From lir-mod at ripe.net Mon Nov 10 12:32:22 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:32:22 +0100 Subject: Cost of links to US Message-ID: <199711101132.MAA18694@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 615 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from taunivm.tau.ac.il by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA23238 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0100 Message-Id: <9711100758.AA23238 at ncc.ripe.net> Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL by VM.TAU.AC.IL (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6715; Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:57:16 IST Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL (NJE origin HANK at TAUNIVM) by VM.TAU.AC.IL (LMail V1 .2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9621; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:57:16 +0200 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:55:40 IST From: Hank Nussbacher Subject: Cost of links to US To: local-ir at ripe.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For a lecture I am preparing I am in need of some costs. How much do you pay (can be in local currency) for a T1/E1 or T3/E3 line to the USA. Plz specify via which carrier, and what cable if possible. Thanks, Hank ------- End of Forwarded Message From MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be Mon Nov 10 12:36:17 1997 From: MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be (MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 12:36:17 +0100 Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: To: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM[] Cc: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM["Hank Nussbacher" ] Subject: Cost of links to US Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3042: piet.spiessens at MASTER.PER@BELGACOM VNM3042 -- NAME NOT FOUND Mail cannot deliver the message for one of the following reasons: the appropriate StreetTalk is not available; the recipient's user name was deleted; the recipient's name was not entered correctly. Verify the accuracy of the name entered. If the name you entered is a user name, check to see if the user was deleted. If the name is correct and the user exists, check the connections between the recipient and the sender. You may see this error if you send a message to a list, but one of the names on the list is incorrect or invalid. Anytime a user is deleted, that user name must be removed from all lists that contain the name. ---------------------- Original Message Follows ---------------------- ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 615 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from taunivm.tau.ac.il by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA23238 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0100 Message-Id: <9711100758.AA23238 at ncc.ripe.net> Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL by VM.TAU.AC.IL (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6715; Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:57:16 IST Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL (NJE origin HANK at TAUNIVM) by VM.TAU.AC.IL (LMail V1 .2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9621; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:57:16 +0200 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:55:40 IST From: Hank Nussbacher Subject: Cost of links to US To: local-ir at ripe.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For a lecture I am preparing I am in need of some costs. How much do you pay (can be in local currency) for a T1/E1 or T3/E3 line to the USA. Plz specify via which carrier, and what cable if possible. Thanks, Hank ------- End of Forwarded Message From MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be Mon Nov 10 12:36:04 1997 From: MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be (MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 12:36:04 +0100 Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: To: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM[] Cc: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM["Hank Nussbacher" ] Subject: Cost of links to US Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3043: FONTEYNE Frederic at BTB.MTM_MM1@BELGACOM VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL The message cannot be delivered because the recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of messages, as set by the system administrator. The recipient must delete some messages before any other messages can be delivered. The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 10,000. The default message limit is 1000 messages. Administrators can set message limits using the Mailbox Settings function available in the Manage User menu (MUSER). When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the user must delete some of the messages before the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages. ---------------------- Original Message Follows ---------------------- ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 615 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 Received: from taunivm.tau.ac.il by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA23238 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0100 Message-Id: <9711100758.AA23238 at ncc.ripe.net> Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL by VM.TAU.AC.IL (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6715; Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:57:16 IST Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL (NJE origin HANK at TAUNIVM) by VM.TAU.AC.IL (LMail V1 .2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9621; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:57:16 +0200 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:55:40 IST From: Hank Nussbacher Subject: Cost of links to US To: local-ir at ripe.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT For a lecture I am preparing I am in need of some costs. How much do you pay (can be in local currency) for a T1/E1 or T3/E3 line to the USA. Plz specify via which carrier, and what cable if possible. Thanks, Hank ------- End of Forwarded Message From gilles at easynet.fr Mon Nov 10 13:35:49 1997 From: gilles at easynet.fr (Gilles HUGUENIN) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:35:49 +0100 Subject: Cost of links to US Message-ID: <01bcedd5$2d1e2ae0$5700000a@gillou.easynet.fr> un peu confidentiel comme info ;-) -----Message d'origine----- De : NCC local-ir list Moderator @ : lir-wg at ripe.net Cc : Hank Nussbacher Date : lundi 10 novembre 1997 13:04 Objet : Cost of links to US > >------- Forwarded Message > >Received: (qmail 615 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 >Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) > by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 >Received: from taunivm.tau.ac.il by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP > id AA23238 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0100 >Message-Id: <9711100758.AA23238 at ncc.ripe.net> >Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL by VM.TAU.AC.IL (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with BSMTP id 6715; Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:57:16 IST >Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL (NJE origin HANK at TAUNIVM) by VM.TAU.AC.IL (LMail V1 >.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9621; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:57:16 +0200 >Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:55:40 IST >From: Hank Nussbacher >Subject: Cost of links to US >To: local-ir at ripe.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > >For a lecture I am preparing I am in need of some costs. How much >do you pay (can be in local currency) for a T1/E1 or T3/E3 line to the >USA. Plz specify via which carrier, and what cable if possible. > >Thanks, >Hank > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > > From stesin at gu.net Tue Nov 11 18:59:00 1997 From: stesin at gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:59:00 +0200 (EET) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <9710141356.AA22176@ncc.ripe.net> Message-ID: Dear Mirjam, dear Daniel, Robert, Andrey, dear Mr. Postel, On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Mirjam Kuehne wrote: > Dear local registries, > > The following document written by Robert Blokzijl, Daniel Karrenberg > and Alexei Platonov was announced to the RIPE community and to all local > registries after the last RIPE Meeting: > > ripe-167: A Regional Internet Registry for the Commonwealth of > Independent States [...] > If you then have any further questions, please do not hesitate to > contact me or one of the authors. Being a person who actually operate one of the major LIRs in Ukraine, UA.GU, with almost 5 years of experience of administering IP networks, I'd like to comment on both the approach of ripe-167 and on some actual statements of it. I'd also like to provide some proposals about how to improve the state of affairs at least for Ukraine. I'm Cc:-ing this message to all interested parties, in a hope that a broader discussion will start then. ripe-167 was also discussed by the Ukrainian First National Conference "Internet technologies in National Information Infrastrure", in Yalta, November 3-6, organized under supervision of Ukrainian Ministry of Information and National Agency for Informatization. This is why there wasn't an earlier reply -- now my comments are accomodating the results of the discussion. > Kind Regards, > > Mirjam Kuehne > Manager Registration Services > RIPE NCC Let's examine the document below. -------------------------- ripe-167.txt -------------------------------- # # A Regional Internet Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States # # Robert Blokzijl # Daniel Karrenberg # Alexei Platonov # 2 October 1997 # # Table of Contents # # 1.Scope # 2.Background # 3.Local Service Arrangement # 4.New Regional Registry # 5.Next Steps # 6.Addresses of the Authors # ______________________________________________________________ # # 1.Scope # # This memorandum is intended to focus discussion about the # establishment of a Regional Internet Registry serving the CIS and # surrounding areas. Public comments are invited. The ultimate aim of # this process is to achieve rough consensus about the issue within # the region concerned. This memo represents the views of the # individual authors only. It has not been endorsed by any # organisation. # # 2.Background # # Since the start of the RIPE NCC as a regional Internet registry in # April 1991 Russia and the other countries of the CIS (former USSR) # have been served by the RIPE NCC. Developments of the last few # years however suggest that it is difficult for the RIPE NCC to # serve all parts of this area because in practise there exist a # number of practical problems. These problems have to do with # circumstances caused by: # # - local language problems # This is not a problem. There is an axiom that at least for ISP there is at least one person onsite who has sufficient English skills to communicate with RIPE personnel. # - time zone differences # Assignment of IP address space and establishment of LIRs aren't a matter of minutes and even hours aren't always that critical. In any case, if the process will take some time, it's not that big a problem. # - travel difficulties # # - effort necessary to organise coordination meetings Mailing lists aren't that bad for coordination, anyway. # If has been suggested more than once that the countries of the CIS # in fact form a separate region from Europe that needed special # regional support. This thesis isn't historically or politically correct. First of all, CIS isn't something solid or clearly defined, xUSSR is a much better definition. Some countries of xUSSR belong to Eastern Europe, culturally and historically. Others are much closer to Middle East. And anyway, this is a set of _different_ countries, often they are much more isolated one from another than any given pair of Western European countries. Reality is: there isn't such clear "region" as CIS. # Because of these difficulties the RIPE NCC has cooperated with the # Russian Institute of Public Networks, RosNIIROS. RosNIIROS is also # known by its english acronym: RIPN. RosNIIROS have acted