From shane at time-travellers.org Wed Apr 1 10:04:20 2009 From: shane at time-travellers.org (Shane Kerr) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:04:20 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Turning off lameness checks for reverse In-Reply-To: References: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> <5c494b510903310532k5b5fb21dt75ec8a0074f8414@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49D32004.4040208@time-travellers.org> Joe, Joe Abley wrote: > Encouraging peoople to fix unresponsive nameservers seems like a more > obviously good idea than encouraging people to fix measurably-lame > delegations. This is true. The current document (RIPE 400) does not make any distinction between timeouts and other responses. That probably be a nice improvement (and something that can be nicely measured to determine the scope of the lameness problem). > The other consideration that has come up in other regions (and which I > have also not seen a study supporting) is that lame delegations caused > increased traffic for the servers that publish them, and that the > increased traffic presents an operational problem. Which servers are supposed to be seeing increased traffic? The parent servers should have exactly the same number of queries. The non-lame servers in the NS-set will of course receive an increased number of queries - but this is the same amount as if you removed the lame servers from the set. The people who will see more traffic are people running recursive resolvers, due to failures. The RIPE document initiating the lame delegation mails says 11-13% of name servers are lame. We have no idea what the actual effect is of course, since this has not been measured. It could be more (if these lame servers are in heavily-queried zones), or it could be less (if these lame servers are in lightly-queried zones). Basically, we have no data at all. > Philosophically, it makes sense to me for the zone operator (the NCC) to > care about the accuracy of the data published in the zone. It's not > clear to me that doing so has any operational benefit to the NCC, however. > > What I hear Shane saying is that since he sees no operational benefit in > the checks, as the operator of the number resource, he ought to have the > option of opting out of them. I note that opting out of lame delegation > checks is possible at ARIN (since I happened to get some robot lame > delegation checker mail from them the other day, and the mail mentioned > it). My basic position is that DNS works as good as it does because it allows an operator to spend as much time and money to provide DNS service as fast and reliable as it needs to be for their needs. The benefits go to the operator, and they pay the costs. If all the hosts in my domain run on a server at home at the end of a flaky DSL connection, I don't need multiple servers running from diverse autonomous systems. However, if I am running an online auctioning site where downtime means lawsuits then I *can* build an anycast cloud running with full redundancy in hundreds of sites around the world. I realize that this only works if all parent domains are also fast and reliable. But this is normally only the parent and a TLD, and these organizations tend to take DNS very, very seriously. What does this mean for lameness checking? If lameness causes problems for an operator, they will fix it. If it does not, they don't care (and that is OKAY). I am fully in favor of parent zones trying to help people keep their delegations working. The RIPE NCC already provides tools to check zone quality, and also checks the quality of delegations when you add or change reverse DNS configuration. Without actual evidence that there is a real problem that harms the user experience, anything else seems pointless. -- Shane From pk at DENIC.DE Wed Apr 1 12:50:04 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:50:04 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Turning off lameness checks for reverse In-Reply-To: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> References: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: <20090401105004.GG23852@unknown.office.denic.de> Shane, > Is there any support for disabling lameness checks for reverse DNS? given that these warnings have just started being sent out, I believe such a drastic action is premature. As a matter of history, RIPE-400 was published in January 2007. The NCC had planned to start sending notifications mid 2008, but that was postponed partly due to "the" bug. In October 2008, a random sample was targeted with earlier attempts of the notifications, after which at the end of February this year, the first full run was executed. > 1. It seems that they cause some annoyance to administrators. I guess Wilfried has already kindly volunteered in public to collect some feedback to be able to quantify and qualify "seems" and "annoyance". Of course, the messages shouldn't be annoying, but it might just be that text can be improved. > 2. As far as I know there has never been a study showing improvement for > DNS users based on removing lameness in reverse DNS (or in any DNS). RFC 4697 is but one source of experiences with 3rd party annoyances caused by lame delegations. > These