivan, On Dec 18, 2011, at 1:33 AM, MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov wrote: > Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my customer, > how > will be change my payment scheme? > Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. according to the current charging scheme which is also valid for 2012, your billing category won't change for Independent Internet Number Resources such as IPv4-PI and ASN. If they have been registered before 30.09.2011, they will be billed 50 EUR each (so 100 EUR for 2 resources) for 2012. If they are registered after that date, they will be charged only in 2013 if not removed from your registry until 30.09.2012, afaik. Cheers, Sven ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From poty at iiat.ru Sat Dec 17 20:30:30 2011 From: poty at iiat.ru (Vladislav Potapov) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 23:30:30 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <4EEB7B8F.4000703@titley.com> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com><4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl><4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it><6C14B3A7-D5AA-4800-B4BA-CD6584FD7655@fido.net> <4EEB7B8F.4000703@titley.com> Message-ID: <873F5B0F7E184DEAB81169665E49F136@potyhome2011> ?... And I'm not complaining, but unlike our revered politicians, none of the board get paid for this. We look on it as a way of putting back something of what the internet has given to us over the years. ... Nigel? You know, I often criticize the RIPE NCC as whole and the Board particularly... But I must say ? RIPE meetings are very useful to learn RIPE NCC people (amongst with many other things). I haven?t discussed a topic with Nigel, but I have to say that he and several other people in the Board do many things for which I can only show respect. Once more ? To be so tolerable to so many people with their own opinion (I?m saying about Nigel) ? very rare part of a person?s character. Regards, Vladislav -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nigel at titley.com Sun Dec 18 13:48:18 2011 From: nigel at titley.com (Nigel Titley) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:48:18 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Surprise on renew fees In-Reply-To: <873F5B0F7E184DEAB81169665E49F136@potyhome2011> References: <4EE78815.8020305@lanto.it> <4EE7A47F.7090102@llnw.com><4EE7A62F.6070505@lanto.it> <4EE7A844.8040902@acsystemy.pl><4EE7D19F.9020802@lanto.it><6C14B3A7-D5AA-4800-B4BA-CD6584FD7655@fido.net> <4EEB7B8F.4000703@titley.com> <873F5B0F7E184DEAB81169665E49F136@potyhome2011> Message-ID: <4EEDE112.6060503@titley.com> Vladislav On 17/12/11 19:30, Vladislav Potapov wrote: > Nigel??? > You know, I often criticize the RIPE NCC as whole and the Board > particularly... But I must say ??? RIPE meetings are very useful to > learn RIPE NCC people (amongst with many other things). I haven???t > discussed a topic with Nigel, but I have to say that he and several > other people in the Board do many things for which I can only show > respect. Once more ??? To be so tolerable to so many people with their > own opinion (I???m saying about Nigel) ??? very rare part of a > person???s character. Many thanks for this compliment. We appreciate it very much. Best regards Nigel From fweimer at bfk.de Wed Dec 21 11:13:57 2011 From: fweimer at bfk.de (Florian Weimer) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:13:57 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Executive Board Activity Since the RIPE NCC General Meeting References: <4ED51EAC.9020705@titley.com> <828vmynhr9.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <2AB1833E-5432-4D10-B7AB-1AE621D4D56A@ripe.net> Message-ID: <82pqfigrkq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> * Jochem de Ruig: > There is no 100% conclusive way to see in the RIPE Database whether > prefixes are legacy space under this waiver. There are some ways to > see/deduct it in the RIPE Database but that is not complete nor > conclusive as the status of these objects has changed many times over > the years. Jochem, thanks for the explanation. What's the precise rule, then? Does it apply to resources which have been traded and then converted to PI status? Florian -- Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra?e 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From jochem at ripe.net Thu Dec 22 10:30:54 2011 From: jochem at ripe.net (Jochem de Ruig) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:30:54 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] Executive Board Activity Since the RIPE NCC General Meeting In-Reply-To: <82pqfigrkq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> References: <4ED51EAC.9020705@titley.com> <828vmynhr9.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <2AB1833E-5432-4D10-B7AB-1AE621D4D56A@ripe.net> <82pqfigrkq.fsf@mid.bfk.de> Message-ID: <6C3BD1BD-824E-4DA5-BAF4-9C9D459FEBE8@ripe.net> Hi Florian, There has not been a firm rule, this has been a manual process, looking at internal records, archives ( ERX transfer web page, InterNIC/ARIN legacy records, etc ) and comparing those different data sets. In case of doubt further investigation was done on case per case basis. Regards, Jochem On Dec 21, 2011, at 11:13 AM, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Jochem de Ruig: > >> There is no 100% conclusive way to see in the RIPE Database whether >> prefixes are legacy space under this waiver. There are some ways to >> see/deduct it in the RIPE Database but that is not complete nor >> conclusive as the status of these objects has changed many times over >> the years. > > Jochem, > > thanks for the explanation. What's the precise rule, then? > Does it apply to resources which have been traded and then > converted to PI status? > > Florian > -- > Florian Weimer > BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ > Kriegsstra?e 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 > D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1735 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 18:51:47 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 17:51:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: Dear member, Your LIR Portal admin account was successfully migrated to RIPE NCC Access. *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that needs to die ASAP. no ripe, we want to SHUT DOWN smtp, we don't want to use SMTP email addresses for ANYTHING. there already is interaction with a browser, why involve an age old protocol thats older than the internet itself... at least offer url-based methods (skype: / jabber: /etc ;) instead of just that crappy old smtp... anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. -- Greetings, Sven Olaf Kamphuis, CB3ROB Ltd. & Co. KG ========================================================================= Address: Koloniestrasse 34 VAT Tax ID: DE267268209 D-13359 Registration: HRA 42834 B BERLIN Phone: +31/(0)87-8747479 Germany GSM: +49/(0)152-26410799 RIPE: CBSK1-RIPE e-Mail: sven at cb3rob.net ========================================================================= C3P0, der elektrische Westerwelle http://www.facebook.com/cb3rob ========================================================================= Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov wrote: > Hi colleagues. > Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my customer, how > will be change my payment scheme? > Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. > > Best regards, > Ivan Lungov > MAROSNET Telecommunications Company > ripe at marosnet.ru > www.marosnet.ru > +7 499 2645777 > +7 495 2256250 > +7 499 2645344 > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 18:56:18 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 17:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: I see absolutely no technical reason to have the login be an -email address-, the old method worked perfectly fine without using that obsolete crap. On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > > Dear member, > > Your LIR Portal admin account was successfully migrated to RIPE NCC > Access. > > > *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that > partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that > needs to die ASAP. > > no ripe, we want to SHUT DOWN smtp, we don't want to use SMTP email > addresses for ANYTHING. > > there already is interaction with a browser, why involve an age old > protocol thats older than the internet itself... > > at least offer url-based methods (skype: / jabber: /etc ;) instead of just > that crappy old smtp... > > anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that > includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. > > > -- > Greetings, > > Sven Olaf Kamphuis, > CB3ROB Ltd. & Co. KG > ========================================================================= > Address: Koloniestrasse 34 VAT Tax ID: DE267268209 > D-13359 Registration: HRA 42834 B > BERLIN Phone: +31/(0)87-8747479 > Germany GSM: +49/(0)152-26410799 > RIPE: CBSK1-RIPE e-Mail: sven at cb3rob.net > ========================================================================= > C3P0, der elektrische Westerwelle > http://www.facebook.com/cb3rob > ========================================================================= > > Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this > email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged > and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or > individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or > copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > > > On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov wrote: > >> Hi colleagues. >> Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my customer, how >> will be change my payment scheme? >> Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. >> >> Best regards, >> Ivan Lungov >> MAROSNET Telecommunications Company >> ripe at marosnet.ru >> www.marosnet.ru >> +7 499 2645777 >> +7 495 2256250 >> +7 499 2645344 >> >> >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From michal.margula at acsystemy.pl Sun Dec 25 19:00:56 2011 From: michal.margula at acsystemy.pl (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Margula?=) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:00:56 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: > *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that > partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that > needs to die ASAP. I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use and I missed it (apparently)? > anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that > includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. Good luck with that. Really. -- Micha? Margula :: AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 19:21:56 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:21:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Micha? Margula wrote: > W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: >> *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that >> partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that >> needs to die ASAP. > > I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that > next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use > and I missed it (apparently)? there is no need for one, just use skype, jabber, or your own internal stuff. > >> anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that >> includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. point being, the link to "smtp email" for logging into the lir portal is completely USELESS. it has no function AT ALL. ther already is an interactive communication with the webserver, no need to "acknowledge" anythign by clicking on a link in an email. all it does is keep that old crap alive for even longer. > > Good luck with that. Really. > > > -- > Micha? Margula :: > AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna > 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 19:23:49 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:23:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: furthermore, email usually uses ICANN domains (rather than random usernames) and therefore we use another thing we want to get rid of, american dominiation of our network infrastructure (dns in this case). meanwhile, it forfills no actual -function- to use email addresses as login names. On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Micha? Margula wrote: > W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: >> *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that >> partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that >> needs to die ASAP. > > I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that > next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use > and I missed it (apparently)? > >> anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that >> includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. > > Good luck with that. Really. > > > -- > Micha? Margula :: > AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna > 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 19:25:13 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:25:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: the old scheme with "nl.cb3rob" "hostmaster" "password" worked perfectly fine, all that needed to be changed was to implement it -everywhere- with single login, nobody ever said we wanted to switch to god damn e-mail addresses as login names. -- Greetings, Sven Olaf Kamphuis, CB3ROB Ltd. & Co. KG ========================================================================= Address: Koloniestrasse 34 VAT Tax ID: DE267268209 D-13359 Registration: HRA 42834 B BERLIN Phone: +31/(0)87-8747479 Germany GSM: +49/(0)152-26410799 RIPE: CBSK1-RIPE e-Mail: sven at cb3rob.net ========================================================================= C3P0, der elektrische Westerwelle http://www.facebook.com/cb3rob ========================================================================= Confidential: Please be advised that the information contained in this email message, including all attached documents or files, is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the use of the individual or individuals addressed. Any other use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Micha? Margula wrote: > W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: >> *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that >> partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that >> needs to die ASAP. > > I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that > next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use > and I missed it (apparently)? > >> anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that >> includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. > > Good luck with that. Really. > > > -- > Micha? Margula :: > AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna > 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 19:28:08 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:28:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: btw, how about simply flooding all those stupid ticket systems and autoresponders on this mailinglist, we have another 3-4 or so right now (no more ticar and that clueless .us toko - new ones ;) On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > > > On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Micha? Margula wrote: > >> W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: >>> *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that >>> partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email that >>> needs to die ASAP. >> >> I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that >> next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use >> and I missed it (apparently)? > > there is no need for one, just use skype, jabber, or your own internal stuff. > >> >>> anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that >>> includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. > > point being, the link to "smtp email" for logging into the lir portal is > completely USELESS. it has no function AT ALL. ther already is an interactive > communication with the webserver, no need to "acknowledge" anythign by > clicking on a link in an email. > > all it does is keep that old crap alive for even longer. > >> >> Good luck with that. > Really. > >> >> -- >> Micha? Margula :: >> AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna >> 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >> general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >> here, you can add or remove addresses. > From michal.margula at acsystemy.pl Sun Dec 25 19:32:38 2011 From: michal.margula at acsystemy.pl (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Margula?=) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:32:38 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: <4EF76C46.2050303@acsystemy.pl> W dniu 25.12.2011 19:21, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: > > there is no need for one, just use skype, jabber, or your own internal > stuff. > AFAIK skype is not open protocol and it is not implemented on every possible platform. If you wish you can make your fridge using SMTP, but not Skype. And also (same as Jabber) it is instant messenger, not an replacement for e-mail. How you imagine sending documents, or any kind of real work via Jabber? It's plain ridiculous. And internal stuff is just internal. There needs to be some kind of bridge between those internal stuff thingies. > point being, the link to "smtp email" for logging into the lir portal is > completely USELESS. it has no function AT ALL. ther already is an > interactive communication with the webserver, no need to "acknowledge" > anythign by clicking on a link in an email. > > all