since # 1992, in close cooperation with RIPE NCC, as a Local IR of last # resort. They also support the Local IR activities of a significant # number of ISPs in the region. # # 3.Local Service Arrangement # # As everywhere else in the world, also Russia and the CIS have seen # a rapid growth in Internet activities, including a growth in the # number of ISPs. Currently about 100 ISPs are active in the region, # of which around 60 are located in Russia. If the above statement was supplied by some statistics and numbers, the picture might be much more clear. As for me, I consider the total of 100 is somewhat underestimated. # The current growth is # about 3 new ISPs per month. Most of the new ISPs are located in the # Urals region and further east in Siberia. Note: Urals and Siberia are parts of a single country -- Russia. # Because of this growth # and the difficulties described above, the RIPE NCC is exploring # ways to ensure optimal service for these registries. # # The RIPE NCC are currently considering to ask RosNIIROS to provide # full local support equivalent to that supplied by the Amsterdam # RIPE office to local registries in the region that wish to use it. # The NCC would remain fully responsible for operations including # service level and quality. The NCC would provide all necessary # resources to RosNIIROS. Local registries in the region would # continue to have a service agreement with the RIPE NCC but have the # option to receive service according to their preference from either # RosNIIROS or the RIPE NCC, but not both at the same time. We # envisage to start this arrangement sometime during the first # quarter of 1998. Of course all this will happen under the guidance # of the RIPE Local IR working group and IANA # # The subsequent period can then be used by RosNIIROS to gain # experience and increase the acceptance of their service. This time # will also be used to get a clearer idea of the exact extent of the # region served by the potential RIR. We expect this period to last # at least 12 months but not more than 24 months. # # 4.New Regional Registry # # We expect that the above arrangement will work well. Because of # that it will eventually be used by the majority of the Local IR s # in the region. Steps will then be taken to convert the local # service arrangement into its own Regional Internet Registry # separate from the RIPE NCC. A prerequisite for this is widespread # acceptance, appropriate governance mechanisms and a truly # international scope. # # This whole process needs active involvement of all ISP's in the # region in the governance of the Regional IR RosNIIROS will actively # pursue to gain the acceptance and help to put the appropriate # governance mechanisms in place. # # 5.Next Steps # # The authors invite a public discussion about this process # especially within the CIS region but also within RIPE in general. # RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS will take preparatory steps late this year. # If the discussion reveals no serious objections the local service # arrangement will start sometime during Q1/1998. What are the conclusion of reviewing this document? 1. The document is based on political and historical ideas from an epoque of 5 years ago. They aren't correct anymore. 2. The document doesn't provide a solid set of argumentation, neither in favor of "RR for xUSSR countries" creation itself, nor in favor of creation of this RR in Moscow. As one can't get enough information from the document itself, what might be at the background of it? a. RosNIIROS is a governmental institution, it isn't a collaborative organisation. It's activity reflects the policy of a single government -- Russian -- and this policy often directly contradicts the interests of other xUSSR countries. b. In the nearest past, Russian government started establishing a policy of strong governmental regulation for Internet activity on Russian territory. c. RosNIIROS isn't a single entity in Russia trying to achieve the major role in regulating and directing Internet activity. Naturally, they also might have an interest in broadening their role to the whole xUSSR, to get a bonus in this "competition". d. Holding an RR for a set of adjucent countries will allow Russian governmental institutions to monitor Internet activities there and even get some influence on them. e. Being an RR allows providing of the service involves getting some funds from the customers, in this case -- from ISPs. Probably, governmental funding of RosNIIROS isn't enough for them today, and additional funding is badly needed. These are my guesses and impressions, not clear facts. These are _questions_. But one can draw some conclusions even from questions. According to discussions with collegues and other interested parties, here and at Yalta conference, I'd like to finish my comments with the following conclusions: Most Ukrainian ISPs are voting against an attempt to establish an "RR for CIS"; what is CIS, anyway? By the way, Russia is a federation itself, so Russia alone is in fact a region. So creating of RR for Russia in RosNIIROS would be much more correct, and make it so. In case RIPE will create a RIPN-based "RR for CIS" it would be boycotted by most Ukrainian ISPs due to unclear political and financial reasons of it's creation. We prefer dealing with RIPE directly -- our contributions to RIPE are pretty sufficient for this. As for new and young LIRs in Ukraine -- they in fact do have personnel who know English. Also Kyiv is much closer to Europe than to Siberia. # 6.Addresses of the Authors # # Robert Blokzijl # RIPE Chairman # # # Daniel Karrenberg # RIPE NCC Manager # # # Alexei Platonov # RosNIIROS (RIPN) Director # # --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best regards, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From plat at ripn.net Tue Nov 11 20:58:01 1997 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:58:01 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at "Nov 11, 97 07:59:00 pm" Message-ID: <199711111958.WAA21029@argo.ripn.net> Hi, I think there is some misunderstanding, may be due to the fact that some details are not clearly defined in the ripe-167 document. The idea is _to start_ the process on the base of RosNIIROS, as far as it has done something already with this problem. If we agree with the idea of RIR, then the work is to be done within some "collaborative entity" and the model of RIPE is acceptable. If we need, some international association can be formally established. I've already discussed it with some of Russian ISPs, and they also think so. Of course, it's not acceptable that Russian Government will dictate something through RosNIIROS. The latter can play only _technical_ role (if it'll be decided that it is RosNIIROS that should do this work after initial period). I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea of RIR at all, or they don't like it to be based on some organization (say, with international status) located in Moscow ? What about Minsk, then ? :-) Best regards, Alexei Platonov RosNIIROS According to Andrew Stesin: > > > What are the conclusion of reviewing this document? > > 1. The document is based on political and historical > ideas from an epoque of 5 years ago. They aren't correct > anymore. > 2. The document doesn't provide a solid set of argumentation, > neither in favor of "RR for xUSSR countries" creation itself, > nor in favor of creation of this RR in Moscow. > > As one can't get enough information from the document itself, > what might be at the background of it? > > a. RosNIIROS is a governmental institution, it isn't > a collaborative organisation. It's activity reflects > the policy of a single government -- Russian -- and this > policy often directly contradicts the interests of > other xUSSR countries. > > b. In the nearest past, Russian government started establishing > a policy of strong governmental regulation for Internet > activity on Russian territory. > > c. RosNIIROS isn't a single entity in Russia trying to achieve > the major role in regulating and directing Internet activity. > Naturally, they also might have an interest in broadening > their role to the whole xUSSR, to get a bonus in this > "competition". > > d. Holding an RR for a set of adjucent countries will allow > Russian governmental institutions to monitor Internet > activities there and even get some influence on them. > > e. Being an RR allows providing of the service involves getting > some funds from the customers, in this case -- from ISPs. > Probably, governmental funding of RosNIIROS isn't > enough for them today, and additional funding is > badly needed. > > These are my guesses and impressions, not clear facts. These > are _questions_. But one can draw some conclusions even from > questions. > > According to discussions with collegues and other interested > parties, here and at Yalta conference, I'd like to finish my comments > with the following conclusions: > > Most Ukrainian ISPs are voting against an attempt to establish > an "RR for CIS"; what is CIS, anyway? By the way, Russia > is a federation itself, so Russia alone is in fact a region. > So creating of RR for Russia in RosNIIROS would be much more correct, > and make it so. > > In case RIPE will create a RIPN-based "RR for CIS" it would be > boycotted by most Ukrainian ISPs due to unclear political > and financial reasons of it's creation. We prefer dealing > with RIPE directly -- our contributions to RIPE are > pretty sufficient for this. As for new and young LIRs > in Ukraine -- they in fact do have personnel who know > English. Also Kyiv is much closer to Europe than to > Siberia. > From iga at sovam.com Wed Nov 12 05:14:13 1997 From: iga at sovam.com (Igor V. Semenyuk) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:14:13 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at Nov 11, 97 07:59:00 pm Message-ID: <199711120414.HAA00371@thesun> What's the buzz? Why are you so aggrevated? From the very beginning we were much confident that the Ukraine won't ever go for this, no single chance for that. There also are other contries in CIS wich probably won't accept this proposal as well. And it's not clear which countries will accept and which reject the proposal. Hence CIS had been chosen as a generic name. Had it been CIS (but not Ukraine) it would have certainly satisfied you but that's ridiculous. The whole idea of the document is to start a discussion in all CIS countries and let them decide are they supporting the idea or not. You (all or most or major Ukranian ISPs) seems to have made you choice - nice, nobody won't ever force you to receieve the service from so hated Russia, but what all this buzz, all these political speculations are for? Let other people decide by themselves, they certainly may have different views and different opinions and your country's situation doesn't apply to them. > Being a person who actually operate one of the major > LIRs in Ukraine, UA.GU, with almost 5 years of experience > of administering IP networks, > I'd like to comment on both the approach > of ripe-167 and on some actual statements of it. You cerainly are throwing such a heavy weight against what seems to have no business with your business. > > I'd also like to provide some proposals about how to > improve the state of affairs at least for Ukraine. This is certainly very good but has nothing to do with the proposal per se. > > I'm Cc:-ing this message to all interested parties, > in a hope that a broader discussion will start then. Sure you do. You also would have done a good thing if your had you not used ripe-167 as a basis for your statements. > > ripe-167 was also discussed by the Ukrainian First National > Conference "Internet technologies in National > Information Infrastrure", in Yalta, November 3-6, > organized under supervision of Ukrainian Ministry of > Information and National Agency for Informatization. > This is why there wasn't an earlier reply -- now > my comments are accomodating the results of the discussion. Very nice. So let take your statement as opinion of Ukrainian ISPs toward the proposal and stop buzzin around about it. Other people will decide themselces and certainly not based on false assumption and political hatred. > Let's examine the document below. > > -------------------------- ripe-167.txt -------------------------------- > # > # A Regional Internet Registry