From ripe.ipv6-wg at ml.karotte.org Wed Oct 1 11:56:00 2014 From: ripe.ipv6-wg at ml.karotte.org (Sebastian Wiesinger) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 11:56:00 +0200 Subject: [ipv6-wg] Replacing the IPv6 Working Group chairs In-Reply-To: <20140923125533.GC14459@Space.Net> References: <2B8CC34E-94BE-4CCC-AF1D-FFA5E78177A4@marcoh.net> <20140923125533.GC14459@Space.Net> Message-ID: <20141001095600.GA8839@danton.fire-world.de> * Gert Doering [2014-09-23 14:57]: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 01:40:32PM +0200, Marco Hogewoning wrote: > > - Jen Linkova > > - Benedikt Stokebrand > > - Dave Wilson > [..] > > - The IPv6 Working Group, via this mailing list, to affirm the appointment of Jen, Dave and Benedikt as the new chairs of the IPv6 Working Group > > Support. +1 -- GPG Key: 0x93A0B9CE (F4F6 B1A3 866B 26E9 450A 9D82 58A2 D94A 93A0 B9CE) 'Are you Death?' ... IT'S THE SCYTHE, ISN'T IT? PEOPLE ALWAYS NOTICE THE SCYTHE. -- Terry Pratchett, The Fifth Elephant -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 547 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From alex.semenyaka at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 16:34:26 2014 From: alex.semenyaka at gmail.com (Alex Semenyaka) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 18:34:26 +0400 Subject: [ipv6-wg] Replacing the IPv6 Working Group chairs In-Reply-To: <20141001095600.GA8839@danton.fire-world.de> References: <2B8CC34E-94BE-4CCC-AF1D-FFA5E78177A4@marcoh.net> <20140923125533.GC14459@Space.Net> <20141001095600.GA8839@danton.fire-world.de> Message-ID: +1 :) 2014-10-01 13:56 GMT+04:00 Sebastian Wiesinger : > * Gert Doering [2014-09-23 14:57]: > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 01:40:32PM +0200, Marco Hogewoning wrote: > > > - Jen Linkova > > > - Benedikt Stokebrand > > > - Dave Wilson > > [..] > > > - The IPv6 Working Group, via this mailing list, to affirm the > appointment of Jen, Dave and Benedikt as the new chairs of the IPv6 Working > Group > > > > Support. > > +1 > > -- > GPG Key: 0x93A0B9CE (F4F6 B1A3 866B 26E9 450A 9D82 58A2 D94A 93A0 B9CE) > 'Are you Death?' ... IT'S THE SCYTHE, ISN'T IT? PEOPLE ALWAYS NOTICE THE > SCYTHE. > -- Terry Pratchett, The Fifth Elephant > -- -- Alex Semenyaka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcoh at marcoh.net Thu Oct 2 09:06:33 2014 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (MarcoH) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 09:06:33 +0200 Subject: [ipv6-wg] RIPE69 draft agenda Message-ID: Hello, Our initial draft agenda for the London meeting is online. Our session will be on Thursday 09 November, 11:00. We hope to see you all there and as usual remote participation will be available for those who can't make it to London. We welcome suggestions for any additional topics or talks. Thursday, 9 November 09:00 ? 10:30 A. Welcome and Administrativa B. IPv6 Extension Headers Jen Linkova, Google C. Nathalie Trenaman, RIPE NCC IPv6 Program Manager D. Transfer of IPv6 Chair Duties E. Establishing a Procedure to Elect Chairs X. Closing See you in London, MarcoH -- Sent from mobile, sorry for the typos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcoh at marcoh.net Thu Oct 2 09:47:14 2014 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (MarcoH) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 09:47:14 +0200 Subject: [ipv6-wg] RIPE69 draft agenda In-Reply-To: <67832B1175062E48926BF3CB27C49B2411C51386@xmb-aln-x12.cisco.com> References: <67832B1175062E48926BF3CB27C49B2411C51386@xmb-aln-x12.cisco.com> Message-ID: <84721C6C-CBC0-4F5F-AB6D-B3A23CA6D598@marcoh.net> Goed point, that is why we have drafts :) Should be 6 :) I'll ask my colleagues to change the website if needed. We are on Thursday folk, that is the important bit. But of course you don't want to mis out on any of the other great RIPE 69 days either. Apologies, MarcoH -- Sent from mobile, sorry for the typos > On 2 okt. 2014, at 09:41, "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" wrote: > > 9 November 2014 is a Sunday? > > Something went wrong in agenda browsing I guess?. J > > G/ > > From: ipv6-wg-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:ipv6-wg-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of MarcoH > Sent: 02 October 2014 09:07 > To: ipv6-wg at ripe.net IPv6 > Subject: [ipv6-wg] RIPE69 draft agenda > > Hello, > > Our initial draft agenda for the London meeting is online. > > Our session will be on Thursday 09 November, 11:00. We hope to see you all there and as usual remote participation will be available for those who can't make it to London. > > We welcome suggestions for any additional topics or talks. > Thursday, 9 November 09:00 ? 