[ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
Igor Romanenko igor at office.lucky.net
Fri Feb 13 17:08:21 CET 1998
> >> Excerpt from RIPE-167: > >> > >> If has been suggested more than once that the coun- > >> tries of the CIS in fact form a separate region from > >> Europe that needed special regional support. > > I> Argh! Now you start to understand what RIPE-167 is really all about. > > IMHO that point was included just as a formal reason for creating > yet another RIR. Well, I meant that the definition of "region" in RIPE-167 is _political_ rather then _geographical_. Why so? If I remember correctly, TZ difference in Moscow and Far East is 9 hours ("Moscow time is 3 p.m.,... it's midnight in Petropavlosk-Kamchatsky" (c) Moscow radio ;). So why insist on TZ difference as the argument for RIR creation? (Note, this is only one example of contradictions or, better to say, inconsistencies in RIPE-167). > I never heard anything about making Ukraine or > anybody else to be served by it against their will neither at that meeting > nor in corresponding maillists. The only who spoke so were Ukrainian > representatives. Ukrainian representatives (and yours truly in particular) asked the following questions and got the following answers: Q: Will the alternative service be preserved in the future? A: No, it is not feasible for RIPE. Q: Then what will be after the trial period? A: LIRs will have no choice as to from what RIR they can get service. Q: How will it be decided who is served by what RIR? A: By some kind of voting. And now look at the meeting's statement (I've already quoted appropriate part of it). Q: How could this meeting, where there are representatives from Russia and Ukraine make decisions for other countries? A: It is not democratical centralism, we are talking about - it's European democracy. If representatives from other countries did not come, it is taken as a sign that they do not care, so we'll decide for them. (I'm _not_ sure about wording - anyway we have a copy of all the discussion on an audio tape ;) > And what makes sense if Russia is situated in Asia as well as in Europe? > It would sound a bit odd if we end up served half by RIPE and half by > APNIC considering there are ISPs which serve clients in Vladivostok > as well as in Moscow. I believe we definetely need a RIR and anybody > who likes to work with it is welcome. See above w.r.t. TZ differences as an example. > >> IMHO the only difference between two EUROPEAN RIRs is working language > >> (English for RIPE and Russian for RIPN). > > I> Which is not difference at all, granted that all CIS countries > I> as well as Baltic ones have their own respective languages. > I> Add the fact that technicians normally _do_ speak English well > I> enough to make "language matters" of small importance even for Russian LIRs ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > For some people there is no difference. For some other there is a difference. > I like that manner to speak for all. Where had I tried to speak "for all"? When I insisted on the existence of, say, Armenian language? Hope you are not going to deny it's existence ;) > > Many people of ex-USSR countries speak Russian and ( for now ) not so > many speak English ( alas! ). Thus language selection matters something too. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, it seems that the two statements underlined above are not that far from each other. > Of course, that is possible to have Russian ( Kazakh, Tadjik, etc ) speaking > people in RIPE office. Also it's possible to teach everybody concerned ^^^^^^^^^ > to speak English. And what would do people who cannot yet? Not to > allow them to use Internet? Sorry, LIR's personnel is _not_ "everybody". And why, on Earth should people, who are just _using_ the Internet contact RIR directly? > > And there _are_ technicians at least in Moscow and St. Petersbourg who > does not know English enough to speak or write email. There are lots > of people who can understand documents in English but not write > something. Consider the difference between Europe and Russia ( and > for that matter other CIS countries ) How are they working with RIPE now? ;) > > I> The other difference pointed out at Moscow meeting was payment > I> in roubles which really does not make sense in other CIS or FSU countries. > > Well, maybe. Alas, there still are people and firms and ISP's which > have no credit cards. And if the feature would be useful for some of > them -- why to neglect it? OK, so should this be one of the _main_ arguments for RIR creation? And again, when you are speaking about Russia - you are absolutely right, Not so for most other CIS countries, where rouble is a foreign currency. > I> And the results may well turn to be disastrous. During the Moscow meeting > I> some things were made quite obvious > I> 1. There will be no eternal alternative. There will be finite test > I> period after which all LIRs should be served by only one RIR. > > If the service is good enough and LIRS agree to it. As far as the > RIPE-167 authors thought there might be problems to be served by > RIPE if the RIR is functioning. Nothing else. No prob. iff the choice will be free for _every_ LIR and iff _all_ newly established LIRs will have this choice from now on. Unfortunately, this is nearly equivalent to continuing alternative service. > > I> 2. After the test period the decision should be made by some kind of voting. > I> At first it seems that the voting rules (as outlined in Moscow > I> meeting's statement) are really democratic. The decision should be > I> made "based on agreement of not less then 2/3 of registered LIRs, > I> functioning on the territory of each of the countries served" > I> (translation is mine, I can send you the text in Russian if you like). > I> Now, the question is: does this mean 2/3 of _all_ the LIRs > I> in _all_ countries served? Simple arithmetic will show you that > I> if this was the intended meaning, Russian LIRs will _always_ > I> outvote any other. BTW, this could be the case with all the other > I> votings, decisions and the like. > I> 3. The fact that representatives of some countries were absent > I> during the Moscow meeting will be taken as the indication > I> that LIRs in these countries "do not care" rather then "do not agree". > I> Mr.Stesin had already pointed this out. Let me show you an example: > I> at Moscow meeting there were 4 LIRs from Ukraine. _All_ of them > I> voted against the statement. The result was: the statement had been > I> adopted nevertheless. You have not commented on this. Do you agree with the possibilities outlined above? > I> ... > > However there was a separate opinion of Ukraine in the final statement. It seemed the only reasonable way to make the community hear our voice. Otherwise it would be mere "20 for, 4 against, everything is just fine" > > Some time later Kazakhstan ISPs sent a message agreeing to that meeting > resume. And nobody but Ukraine said a word against that yet. And later Russian Academy of Sciences pretended to be the founder of new RIR instead of RIPN. And during the meeting some Russian LIRs voted against the statement. So what? > > My (private) general impression of that meeting is: Ukraine does not > want to be served by RIR in Russia under any circumstances. On the > other hand nobody insisted on that and nobody is going to. There is > good enough future for Internet developing in Russia and it would > make sense to found RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who > would like to join it. They all are independent and have all rights > to choose. Please, stop thinking in "country" categories. Paraphrasing you: "LIRs in any country are independent and have all rights to choose." Now, please, reread your own words: "RIR for it and the countries from ex-USSR who would like to join it." ^^^^^^^^^ So, how will you decide if _the country_ would like to join it? Some LIRs would, some would not. And _making_ them to follow your way just because initially 2 or three of them agreed to this is... khm... non-democratic. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net > Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ > Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 > Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- Igor Romanenko @[email protected] Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-290-03-48 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "On the Internet nobody knows you are a Frog"
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