for the Commonwealth of Independent States > # > # Robert Blokzijl > # Daniel Karrenberg > # Alexei Platonov > # 2 October 1997 > # > # Table of Contents > # > # 1.Scope > # 2.Background > # 3.Local Service Arrangement > # 4.New Regional Registry > # 5.Next Steps > # 6.Addresses of the Authors > # ______________________________________________________________ > # > # 1.Scope > # > # This memorandum is intended to focus discussion about the > # establishment of a Regional Internet Registry serving the CIS and > # surrounding areas. Public comments are invited. The ultimate aim of > # this process is to achieve rough consensus about the issue within > # the region concerned. This memo represents the views of the > # individual authors only. It has not been endorsed by any > # organisation. > # > # 2.Background > # > # Since the start of the RIPE NCC as a regional Internet registry in > # April 1991 Russia and the other countries of the CIS (former USSR) > # have been served by the RIPE NCC. Developments of the last few > # years however suggest that it is difficult for the RIPE NCC to > # serve all parts of this area because in practise there exist a > # number of practical problems. These problems have to do with > # circumstances caused by: > # > # - local language problems > # > This is not a problem. There is an axiom that at least for > ISP there is at least one person onsite who has sufficient > English skills to communicate with RIPE personnel. What a certainity! "Axiom" - not less than that. You definitely talked to every ISP in every CIS country and they told you about that. How fun. > > # - time zone differences > # > Assignment of IP address space and establishment of LIRs > aren't a matter of minutes and even hours aren't always > that critical. In any case, if the process will take some time, > it's not that big a problem. Apparently RIR has nothing to do but the things you mentioned. I wonder why there's lot of staff at RIPE and they hire more and more. Daniel, are you people mostly hanging around without anything to do? :-) > > # - travel difficulties > # > # - effort necessary to organise coordination meetings > > Mailing lists aren't that bad for coordination, anyway. Sure they are. Another stone for RIPE - what are you spending money for - meetings ain't necessary, "anyway". :-) > > # If has been suggested more than once that the countries of the CIS > # in fact form a separate region from Europe that needed special > # regional support. > > This thesis isn't historically or politically correct. > First of all, CIS isn't something solid or clearly defined, > xUSSR is a much better definition. Oh, you are looking for additinal support, aren't. You would habe been more happy had the document referenced to exUSSR - then Baltic countries would have been involved (certainly on your side). No, thanks - they already have shown some concern, even with "CIS", which under no circumstances refers to them. > > Some countries of xUSSR belong to Eastern Europe, culturally > and historically. Others are much closer to Middle East. > And anyway, this is a set of _different_ countries, > often they are much more isolated one from another > than any given pair of Western European countries. > Reality is: there isn't such clear "region" as CIS. Is there a "clear" region as Middle East? Asia/Pacific? Europe after all? Guided by your approach - no. CIS *is* a formal entity, they even have some govermental bodies. You seems not to understand one point (and it's probably not clearly stated in the document) - the would-be RIR will serve *some* countries in CIS region and any other country that may decide (by majority, or by consensus) to receive the services from it. > > # Because of these difficulties the RIPE NCC has cooperated with the > # Russian Institute of Public Networks, RosNIIROS. RosNIIROS is also > # known by its english acronym: RIPN. RosNIIROS have acted since > # 1992, in close cooperation with RIPE NCC, as a Local IR of last > # resort. They also support the Local IR activities of a significant > # number of ISPs in the region. > # > # 3.Local Service Arrangement > # > # As everywhere else in the world, also Russia and the CIS have seen > # a rapid growth in Internet activities, including a growth in the > # number of ISPs. Currently about 100 ISPs are active in the region, > # of which around 60 are located in Russia. > > If the above statement was supplied by some statistics > and numbers, the picture might be much more clear. > As for me, I consider the total of 100 is somewhat > underestimated. There are about 500 acting ISPs in Russian alone, but most of them are not receiving and probably will never receive services from RIR (RIPE or any other) directly, they talk to their upstream providers. Are there more than 30 ISPs paying for services to RIPE in the Ukraine? I doubt it (just checked - 17, not counting multi-nationals; in Russia there are 62). > > # The current growth is > # about 3 new ISPs per month. Most of the new ISPs are located in the > # Urals region and further east in Siberia. > > Note: Urals and Siberia are parts of a single country -- Russia. Nice excersize in geography. > > # Because of this growth > # and the difficulties described above, the RIPE NCC is exploring > # ways to ensure optimal service for these registries. > # > # The RIPE NCC are currently considering to ask RosNIIROS to provide > # full local support equivalent to that supplied by the Amsterdam > # RIPE office to local registries in the region that wish to use it. > # The NCC would remain fully responsible for operations including > # service level and quality. The NCC would provide all necessary > # resources to RosNIIROS. Local registries in the region would > # continue to have a service agreement with the RIPE NCC but have the > # option to receive service according to their preference from either > # RosNIIROS or the RIPE NCC, but not both at the same time. We > # envisage to start this arrangement sometime during the first > # quarter of 1998. Of course all this will happen under the guidance > # of the RIPE Local IR working group and IANA > # > # The subsequent period can then be used by RosNIIROS to gain > # experience and increase the acceptance of their service. This time > # will also be used to get a clearer idea of the exact extent of the > # region served by the potential RIR. We expect this period to last > # at least 12 months but not more than 24 months. > # > # 4.New Regional Registry > # > # We expect that the above arrangement will work well. Because of > # that it will eventually be used by the majority of the Local IR s > # in the region. Steps will then be taken to convert the local > # service arrangement into its own Regional Internet Registry > # separate from the RIPE NCC. A prerequisite for this is widespread > # acceptance, appropriate governance mechanisms and a truly > # international scope. > # > # This whole process needs active involvement of all ISP's in the > # region in the governance of the Regional IR RosNIIROS will actively > # pursue to gain the acceptance and help to put the appropriate > # governance mechanisms in place. > # > # 5.Next Steps > # > # The authors invite a public discussion about this process > # especially within the CIS region but also within RIPE in general. > # RIPE NCC and RosNIIROS will take preparatory steps late this year. > # If the discussion reveals no serious objections the local service > # arrangement will start sometime during Q1/1998. Everything below are just a speculations and you confessed in that yourself they are just that (though he shyly called them "questions"). The conclusion is another example of political nonsense brought into this, and threatenning with "boycotting" is a pure example of it. Sure, the issue in question has some political implications and most people are aware of it, but we are trying to distantiate from it by all means. You are bringing it, and only it into the discussion in a very rude manner. Please restarin from it. And, BTW, you seems to forgot what you have promised above: : I'd also like to provide some proposals about how to : improve the state of affairs at least for Ukraine. Though, I'm very glad you did, as I said above. > > What are the conclusion of reviewing this document? > > 1. The document is based on political and historical > ideas from an epoque of 5 years ago. They aren't correct > anymore. > 2. The document doesn't provide a solid set of argumentation, > neither in favor of "RR for xUSSR countries" creation itself, > nor in favor of creation of this RR in Moscow. > > As one can't get enough information from the document itself, > what might be at the background of it? > > a. RosNIIROS is a governmental institution, it isn't > a collaborative organisation. It's activity reflects > the policy of a single government -- Russian -- and this > policy often directly contradicts the interests of > other xUSSR countries. > > b. In the nearest past, Russian government started establishing > a policy of strong governmental regulation for Internet > activity on Russian territory. > > c. RosNIIROS isn't a single entity in Russia trying to achieve > the major role in regulating and directing Internet activity. > Naturally, they also might have an interest in broadening > their role to the whole xUSSR, to get a bonus in this > "competition". > > d. Holding an RR for a set of adjucent countries will allow > Russian governmental institutions to monitor Internet > activities there and even get some influence on them. > > e. Being an RR allows providing of the service involves getting > some funds from the customers, in this case -- from ISPs. > Probably, governmental funding of RosNIIROS isn't > enough for them today, and additional funding is > badly needed. > > These are my guesses and impressions, not clear facts. These > are _questions_. But one can draw some conclusions even from > questions. > > According to discussions with collegues and other interested > parties, here and at Yalta conference, I'd like to finish my comments > with the following conclusions: > > Most Ukrainian ISPs are voting against an attempt to establish > an "RR for CIS"; what is CIS, anyway? By the way, Russia > is a federation itself, so Russia alone is in fact a region. > So creating of RR for Russia in RosNIIROS would be much more correct, > and make it so. > > In case RIPE will create a RIPN-based "RR for CIS" it would be > boycotted by most Ukrainian ISPs due to unclear political > and financial reasons of it's creation. We prefer dealing > with RIPE directly -- our contributions to RIPE are > pretty sufficient for this. As for new and young LIRs > in Ukraine -- they in fact do have personnel who know > English. Also Kyiv is much closer to Europe than to > Siberia. > > # 6.Addresses of the Authors > # > # Robert Blokzijl > # RIPE Chairman > # > # > # Daniel Karrenberg > # RIPE NCC Manager > # > # > # Alexei Platonov > # RosNIIROS (RIPN) Director > # > # > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Best regards, > Andrew Stesin > > nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE > > > > > > > > > -- Igor V. Semenyuk Internet: iga at sovam.com SOVAM Teleport Phone: +7 095 258 4170 Moscow, Russia Fax: +7 095 258 4133 From AProvost at ecritel.fr Wed Nov 12 09:28:58 1997 From: AProvost at ecritel.fr (Alexandre Provost) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:28:58 +0100 Subject: Cost of links to US Message-ID: <01bcef45$05b71e00$341d69c1@arrakis.ecritel.fr> C'?tait quand m?me bien tant? ! Alexandre PROVOST Directeur Technique Groupe Ecritel France Phone +33 (0)1 40 61 2000 3, Rue Pondichery Fax +33 (0)1 40 61 2001 F-75015 Paris Internet http://www.ecritel.fr FRANCE E-Mail AProvost at Ecritel.Fr AS 8304 X-NCC-RegID fr.ecritel, AS8304 -----Message d'origine----- De : Gilles HUGUENIN ? : lir-wg at ripe.net Date : lundi 10 novembre 1997 14:26 Objet : Re: Cost of links to US >un peu confidentiel comme info ;-) > >-----Message d'origine----- >De : NCC local-ir list Moderator >@ : lir-wg at ripe.net >Cc : Hank Nussbacher >Date : lundi 10 novembre 1997 13:04 >Objet : Cost of links to US > > >> >>------- Forwarded Message >> >>Received: (qmail 615 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 >>Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) >> by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 07:58:13 -0000 >>Received: from taunivm.tau.ac.il by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP >> id AA23238 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:58:11 +0100 >>Message-Id: <9711100758.AA23238 at ncc.ripe.net> >>Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL by VM.TAU.AC.IL (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) >> with BSMTP id 6715; Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:57:16 IST >>Received: from VM.TAU.AC.IL (NJE origin HANK at TAUNIVM) by VM.TAU.AC.IL >(LMail V1 >>.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9621; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:57:16 +0200 >>Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 09:55:40 IST >>From: Hank Nussbacher >>Subject: Cost of links to US >>To: local-ir at ripe.net >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT >> >>For a lecture I am preparing I am in need of some costs. How much >>do you pay (can be in local currency) for a T1/E1 or T3/E3 line to the >>USA. Plz specify via which carrier, and what cable if possible. >> >>Thanks, >>Hank >> >> >>------- End of Forwarded Message >> >> >> > From schiefne at contrib.com Wed Nov 12 10:21:50 1997 From: schiefne at contrib.com (Carsten Schiefner) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:21:50 +0100 Subject: Cost of links to US References: <01bcef45$05b71e00$341d69c1@arrakis.ecritel.fr> Message-ID: <3469752E.4137@contrib.com> Alexandre Provost wrote: > > C'?tait quand m?me bien tant? ! > > Alexandre PROVOST > Directeur Technique > > Groupe Ecritel France Phone +33 (0)1 40 61 2000 > 3, Rue Pondichery Fax +33 (0)1 40 61 2001 > F-75015 Paris Internet http://www.ecritel.fr > FRANCE E-Mail AProvost at Ecritel.Fr > AS 8304 > X-NCC-RegID fr.ecritel, AS8304 Hallo, koennte man hier mal auf englisch diskutieren, bitte? ;-P Viele Gruesse, Carsten Schiefner -- Carsten Schiefner mailto:schiefner at contrib.com TCP/IP GmbH, Berlin (Germany) - Contrib.Net http://www.contrib.com Phone: +49.30.44 33 66-0 Fax: +49.30.44 33 66-15 ====================================================================== From edd at computer.org Wed Nov 12 10:27:49 1997 From: edd at computer.org (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:27:49 +0300 (GMT) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711111958.WAA21029@argo.ripn.net> from "plat@ripn.net" at Nov 11, 97 10:58:01 pm Message-ID: <199711120927.MAA14955@aic.net> Gentlemen and Gentlewomen, it seems we're going to make a mess in the "exUSSR" Internet affairs as we made it with our political and economical ones. I do agree with some points in Mr. Stesin's message, and I do understand his wishes with regard to the proposed RIR for CIS (whatever it means). There are two registries in AM, and I "represent" both of them - at present, we are not interested in a RIR for CIS - we're pretty comfortable with the RIPE (Hello there :-). I would like to ask you to not transfer the discussion about LIRs to the political/ /national/etc levels, yours Edgar am.nic am.armentel From pbj at DK.net Wed Nov 12 10:37:43 1997 From: pbj at DK.net (Peter B. Juul) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:37:43 +0100 (MET) Subject: Cost of links to US In-Reply-To: <3469752E.4137@contrib.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Carsten Schiefner wrote: > > C'?tait quand m?me bien tant? ! > > koennte man hier mal auf englisch diskutieren, bitte? ;-P Nej, hvorfor det? Det g?r da meget godt... :-) Peter B. Juul, DKnet. From sb at online.no Wed Nov 12 11:06:43 1997 From: sb at online.no (Stig Bull) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:06:43 +0100 Subject: Cost of links to US In-Reply-To: References: <3469752E.4137@contrib.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971112110643.00836e10@opus.nextel.no> At 10:37 12.11.97 +0100, Peter B. Juul wrote: >On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Carsten Schiefner wrote: > >> > C'?tait quand m?me bien tant? ! >> >> koennte man hier mal auf englisch diskutieren, bitte? ;-P > >Nej, hvorfor det? Det g?r da meget godt... :-) N?h. La oss holde oss til Engelsk. Stick to English on this mailinglist, please. This thread just causes unwanted noise for many of us, and could result in some of us missing useful information. -- Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards Stig Bull IP-drift Telenor Nextel AS email privat: stig at undernet.org email jobb: sb at online.no Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 From mjaw at ikp.ikp.pl Sat Nov 15 00:14:01 1997 From: mjaw at ikp.ikp.pl (Miroslaw Jaworski) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:14:01 -6000 Subject: Cost of links to US In-Reply-To: <97Nov12.102835met.14338@gateway.hq.atm.com.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Carsten Schiefner wrote: > Alexandre Provost wrote: > > > > C'?tait quand m?me bien tant? ! > > koennte man hier mal auf englisch diskutieren, bitte? ;-P Mit groBe Lust :) MJ ___________________________________________________________________________ Miroslaw.Jaworski at ikp.com.pl (Psyborg) MJ102-RIPE ATM S.A. - IKP division WAN/UNIX adm From alex at Relcom.EU.net Wed Nov 12 12:03:05 1997 From: alex at Relcom.EU.net (Alex P. Rudnev) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:05 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711120927.MAA14955@aic.net> Message-ID: > it with our political and economical ones. I do agree with some points in > Mr. Stesin's message, and I do understand his wishes with regard to the > proposed RIR for CIS (whatever it means). There are two registries in AM, > and I "represent" both of them - at present, we are not interested in a RIR > for CIS - we're pretty comfortable with the RIPE (Hello there :-). I would Certainly, YOU are. But we - we are not happy to solve problems via Amsterdam. I do not meant _we can'not_ - but it's not good idea. Exactly - _we can_ - but we like to be served better. Then, look at tha map - RIPE serves Europe, yes. But CIs and even Russia is not Europe. I do not insist to have there independent LIR at once - but at least you must have some office there, with people speaking in English and Russion, and bank transferese available in Roubles. And there must be someone in Amsterdam who represents our interests, anyway. No matter if Ukrainian are too proud to be served by anyone except Europeans - let's go, or let's choose. I don't think Stesin have spoken about some political issues - just about the same /interests, language, currency/ issues. Through next they'll say _we'd like to be served by the GOD only -:)_. The main idea they (and others) have said was _we'd like to choose_. Now no one have any chance to choose - you must send fax to Amsterdam, transfere money yourself to the Amsterdam, and so on... You (we) can't get a ticket and fly to the RIPE at once - it takes a time to get visas etc. No anybody can phone to Amsterdam - it must be english-speaking person. And so on... That's the issue, just as _CIS is not only europe_ is the issue too. Let's drop out political aspects, of course. > like to ask you to not transfer the discussion about LIRs to the political/ > /national/etc levels, > > yours > > Edgar > am.nic > am.armentel > > > Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax) From oleg at ICMP.Lviv.UA Wed Nov 12 12:11:57 1997 From: oleg at ICMP.Lviv.UA (Oleg Petrovych) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:11:57 +0200 (EET) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711111958.WAA21029@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Alexei Platonov wrote: > Hi, > > I think there is some misunderstanding, may be due to the fact that > some details are not clearly defined in the ripe-167 document. > > The idea is _to start_ the process on the base of RosNIIROS, > as far as it has done something already with this problem. > > If we agree with the idea of RIR, then the work is to be done > within some "collaborative entity" and the model of RIPE is > acceptable. If we need, some international association can be > formally established. I've already discussed it with some of > Russian ISPs, and they also think so. > > Of course, it's not acceptable that Russian Government will > dictate something through RosNIIROS. The latter can play only > _technical_ role (if it'll be decided that it is RosNIIROS > that should do this work after initial period). > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( > of RIR at all, or they don't like it to be based on some Yes, don't like absolute. > organization (say, with international status) located in Moscow ? > > What about Minsk, then ? :-) You can located in Kamchatka, this is your problem:-) > > Best regards, > Alexei Platonov > RosNIIROS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ukrainian Academic and Research Network Petrovych Oleg OP18-RIPE e-mail: oleg at ICMP.Lviv.UA oleg at uar.net From alex at Relcom.EU.net Wed Nov 12 12:21:33 1997 From: alex at Relcom.EU.net (Alex P. Rudnev) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:21:33 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's amazing why someone who want to have the deal with the Amsterdam is against idea to have _additional_ point of service. And why don't you ask _we must be served by InterNIC directly_? > > of RIR at all, or they don't like it to be based on some > Yes, don't like absolute. > > > > What about Minsk, then ? :-) > You can located in Kamchatka, this is your problem:-) No, you are wrong. RIR (call it by any name) MUST be in suck place that: - it's easy to achieve (by plane, train etc) for anyone who are served (no visas, no extra expansive hotels, etc); - it's easy to communicate (language, for example). - it's easy to pay. Minks or Moscow or Kiev - all three are satisfied to this; Kamchatka or Amsterdam - not. From edd at computer.org Wed Nov 12 12:34:22 1997 From: edd at computer.org (Edgar Danielyan) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:34:22 +0300 (GMT) Subject: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: from "alex@Relcom.EU.net" at Nov 12, 97 02:03:05 pm Message-ID: <199711121134.OAA15573@aic.net> > I do not insist to have there independent LIR at once - but at least you > must have some office there, with people speaking in English and Russion, > and bank transferese available in Roubles. And there must be someone in > Amsterdam who represents our interests, anyway. > > The main idea they (and others) have said was _we'd like to choose_. Now > no one have any chance to choose - you must send fax to Amsterdam, > transfere money yourself to the Amsterdam, and so on... You (we) can't > get a ticket and fly to the RIPE at once - it takes a time to get visas > etc. No anybody can phone to Amsterdam - it must be english-speaking > person. And so on... Although I don't completely agree, I'd suggest RIPE to have someone who does speak Russian to serve the needs of Russian-speaking registries from the exSU. Regarding payment in roubles - I don't think this is worth to be discussed, because no country in the "CIS" has "hard" currency, and it will be unethical to pay RIPE in roubles or any other CIS currency - you understand me :-) I also had problems paying in ECU, but RIPE now accepts USD, so we have no problems here... IMHO, of course, regards Edgar From plat at ripn.net Wed Nov 12 16:56:06 1997 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:56:06 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: from "Oleg Petrovych" at "Nov 12, 97 01:11:57 pm" Message-ID: <199711121556.SAA00224@argo.ripn.net> According to Oleg Petrovych: > > > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( I'm sorry. > > of RIR at all, or they don't like it to be based on some > Yes, don't like absolute. ok Best regards, Alexei Platonov From lir-mod at ripe.net Wed Nov 12 17:15:48 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:15:48 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 Message-ID: <199711121615.RAA27628@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 27135 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 12:30:05 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 12:30:05 -0000 Received: from postman.ripe.net by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA15879 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:30:04 +0100 Received: (qmail 27119 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 12:29:50 -0000 Received: from ns.east.ru (195.170.32.18) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 12:29:50 -0000 Received: from ish.east.ru (ish at ish.east.ru [195.170.32.35]) by ns.east.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/BD2) with SMTP id PAA26974; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:27:02 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <199711121227.PAA26974 at ns.east.ru> Reply-To: "Ilya Shulman" From: "Ilya Shulman" To: Cc: , , , Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:29:20 +0300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 I cut off some of the CCs cause I think that's ncc at rip[n,e].net and ncc@[rip[n|e].net will be sufficient. - -----Original Message----- From: Alex P. Rudnev To: local-ir at ripn.net Cc: plat at ripn.net ; stesin at gu.net ; Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net ; Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net ; k13 at nikhef.nl ; postel at isi.edu ; ncc at ripe.net ; hostmaster at ripe.net ; local-ir at ripe.net ; local-ir at ripn.net ; lir-wg at ripe.net ; ncc at ripn.net Date: 12 NOQBRQ 1997 G. 15:10 Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 >I do not insist to have there independent LIR at once - but at least you >must have some office there, with people speaking in English and Russion, >and bank transferese available in Roubles. And there must be someone in >Amsterdam who represents our interests, anyway. as a matter of fact now any ISP in Russia has the right to choose between serving in RIPE or in ROSNIIROS. If you choose RIPN (ROSNIIROS) , you pay more but in roubles, you wait longer (time differences? heh ) but you have local number in Moscow, russian speaking person etc. And ROSNIIROS handle all problems with RIPE. In other words if you choose RIPN instead of RIPE you have all the benefits. However you may choose to receive services directly from RIPE. And then you pay directly to RIPE, talk directly to RIPE. Have a trip to Amsterdam if you wish. I do agree that there are lotsa local problems and it will be better if somebody handles it locally. Your right to choose (c) CNN ;) - ------ Ilya Shulman ish at east.ru +7-095-956-4951 ISH-RIPN East Connection ISP, Moscow, Russia. http://www.east.ru ------- End of Forwarded Message From lir-mod at ripe.net Wed Nov 12 17:16:26 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:16:26 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 Message-ID: <199711121616.RAA27640@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 27306 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 12:55:41 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 12:55:41 -0000 Received: from ns.east.ru by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA19330 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:55:28 +0100 Received: from ish.east.ru (ish at ish.east.ru [195.170.32.35]) by ns.east.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/BD2) with SMTP id PAA01878; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:55:08 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <199711121255.PAA01878 at ns.east.ru> Reply-To: "Ilya Shulman" From: "Ilya Shulman" To: , Cc: , Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:57:25 +0300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 - -----Original Message----- From: Alex P. Rudnev To: local-ir at ripn.net Cc: Alexei Platonov ; stesin at gu.net ; Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net ; Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net ; k13 at nikhef.nl ; postel at isi.edu ; ncc at ripe.net ; hostmaster at ripe.net ; local-ir at ripe.net ; local-ir at ripn.net ; lir-wg at ripe.net ; ncc at ripn.net Date: 12 NOQBRQ 1997 G. 15:20 Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 >*** A Regional IP Registry for Russia and CIS Project *** >It's amazing why someone who want to have the deal with the Amsterdam >is against idea to have _additional_ point of service. >And why don't you ask _we must be served by InterNIC directly_? We all know that after the trial period it is purposed to have a _single_ point of service for all of the ISP working in region. That is one of the reason of the hot discussion in local-ir at ripn.net > >RIR (call it by any name) MUST be in suck place that: no "suck" place please ;)))) >- it's easy to achieve (by plane, train etc) for anyone who are served >(no visas, no extra expansive hotels, etc); please explain why in the hell you may need anything more than a phone call to IR office. ish - ------ Ilya Shulman ish at east.ru +7-095-956-4951 ISH-RIPN East Connection ISP, Moscow, Russia. http://www.east.ru ------- End of Forwarded Message From lir-mod at ripe.net Wed Nov 12 17:18:14 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:18:14 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 Message-ID: <199711121618.RAA27659@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 27315 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 12:56:27 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 12:56:27 -0000 Received: from ns.east.ru by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA18906 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:51:41 +0100 Received: from ish.east.ru (ish at ish.east.ru [195.170.32.35]) by ns.east.ru (8.8.5/8.8.5/BD2) with SMTP id PAA01540; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:57 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <199711121250.PAA01540 at ns.east.ru> Reply-To: "Ilya Shulman" From: "Ilya Shulman" To: , , , Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:53:14 +0300 X-Priority: 3 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 - -----Original Message----- From: Edgar Danielyan To: alex at relcom.EU.net Cc: local-ir at ripn.net ; plat at ripn.net ; stesin at gu.net ; Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net ; Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net ; k13 at nikhef.nl ; postel at isi.edu ; ncc at ripe.net ; hostmaster at ripe.net ; local-ir at ripe.net ; lir-wg at ripe.net ; ncc at ripn.net Date: 12 NOQBRQ 1997 G. 15:20 Subject: Re: [local-ir] Re: ripe-167 >Although I don't completely agree, I'd suggest RIPE to have someone >who does speak Russian to serve the needs of Russian-speaking registries >from the exSU. It may not help, because some time you may need to do smth immidiately and in this case it's really better to have local office if properly working. >Regarding payment in roubles - I don't think this is worth to >be discussed, because no country in the "CIS" has "hard" currency, and >it will be unethical to pay RIPE in roubles or any other CIS currency - >you understand me :-) >I also >had problems paying in ECU, but RIPE now accepts USD, so we have no problems >here... IMHO, of course, The problem is not in ECU/USD payment whatsever. The problem with payment abroad is due to local financial and economical regulations. You need to open currency account, you need to do lot of paperwork to open it and make currency transfer. As far as most Russian ISP working locally and do not need currency account for theit business it's kinda hard for them to open currency account for just 1 transfer/year. Really it is possible to pay with credit cards or from offshore company but not every ISP has possibility to do that. But this only one of the local issue. So once more, local registry ( if properly build and working ) will void lot of local problems. As to the CIS wide, exUSSR wide issues, I think that any ISP either in Russia or in ex-whateveryouwant (CIS || USSR ) region should have the right to choose between RIPE or local IR. At least for the first period of time, which should be longer then enough to build proper infrastructure. What will we do after the end of this period. Move to IPv6 or IPv8? There will be other issues to solve. May be Moon will decide to have local ir ;) ish - ------ Ilya Shulman ish at east.ru +7-095-956-4951 ISH-RIPN East Connection ISP, Moscow, Russia. http://www.east.ru ------- End of Forwarded Message From igor at office.lucky.net Wed Nov 12 17:52:33 1997 From: igor at office.lucky.net (Igor Romanenko) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:52:33 +0200 (EET) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Stesin" at Nov 11, 97 07:59:00 pm Message-ID: <199711121652.SAA00238@office.lucky.net> > Being a person who actually operate one of the major > LIRs in Ukraine, UA.GU, with almost 5 years of experience > of administering IP networks, > I'd like to comment on both the approach > of ripe-167 and on some actual statements of it. > Being the person in charge of UA.LUCKYNET I would definitely agree with Mr.Stesin (despite the fact we work for competing companies ;). I don't think that, Russia being now a foreign state, servicing LIRs from there would make any difference from being served by RIPE itself _even if ROSNIIROS would do the job right_. We have no problems whatsoever either with the language or with money transfers directly to RIPE. >From my experience money transfers to Russia would not be easier ;). Moreover, we are serving both Ukraine and Israel, which is not part of CIS ;) Since RIPE-167 allows us the free choice, I would like to make an official statement in the name of UA.LUCKYNET: We would like to be served by RIPE itself in the future. And let me thank RIPE for the work they've already done for us. -- Igor Romanenko @..@ Office: igor at lucky.net, +380-(44)-244-34-80 (----) Home: igor at frog.kiev.ua ( | | ) http://www.lucky.net/~igor/ " " "Don't point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot" Model 357four Owners Manual From violet at rosnet.net Wed Nov 12 23:05:03 1997 From: violet at rosnet.net (Sergey A. Mukhin) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:05:03 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: message from Alexei Platonov on Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:56:06 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <199711122205.BAA15371@janus.rosmail.com> > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:56:06 +0300 (MSK) > Cc: plat at ripn.net, stesin at gu.net, Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net, Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net, k13 at nikhef.nl, postel at isi.edu, ncc at ripe.net, hostmaster at ripe.net, local-ir at ripe.net, local-ir at ripn.net, lir-wg at ripe.net, ncc at ripn.net > From: Alexei Platonov > > According to Oleg Petrovych: > > > > > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea > > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' in English. Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? > > I'm sorry. > > > > of RIR at all, or they don't like it to be based on some > > Yes, don't like absolute. > > ok > > Best regards, > Alexei Platonov > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sergey A. Mukhin | violet at rosnet.net Network Administrator | http://violet.rosnet.net/ Russian Telecommunications Network | Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15 Moscow, Russia | + 7 095 755 85 88 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly. * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sb at online.no Thu Nov 13 07:50:42 1997 From: sb at online.no (Stig Bull) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:50:42 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711122205.BAA15371@janus.rosmail.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971113075042.0081fa00@opus.nextel.no> At 01:05 13.11.97 +0300, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: [ snip ] >> > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea >> > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( > >Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' >in English. > >Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? > How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? -- Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards Stig Bull IP-drift Telenor Nextel AS email privat: stig at undernet.org email jobb: sb at online.no Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 From lir-mod at ripe.net Thu Nov 13 10:01:50 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:01:50 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 Message-ID: <199711130901.KAA29624@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 4673 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 19:52:28 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 19:52:28 -0000 Received: from AlphaSite.ukrpack.net by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA27124 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:52:27 +0100 Received: from sasha.ukrpack.net (amilutin.ukrpack.net [195.230.150.72]) by Alp haSite.ukrpack.net (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id TAA27982 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:52:01 GMT Return-Path: Message-Id: <199711121952.TAA27982 at AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> From: "amilutin" To: Subject: Re: ripe-167 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:46:26 +0200 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With regard to the language; mostly dealing with the Registry comes down to a sending a template which is, if properly filled in, answered by a short message. Other then that you very seldom need any language at all. If the language is still a problem then RosNIIROS would have to produce Russian language set of documents and templates and further Russian language set of standards, something like RIPN167 instead of RIPE167. What then about the entries in databases which are used, by many organizations worldwide as the information source for their routing policy. So it looks like the usage of English is still inevitable. Though, translations of documents with explanations would definitely be of some help for some administrators of newly created ISPs. Kind Regards, Alexander Milutin, INFOCOM, Kiev, Ukraine ------- End of Forwarded Message From MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be Thu Nov 13 10:06:18 1997 From: MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be (MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 10:06:18 +0100 Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: To: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM[] Cc: Subject: Re: ripe-167 Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3042: piet.spiessens at MASTER.PER@BELGACOM VNM3042 -- NAME NOT FOUND Mail cannot deliver the message for one of the following reasons: the appropriate StreetTalk is not available; the recipient's user name was deleted; the recipient's name was not entered correctly. Verify the accuracy of the name entered. If the name you entered is a user name, check to see if the user was deleted. If the name is correct and the user exists, check the connections between the recipient and the sender. You may see this error if you send a message to a list, but one of the names on the list is incorrect or invalid. Anytime a user is deleted, that user name must be removed from all lists that contain the name. ---------------------- Original Message Follows ---------------------- ------- Forwarded Message Received: (qmail 4673 invoked from network); 12 Nov 1997 19:52:28 -0000 Received: from ncc.ripe.net (193.0.0.129) by postman.ripe.net with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 19:52:28 -0000 Received: from AlphaSite.ukrpack.net by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP id AA27124 (5.65a/NCC-2.41); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:52:27 +0100 Received: from sasha.ukrpack.net (amilutin.ukrpack.net [195.230.150.72]) by Alp haSite.ukrpack.net (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id TAA27982 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:52:01 GMT Return-Path: Message-Id: <199711121952.TAA27982 at AlphaSite.ukrpack.net> From: "amilutin" To: Subject: Re: ripe-167 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:46:26 +0200 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With regard to the language; mostly dealing with the Registry comes down to a sending a template which is, if properly filled in, answered by a short message. Other then that you very seldom need any language at all. If the language is still a problem then RosNIIROS would have to produce Russian language set of documents and templates and further Russian language set of standards, something like RIPN167 instead of RIPE167. What then about the entries in databases which are used, by many organizations worldwide as the information source for their routing policy. So it looks like the usage of English is still inevitable. Though, translations of documents with explanations would definitely be of some help for some administrators of newly created ISPs. Kind Regards, Alexander Milutin, INFOCOM, Kiev, Ukraine ------- End of Forwarded Message From Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net Thu Nov 13 10:14:56 1997 From: Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net (Mirjam Kuehne) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:14:56 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:50:42 +0100. <3.0.5.32.19971113075042.0081fa00@opus.nextel.no> Message-ID: <199711130915.KAA29679@x18.ripe.net> Stig Bull writes: * At 01:05 13.11.97 +0300, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: * * [ snip ] * * >> > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea * >> > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( * > * >Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' * >in English. * > * >Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? * > * * How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? * It is important that LIRs hear what's going on in the NCC's service region. These developments may be relevant not only for LIR's in the CIS/xUSSR region. The discussion should however be on the lir-wg list and not on the local-ir list. Constructive discussion is always welcome on the lir-wg list. Kind Regards, Mirjam Kuehne Manager Registration Services RIPE NCC P.S.: I am not sure if people who are subscribed to local-ir at ripn.net are also subscribed to lir-wg at ripe.net. In this case I assume mails do not have to be sent to both lists. * * * -- * * Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards * * Stig Bull * IP-drift * Telenor Nextel AS * * email privat: stig at undernet.org * email jobb: sb at online.no * Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 * From sb at online.no Thu Nov 13 10:36:23 1997 From: sb at online.no (Stig Bull) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:36:23 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711130915.KAA29679@x18.ripe.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971113103623.0083ed10@opus.nextel.no> At 10:14 13.11.97 +0100, Mirjam Kuehne wrote: > > * How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? > * > >It is important that LIRs hear what's going on in the NCC's service region. >These developments may be relevant not only for LIR's in the CIS/xUSSR >region. > >The discussion should however be on the lir-wg list and not on the >local-ir list. Constructive discussion is always welcome on the >lir-wg list. Well, my point is, teaching some people how to write proper English, or show how you say "Why not continue this thread in English?" in your native language, is not relevant at all for all the European ISP's out there, and it generates a lot of noise on these lists. These mailinglists should be used (IMHO) _exclusively_ for sharing knowledge and providing useful information. What about a junkmail at ripe.net alias? ;-) -- Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards Stig Bull IP-drift Telenor Nextel AS email privat: stig at undernet.org email jobb: sb at online.no Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 From neil at COLT.NET Thu Nov 13 10:50:35 1997 From: neil at COLT.NET (Neil J. McRae) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:50:35 +0000 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:36:23 +0100." <3.0.5.32.19971113103623.0083ed10@opus.nextel.no> Message-ID: <199711130950.JAA22037@NetBSD.noc.COLT.NET> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:36:23 +0100 Stig Bull wrote: > Well, my point is, teaching some people how to write proper English, or > show how you say "Why not continue this thread in English?" in your native > language, is not relevant at all for all the European ISP's out there, and > it generates a lot of noise on these lists. These mailinglists should be > used (IMHO) _exclusively_ for sharing knowledge and providing useful > information. > > > What about a junkmail at ripe.net alias? ;-) > > Who are you to decide whats relevant for me and whats not? Would it not be easier for you to stop wasting other peoples time and unsubscribe from the RIPE lists. You clearly aren't interested in what happens to the RIPE and the Internet at as whole. I for one want to know whats happening. Please shut up. Regards, Neil. -- Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking. C O L T I N T E R N E T neil at COLT.NET Ascend GRF: 100% CpF [Cisco protection Factor] Free the daemon in your computer! From sb at online.no Thu Nov 13 10:48:32 1997 From: sb at online.no (Stig Bull) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:48:32 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711130950.JAA22037@NetBSD.noc.COLT.NET> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971113104832.008117e0@opus.nextel.no> At 09:50 13.11.97 +0000, Neil J. McRae wrote: >On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:36:23 +0100 >Who are you to decide whats relevant for me and whats not? Er det relevant for deg og resten av Europa n?r jeg skriver slike mail p? mitt spr?k? (Is it relevant for you and the rest of Europe when I write mails like this in my native language?) > >Would it not be easier for you to stop wasting other peoples time >and unsubscribe from the RIPE lists. You clearly aren't interested >in what happens to the RIPE and the Internet at as whole. I for one >want to know whats happening. I think you missed my point. Please re-read my email. I said these lists should be used for useful information, *not* for sending "Hi mom!" mails. End of discussion. -- Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards Stig Bull IP-drift Telenor Nextel AS email privat: stig at undernet.org email jobb: sb at online.no Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 From plat at ripn.net Thu Nov 13 14:49:37 1997 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:49:37 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971113075042.0081fa00@opus.nextel.no> from "Stig Bull" at "Nov 13, 97 07:50:42 am" Message-ID: <199711131349.QAA11278@argo.ripn.net> According to Stig Bull: > At 01:05 13.11.97 +0300, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > > [ snip ] > > >> > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea > >> > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( > > > >Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' > >in English. > > > >Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? > > > > How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? > Yes, it is reasonable to use local-ir at ripn.net, if we need further discussion. The list is in Russian (but of course, we can use English or any other :-) ) Regards, Alexei Platonov RosNIIROS (RIPN) From Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net Thu Nov 13 16:42:58 1997 From: Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net (Mirjam Kuehne) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:42:58 +0100 Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:49:37 +0300. <199711131349.QAA11278@argo.ripn.net> Message-ID: <199711131543.QAA01491@x18.ripe.net> Alexei Platonov writes: * According to Stig Bull: * > At 01:05 13.11.97 +0300, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: * > * > [ snip ] * > * > >> > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea * > >> > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( * > > * > >Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' * > >in English. * > > * > >Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? * > > * > * > How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? * > * * Yes, it is reasonable to use local-ir at ripn.net, if we need * further discussion. The list is in Russian (but of course, we * can use English or any other :-) ) * Please do not move the discussion from lir-wg at ripe.net. I (and others at the RIPE NCC and probably also some of the non russian speaking registries) would like to follow it. Thanks, Mirjam Kuehne RIPE NCC * Regards, * Alexei Platonov * RosNIIROS (RIPN) * * * * From plat at ripn.net Thu Nov 13 17:45:58 1997 From: plat at ripn.net (Alexei Platonov) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:45:58 +0300 (MSK) Subject: ripe-167 In-Reply-To: <199711131543.QAA01491@x18.ripe.net> from "Mirjam Kuehne" at "Nov 13, 97 04:42:58 pm" Message-ID: <199711131645.TAA14052@argo.ripn.net> Hi, I'll check that lir-wg at ripe.net is included in discussion lists. Regards, Alexei Platonov According to Mirjam Kuehne: > > Alexei Platonov writes: > * According to Stig Bull: > * > At 01:05 13.11.97 +0300, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote: > * > > * > [ snip ] > * > > * > >> > > I didn't quite understand, Ucrainian ISPs don't like the idea > * > >> > Please, as the first step, write "Ukraine" rigthly:-( > * > > > * > >Well, for that matter, never use `rightly', there is just `right' > * > >in English. > * > > > * > >Have you something to offer as the second step, or that's all? > * > > > * > > * > How about moving this discussion *off* the *@ripe.net list? > * > > * > * Yes, it is reasonable to use local-ir at ripn.net, if we need > * further discussion. The list is in Russian (but of course, we > * can use English or any other :-) ) > * > > Please do not move the discussion from lir-wg at ripe.net. I (and others > at the RIPE NCC and probably also some of the non russian speaking > registries) would like to follow it. > > Thanks, > Mirjam Kuehne > RIPE NCC > > > * Regards, > * Alexei Platonov > * RosNIIROS (RIPN) > * > * > * > * > From dol at east.ru Fri Nov 14 10:44:35 1997 From: dol at east.ru (Basil V. Dolmatov) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:44:35 +0300 (MSK) Subject: Subscribe Message-ID: <199711140944.MAA00931@ns.east.ru> subscribe lir-wg at east.ru -------------------------------------- Basil (Vasily) Dolmatov dol at east.ru +7-095-956-4951 East Connection ISP, Moscow, Russia. (http://www.east.ru) Nick handles ;) : BVD12, DOL1-RIPE, VVD2-RIPN From lir-mod at ripe.net Mon Nov 17 13:29:51 1997 From: lir-mod at ripe.net (NCC local-ir list Moderator) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:29:51 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Message-ID: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 From: "Mark Simcoe" To: Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Hi, We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out how to stop us from being used in this fashion. I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for them without paying us a penny. Please someone help, Mark. ------- End of Forwarded Message From stalder at switch.ch Mon Nov 17 13:30:03 1997 From: stalder at switch.ch (stalder at switch.ch) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:30:03 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Message-ID: <9711171231.AA20099@ncc.ripe.net> This is an automatic reply. Feel free to send additional mail, as only this one notice will be generated. The following text is a prerecorded message, sent on behalf of stalder at switch.ch (business) and tom at coco.ch (private eMail). I'll be back in my office on February 23, 1998. If your message was urgent, you might resend it to Please refer to http://www.switch.ch/misc/contact.html for further SWITCH contact addresses ! Kind regards, Thomas Stalder From MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be Mon Nov 17 13:37:16 1997 From: MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be (MAILER-DAEMON-VINES01 at vines.is.belgacom.be) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 13:37:16 +0100 Subject: Undeliverable Message Message-ID: To: SMTP_GATEWAY at IS.2624225@BELGACOM[] Cc: Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3042: piet.spiessens at MASTER.PER@BELGACOM VNM3042 -- NAME NOT FOUND Mail cannot deliver the message for one of the following reasons: the appropriate StreetTalk is not available; the recipient's user name was deleted; the recipient's name was not entered correctly. Verify the accuracy of the name entered. If the name you entered is a user name, check to see if the user was deleted. If the name is correct and the user exists, check the connections between the recipient and the sender. You may see this error if you send a message to a list, but one of the names on the list is incorrect or invalid. Anytime a user is deleted, that user name must be removed from all lists that contain the name. ---------------------- Original Message Follows ---------------------- ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 From: "Mark Simcoe" To: Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Hi, We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out how to stop us from being used in this fashion. I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for them without paying us a penny. Please someone help, Mark. ------- End of Forwarded Message From sb at online.no Mon Nov 17 13:35:48 1997 From: sb at online.no (Stig Bull) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:48 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19971117133548.0084ee50@opus.nextel.no> At 13:29 17.11.97 +0100, NCC local-ir list Moderator wrote: > >------- Forwarded Message > >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 >From: "Mark Simcoe" >To: >Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > >Hi, > >We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and >it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our >backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out >how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > >I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some >expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > >As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems >from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for >them without paying us a penny. > >Please someone help, Set up an access list in your main router and block incoming smpt traffic for the entire net-address of this company or for the mailservers they own. -- Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards Stig Bull IP-drift Telenor Nextel AS email privat: stig at undernet.org email jobb: sb at online.no Tlf sentralbord: 22 77 19 00 From mdavids at casema.net Mon Nov 17 13:41:36 1997 From: mdavids at casema.net (Marco Davids) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:41:36 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> Message-ID: <199711171241.NAA25311@casema.net> Hi, Please stop putting the word Urgent in your mails. My GSM starts beeping for that! (SMS-messages). Anyway, since it probably is an urgent matter you are forgivven.... Have a look at http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~ca It implements quite well and works great. Good luck! > To: lir-wg at ripe.net > Reply-to: lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:29:51 +0100 > From: NCC local-ir list Moderator > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 > From: "Mark Simcoe" > To: > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > > Hi, > > We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and > it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our > backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out > how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > > I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some > expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > > As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems > from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for > them without paying us a penny. > > Please someone help, > > Mark. > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > -- Marco Davids +31(0)15 2569284 fax: +31(0)15 2158286 N.V. Casema Kabeltelevisie mailto:mdavids at casema.net Internet Systemadministrator http://www.casema.net/~mdavids InterNIC: MD2446 RIPE: MD270-RIPE Thought for the day: The only thing that hurts more than paying income tax is not having to pay income tax. From mjaw at ikp.ikp.pl Thu Nov 20 02:42:19 1997 From: mjaw at ikp.ikp.pl (Miroslaw Jaworski) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:42:19 -6000 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <97Nov17.133645met.14341@gateway.hq.atm.com.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, NCC local-ir list Moderator wrote: > As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems > from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for > them without paying us a penny. maybe simple wrapper and one line in config: EXCEPT network/mask or access list on router before this mail server ( best : on border router on your network ) ? MJ ___________________________________________________________________________ Miroslaw.Jaworski at ikp.com.pl (Psyborg) MJ102-RIPE ATM S.A. - IKP division WAN/UNIX adm From coutel at pt.lu Mon Nov 17 14:46:24 1997 From: coutel at pt.lu (Thierry Coutelier) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:46:24 +0000 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> Message-ID: <199711171246.NAA20998@mailsvr.pt.lu> http://www.sendmail.org/antispam.html And if you can read German: http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~ca/email/ In case you use a SUN you may have to download the sendmail 8.8.8 from ftp.sendmail.org Good Luck > To: lir-wg at ripe.net > Reply-to: lir-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:29:51 +0100 > From: NCC local-ir list Moderator > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 > From: "Mark Simcoe" > To: > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > > Hi, > > We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam > companies and it crashed one of our mail servers, the service > remained unaffected as our backup systems took over but we use > sendmail and I cannot seem to find out how to stop us from being > used in this fashion. > > I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I > need some expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to > stop it. > > As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our > systems from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver > their mail for them without paying us a penny. > > Please someone help, > > Mark. > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 > From: "Mark Simcoe" > To: > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > > Hi, > > We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and > it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our > backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out > how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > > I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some > expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > > As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems > from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for > them without paying us a penny. > > Please someone help, > > Mark. > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > ------------------------------------------------- Coutelier Thierry Entreprise des P&T Voice: +352-4088-7746 10, Rue D'Epernay Fax : +352-489324 L-1010 LUXEMBOURG Home : +352-356971 http://www.prophecy.lu ------------------------------------------------- From pmd at tcp.net.uk Mon Nov 17 13:52:32 1997 From: pmd at tcp.net.uk (Phil Dye) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> from NCC local-ir list Moderator at "Nov 17, 97 01:29:51 pm" Message-ID: <199711171252.MAA28768@hera.tcp.net.uk> "Mark Simcoe" said; > >We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and >it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our >backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out >how to stop us from being used in this fashion. Whilst a quick addition of a router access-list to filter all traffic from the source will temporarily stop the problem, you (and everyone) need a more permanent solution. >As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems >from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for >them without paying us a penny. I would strongly encourage everyone on this list to urgently review their mail systems, and make sure they have some anti-relay measures installed. For Sendmail, see http://www.sendmail.org/antispam.html, and for more general information, http://spam.abuse.net/ With the growing popularity of the MAPS RBL (http://maps.vix.com), sites not taking the right precautions will find themselves filtered from more and more of the Internet. -- Phil Dye | Work: pmd at tcp.net.uk Network Manager | Play: phil at lart.ing.co.uk Total Connectivity Providers | Consider myself properly disclaimed "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" -anon From jens at ingelheim.twinwave.net Mon Nov 17 13:56:40 1997 From: jens at ingelheim.twinwave.net (Jens Knoell) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:56:40 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! Message-ID: <01bcf358$3f29b1e0$fc2160c3@jens.ing.twinwave.de> >We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and >it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our >backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out >how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > >I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some >expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > >As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems >from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for >them without paying us a penny. hi. question: do you need to relay mail anyway? if not, reconfigure sendmail not to relay mail anymore. we did include code to stop sendmail from relaying on our own system, i am willing to forward you the code fragment... you should compile it yourself though. its the most effective way i know of. you can also achieve this by editing sendmail.cf as far as i know, yet i am not an expert at the config file... i am more the coder type of guy :) sincerely jens knoell twinwave ingelheim (jens at twinwave.net) From neil at COLT.NET Mon Nov 17 22:38:02 1997 From: neil at COLT.NET (Neil J. McRae) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:38:02 +0000 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:29:51 +0100." <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> Message-ID: <199711172138.VAA13162@NetBSD.noc.COLT.NET> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:29:51 +0100 NCC local-ir list Moderator wrote: You need to beef up your security install the sendmail stuff from www.sendmail.org, I'd recommend installing a mail relay agent that was "with it" like qmail. www.qmail.org. Basically I shouldn't be able to get this: Trying 195.62.194.5... Connected to genesis.netcentral.co.uk. Escape character is '^]'. BSDI BSD/OS 2.1 (genesis.netcentral.co.uk) (ttyp1) login: > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 > From: "Mark Simcoe" > To: > Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > > Hi, > > We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and > it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our > backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out > how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > > I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some > expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > > As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems > from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for > them without paying us a penny. > > Please someone help, > > Mark. > > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > -- Neil J. McRae - Alive and Kicking. C O L T I N T E R N E T neil at COLT.NET Ascend GRF: 100% CpF [Cisco protection Factor] Free the daemon in your computer! From Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net Wed Nov 19 12:26:47 1997 From: Mirjam.Kuehne at ripe.net (Mirjam Kuehne) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:26:47 +0100 Subject: new IPv6 internet-drafts Message-ID: <9711191126.AA25788@ncc.ripe.net> Dear Local Internet Registries, I would like to draw your attention to the following internet-drafts concerning the IPv6 address format and proposed allocation rules: They can all be obtained on our ftp site: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/internet-drafts/ Most of them are pretty short :-) Kind regards, Mirjam Kuehne Manager Registration Services RIPE NCC ---------------------------Message 1 -------------------------------------- ------- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:53 -0500 From: The IESG Sender: scoya at cnri.reston.va.us To: IETF-Announce:group list ; Cc: ipng at sunroof.eng.sun.com Subject: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard ------- The IESG has received a request from the IPNG Working Group to consider the following: o IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture for publication as a Proposed Standard. Note: This document is a replacement for RFC1884, which will be reclassified as Historic. o An IPv6 Aggregatable Global Unicast Address Format for publication as a Proposed Standard. Note: This document is a replacement for RFC2073, which will be reclassified as Historic. o IPv6 Testing Address Allocation as an Experimental protocol. Note: This document is a replacement for RFC1897, which will be reclassified as Historic. o IPv6 Multicast Address Assignments as an Informational RFC. The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the iesg at ietf.org or ietf at ietf.org mailing lists by November 26, 1997. ------------------------- Message 2 ----------------------------------------- To: IETF-Announce at ietf.org Cc: ipng at sunroof.eng.sun.com From: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipngwg-tla-assignment-01.txt Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:06:20 -0500 Sender: cclark at cnri.reston.va.us A Revised Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPNG Working Group of the IETF. Title : TLA and NLA Assignment Rules Author(s) : B. Hinden, M. O'Dell Filename : draft-ietf-ipngwg-tla-assignment-01.txt Pages : 6 Date : 10-Nov-97 This document defines assignment rules for Top-Level Aggregation Identifiers (TLA ID) and Next-Level Aggregation Identifiers (NLA ID) as defined in [AGGR]. These rules apply to registries allocating TLA ID's and to organizations receiving TLA ID's. [..] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From vaden at texoma.net Wed Nov 19 19:12:07 1997 From: vaden at texoma.net (Larry Vaden) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:12:07 -0600 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! In-Reply-To: <199711171229.NAA09981@x18.ripe.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971119121207.02f0e6b0@postoffice.texoma.net> Mark et al, There is an excellent page at regarding how to stop the use of your mail server as a relay. I hope this information is helpful to you. Regards, Larry ----- At 01:29 PM 11/17/97 +0100, NCC local-ir list Moderator wrote: > >------- Forwarded Message > >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:42 -0000 >From: >To: >Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! > >Hi, > >We have just been used as a smtp relay for one of the US spam companies and >it crashed one of our mail servers, the service remained unaffected as our >backup systems took over but we use sendmail and I cannot seem to find out >how to stop us from being used in this fashion. > >I know this is not the correct list for this sort of thing but I need some >expert advice as our software suppliers don't know how to stop it. > >As a general warning to everyone out there we need to protect our systems >from these people who are starting to use us all to deliver their mail for >them without paying us a penny. > >Please someone help, > >Mark. > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > > Larry Vaden 903-813-4500 Internet Texoma, Inc. 800-697-0206 Member ISP/C, TISPA Fax 903-868-8551 From seb at cur-archamps.fr Wed Nov 19 19:33:58 1997 From: seb at cur-archamps.fr (Sebastien Delcroix) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:33:58 +0100 Subject: Urgent, being used as spam relay Please Help! References: <3.0.3.32.19971119121207.02f0e6b0@postoffice.texoma.net> Message-ID: <34733116.E0269A23@cur-archamps.fr> a simple configuration: edit a file /etc/sendmail.relaylist with your own domain and other domain that you want to permit relaying. put in your mc file (if you use the m4 kit configurator) or directly in /etc/sendmail.cf (but you need to remove the two lines LOCAL_*) the configuration below. Restart your sendmail. You need to use the latest version of sendmail (8.8.8) => there's no known security hole. The last point, take care with TAB in the mc file or with /etc/senmail.cf file (look at the comments ;-) ) ----8<--------- Cut here -------------------------- LOCAL_CONFIG FR-o /etc/sendmail.relaylist LOCAL_RULESETS # TAB stop should be -><- here Scheck_rcpt # anything terminating locally is ok R< $+ @ $=w > $@ OK R< $+ @ $* $=R > $@ OK # anything originating locally is ok R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_name} $) R$=w $@ OK R$* $=R $@ OK R$@ $@ OK # anything else is bogus R$* $#error $: "571 Relaying Denied" ----8<--------- Cut here -------------------------- A+ PS: sorry for my english ;-) -- SeB-] From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Wed Nov 26 18:05:00 1997 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:05:00 +0100 Subject: Last Call: IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture to Proposed Standard In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:53 EST. <199711122330.SAA27435@ietf.org> References: <199711122330.SAA27435@ietf.org> Message-ID: <9711261705.AA03735@ncc.ripe.net> Authors Robert Blokzijl RIPE Chair Daniel Karrenberg RIPE NCC General Manager Background RIPE is an organisation founded in 1989 wich aims to ensure the technical and administrative coordination necessary for the operation of the Internet in Europe [ripe-01]. The RIPE NCC performs activities for the benefit of the Internet service providers (ISPs) in Europe and the surrounding areas; primarily activities that the ISPs need to organise as a group, although they may be competing with each other in other areas. In particular the RIPE NCC, as Regional Internet Registry, allocates and assigns IPv4 address space in Europe and surrounding areas [ripe-162]. The RIPE NCC started operations in 1992. It currently allocates address space to more than 800 local Internet Registries almost all of which are operated by ISPs. The number of local IRs is expected to reach 1250 in 1998. There are currently no indications that the number of local IRs will stop growing. The authors have contributed significantly to the development of the distributed Internet registry system which is used for the allocation and assignment of provider based IPv4 address space today. As such they have ample experience with the development of address space allocation and assignment policies. One important element of current policies is that the size of address space allocations is determined by previous justified use of address space. A prerequisite for this policy is that the size of allocations can start small and increase or decrease according to previous justified usage [ripe-159]. Argument We believe is critically flawed because it standardises address aggregation boundaries without any explicit technical justification. In particular the length of the TLA and NLA fields are proposed to be standardised as fixed at prarticular values with no technical justification for either the fact that these lengths need to be fixed nor for the particular values chosen. The lack of technical justification is significant because the standardisation of TLA and NLA lengths directly influences many elements of Internet operations including address space allocation policies. In particular the TLA being fixed at 13bit length makes only 8K TLAs available per FP. Consequently Internet Registries will not be able to use proven allocation policies but rather engage in regulatory practises. The rules proposed in are clear evidence of this. Broad acceptance of such rules and their implementation is extremely unlikely unless there is convincing technical reasoning behind the constraints that necessitate the rules. Because of this critical flaw we request that the IESG not advance and to proposed standard yet. We suggest that the IESG refer these documents back to the authors and the WG with the request to provide technical justification for the placement of aggregation boundaries and to consider making these boundaries variable where technically feasible. References The referenced RIPE documents can be accessed at http://www.ripe.net/docs/ripe-xxx.html HTML ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.txt ASCII ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-xxx.ps PostScript