10:30 > A. Welcome and Administrativa > > B. IPv6 Extension Headers > Jen Linkova, Google > > C. Nathalie Trenaman, RIPE NCC IPv6 Program Manager > > D. Transfer of IPv6 Chair Duties > > E. Establishing a Procedure to Elect Chairs > > X. Closing > > See you in London, > > MarcoH > -- > Sent from mobile, sorry for the typos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.baeza at tvt-datos.es Tue Oct 21 16:33:21 2014 From: d.baeza at tvt-datos.es (Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT)) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:33:21 +0200 Subject: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 & Android & Facebook Message-ID: <54466EB1.1060003@tvt-datos.es> Hi all, I'm writting here since I didnt really know how or where to check whats happening to us. Is any of you experiencing problems loading photos/images from facebook/twitter/instagram/whatever via Android devices with Dual-Stack IPv4/IPv6? Thanks in advance. -- Daniel Baeza From tahar.schaa at cassini.de Tue Oct 21 18:01:30 2014 From: tahar.schaa at cassini.de (Schaa, Tahar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:01:30 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] RIPE69 draft agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <70B2CDEDDC7428448D1596CE69CBC1748E06BC4E@cas003ex003.cassini.local> Hello all, as announced on a past RIPE meeting German government initiated an IPv6 R&D project dealing with: ? an IPv6 profile for components ? an IPv6 migration guide ? IPv6 routing simulation and concepts ? IPv6 and Industry 4.0 ? and some other documents and results to support the rollout and usage of IPv6 in Germany, especially for public sector organizations. I had the technical project lead. Now the results are updated and the main documents are available in English! They are all under Creative Commons license J Short term I got the permission from the German Ministry of interior to offer a short presentation about the latest project results on RIPE69. So my question and request is to get about 10 minutes in the IPv6 WG session to present these results many people could now benefit from. Is that possible and desired? Would make me happy?. See you on in London J Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr??en Tahar Schaa Management Consultant Cassini Consulting GmbH Bennigsen-Platz 1 40474 D?sseldorf T +49 (0) 151 11 44 38 75 F +49 (0) 211 65 85 41 34 mail tahar.schaa at cassini.de visit www.cassini.de Think green - keep it on the screen! Cassini Consulting GmbH | Bennigsen-Platz 1 | 40474 D?sseldorf Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Sven Wiedenh?fer | Michael Schmitz | J?rg Z?ngerling Sitz der Gesellschaft: D?sseldorf | Registergericht D?sseldorf HRB 53235 Guiding ahead - Cassini ist Management- und Technologieberatung Von: ipv6-wg-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:ipv6-wg-bounces at ripe.net] Im Auftrag von MarcoH Gesendet: Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2014 09:07 An: ipv6-wg at ripe.net IPv6 Betreff: [ipv6-wg] RIPE69 draft agenda Hello, Our initial draft agenda for the London meeting is online. Our session will be on Thursday 09 November, 11:00. We hope to see you all there and as usual remote participation will be available for those who can't make it to London. We welcome suggestions for any additional topics or talks. Thursday, 9 November 09:00 ? 10:30 A. Welcome and Administrativa B. IPv6 Extension Headers Jen Linkova, Google C. Nathalie Trenaman, RIPE NCC IPv6 Program Manager D. Transfer of IPv6 Chair Duties E. Establishing a Procedure to Elect Chairs X. Closing See you in London, MarcoH -- Sent from mobile, sorry for the typos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4684 bytes Desc: not available URL: From furry13 at gmail.com Tue Oct 21 18:06:52 2014 From: furry13 at gmail.com (Jen Linkova) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:06:52 +0200 Subject: [ipv6-wg] IPv6 & Android & Facebook In-Reply-To: <54466EB1.1060003@tvt-datos.es> References: <54466EB1.1060003@tvt-datos.es> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Daniel Baeza (Red y Sistemas TVT) wrote: > I'm writting here since I didnt really know how or where to check whats > happening to us. I'd say that it sounds more like a question people ask in ipv6-ops at lists.cluenet.de mailing list, but as we are here, let me try.. > Is any of you experiencing problems loading photos/images from > facebook/twitter/instagram/whatever via Android devices with Dual-Stack > IPv4/IPv6? I don't. Works fine. However I'm afraid it's hard to say anything about your problem w/o more details. Are you talking about dual-stack wifi connection? Have you tried http://www.test-ipv6.com? [shot in the dark] MTU issue? -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From marcoh at marcoh.net Sun Oct 26 12:21:35 2014 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (Marco Hogewoning) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:21:35 +0100 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Collaborative efforts in the BCOP TF have led to the following document, detailing how to troubleshoot IPv6 connectivity. The author(s) have asked us to forward this to the IPv6 Working Group for review, with the intend of publishing this as RIPE Document. To clarify the procedure, any document, when there is consensus within the working group can receive a number and be published as part of the RIPE Document series. As it does not specify any RIPE policy or changes existing policy, we are comfortable in not invoking the formal PDP for this. Please review this document and leave any comments regarding the contents on this list. Also we would like to receive some feedback wether you think this document should be published as a RIPE Document. Please leave your initial comments before Monday 7 November COB, we will carve out some time in the RIPE 69 agenda to talk about this and to decide on the workflow. Regards, Marco Hogewoning co-chair of the IPv6 Working Group -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IPv6_troubleshooting_for_helpdesks-v.01.rtf Type: text/rtf Size: 54515 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marcoh at marcoh.net Sun Oct 26 14:06:48 2014 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (Marco Hogewoning) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:06:48 +0100 Subject: [ipv6-wg] Draft RIPE 69 Agenda (version 2) Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Here is an updated agenda for our upcoming session in London, please note that in the previous process we briefly communicated the wrong time and date. Our session will take place on Thursday, 6 November from 09:00 ? 10:30 GMT(!). Of course as with all sessions, if you are unable to join us in London, webcast and remote participation will be available via http://ripe69.ripe.net. A. Welcome and Administrativa B. IPv6 Extension Headers Jen Linkova, Google This is a follow up to a presentation at an earlier meeting, presenting some new results C. IPv6 experiences - a RIPE Atlas Anchor project perspective Nathalie Trenaman, RIPE NCC In this presentation Nathalie will present on the IPv6 specific network issues Atlas anchors experienced and how this affected the user measurements. D. Progress and results of implementing IPv6 at the German government Tahar Schaa, Cassini Consulting Another follow up in which Tahar will present some of the results of this project and and report on the progress being made E. Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks? Jan Zorz (on behalf of the BCOP TF) We will review the feedback received and discuss how to move forward on publishing this new RIPE Document. D. Transfer of IPv6 Chair Duties Shane and I will formally hand over our duties to the new team: Dave, Jen and Benedikt E. Establishing a Procedure to Elect Chairs There is requirement to document the procedure to re-affirm and replace the working group chairs. This discussion will be led by the new chairs. X. Closing Regards. Marco Hogewoning on behalf of the team: Shane, Jen, Benedikt and Dave From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 14:51:00 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:51:00 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:21:35 +0100, Marco Hogewoning wrote: > > 6. Explanation of Help Desk Codes on {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK "http://test.test-ipv6.om"}}{\fldrslt \ul http://isp.test-ipv6.com}} \ Target of hyperlink is broken. Why impose RTF on the proof-reader instead of markdown or PDF? ATB Niall From marcoh at marcoh.net Sun Oct 26 14:57:25 2014 From: marcoh at marcoh.net (Marco Hogewoning) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:57:25 +0100 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> 6. Explanation of Help Desk Codes on {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK "http://test.test-ipv6.om"}}{\fldrslt \ul http://isp.test-ipv6.com}} \ > > Target of hyperlink is broken. Will get checked/fixed when going to final markup... > Why impose RTF on the proof-reader instead of markdown or PDF? Choosing one evil over the other, preferably it would have been plain text or it a more final version in PDF. The first option would have lost too much of the structure and the second option would have required additional resources which might be considered wasteful given this is a very early draft. Besides that, also not everybody is happy with receiving pdf. Sorry, this is one where it is near impossible to get right for everybody. Hope the format we picked allows for people to review without to much effort. I think most mail readers will he able to make something from RTF without the aid of additional software or plugins. Marco From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 15:15:07 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:15:07 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:21:35 +0100, Marco Hogewoning wrote: > > [1 ] > Dear colleagues, > > Collaborative efforts in the BCOP TF have led to the following document, detailing how to troubleshoot IPv6 connectivity. > > The author(s) have asked us to forward this to the IPv6 Working Group for review, with the intend of publishing this as RIPE Document. Apologies if this is premature comment. In order to avoid misleading diagnostics, some of the test targets need actually to be made available before the document is released. For example: dhcp-179(niall)7: curl -v http://ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu/images-nc/knob_valid_green.png * Adding handle: conn: 0x7f84e4004400 * Adding handle: send: 0 * Adding handle: recv: 0 * Curl_addHandleToPipeline: length: 1 * - Conn 0 (0x7f84e4004400) send_pipe: 1, recv_pipe: 0 * About to connect() to ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu port 80 (#0) * Trying 2001:b30:1::144... * Failed connect to ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu:80; Connection refused * Closing connection 0 curl: (7) Failed connect to ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu:80; Connection refused dhcp-179(niall)8: ping6 -c5 ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2001:770:13f:1:ec12:82f2:cf03:1149 --> 2001:b30:1::144 16 bytes from 2001:b30:1::144, icmp_seq=0 hlim=51 time=72.447 ms 16 bytes from 2001:b30:1::144, icmp_seq=1 hlim=51 time=77.818 ms 16 bytes from 2001:b30:1::144, icmp_seq=2 hlim=51 time=70.829 ms 16 bytes from 2001:b30:1::144, icmp_seq=3 hlim=51 time=70.720 ms 16 bytes from 2001:b30:1::144, icmp_seq=4 hlim=51 time=106.215 ms --- aaaa.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu ping6 statistics --- 5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 70.720/79.606/106.215/13.553 ms dhcp-179(niall)9: ATB Niall From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 15:23:01 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:23:01 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:57:25 +0100, Marco Hogewoning wrote: > > Sorry, this is one where it is near impossible to get right for everybody. Only if you avoid the opportunity to send alternatively formatted attachments. Surely that's not hard? For me, RTF is utterly abominable. I'ld even prefer DOCX! ATB Niall From jfesler at gigo.com Sun Oct 26 16:35:17 2014 From: jfesler at gigo.com (Jason Fesler) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:35:17 -0700 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sunday, October 26, 2014, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > * Failed connect to ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu:80; Connection refused > As soon as I can get near a real computer I'll do a fresh audit and disable/contact broken sites. I'll also put more thought into how to export the data needed to a nagios plugin to catch issues quicker. -- Jason Fesler, email/jabber resume: http://jfesler.com "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 18:52:41 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:52:41 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 08:35:17 -0700, Jason Fesler wrote: > > On Sunday, October 26, 2014, Niall O'Reilly > wrote: > > * Failed connect to ipv6.test-ipv6.ceengine.eu:80; Connection > refused > > As soon as I can get near a real computer I'll do a fresh audit and > disable/contact broken sites. I'll also put more thought into how to > export the data needed to a nagios plugin to catch issues quicker. Great! Thanks for the speedy response, Jason. Thinking a bit more, I have the idea that some more thought is needed about how the script running in the browser interprets failure to retrieve any of the target resources. In the case mentioned, it looks as if application error HTTP 404 is being interpreted as indicating IPv6 network target unreachable. Isn't this a layering misinterpretation? ATB Niall From jfesler at gigo.com Sun Oct 26 19:40:31 2014 From: jfesler at gigo.com (Jason Fesler) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:40:31 -0700 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > In the case > mentioned, it looks as if application error HTTP 404 is being > interpreted as indicating IPv6 network target unreachable. Isn't > this a layering misinterpretation? Yes. But I have limits on what I can do in JavaScript, without invoking browser specific or even operating system specific code, or depending on plugins. I can (as far as I know) only detect success, failure, and timeout. Above all, I want the site to operate purely on simple clean javascript that works on any popular browser, and ideally, even the unpopular javascript-enabled browsers. FWIW: I always check IPv4 as a control measure. I only complain when IPv6 fails but IPv4 worked. This catches the case of apache httpd being down; it catches power down; it doesn't catch more subtle problems. When the control is down, I discount it from the list of failures (grey instead of red; and the ISP test in particular stops counting it). Not perfect; but if you can help me improve on this in a way that keeps my goal of simple javascript, I'm very much interested in your ideas. In some cases, it may be as simple as expertise (since JavaScript is not my "native tongue", so to speak). Thanks for the feedback! And thanks for taking the time to read the document. A lot of people have put a lot of time into that document already. I'm hoping ultimately the community finds the document (and the site) useful. -- Jason Fesler, email/jabber resume: http://jfesler.com "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 21:08:41 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:08:41 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:40:31 -0700, Jason Fesler wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > > In the case > > mentioned, it looks as if application error HTTP 404 is being > > interpreted as indicating IPv6 network target unreachable. Isn't > > this a layering misinterpretation? > > Yes. But I have limits on what I can do in JavaScript, without > invoking browser specific or even operating system specific code, or > depending on plugins. I can (as far as I know) only detect success, > failure, and timeout. Above all, I want the site to operate purely on > simple clean javascript that works on any popular browser, and > ideally, even the unpopular javascript-enabled browsers. I fear that "simple clean javascript that works on any popular browser" may be an unattainable goal. The jQuery library attempts to provide a uniform abstraction layer above the particular behaviour of individual browsers. I've found it useful, but my experience is limited, so I can't say whether it achieves all you'll need. > FWIW: I always check IPv4 as a control measure. I only complain when > IPv6 fails but IPv4 worked. This catches the case of apache httpd > being down; it catches power down; it doesn't catch more subtle > problems. When the control is down, I discount it from the list of > failures (grey instead of red; and the ISP test in particular stops > counting it). > > Not perfect; but if you can help me improve on this in a way that > keeps my goal of simple javascript, I'm very much interested in your > ideas. In some cases, it may be as simple as expertise (since > JavaScript is not my "native tongue", so to speak). We both share that pedigree! 8-) > Thanks for the feedback! And thanks for taking the time to read the > document. A lot of people have put a lot of time into that document > already. I'm hoping ultimately the community finds the document (and > the site) useful. Thanks for revealing more of the picture to me. ATB Niall From niall.oreilly at ucd.ie Sun Oct 26 21:19:50 2014 From: niall.oreilly at ucd.ie (Niall O'Reilly) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:19:50 +0000 Subject: [ipv6-wg] New Document: "IPv6 Troubleshooting for Residential ISP Helpdesks" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:08:41 +0000, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > > I fear that "simple clean javascript that works on any popular > browser" may be an unattainable goal. The jQuery library attempts > to provide a uniform abstraction layer above the particular > behaviour of individual browsers. I've found it useful, but my > experience is limited, so I can't say whether it achieves all you'll > need. ... including whether it fits your design constraints. ATB Niall