two things suggest to me that the pro-active lameness checks > should be disabled, at least until it is shown that lameness actually > causes problems. I haven't seen reports of a desastrous failure. In the spirit of constructive discussion, could we give the NCC a chance to report experiences, collect feedback and improve the service when and where necessary? It's only been about four weeks. Regards, Peter From fweimer at bfk.de Wed Apr 1 13:16:23 2009 From: fweimer at bfk.de (Florian Weimer) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:16:23 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Turning off lameness checks for reverse In-Reply-To: <49D32004.4040208@time-travellers.org> (Shane Kerr's message of "Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:04:20 +0200") References: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> <5c494b510903310532k5b5fb21dt75ec8a0074f8414@mail.gmail.com> <49D32004.4040208@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: <82k5648vzs.fsf@mid.bfk.de> * Shane Kerr: > Which servers are supposed to be seeing increased traffic? The parent > servers should have exactly the same number of queries. Some recursors will consult the parent again, before the TTL expires, to check if the delegation has changed. This seems to happen when a referral returns only unreachable name servers. (When using DNSSEC, this is also the only way to recover from a spoofed referral.) I'm torn about the current lameness notifications. Even in the current form, they helped us to catch a rather embarrassing error. But I think the notifications should be based on current data, and the they should contain more information (timestamps, types of probes and responses). -- Florian Weimer BFK edv-consulting GmbH http://www.bfk.de/ Kriegsstra?e 100 tel: +49-721-96201-1 D-76133 Karlsruhe fax: +49-721-96201-99 From pk at DENIC.DE Wed Apr 8 13:58:25 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:58:25 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Call for Agenda Items for the DNS WG meeting(s) at RIPE58 Message-ID: <20090408115825.GC2834@unknown.office.denic.de> Dear DNS WG, it is a bit less than four weeks until the RIPE 58 meeting in Amsterdam and your WG chairs would like to collect proposals for contributions to the agenda. According to the most recent meeting plan we will meet Wed, 2009-05-06, 14:00-15:30 CEDT (//EIX) Thu, 2009-05-07, 09:00-10:30 CEDT (//Address Policy) (See also ) Anyone who would like to suggest a presentation or would like to see a particular topic covered during the meeting is encouraged to submit ideas to . Also, please keep in mind that there are several DNS related events scheduled for the RIPE meeting week, starting with a CENTR Technical Meeting (CENTR members only) on Sunday, the DNS WG on Wednesday and Thursday and the OARC Workshop on on Saturday, 9 May. Even though we expect different audiences, the organizers have agreed to coordinate on presentations to avoid undue overlap. To allow for this coordination and feedback to presenters, we'd appreciate suggestions to be sent prior to Friday next week, April 17. For new subscribers (and for everybody else as a refresh), the RIPE DNS WG homepage is at . Best regards, Peter [for the co-chairs] From pk at DENIC.DE Tue Apr 14 11:59:56 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:59:56 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Call for Agenda Items for the DNS WG meeting(s) at RIPE58 In-Reply-To: <20090408115825.GC2834@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <20090408115825.GC2834@unknown.office.denic.de> Message-ID: <20090414095956.GC28795@x27.adm.denic.de> Dear DNS WG, > it is a bit less than four weeks until the RIPE 58 meeting in Amsterdam and > your WG chairs would like to collect proposals for contributions to the agenda. > Anyone who would like to suggest a presentation or would like to see a > particular topic covered during the meeting is encouraged to submit ideas > to . it is the privilege of the chair(s) to be confused on behalf of the WG. The address is , of course -- and please continue submitting ideas. We're looking for volunteers to give the "IETF update". -Peter From pk at DENIC.DE Mon Apr 27 10:53:20 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:53:20 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Draft DNS WG Meeting Agenda for RIPE 58 Message-ID: <20090427085320.GB11204@x27.adm.denic.de> Dear WG, please find below the draft agenda for next week's two sessions of the DNS working group. Some assignments are preliminary and scheduling is still subject to change. Comments/requests to , please. Regards, Peter -------------- next part -------------- ============================================================================= DRAFT AGENDA for DNS-WG at RIPE58 ============================================================================= 2009-05-06 (WED) 1400-1530 // EIX ============================================================================= 0) Agenda Bashing and Administrivia [ 5 min] 1) Action Item Walk through [15 min] 2) Reports [45 min] 2.1) IETF report [12 min] Presenter: TBD IETF 73, Minneapolis, Nov 2008 IETF 74, San Francisco, Mar 2009 2.2) ICANN/IANA report [18 min] Presenter: Rick Lamb/Kim Davies, ICANN IANA ITAR [Kim/Rick] New developments re: Signing the Root [Rick] 2.3) Report from the Trust Anchor TF [ 5 min] Presenter: TBD 2.4) Global DNS SSR [10 min] Presenter: TBD 3) Update from the RIPE NCC [15 min] Presenter: Anand Buddhev 4) DNSSEC Update for CZ [10 min] Presenter: Ondrej Sury ============================================================================= 2009-05-07 (THU) 0900-1030 // Address Policy ============================================================================= 5) NCC Reverse Tree Lame Delegation Reports [10 min] Presenter: Anand Buddhev 6) OpenDNSSEC Presenter: Patrik Wallstr?m (15+10) [25 min] 7) Autotrust [10 min] Presenter: TBD 8) Survey of Predelegation Checks [15 min] Presenter: Joao Damas 9) DNS Root Zone Scaling [20 min] Presenter: Johan Ihren Y) Plenary followup discussion [10 min] PMTU & DNSSEC TAR options Z) A.O.B. [ 0 min] ============================================================================= From denis at ripe.net Mon Apr 27 14:51:11 2009 From: denis at ripe.net (Denis Walker) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:51:11 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Deprecation of "rev-srv:" attribute Message-ID: <49F5AA3F.8090001@ripe.net> [Apologies for duplicate emails] Dear Colleagues, The RIPE NCC will begin implementing the deprecation of the "rev-srv:" attribute. This was discussed on the DNS WG mailing list and at the RIPE 54 Meeting in Tallinn, Estonia, during the Database Working Group session. More details are available at: http://www.ripe.net/ripe/maillists/archives/dns-wg/2007/msg00090.html The plan suggested on the mailing list will be used and there are three stages: - Stage 1: Announcement - Stage 2: Syntax change - Stage 3: Clean-up The details of each stage are outlined below. Stage 1: Announcement ---------------------- The announcement will let users know that the process is starting. Over the next month you will need to check any scripts that auto-generate INET(6)NUM objects. Make sure that no "rev-srv:" attributes are included in the generated objects. Stage 2: Syntax change ---------------------- This stage will begin on May 27 2009, when the RIPE NCC will remove the "rev-srv:" attribute from the RIPE RPSL syntax for INET(6)NUM objects. Any new objects created after this date must not have this attribute included. If any objects that include this attribute are modified, then the "rev-srv:" attributes must be removed. If you wish to keep the information for documentation purposes, change the"rev-srv:" attributes into "remarks:" attributes. The "rev-srv:" attribute will also be removed from the list of inverse query options. Stage 3: Clean-up ------------------ The final stage will begin before the RIPE 59 Meeting, which takes place from 5-9 October, 2009. The clean-up will remove any remaining "rev-srv:" attributes from these objects. They will be converted into "remarks:" attributes. If you have any questions about this, please contact . Regards, Denis Walker Business Analyst RIPE NCC From Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at Mon Apr 27 15:01:54 2009 From: Woeber at CC.UniVie.ac.at (Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:01:54 +0000 Subject: [dns-wg] Re: [db-wg] Deprecation of "rev-srv:" attribute In-Reply-To: <49F5AA3F.8090001@ripe.net> References: <49F5AA3F.8090001@ripe.net> Message-ID: <49F5ACC2.4070202@CC.UniVie.ac.at> Thanks Denis, for the description of actions and schedule! Denis Walker wrote: [...] > Stage 3: Clean-up > ------------------ > > The final stage will begin before the RIPE 59 Meeting, which takes place > from 5-9 October, 2009. The clean-up will remove any remaining > "rev-srv:" attributes from these objects. They will be converted into > "remarks:" attributes. Given the Stage 2 `If you wish to keep the information for documentation purposes, change the "rev-srv:" attributes into "remarks:" attributes.? I'd like to suggest to NOT convert - the most probably stale data - to "remarks:" attributes, but rather to remove them altogether. > If you have any questions about this, please contact . > > > Regards, > > Denis Walker > > Business Analyst > RIPE NCC Best regards, Wilfried. From Joao_Damas at isc.org Tue Apr 28 14:48:47 2009 From: Joao_Damas at isc.org (Joao Damas) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:48:47 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Re: [db-wg] Deprecation of "rev-srv:" attribute In-Reply-To: <49F5ACC2.4070202@CC.UniVie.ac.at> References: <49F5AA3F.8090001@ripe.net> <49F5ACC2.4070202@CC.UniVie.ac.at> Message-ID: <290504C3-8065-4939-8415-8F983A457BDB@isc.org> I agree with Wilfried. If they are going away, let them go away. The RIPE NCC delegation checker hasn't looked at rev-srv for a while and without that 99.99% of that info will be outdated, or with luck, a duplication of the other attribute. Joao On 27 Apr 2009, at 15:01, Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet wrote: > Thanks Denis, > > for the description of actions and schedule! > > Denis Walker wrote: > > [...] >> Stage 3: Clean-up >> ------------------ >> >> The final stage will begin before the RIPE 59 Meeting, which takes >> place >> from 5-9 October, 2009. The clean-up will remove any remaining >> "rev-srv:" attributes from these objects. They will be converted into >> "remarks:" attributes. > > Given the Stage 2 `If you wish to keep the information for > documentation > purposes, change the "rev-srv:" attributes into "remarks:" > attributes.? > > I'd like to suggest to NOT convert - the most probably stale data - to > "remarks:" attributes, but rather to remove them altogether. > >> If you have any questions about this, please contact > >. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Denis Walker >> >> Business Analyst >> RIPE NCC > > Best regards, > Wilfried. > From uhlar at fantomas.sk Wed Apr 29 17:08:28 2009 From: uhlar at fantomas.sk (Matus UHLAR - fantomas) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:08:28 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Turning off lameness checks for reverse In-Reply-To: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> References: <49CE729E.2080408@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: <20090429150828.GA25513@fantomas.sk> On 28.03.09 19:55, Shane Kerr wrote: > Is there any support for disabling lameness checks for reverse DNS? > > 1. It seems that they cause some annoyance to administrators. > > 2. As far as I know there has never been a study showing improvement for > DNS users based on removing lameness in reverse DNS (or in any DNS). > > These two things suggest to me that the pro-active lameness checks > should be disabled, at least until it is shown that lameness actually > causes problems. It would be satisfying for me if those would go to the e-mail: addresses, since they seem to go to changed: addresses. In our company, different people care about DNS and RIPE, the RIPE contacts are making changes according to our requests, but notices are going to them, no to us.... -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar at fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From jim at rfc1035.com Wed Apr 29 19:01:58 2009 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:01:58 +0100 Subject: [dns-wg] RIPE 56 WG minutes Message-ID: Apologies for the delay in circulating the minutes. Here are the minutes from RIPE56: the Berlin meeting. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ripe56minutes Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10697 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- From jim at rfc1035.com Wed Apr 29 19:36:32 2009 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:36:32 +0100 Subject: [dns-wg] RIPE 57 minutes Message-ID: <73576AEF-27D8-4D1E-B76F-CC74DC8D316D@rfc1035.com> Here are the minutes from the WG sessions in Dubai. As before, apologies for the delay in circulating these. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ripe57minutes-dns.txt URL: From pk at DENIC.DE Wed Apr 29 20:08:53 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:08:53 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Updates to DNS WG action item list Message-ID: <20090429180853.GF56415@unknown.office.denic.de> Dear DNS WG, here are some updates to our action item list maintained at ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 48.1 Collect experiences with lameness problems due to vanished customers or AXFR sources See slide 7 of The discussion during RIPE 57 revealed: The survey amongst CENTR members (mostly European ccTLDs) showed that they had not seen a noticable number of requests to alter or remove DNS delegations by third parties (i.e., other than the registrar or registrant) and in general their policies would not allow them to follow such request. Very few would be able to act upon lame delegations, independent of who raised the issue. For the reverse mapping, similar problems had not been reported. During previous discussion after the action item was initially assigned, the general problem was acknowledged but with little evidence of being re-occuring or pressing. No operators of DNS name servers had come forward to suggest any operational urgency. This action item is now DONE. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 49.2 Document on DNS Server Migration The working group has taken several attempts to finish the document, including defining the target audience, scope and level of detail. While discussions in both Berlin and Dubai had demonstrated some level of interest, the available momentum could not drive the draft towards a WG consensus. The conclusion in Dubai (RIPE 57) was to drop this project with thanks to all contributors. An archived version is available at and may serve as a starting point for a new initiative. This action item is now DONE. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 57.1 RIPE NCC (Anand) to consider pros and cons of submitting the trust anchors of zones signed by the RIPE NCC into ISC DLV This action item is NEW. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 57.2 Peter Koch will document the WGs advice that the old forward DNS zone domain objects in the RIPE DB should be deleted and liaise with the DB WG This was acted upon during the database WG meeting in Dubai. The DB WG agreed to take over, so this will continue as DB WG item 57.1. This action item is DONE. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Open action items are [51.4] and [57.1]. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -Peter From pk at DENIC.DE Thu Apr 30 10:35:05 2009 From: pk at DENIC.DE (Peter Koch) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:35:05 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Updated Draft DNS WG Agenda for RIPE 58 Message-ID: <20090430083505.GC57287@unknown.office.denic.de> Dear WG, please find below an updated draft agenda for the DNS WG sessions at the upcoming RIPE meeting. As you can see, both session are pretty packed. Alas, there's no more space available, but individual slot assignments might be shifted around. All presenters are encouraged to submit their slideware to the on-site meeting repository (ROSIE) prior to the meeting. See you in Amsterdam! -Peter -------------- next part -------------- ============================================================================= 2nd DRAFT AGENDA for DNS-WG at RIPE58 ============================================================================= 2009-05-06 (WED) 1400-1530 // EIX ============================================================================= 0) Agenda Bashing and Administrivia [ 5 min] Minutes of RIPE 56 DNS WG meeting Minutes of RIPE 57 DNS WG meeting 1) Action Item Walk through [ 5 min] 49.2 RIPE203bis 57.1 DLV for NCC maintained TAs [covered below under (3) "Update from the NCC"] 2) Reports [55 min] 2.1) IETF report [12 min] Presenter: TBD IETF 73, Minneapolis, Nov 2008 IETF 74, San Francisco, Mar 2009 2.2) ICANN/IANA report [18 min] Presenter: Rick Lamb/Kim Davies, ICANN IANA ITAR [Kim/Rick] New developments re: Signing the Root [Rick] 2.3) Report from the Trust Anchor TF [ 5 min] Presenter: Peter/Jim Check IANA-ITAR against requirements, thanks dissolve Task Force 2.4) Global DNS Security, Stability, and Resilience Symposium [10 min] Presenter: John Crain 2.5) BIND10 [10 min] Presenter: Shane Kerr 3) Update from the RIPE NCC [15 min] Presenter: Anand Buddhev 4) DNSSEC Update for CZ [10 min] Presenter: Ondrej Sury ============================================================================= 2009-05-07 (THU) 0900-1030 // Address Policy ============================================================================= 5) NCC Reverse Tree Lame Delegation Reports [10 min] Presenter: Anand Buddhev 6) OpenDNSSEC Presenter: Patrik Wallstr?m (15+10) [25 min] 7) Autotrust, an implementation of RFC 5011 style TA Update [10 min] Presenter: Matthijs Mekking 8) Survey of Predelegation Checks [15 min] Presenter: Joao Damas 9) DNS Root Zone Scaling [20 min] Presenter: Johan Ihren Y) Plenary followup discussion [10 min] PMTU & DNSSEC TAR options Z) A.O.B. [ 0 min] ============================================================================= From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz Thu Apr 30 16:12:06 2009 From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:12:06 -0400 Subject: [dns-wg] Updated Draft DNS WG Agenda for RIPE 58 In-Reply-To: <20090430083505.GC57287@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <20090430083505.GC57287@unknown.office.denic.de> Message-ID: At 10:35 +0200 4/30/09, Peter Koch wrote: >See you in Amsterdam! According to the RIP58 web site, page http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/index.php?home=remote, it says there will be an audio feed but has no further details. Can the chairs find out more information about the audio feed and chats? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 Getting everything you want is easy if you don't want much. From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl Thu Apr 30 17:41:40 2009 From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 17:41:40 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Updated Draft DNS WG Agenda for RIPE 58 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:12:06 -0400. Message-ID: <200904301541.n3UFfe0Z096449@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> According to the RIP58 web site, page http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/index.php?home=remote, it says there will be an audio feed but has no further details. Can the chairs find out more information about the audio feed and chats? >From other occasions I remember that the details will appear on the pages of the actual agenda's of the WG group sessions as soon as the AV systems are set up. Currently it is a holidy (Queen's birthday, a quite dramatic one this time) so I can not check it with RIPE-NCC. jaap From adrian at ripe.net Thu Apr 30 23:06:02 2009 From: adrian at ripe.net (Adrian Bedford) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 23:06:02 +0200 Subject: [dns-wg] Updated Draft DNS WG Agenda for RIPE 58 In-Reply-To: References: <20090430083505.GC57287@unknown.office.denic.de> Message-ID: <49FA12BA.2040500@ripe.net> Hi Edward Links to all of these services will appear from Monday lunchtime onwards. Hope this helps. Adrian Bedford Web Services Team Leader RIPE NCC Edward Lewis wrote: > At 10:35 +0200 4/30/09, Peter Koch wrote: > >> See you in Amsterdam! > > According to the RIP58 web site, page > http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/index.php?home=remote, it says > there will be an audio feed but has no further details. Can the chairs > find out more information about the audio feed and chats? >