it does is keep that old crap alive for even longer. OK. I can agree with that, but claiming that SMTP will die soon is not based on aything. If I told any of me customer to use Jabber instead of SMTP, they would just change ISP (if was that customer I would do the same). If any of my suppliers or buissness partners asked me to contact them not by e-mail but by Jabber I just would ask them to be serious. I DO use Jabber for my personal and internal company contacts, but that is all. -- Micha? Margula :: AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 From alfredo at solucionesdinamicas.net Sun Dec 25 19:32:49 2011 From: alfredo at solucionesdinamicas.net (Alfredo Sola) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:32:49 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: > *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that ...Is easier to manage and not less secure given the context. -- Alfredo Sola ASP5-RIPE http://www.solucionesdinamicas.net/ From adam.binks at vispa.net Sun Dec 25 19:55:25 2011 From: adam.binks at vispa.net (Adam Binks) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:55:25 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sven - it's Christmas day - try not to get stressed over using your e-mail address to login to the LIR Portal... Merry at Christm.as to all :-) On 25/12/2011 18:23, "Sven Olaf Kamphuis" wrote: >furthermore, email usually uses ICANN domains (rather than random >usernames) and therefore we use another thing we want to get rid of, >american dominiation of our network infrastructure (dns in this case). > >meanwhile, it forfills no actual -function- to use email addresses as >login names. > > >On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Micha? Margula wrote: > >> W dniu 25.12.2011 18:51, Sven Olaf Kamphuis pisze: >>> *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one >>>that >>> partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email >>>that >>> needs to die ASAP. >> >> I find this quite funny and amusing - so what is that >> next-big-replacement for SMTP based e-mail which everybody seems to use >> and I missed it (apparently)? >> >>> anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and >>>that >>> includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. >> >> Good luck with that. Really. >> >> >> -- >> Micha? Margula :: >> AC Systemy Komputerowe Stanis?aw Bor sp??ka jawna >> 72-600 ?winouj?cie :: ul. Bohater?w Wrze?nia 50/4 :: NIP 855-12-99-281 >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >>general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >>here, you can add or remove addresses. >>---- >If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the >general page: >https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > >Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From >here, you can add or remove addresses. From gert at space.net Sun Dec 25 20:58:15 2011 From: gert at space.net (Gert Doering) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 20:58:15 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> Message-ID: <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net> Hi, On Sun, Dec 25, 2011 at 06:23:49PM +0000, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > furthermore, email usually uses ICANN domains (rather than random > usernames) and therefore we use another thing we want to get rid of, > american dominiation of our network infrastructure (dns in this case). Wouldn't it be logical to get rid of IP as well, while you're at it, since that has been invented by americans as well? So you could get rid of RIPE, and no need for the portal anymore! Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From sven at cb3rob.net Sun Dec 25 22:33:54 2011 From: sven at cb3rob.net (Sven Olaf Kamphuis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:33:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Gert Doering wrote: > Wouldn't it be logical to get rid of IP as well, while you're at it, since > that has been invented by americans as well? yes, lets switch to x.25 for tactical reasons, shall we. > > So you could get rid of RIPE, and no need for the portal anymore! you don't need ripe for IP, its a courtesy to register things before using them. > (plus we're not entirely clear on wether americans actually -invented- tcp/ip to start with, appearantly they just -implemented- it.) > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? yes. > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > From jonas.lindkvist at trafikverket.se Mon Dec 26 00:23:22 2011 From: jonas.lindkvist at trafikverket.se (jonas.lindkvist at trafikverket.se) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:23:22 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] Ang.: LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net>, Message-ID: <3B7FCBED-C503-4B32-B576-A3E90E41B5B6@trafikverket.se> Please stop, I'm cracking up here... Jonas Skickat fr?n min HTC ----- Reply message ----- Fr?n: "Sven Olaf Kamphuis" Datum: s?n, dec 25, 2011 22:35 Rubrik: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration Till: "Gert Doering" Kopia: "Micha? Margula" , "members-discuss at ripe.net" On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Gert Doering wrote: > Wouldn't it be logical to get rid of IP as well, while you're at it, since > that has been invented by americans as well? yes, lets switch to x.25 for tactical reasons, shall we. > > So you could get rid of RIPE, and no need for the portal anymore! you don't need ripe for IP, its a courtesy to register things before using them. > (plus we're not entirely clear on wether americans actually -invented- tcp/ip to start with, appearantly they just -implemented- it.) > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? yes. > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. > ---- If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alberto at avanzati.it Sun Dec 25 23:19:32 2011 From: alberto at avanzati.it (Alberto Maronna) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:19:32 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net> Message-ID: <4474B137-3198-4917-8928-1875E07D8DBD@avanzati.it> Merry christmas guys!!!!!!! Il giorno 25/dic/2011, alle ore 23:03, "Sven Olaf Kamphuis" ha scritto: > On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Gert Doering wrote: > >> Wouldn't it be logical to get rid of IP as well, while you're at it, since >> that has been invented by americans as well? > > yes, lets switch to x.25 for tactical reasons, shall we. > >> >> So you could get rid of RIPE, and no need for the portal anymore! > > you don't need ripe for IP, its a courtesy to register things before using > them. > >> > > (plus we're not entirely clear on wether americans actually -invented- > tcp/ip to start with, appearantly they just -implemented- it.) > >> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > yes. > >> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard >> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann >> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) >> Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From jody at ask4.com Sun Dec 25 23:29:06 2011 From: jody at ask4.com (Jody Botham) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 22:29:06 +0000 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <4EF764D8.40703@acsystemy.pl> <20111225195815.GW72014@Space.Net> Message-ID: <3483511F-D76A-4646-9E53-CE922D739BBC@ask4.com> You're an angry man for Xmas aren't you. Give us a kiss x x x On 25 Dec 2011, at 21:33, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, Gert Doering wrote: > >> Wouldn't it be logical to get rid of IP as well, while you're at it, since >> that has been invented by americans as well? > > yes, lets switch to x.25 for tactical reasons, shall we. > >> >> So you could get rid of RIPE, and no need for the portal anymore! > > you don't need ripe for IP, its a courtesy to register things before using > them. > >> > > (plus we're not entirely clear on wether americans actually -invented- > tcp/ip to start with, appearantly they just -implemented- it.) > >> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > yes. > >> SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard >> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann >> D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) >> Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >> >> ---- >> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss >> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: >> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view >> >> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. >> > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. From oliver.schad at automatic-server.com Mon Dec 26 00:00:08 2011 From: oliver.schad at automatic-server.com (Oliver Schad) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 00:00:08 +0100 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> Message-ID: <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> On Sunday 25 December 2011 18:51:47 Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: > at least offer url-based methods (skype: / jabber: /etc ;) instead of just > that crappy old smtp... "skype" triggered the troll detector. Too much, nice try. Regards Oli -- Oliver Schad Gesch?ftsf?hrer (CEO) Automatic Server AG E-Mail: info at automatic-server.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From jj at streamnetworks.lv Tue Dec 27 10:39:31 2011 From: jj at streamnetworks.lv (=?UTF-8?B?SsSBbmlzIEphdW5vxaHEgW5z?=) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:39:31 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> Message-ID: <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> bazzinga! :D > Oliver Schad > December 26, 2011 01:00 > > "skype" triggered the troll detector. Too much, nice try. > > Regards > Oli > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > Sven Olaf Kamphuis > December 25, 2011 19:51 > Dear member, > > Your LIR Portal admin account was successfully migrated to RIPE NCC > Access. > > > *great*... and we have replaced a web-only signup procedure with one that > partially relies on that dusty old crappy inreliable smtp based email > that > needs to die ASAP. > > no ripe, we want to SHUT DOWN smtp, we don't want to use SMTP email > addresses for ANYTHING. > > there already is interaction with a browser, why involve an age old > protocol thats older than the internet itself... > > at least offer url-based methods (skype: / jabber: /etc ;) instead of > just > that crappy old smtp... > > anyway, we'll shut down SMTP completely over the coming year... and that > includes -this- mailinglist, unless it's migrated to modern protocols. > > > MAROSNET - Ivan A Lungov > December 18, 2011 01:33 > Hi colleagues. > Tell to me please, if I order IPv4/24 PI block and ASN for my > customer, how > will be change my payment scheme? > Now my LIR Billing Category is EXTRA SMALL. > > Best regards, > Ivan Lungov > MAROSNET Telecommunications Company > ripe at marosnet.ru > www.marosnet.ru > +7 499 2645777 > +7 495 2256250 > +7 499 2645344 > > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > Nigel Titley > December 16, 2011 19:26 > Folks, > > I've had twenty volunteers already for the charging scheme task force. > I'm going to give it to the end of today (midnight, GMT) and then I'm > going to close the call. > > We'll then select, randomly, four of these volunteers to sit on the task > force. > > All the best > > Nigel > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.wiese at trabia.net Tue Dec 27 10:50:52 2011 From: s.wiese at trabia.net (Sven Wiese) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:50:52 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> Message-ID: <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> The Sheldinator is on board too. :) Merry X-Mas all and a happy New Year! Cheers, Sven On 27.12.2011 11:39 , J?nis Jauno??ns wrote: > bazzinga! :D >> Oliver Schad >> December 26, 2011 01:00 >> >> "skype" triggered the troll detector. Too much, nice try. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ahakim at damamax.jo Tue Dec 27 11:19:13 2011 From: ahakim at damamax.jo (Aladdin Hakim) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 12:19:13 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> Message-ID: <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> Merry Christmas all, and Happy new year. It seems all IP engineers are watching Big Bang Theory !! ? From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Sven Wiese Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 11:51 AM To: members-discuss at ripe.net Cc: J?nis Jauno??ns Subject: Re: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration The Sheldinator is on board too. :) Merry X-Mas all and a happy New Year! Cheers, Sven On 27.12.2011 11:39 , J?nis Jauno??ns wrote: bazzinga! :D [cid:image001.jpg at 01CCC491.BE695D60] Oliver Schad December 26, 2011 01:00 "skype" triggered the troll detector. Too much, nice try. ________________________________ This email is from DAMAMAX Jordan. The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient. They may not be disclosed to or used by or copied in any way by anyone other than the intended recipient. If this email is received in error, please contact DAMAMAX Jordan on +962 6 5777733 quoting the name of the sender and the email address to which it has been sent and then delete it. Please note that neither DAMAMAX jordan nor the sender accepts any responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan or otherwise check this email and any attachments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From andrei at connet-ro.com Tue Dec 27 12:12:25 2011 From: andrei at connet-ro.com (Constantinescu Andrei) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:12:25 +0200 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> Message-ID: <4EF9A819.5040602@connet-ro.com> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all. Sure they do Aladdin :) * Constantinescu, Andrei Connet-ro - TNS Romania * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *P Please consider the environment before printing this email.* On 27.12.2011 12:19, Aladdin Hakim wrote: > > Merry Christmas all, and Happy new year. > > It seems all IP engineers are watching Big Bang Theory !! J > > *From:*members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *Sven Wiese > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 27, 2011 11:51 AM > *To:* members-discuss at ripe.net > *Cc:* Ja-nis Jaunos(a-ns > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration > > The Sheldinator is on board too. :) > > Merry X-Mas all and a happy New Year! > > Cheers, > Sven > > > On 27.12.2011 11:39 , Ja-nis Jaunos(a-ns wrote: > > bazzinga! :D > > *Oliver Schad* > > December 26, 2011 01:00 > > > "skype" triggered the troll detector. Too much, nice try. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This email is from DAMAMAX Jordan. The contents of this email and any > attachments are confidential to the intended recipient. They may not > be disclosed to or used by or copied in any way by anyone other than > the intended recipient. If this email is received in error, please > contact DAMAMAX Jordan on +962 6 5777733 quoting the name of the > sender and the email address to which it has been sent and then delete > it. Please note that neither DAMAMAX jordan nor the sender accepts any > responsibility for viruses and it is your responsibility to scan or > otherwise check this email and any attachments. > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dyr at smartspb.net Tue Dec 27 11:42:43 2011 From: dyr at smartspb.net (Dennis Yusupoff) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:42:43 +0400 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> Message-ID: <4EF9A123.5060601@smartspb.net> 27.12.2011 14:19, Aladdin Hakim ?????: > > Merry Christmas all, and Happy new year. > > > > It seems all IP engineers are watching Big Bang Theory !! J > > Oh yeah! :) -- With best regards, Dennis Yusupoff, network engineer of Smart-Telecom ISP Russia, Saint-Petersburg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hgggcjag.png Type: image/png Size: 132367 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 552 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From hamed at skydsl.ir Wed Dec 28 06:09:40 2011 From: hamed at skydsl.ir (Hamed Shafaghi) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 08:39:40 +0330 Subject: [members-discuss] LIR Portal Admin account migration In-Reply-To: <4EF9A123.5060601@smartspb.net> References: <4EEB7F3F.40803@titley.com> <97AFD8AC85254F2FB2970880D0FBB158@marosnet.net> <201112260000.13889.oliver.schad@automatic-server.com> <4EF99253.1040807@streamnetworks.lv> <4EF994FC.9040700@trabia.net> <16D374348D988A44B16225B8EB76660D204B8028EA@exchange.neutelecom.loc> <4EF9A123.5060601@smartspb.net> Message-ID: Merry Christmas and Happy new year. Cheers, Hamed On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Dennis Yusupoff wrote: > 27.12.2011 14:19, Aladdin Hakim ?????: > > Merry Christmas all, and Happy new year.**** > > ** ** > > It seems all IP engineers are watching Big Bang Theory !! J**** > > **** > > > Oh yeah! :) > > > > -- > With best regards, > Dennis Yusupoff, > network engineer of > Smart-Telecom ISP > Russia, Saint-Petersburg > > > ---- > If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss > mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the > general page: > https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view > > Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From > here, you can add or remove addresses. > -- I Hamed Shafaghi I I Managing Director I I Skydsl? Telecom I hamed at skydsl.ir I www.skydsl.ir I -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hgggcjag.png Type: image/png Size: 132367 bytes Desc: not available URL: