From training at ripe.net Mon Dec 4 18:34:17 1995 From: training at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Training) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 18:34:17 +0100 Subject: Registration for Training Course in Amsterdam closed Message-ID: <9512041734.AA00225@ncc.ripe.net> Dear Local IR's, Local IR Training Course February, 2nd Amsterdam, The Netherlands The registration for this Local IR Training course has now been closed. The course is oversubscribed, so we are, regrettably, not able to accept more attendees. If you are interested in hosting a course for local IR's, we would be happy to do this. To discuss this further, please send mail to . Kind regards, RIPE NCC Training Team From ncc at ripe.net Mon Dec 18 15:05:37 1995 From: ncc at ripe.net (RIPE NCC Staff) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:05:37 +0100 Subject: 23RD RIPE meeting announcement etc. Message-ID: <9512181405.AA27900@ncc.ripe.net> Dear local registry contacts, It is high time that the announcement for the 23rd RIPE meeting goes out. And it is a fact that we like our local registries to all know of this. But this time. I'm not going to fill up your mailboxes by sending all RIPE-meeting-related messages to 2 separate mailinglists. Therefore, if you want to know all about the meeting, please: - subscribe to the ripe-list mailinglist. To do this, mail to majordomo at ripe.net with in the message body: 'subscribe ripe-list'. (The announcement for the meeting & related messages will be sent out tomorrow, Tuesday 19th December.) or - check out ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/Next-Meeting/ Kind regards, Roderik Muit RIPE NCC From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Tue Dec 19 18:13:04 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:13:04 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191113.AA22317@server.net4you.co.at> I'm currently in the process of transfering the Web Server of a German Company called FMFmedia to Austria. There is already a domain deligated to the this Company (fmfmedia.de), with the NameServers pointing to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.nordwest.pop.de >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.space.net >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ecrc.de I asked the Top-Level Reg. for Germany the DE-NIC to change this so the name-server would point to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = server.net4you.co.at >fmfmedia.de nameserver = bkk.bkkallincl.co.at . They said YES of course, but you have to pay 550 DM (about US$ 390) a year for MAINTENANCE of this Name-Server Records. When we pointed out, that we are ourselves a member of RIPE and would do any maintenance ourselfs, they simply refused to acknowledge this and insisted on the payment. Maintenance in DE-NICs eyes is (quoted and translated from German): >... the update of Name-Server Entries, change of Glue-A-RRs, register and >maintain the domain in the RIPE-Database and more.... I do not doubt, that Name-Server Entries (3 lines) and Glue-A-RRs (another 3 lines) are necessarily the duty (!) of a Top Level Domain. But I can't understand, why maintenance in the Ripe-DB must be done by the Top-Level, and what they will do, that is worth 390 Bucks a YEAR ! Keeping (!) 6 lines in ones Name-Server file must be a realy big task ! The InterNIC charges 50 US$ a year for handling domains and they have much more work to do. I understand from my time on the Net (about 5 Years now) that RFCs are the rules of the net. RFC1591 Domain Name System Structure and Delegation states: >..These administrators are performing a public service on >behalf of the Internet community. and > These designated authorities are trustees for the delegated > domain, and have a duty to serve the community. and (my favorite lines) >Concerns about "rights" and "ownership" of domains are >inappropriate. It is appropriate to be concerned about >"responsibilities" and "service" to the community. I can't see DE-NIC in there ! I don't expect DE-NIC to be free of any charge, since there IS work to do and a host and hostmaster to be paid for, but DE-NIC tries to make a quick buck out of the internet boom. Am I making sense ? Someone outthere shares this view ? Please don't hesitate to applaud, flame or ignore this Mail. Regards from a confused and angry netmaster Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Tue Dec 19 18:13:04 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:13:04 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191113.AA22317@server.net4you.co.at> I'm currently in the process of transfering the Web Server of a German Company called FMFmedia to Austria. There is already a domain deligated to the this Company (fmfmedia.de), with the NameServers pointing to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.nordwest.pop.de >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.space.net >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ecrc.de I asked the Top-Level Reg. for Germany the DE-NIC to change this so the name-server would point to: >fmfmedia.de nameserver = server.net4you.co.at >fmfmedia.de nameserver = bkk.bkkallincl.co.at . They said YES of course, but you have to pay 550 DM (about US$ 390) a year for MAINTENANCE of this Name-Server Records. When we pointed out, that we are ourselves a member of RIPE and would do any maintenance ourselfs, they simply refused to acknowledge this and insisted on the payment. Maintenance in DE-NICs eyes is (quoted and translated from German): >... the update of Name-Server Entries, change of Glue-A-RRs, register and >maintain the domain in the RIPE-Database and more.... I do not doubt, that Name-Server Entries (3 lines) and Glue-A-RRs (another 3 lines) are necessarily the duty (!) of a Top Level Domain. But I can't understand, why maintenance in the Ripe-DB must be done by the Top-Level, and what they will do, that is worth 390 Bucks a YEAR ! Keeping (!) 6 lines in ones Name-Server file must be a realy big task ! The InterNIC charges 50 US$ a year for handling domains and they have much more work to do. I understand from my time on the Net (about 5 Years now) that RFCs are the rules of the net. RFC1591 Domain Name System Structure and Delegation states: >..These administrators are performing a public service on >behalf of the Internet community. and > These designated authorities are trustees for the delegated > domain, and have a duty to serve the community. and (my favorite lines) >Concerns about "rights" and "ownership" of domains are >inappropriate. It is appropriate to be concerned about >"responsibilities" and "service" to the community. I can't see DE-NIC in there ! I don't expect DE-NIC to be free of any charge, since there IS work to do and a host and hostmaster to be paid for, but DE-NIC tries to make a quick buck out of the internet boom. Am I making sense ? Someone outthere shares this view ? Please don't hesitate to applaud, flame or ignore this Mail. Regards from a confused and angry netmaster Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From bonito at nis.garr.it Tue Dec 19 15:37:41 1995 From: bonito at nis.garr.it (Antonio_Blasco Bonito) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 15:37:41 MET Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <199512191113.AA22317@server.net4you.co.at>; from "Max Gutberlet" at Dec 19, 95 12:13 pm Message-ID: <199512191437.PAA01341@cuori.nis.garr.it> Dear Mr. Max Gutberlet, you write: > I'm currently in the process of transfering the Web Server of a German > Company > called FMFmedia to Austria. There is already a domain deligated to the this > Company (fmfmedia.de), with the NameServers pointing to: > > >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.nordwest.pop.de > >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ns.space.net > >fmfmedia.de nameserver = ecrc.de > > I asked the Top-Level Reg. for Germany the DE-NIC to change this > so the name-server would point to: > > >fmfmedia.de nameserver = server.net4you.co.at > >fmfmedia.de nameserver = bkk.bkkallincl.co.at > . > > They said YES of course, but you have to pay 550 DM (about US$ 390) a year > for > MAINTENANCE of this Name-Server Records. > > When we pointed out, that we are ourselves a member of RIPE and would do any > maintenance ourselfs, they simply refused to acknowledge this and insisted > on > the payment. > > Maintenance in DE-NICs eyes is (quoted and translated from German): > >... the update of Name-Server Entries, change of Glue-A-RRs, register and > >maintain the domain in the RIPE-Database and more.... > > I do not doubt, that Name-Server Entries (3 lines) and Glue-A-RRs (another 3 > lines) > are necessarily the duty (!) of a Top Level Domain. > But I can't understand, why maintenance in the Ripe-DB must be done by the > Top-Level, > and what they will do, that is worth 390 Bucks a YEAR ! > Keeping (!) 6 lines in ones Name-Server file must be a realy big task ! > > The InterNIC charges 50 US$ a year for handling domains and they have much > more work > to do. The InterNIC handles domains without the checks and maintenance that is common practice of the majority of European NICs, whether they apply fees to recover their costs or not. > I understand from my time on the Net (about 5 Years now) that RFCs are the > rules of the net. > RFC1591 Domain Name System Structure and Delegation states: > > >..These administrators are performing a public service on > >behalf of the Internet community. > and > > These designated authorities are trustees for the delegated > > domain, and have a duty to serve the community. > and (my favorite lines) > >Concerns about "rights" and "ownership" of domains are > >inappropriate. It is appropriate to be concerned about > >"responsibilities" and "service" to the community. > > I can't see DE-NIC in there ! Service may be free of charge or not. This has been intentionally left out of RFC1591. It is up to the TLD administrator to decide such a delicate matter. This is usually done with the consensus of national ISPs. I know this is the case of DE-NIC. > > I don't expect DE-NIC to be free of any charge, since there IS work to do > and a host and hostmaster to be paid for, but DE-NIC tries to make a > quick buck out of the internet boom. > > > Am I making sense ? Someone outthere shares this view ? > > Please don't hesitate to applaud, flame or ignore this Mail. > > Regards from a confused and angry netmaster > > Max Gutberlet > > > > > > > -- > ~\\|//~ > -(o o)- > +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ > | _ _ _ | > | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | > | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | > | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | > | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | > | |___/ | > | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | > | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| > | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | > | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | > | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > Best Regards ---------- ---------- Antonio_Blasco Bonito E-Mail: bonito at nis.garr.it GARR - Network Information Service c=it;a=garr;p=garr;o=nis;s=bonito c/o CNUCE - Istituto del CNR Tel: +39 50 593246 Via S. Maria, 36 Fax: +39 50 904052 I-56126 PISA Telex: 500371 CNUCE I Italy Url: http://www.nis.garr.it/nis/staff/bonito.html ---------- ---------- From nipper at xlink.net Tue Dec 19 16:30:22 1995 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 16:30:22 +0100 (MET) Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <199512191113.AA22317@server.net4you.co.at> from "Max Gutberlet" at Dec 19, 95 12:13:04 pm Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.258:19.11.95.15.30.42"@xlink.net> Max Gutberlet wrote: > > I'm currently in the process of transfering the Web Server of a German > Company > called FMFmedia to Austria. There is already a domain deligated to the this > Company (fmfmedia.de), with the NameServers pointing to: > [ ... some lines deleted ... ] > > I don't expect DE-NIC to be free of any charge, since there IS work to do > and a host and hostmaster to be paid for, but DE-NIC tries to make a > quick buck out of the internet boom. > Hit the right people! DE-NIC located at University of Karlsruhe is acting behalf of IV-DENIC which is a consortia of eight german ISP, namely de.dfn de.ecrc de.eunet de.gtn de.maz de.nacamar de.xlink and PAN AMP GmbH which is not yet registered as RIPE contributor DE-NIC is run by University of Karlsruhe as a three-year contract. DE-NIC acts as maintainer of the toplevel domain DE and still runs the last resort registry. Until Aug, 31th services were payed by the IV-DENIC and registration of a secondlevel domain had to come via an IV-DENIC member. Since Sep, 1st everyone can use services from DE-NIC on a cost basis calculated on figures for running the DE-NIC in 1995 and agreed upon by all IV-DENIC members. Arnold Nipper > > Am I making sense ? Someone outthere shares this view ? > > Please don't hesitate to applaud, flame or ignore this Mail. > > Regards from a confused and angry netmaster > > Max Gutberlet > > > > > > > -- > ~\\|//~ > -(o o)- > +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ > | _ _ _ | > | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | > | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | > | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | > | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | > | |___/ | > | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | > | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| > | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | > | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | > | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich Xlink /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ finger @whois.xlink.net D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany http://www.xlink.net/~nipper From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Tue Dec 19 22:43:09 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:43:09 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191543.AA27538@server.net4you.co.at> > The InterNIC handles domains without the checks and maintenance that is common > practice of the majority of European NICs, whether they apply fees to recover > their costs or not. > Ok, this legalizes a one-time setup fee, we all charge one. But not 390 bucks year after year. And what kind of maintenance is done to a Name-Server Record ? > Service may be free of charge or not. This has been intentionally left out of > RFC1591. It is up to the TLD administrator to decide such a delicate matter. As I stated befor, I do NOT WANT free services. This would only lead to abuse of the registries .But I except a TLD to apply a fee that covers their costs, not to make money. RFC1591 does not discuss commerce in any way. Giving the date this RFC was written, that is no surprise. And that may be one problem. > This is usually done with the consensus of national ISPs. I know this is the > case of DE-NIC. Yep, DE-NIC is founded by the BIG 8 ISPs in Germany called IV-DENIC. I wonder what the other german providers have to say about this topic. But this is not my point. As you wrote, this should be left to the organizations founding such TLD agencies, so I would propose a >e.V< which is (in Austrian and German law) a strict non-profit organization. My Question once again: What task that DE-NIC does and that can't be done by a Ripe member is worth 390 US$ a year? Regards Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Tue Dec 19 23:32:28 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 17:32:28 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191632.AA28478@server.net4you.co.at> -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 04:30 PM > > From: Arnold Nipper \ Internet: (nipper at xlink.net) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet at server.net4you. co.at) [ ... some lines deleted ... ] > DE-NIC is run by University of Karlsruhe as a three-year contract. DE-NIC acts > as maintainer of the toplevel domain DE and still runs the last resort > registry. Until Aug, 31th services were payed by the IV-DENIC and registration > of a secondlevel domain had to come via an IV-DENIC member. Since Sep, 1st > everyone can use services from DE-NIC on a cost basis calculated on figures for > running the DE-NIC in 1995 and agreed upon by all IV-DENIC members. > But I DO NOT want a continous service form DE-NIC except 3 lines in their name server configuration file. EVERYTHING else is handled by us. Besides (I know this is impossible) but I would realy like to see the figures you mentioned. Here is a little calculation (remember we are talking maintenance not setup): Change of Name Server Address per year: 2 Amount of time for change in name server config: 5 min. each ---------------------------------------------- 10 Minutes (1/6 Hour) One Hostmaster Hour 150 US$ ---------------------------------------------- variable Costs 25 US$ Additional Costs per Entry 100% (should cover non technical tasks) non-variable Costs 100% (access to net, host cost a.s.o) ---------------------------------------------- accumulated Costs 75 US$ The RIPE Staff should have a better view on what a hostmaster hour is worth and how much Name-Server changes there are per domain and year. The 100% are from my good old economics professor at the university. Greetings Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From rainer at du.gtn.com Tue Dec 19 18:33:08 1995 From: rainer at du.gtn.com (Rainer Bieniek) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:33:08 +0100 (MEZ) Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <199512191632.AA28478@server.net4you.co.at> from "Max Gutberlet" at Dec 19, 95 05:32:28 pm Message-ID: <199512191733.SAA18361@gtnduss1.du.gtn.com> > > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 04:30 PM > > > > From: Arnold Nipper \ Internet: (nipper at xlink.net) > > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet at server.net4you. > co.at) > > [ ... some lines deleted ... ] > > > DE-NIC is run by University of Karlsruhe as a three-year contract. DE-NIC > acts > > as maintainer of the toplevel domain DE and still runs the last resort > > registry. Until Aug, 31th services were payed by the IV-DENIC and > registration > > of a secondlevel domain had to come via an IV-DENIC member. Since Sep, 1st > > everyone can use services from DE-NIC on a cost basis calculated on > figures for > > running the DE-NIC in 1995 and agreed upon by all IV-DENIC members. > > > > But I DO NOT want a continous service form DE-NIC except 3 lines in their > name server configuration file. EVERYTHING else is handled by us. > Yes, you WANT continous service from them - at least you want a continously running name service. You want a part of the staff's time to do some work for you and so on. Brought down to a basic fact: This service costs money and somebody (and this means you :-) has to pay for it. > Besides (I know this is impossible) but I would realy like to see the > figures you mentioned. Here is a little calculation (remember we are talking > maintenance not setup): > > Change of Name Server > Address per year: 2 > Amount of time for change in > name server config: 5 min. each > ---------------------------------------------- > 10 Minutes (1/6 Hour) > One Hostmaster Hour 150 US$ > ---------------------------------------------- > variable Costs 25 US$ > > Additional Costs per Entry 100% (should cover non technical tasks) > non-variable Costs 100% (access to net, host cost a.s.o) > > ---------------------------------------------- > accumulated Costs 75 US$ > > > The RIPE Staff should have a better view on what a hostmaster hour is worth > and how much Name-Server changes there are per domain and year. The 100% are > from my good old economics professor at the university. > You'd better not bring in your economics professor here :-) He'd only prove what you left out in your calculation Anyway, you demand a service that simply costs money and because of your organization is not a member of IV DE-NIC you pay the same price as any other non-IV DE-NIC-customer. You are still free to ask any of the 8 Big ISP's in germany if they are willing to organize the domain for you. Your RIPE membership does not count on behold of this matter. Rainer Bieniek From svl at csl1.csl-gmbh.net Tue Dec 19 18:43:54 1995 From: svl at csl1.csl-gmbh.net (Siegfried Langenbach) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:43:54 +100 (MEZ) Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <199512191543.AA27538@server.net4you.co.at> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Dec 1995, Max Gutberlet wrote: > Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:43:09 -0500 > From: Max Gutberlet > To: Antonio_Blasco Bonito > Cc: Local Internet Registries in Europe > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > > > My Question once again: What task that DE-NIC does and that > can't be done by a Ripe member is worth 390 US$ a year? I agree with you. In my opinion the price ist too high. I am trying to become a member myself, so hopefully next year I have more information either to defend de-nic or you. > > Regards > Max Gutberlet > > > > > > -- > ~\\|//~ > -(o o)- > +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ > | _ _ _ | > | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | > | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | > | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | > | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | > | |___/ | > | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | > | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| > | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | > | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | > | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | > +----------------------------------------------------------+ > > ______________________________________________________________________ MfG = Regards http://www.csl-gmbh.net Siegfried Langenbach / CSL GmbH / Voice 049 2104 93850 Fax 938555 ______________________________________________________________________ From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Wed Dec 20 01:10:47 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:10:47 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191810.AA30563@server.net4you.co.at> -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 06:33 PM > > From: Rainer Bieniek \ Internet: (rainer at du.gtn.com) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet at server.net4you. co.at) > cc: Local Internet Registries in Europe \ Internet: (local-ir at ripe. net) > > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > [...some lines deleted...] > Yes, you WANT continous service from them - at least you want a continously > running name service. You want a part of the staff's time to do some work for > you and so on. Brought down to a basic fact: > This service costs money and somebody (and this means you :-) has to pay for > it. > No doubt ! My simple question: does the above justify a yearly fee of US$ 390 ? [...some lines deleted...] > Anyway, you demand a service that simply costs money and because of your > organization is not a member of IV DE-NIC you pay the same price as any other > non-IV DE-NIC-customer. You are still free to ask any of the 8 Big ISP's in > germany if they are willing to organize the domain for you. Your RIPE > membership does not count on behold of this matter. > I have NOT been asking for a reasonable price because we are RIPE member, and once again, YES such a service costs money and YES we (= our customer) is willing to pay for it, but once again the price should match the service. And this is obviously not he case. Please feal free to add anything you want to the calculation. -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Greetings Max Gutberlet -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL Tue Dec 19 20:38:22 1995 From: HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:38:22 IST Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 95 17:32:28 -0500 Message-ID: <9512191848.AA19835@ncc.ripe.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 95 17:32:28 -0500 you said: >But I DO NOT want a continous service form DE-NIC except 3 lines in their >name server configuration file. EVERYTHING else is handled by us. > >Besides (I know this is impossible) but I would realy like to see the >figures you mentioned. Here is a little calculation (remember we are talking >maintenance not setup): > >Change of Name Server >Address per year: 2 >Amount of time for change in >name server config: 5 min. each >---------------------------------------------- > 10 Minutes (1/6 Hour) For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 minutes and often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your primary and secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, "But all I want is tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows NT. I am dialing into crISP and I don't want to be user at crISP.net" and on and on and on. And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for "denial of service" and "monopolization". So NICs have to *average* out the time spent. Not all users are as up to date as you are. Lastly, the entry in root does have a processing effect. If you are a popular site in the world, and everyone wants to get to www.tada.co.cc then the root DNS will have to service those requests. Now add up a few thousand DNS entries just like yours and the Unix system needs a memory upgrade. After 3 years it needs a complete overhaul. Who pays for the new hardware? So when doing you calculations, figure on 30 minutes and the deprecation costs of a Unix system. Incidentally, in Israel, where we started charging for domains back in October 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at $50 - one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. >One Hostmaster Hour 150 US$ >---------------------------------------------- >variable Costs 25 US$ > >Additional Costs per Entry 100% (should cover non technical tasks) >non-variable Costs 100% (access to net, host cost a.s.o) > >---------------------------------------------- >accumulated Costs 75 US$ > > >The RIPE Staff should have a better view on what a hostmaster hour is worth >and how much Name-Server changes there are per domain and year. The 100% are >from my good old economics professor at the university. > >Greetings >Max Gutberlet Hank Nussbacher From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Wed Dec 20 02:28:26 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:28:26 -0500 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512191928.AA32154@server.net4you.co.at> -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Tuesday, 19-Dec-95 08:38 PM > > From: Hank Nussbacher \ Internet: (hank at taunivm.tau.ac.il) > To: Max Gutberlet \ Internet: (mgutberlet at server.net4you. co.at) > To: Local Internet Registries in Europe \ Internet: (local-ir at ripe. net) > > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > > For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 minutes and > often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your primary and > secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, "But all I want is > tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows NT. I am dialing into crISP > and I don't want to be user at crISP.net" > > and on and on and on. > I don't think, a TLD should handle direct user request. Does DE-NIC ? Anyway the have a application form ready to download for anybody who asks. And believe me, it is the standard answer, I've heard it ten times at least. The customer handling should be done by the ISP the customer is connected to. And I think this is the current modus operandi anyway. > And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for "denial of > service" and "monopolization". > Thought of that too. [..some lines deleted..] > Lastly, the entry in root does have a processing effect. If you are a popular > site in the world, and everyone wants to get to www.tada.co.cc then the root > DNS will have to service those requests. Now add up a few thousand DNS entries > just like yours and the Unix system needs a memory upgrade. After 3 years it > needs a complete overhaul. Who pays for the new hardware? > So you propose a traffic oriented chargin system ? [..some lines deleted..] Just talked to my favorite Domain Admin here in Austria, he said that traffic has to be considered too, but taking erveything in mind, I'm still far far away from the price they demanded. > Incidentally, in Israel, where we started charging for domains back in October > 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at $50 - > one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. Does this cover your costs ? -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From afink at ping.ch Wed Dec 20 07:36:37 1995 From: afink at ping.ch (Andreas Fink) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:36:37 +0100 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: >-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- >No doubt ! My simple question: does the above justify a yearly fee of US$ >390 ? > They are simply not capable to do their work in a correct amount of time. In my opinion the price should be around 50-100$. The worst thing is that they charge more for works which take less time. Registering a nameserver is more expensive than registering a host (which might change more frequently). But we have to stick with that until their contract terminates. I strongly reccomend to find someone else who does that job until that time. Yust as a remark. Pinging their primary nameserver for germany ns.nic.de 193.196.32.1, returns 48% packet loss. Dont tell me that this is fast. If this server is slow, whole germany is slow... Andreas Fink --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ping Net GmbH, Dorfstrasse 21, 8902 Urdorf, Switzerland afink at ping.ch http://www.ping.ch/ Tel: 01-7358333 Fax: 01-7358334 Administration: admin at ping.ch Tech Support: support at ping.ch --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ping Net Sarl, World Trade Cent er, Av. Gratta Paille 2, 1000 Lausanne 30, Switzerland. Tel: 021-6411339 Fax: 021-6411310 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL Wed Dec 20 08:54:14 1995 From: HANK at VM.TAU.AC.IL (Hank Nussbacher) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 08:54:14 IST Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:28:26 -0500 from Message-ID: <9512200656.AA25177@ncc.ripe.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 95 20:28:26 -0500 you said: >I don't think, a TLD should handle direct user request. Does DE-NIC ? Anyway >the have a application form ready to download for anybody who asks. And >believe me, it is the standard answer, I've heard it ten times at least. > >The customer handling should be done by the ISP the customer is connected >to. And I think this is the current modus operandi anyway. Downloading assumes connectivity. You obviously have never been doing NIC work. We get requests from law firms and other totally non-connected companies to "reserve" a domain name before their competitor gets it. So downloading doesn't always work. >> 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) we set the fee at >$50 - >> one-time and have stuck to it so far without a problem. > >Does this cover your costs ? We believe so - with no profit. >| Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | Hank From nipper at xlink.net Wed Dec 20 11:52:54 1995 From: nipper at xlink.net (Arnold Nipper) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:52:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: from "Andreas Fink" at Dec 20, 95 07:36:37 am Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.696:20.11.95.10.52.58"@xlink.net> Andreas Fink wrote: > > >-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > >No doubt ! My simple question: does the above justify a yearly fee of US$ > >390 ? > > > > They are simply not capable to do their work in a correct amount of time. You are just telling nonsense. We are using DE-NIC services all the day and we are very happy with them. The work is done professional and requests are processed within at most three working days. > In my opinion the price should be around 50-100$. The worst thing is that > they charge more for works which take less time. Registering a nameserver > is more expensive than registering a host (which might change more > frequently). But we have to stick with that until their contract > terminates. I strongly reccomend to find someone else who does that job > until that time. > Dont't talk about things you don't understand. > Yust as a remark. Pinging their primary nameserver for germany ns.nic.de > 193.196.32.1, returns 48% packet loss. Dont tell me that this is fast. If > this server is slow, whole germany is slow... > Connectivity to US is bad but connectivity to Europe is very well. My figures show a loss rate of 7% for i.root-servers.net. > > Andreas Fink > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ping Net GmbH, Dorfstrasse 21, 8902 Urdorf, Switzerland > afink at ping.ch http://www.ping.ch/ Tel: 01-7358333 Fax: 01-7358334 > Administration: admin at ping.ch Tech Support: support at ping.ch > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ping Net Sarl, World Trade Cent er, Av. Gratta Paille 2, > 1000 Lausanne 30, Switzerland. Tel: 021-6411339 Fax: 021-6411310 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- Arnold Nipper / email: nipper at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH \/ phone: +49 721 9652 0 Geschaeftsbereich Xlink /\ LINK fax: +49 721 9652 210 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /_______ finger @whois.xlink.net D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany http://www.xlink.net/~nipper From Sabine.Dolderer at nic.de Wed Dec 20 12:36:34 1995 From: Sabine.Dolderer at nic.de (Sabine Dolderer) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:36:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: from "Andreas Fink" at Dec 20, 95 07:36:37 am Message-ID: <9512201136.AA06683@andreas.nic.de> > From: afink at ping.ch (Andreas Fink) > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > Cc: local-ir at ripe.net > > >-------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > >No doubt ! My simple question: does the above justify a yearly fee of US$ > >390 ? > > > > They are simply not capable to do their work in a correct amount of time. > In my opinion the price should be around 50-100$. The worst thing is that > they charge more for works which take less time. Registering a nameserver > is more expensive than registering a host (which might change more > frequently). But we have to stick with that until their contract > terminates. I strongly reccomend to find someone else who does that job > until that time. Just for clarification. The University of Karlsruhe runs the DENIC on a fixed prize rate for three years on behalf of the IV-DENIC which is a consortium of German service providers. Initially it was intended that everybody who wants service have to become a member of the IV-DENIC and share the costs. As for some reasons it has become necessary to sell service on a per domain base the IV-DENIC started to install the model with the prizes which are discussed at the moment. NOTE: You buy the DENIC service from the IV, not from the University of Karlsruhe. Beside of that everbody is still free to choose if he wants to become a member of the IV-DENIC or buy service on a per domain base. Sabine Dolderer -- _0_ Sabine Dolderer eMail: dolderer at nic.de / \ RZ<-- Rechenzentrum/DE-NIC \_______/ Universitaet Karlsruhe Tel: +49 721 373723 / / | \ \ Postfach 6980 Fax: +49 721 373741 _/_/__|__\_\_ D-76128 Karlsruhe Fax: +49 721 32550 From pab at RMnet.IT Wed Dec 20 14:23:26 1995 From: pab at RMnet.IT (Paolo Bevilacqua) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:23:26 +0100 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Hank Nussbacher "Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry" (Dec 19, 20:38) References: <9512191848.AA19835@ncc.ripe.net> Message-ID: <951220142328.ZM7126@pag> On Dec 19, 20:38, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > Subject: Re: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry > ... > For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 minutes > and often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your > primary and secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, > "But all I want is tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows NT. > I am dialing into crISP and I don't want to be user at crISP.net" > > and on and on and on. > > And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for > "denial of service" and "monopolization". > > So NICs have to *average* out the time spent. Not all users are as > up to date as you are. > I don't think that a delegated TLD registry should necessarely cope with such issues. The InterNIC (and RIPE) model is exemplar. They have clear, published rules, a standard procedure and a ticketing system. They point the misinformed user to books or other info about the DNS. Fax submissions and answers are considered, but email has to be the standard. Phone support should not be given, except for emergencies about pollutioned zones or similar. This should keep the human costs to the minimum. > Lastly, the entry in root does have a processing effect. If you are a > popular site in the world, and everyone wants to get to www.tada.co.cc > then the root DNS will have to service those requests. Now add up > a few thousand DNS entries just like yours and the Unix system needs > a memory upgrade. After 3 years it needs a complete overhaul. Who > pays for the new hardware? > > So when doing you calculations, figure on 30 minutes and the > deprecation costs of a Unix system. > > Incidentally, in Israel, where we started charging for domains back > in October 1994 (before everyone else realized it was necessary) > we set the fee at $50 - one-time and have stuck to it so far > without a problem. > This order of magnitude (under 100$) and a smaller annual fee are perfectly reasonable. May be it's time for a recommandation, formal or informal from the ultimate namespace authorities ? /pab -- Paolo Bevilacqua UniNet IP Services From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Wed Dec 20 15:43:04 1995 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 15:43:04 +0100 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:36:37 MET. References: Message-ID: <9512201443.AA06165@ncc.ripe.net> Gentlepeople, could you please take this discussion off unless there are general issues for the consideration of the WG. Daniel From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Wed Dec 20 16:04:20 1995 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:04:20 +0100 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:23:26 MET. <951220142328.ZM7126@pag> References: <951220142328.ZM7126@pag> Message-ID: <9512201504.AA06653@ncc.ripe.net> > "Paolo Bevilacqua" writes: > > This order of magnitude (under 100$) and a smaller annual fee are > perfectly reasonable. May be it's time for a recommandation, formal or > informal from the ultimate namespace authorities ? Now here we have some general material for the WG. ;-) I do not think that recommending specific prices is a good idea because costs differ locally and the service may also have variations. The recommendation that I have been personally giving everyone running TLDs is 1) to publish their budgets and actual figures so that everyone can verify that budgeting is done prudently and no significant profit is being made, 2) to make sure that those using the service and interested can have influence on how it is provided, 3) to make sure that pricing is as fair as possible. In that order of importance. You will observe that as far as the RIPE NCC is concerned I take my own advice ;-). Maybe these principles should be written up as a RIPE recommendation. I have no time to do it though. Daniel From bonito at nis.garr.it Wed Dec 20 17:05:17 1995 From: bonito at nis.garr.it (Antonio_Blasco Bonito) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 95 17:05:17 MET Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <951220142328.ZM7126@pag>; from "Paolo Bevilacqua" at Dec 20, 95 2:23 pm Message-ID: <199512201605.RAA02471@cuori.nis.garr.it> Excerpt from Paolo Bevilacqua's mail: > > ... > > For you it is 10 minutes but for 80% of the people it is about 30 > minutes > > and often more. "Hello, I'd like a domain name." "Ok, what is your > > primary and secondary DNS?" "My what!!??" explain, explain, explain, > > "But all I want is tada.co.cc! I don't have a Unix system or Windows > NT. > > I am dialing into crISP and I don't want to be user at crISP.net" > > > > and on and on and on. > > > > And if you are not polite and helpful, you get a lawyers letter for > > "denial of service" and "monopolization". > > > > So NICs have to *average* out the time spent. Not all users are as > > up to date as you are. > > > > I don't think that a delegated TLD registry should necessarely cope with > such issues. The InterNIC (and RIPE) model is exemplar. They have > clear, published rules, a standard procedure and a ticketing system. > They point the misinformed user to books or other info about the > DNS. Fax submissions and answers are considered, but email has to be the > standard. Phone support should not be given, except for emergencies > about pollutioned zones or similar. This should keep the human costs to > the minimum. As far as I know: 1- RIPE does not manage any TLD. It manages IP address space allocation. 2- RIPE-NCC staff spends many hours on any possible communication mean (phone, fax, e-mail, meetings, training courses, etc) to train new providers (new registries). That is an unavoidable task of every conscious Network Information Center. The efforts of RIPE-NCC and of the other european NICs have greatly contributed in making the Internet success in Europe. That has some costs... ---------- ---------- Antonio_Blasco Bonito E-Mail: bonito at nis.garr.it GARR - Network Information Service c=it;a=garr;p=garr;o=nis;s=bonito c/o CNUCE - Istituto del CNR Tel: +39 50 593246 Via S. Maria, 36 Fax: +39 50 904052 I-56126 PISA Telex: 500371 CNUCE I Italy Url: http://www.nis.garr.it/nis/staff/bonito.html ---------- ---------- From jef at mail.interpac.be Wed Dec 20 17:57:51 1995 From: jef at mail.interpac.be (Jean-Francois Stenuit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:57:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: IP addresses question Message-ID: Hello, We are currently fixing our routing policy for clients using dialup-ISDN connections and are facing some problems. Theorically (Cisco point of vue), avery network should have a different number. That means we need 3 network ranges (our network, ISDN network and client network). As IP address space is becoming quite scarce these days, we don't want to use registered addresses for the ISDN network (it doesn't have to be visible from the Internet). We have three solutions : - use RFC1597 addresses, but there is no reverse DNS for such addresses (problem when doing a traceroute) - use some kind of unnumbered scheme, but it's difficult to manage on Cisco routers with multiple dial-in BRI. - use a registered addresses anyway ... Any advice, experience ? -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Jean-Francois "Jef" Stenuit | Interpac Belgium NV/SA | // Amiga \ \Internet administrator | 350/358 Avenue Louise Box 11 | \\// fanatic / /Phone (32)(2) 646-6000 | B-1050 Brussels | \/ \ \Fax (32)(2) 640-3638 | Belgium | & SparcStation / /Email stenuit at interpac.be | | addict ... \ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From patrick.van.eijk at pi.net Thu Dec 21 19:24:57 1995 From: patrick.van.eijk at pi.net (Patrick M. van Eijk) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 10:24:57 PST Subject: IP addresses question Message-ID: Dear Jean-Francois, As the largest ISDN dial-in provider for internet-customers in the Netherlands we have established a network (270 B-channels) with IP address pools wich are dynamically assigned to the BRI/PRI ports. We'll be happy to advice you (as a local-registry for ripe we also see the need for maintaining the current IP space !). Lets have a contact early next year (due to hollidays). Greetings Patrick M. van Eijk General Manager Network Operations & Services Planet Internet Holding B.V. E-mail : pvaneijk at pi.net --- On Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:57:51 +0100 (MET) Jean-Francois Stenuit wrote: >Received: from ncc.ripe.net (ncc.ripe.net [193.0.0.129]) by mailhost.pi.net (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id TAA01558; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:21:36 +0100 >Received: by ncc.ripe.net > id AA08214 (5.65a/NCC-2.30); Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:00:08 +0100 >Received: from donald.interpac.be by ncc.ripe.net with SMTP > id AA08206 (5.65a/NCC-2.30); Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:00:03 +0100 >Received: from donald (jef at localhost [127.0.0.1]) by donald.interpac.be (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA27224 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:57:53 +0100 (MET) >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:57:51 +0100 (MET) >From: Jean-Francois Stenuit >X-Sender: jef at donald >To: local-ir at ripe.net >Subject: IP addresses question >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Length: 1337 > >Hello, > >We are currently fixing our routing policy for clients using dialup-ISDN >connections and are facing some problems. > >Theorically (Cisco point of vue), avery network should have a different >number. That means we need 3 network ranges (our network, ISDN network >and client network). > >As IP address space is becoming quite scarce these days, we don't want to >use registered addresses for the ISDN network (it doesn't have to be >visible from the Internet). > >We have three solutions : >- use RFC1597 addresses, but there is no reverse DNS for such addresses > (problem when doing a traceroute) >- use some kind of unnumbered scheme, but it's difficult to manage on > Cisco routers with multiple dial-in BRI. >- use a registered addresses anyway ... > >Any advice, experience ? > >-- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >/Jean-Francois "Jef" Stenuit | Interpac Belgium NV/SA | // Amiga \ >\Internet administrator | 350/358 Avenue Louise Box 11 | \\// fanatic / >/Phone (32)(2) 646-6000 | B-1050 Brussels | \/ \ >\Fax (32)(2) 640-3638 | Belgium | & SparcStation / >/Email stenuit at interpac.be | | addict ... \ ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: Patrick M. van Eijk E-mail: pvaneijk at pi.net Date: 21-12-95 Time: 10:24:57 ------------------------------------- From root at perftech.si Thu Dec 21 10:48:08 1995 From: root at perftech.si (root) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:48:08 +0100 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <9512210948.AA15376@ncc.ripe.net> subscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Perftech d.o.o., Bled i.a. Root (Uros Rezar) Tel: +386 (0)64 741-561 Fax: +386 (0)64 741-024 e-Mail: root at perftech.si ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at Thu Dec 21 19:04:19 1995 From: MGutberlet at server.net4you.co.at (Max Gutberlet) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:04:19 -0500 Subject: Final: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry Message-ID: <199512211204.AA01469@server.net4you.co.at> Ok, I don't want this thread to become a neverending story, therefore a final short asumption from the previous days: 1. Would RIPE please write down the recomendations from Daniel Karenberg including open budget, some kind of democracy and fair pricing and make it a formal RIPE recomendation ? 2. The price everybody is willing to pay for a Name-Server Entry seems to be about US$ 100 setup-fee and US$ 50 a year. TLDs should keep this in mind when setting up their pricing. 3. There is and should be NO general price-regulation for TLDs. Thanks for your participation and help. Regards Max Gutberlet P.S.: Daniel Karrenberg asked to remove this task from the local-ir list. I dont know of any other list applicable for such discussions, therefore I'm willing to setup one myself. Please mail your answers directly to me. -- ~\\|//~ -(o o)- +--------------------oOOOo--(_)--oOOOo---------------------+ | _ _ _ | | _ __ ___| |_| || | _ _ ___ _ _ | | | '_ \ / _ \ __| || |_| | | |/ _ \| | | | | | | | | | __/ |_|__ _| |_| | (_) | |_| | | | |_| |_|\___|\__| |_| \__, |\___/ \__,_| | | |___/ | | http://www.net4you.co.at/ | +----------------------------------------------------------+ | Max Gutberlet Address: NET4YOU | | NetMaster Net4You Ringmauergasse 8| | Tel.: +43-4242-257367 A-9500 Villach | | Fax.: +43-4242-257368 Carinthia | | email: M.Gutberlet at net4you.co.a Austria | +----------------------------------------------------------+ From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu Dec 21 13:28:56 1995 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:28:56 +0100 Subject: Final: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:04:19 EST. <199512211204.AA01469@server.net4you.co.at> References: <199512211204.AA01469@server.net4you.co.at> Message-ID: <9512211228.AA18291@ncc.ripe.net> > Max Gutberlet writes: > P.S.: Daniel Karrenberg asked to remove this task from the local-ir list. I > dont know of any other list applicable for such discussions, therefore I'm > willing to setup one myself. Please mail your answers directly to me. Misunderstanding: I asked to remove the particular discussion about DE NIC as it was repetitive and inconclusive. Personally I think the general issue is most appropriate for this WG. From Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net Thu Dec 21 14:54:49 1995 From: Daniel.Karrenberg at ripe.net (Daniel Karrenberg) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:54:49 +0100 Subject: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:05:17 +0700. <199512201605.RAA02471@cuori.nis.garr.it> References: <199512201605.RAA02471@cuori.nis.garr.it> Message-ID: <9512211354.AA19853@ncc.ripe.net> > Antonio_Blasco Bonito writes: > > 2- RIPE-NCC staff spends many hours on any possible communication mean > (phone, fax, e-mail, meetings, training courses, etc) to train > new providers (new registries). Yes we do that. The local registries (providers) are our customers. What we do *not* do is spend time talking to end-users. That's the providers' job. Otherwise some providers would cross subsidise customer support of others. This is bad. Daniel From woeber at cc.univie.ac.at Thu Dec 21 14:58:29 1995 From: woeber at cc.univie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:58:29 MET Subject: IP addresses question Message-ID: <0099B33D.4087A5DA.1@cc.univie.ac.at> Hi Patrick! >We'll be happy to advice you (as a local-registry for ripe we also see the need for >maintaining the current IP space !). I think that's a great offer! But I'd expect that your approach would be valuable input for a broader audience. At least I'd certainly be very interested to learn about the details and the restrictions - if these exist. I'd like to ask you (and propse to the Local-IR group) to either summarize to the list and/or to give a summary presentation at the Local-IR WG meeting in January. Comments? Thanks, Wilfried. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilfried Woeber : e-mail: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Computer Center - ACOnet : Vienna University : Tel: +43 1 4065822 355 Universitaetsstrasse 7 : Fax: +43 1 4065822 170 A-1010 Vienna, Austria, Europe : NIC: WW144 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bonito at nis.garr.it Thu Dec 21 15:08:52 1995 From: bonito at nis.garr.it (Antonio_Blasco Bonito) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 15:08:52 MET Subject: Final: Question Regarding Behaviour Of German Top Level Registry In-Reply-To: <9512211228.AA18291@ncc.ripe.net>; from "Daniel Karrenberg" at Dec 21, 95 1:28 pm Message-ID: <199512211408.PAA03273@cuori.nis.garr.it> > > > Max Gutberlet writes: > > P.S.: Daniel Karrenberg asked to remove this task from the local-ir list. I > > dont know of any other list applicable for such discussions, therefore I'm > > willing to setup one myself. Please mail your answers directly to me. > > Misunderstanding: I asked to remove the particular discussion about DE NIC > as it was repetitive and inconclusive. Personally I think the general issue > is most appropriate for this WG. OK, but you are assuming that in addition to Providers (Local-IRs) this list includes also the European TLD administrators. This may not be the case... ---------- ---------- Antonio_Blasco Bonito E-Mail: bonito at nis.garr.it GARR - Network Information Service c=it;a=garr;p=garr;o=nis;s=bonito c/o CNUCE - Istituto del CNR Tel: +39 50 593246 Via S. Maria, 36 Fax: +39 50 904052 I-56126 PISA Telex: 500371 CNUCE I Italy Url: http://www.nis.garr.it/nis/staff/bonito.html ---------- ---------- From John.Murray at pla.net.uk Thu Dec 21 16:58:41 1995 From: John.Murray at pla.net.uk (John Murray) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:58:41 +0000 Subject: IP addresses question Message-ID: > As IP address space is becoming quite scarce these days, we don't want to > use registered addresses for the ISDN network (it doesn't have to be > visible from the Internet). > > We have three solutions : > - use RFC1597 addresses, but there is no reverse DNS for such addresses > (problem when doing a traceroute) > - use some kind of unnumbered scheme, but it's difficult to manage on > Cisco routers with multiple dial-in BRI. > - use a registered addresses anyway ... > > Any advice, experience ? We use dynamic unnumbered links with a router from Securicor 3net (are you stuck with Cisco?) and it works *very* well. Cheers John From hostmaster at xlink.net Fri Dec 22 00:05:40 1995 From: hostmaster at xlink.net (Hostmaster NTG/Xlink) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:05:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: Q: Delegation of CIDR less than /24 Message-ID: <"xlink100.x.697:21.11.95.23.06.25"@xlink.net> Dear colleagues, there was a paper on this list, how to delegate /28-networks .. But I could not find it im my archive nor the ripe-web-server :-( :-( Would someone please send me the URL? Thanx and session greetings, Wilhelm de.xlink Hostmaster -- Wilhelm Buehler email: hostmaster at xlink.net NTG Netzwerk und Telematic GmbH / fax: +49 721 9652 210 Geschaeftsbereich Xlink \/ phone: +49 721 9652 211 Vincenz-Priessnitz-Str. 3 /\ link http://www.xlink.net/~wb/ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ Freiheit verbindet. Weltweit. From zsako at banknet.net Fri Dec 22 08:58:50 1995 From: zsako at banknet.net (Janos Zsako) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 95 08:58:50 +0100 Subject: Q: Delegation of CIDR less than /24 Message-ID: <9512220758.AA14723@banknet.banknet.net> > From owner-local-ir at ripe.net Fri Dec 22 00:59:26 1995 > From: hostmaster at xlink.net (Hostmaster NTG/Xlink) > Sender: wb at xlink.net Dear Wilhelm, > there was a paper on this list, how to delegate /28-networks .. > > But I could not find it im my archive nor the ripe-web-server :-( :-( > > Would someone please send me the URL? I think what you are looking for is: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/internet-drafts/draft-degroot-classless-inaddr-00.txt Best regards and Seasons Greetings, Janos Janos Zsako BankNet Kft. Budapest, Hungary From liman at sunet.se Fri Dec 22 11:03:30 1995 From: liman at sunet.se (Lars-Johan Liman) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:03:30 +0100 Subject: Q: Delegation of CIDR less than /24 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 1995 00:05:40 +0100." <"xlink100.x.697:21.11.95.23.06.25"@xlink.net> Message-ID: <199512221003.LAA00267@fliptop.pilsnet.sunet.se> > Dear colleagues, > there was a paper on this list, how to delegate /28-networks .. > But I could not find it im my archive nor the ripe-web-server :-( :-( > Would someone please send me the URL? If your talking about DNS delegation for reverse lookups (in-addr.arpa), then I guess you're looking for ftp://ftp.nordu.net/internet-drafts/draft-degroot-classless-inaddr-00.txt Best regards, and Merry Christmas /Liman #------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Lars-Johan Liman ! Internet: liman at sunet.se # Ebone/NORDUnet/SUNET Operations Centre ! 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