[diversity] Proposal for anonymous gender metric question now on RIPE Labs
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denis
ripedenis at yahoo.co.uk
Tue Jun 20 23:43:24 CEST 2017
Hi David On 20/06/2017 21:27, David Hilario wrote: > Hi, > > I see the decision of collecting the Data is already made, so lets move on. As I said I have no problem with the concept of collecting this data. But this data must be collected anonymously and not anonymised after collection. cheers denis > > Earlier on it was hinted at diversity for a Gender, Sexual and > religious point survey, now we are back to solely gender is being > discussed. > > What data will be collected, is it only gender now? > What does "diversity" plan to do with the collected data? > What is the intention of the data collection? > Will the aggregated data per meeting be made public? > > David Hilario > > IP Manager > Larus Cloud Service Limited > > p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784 > f: +852 29888068 > a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR > w: laruscloudservice.net > e: d.hilario at laruscloudservice.net > > > On 20 June 2017 at 13:57, denis <ripedenis at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Hi Shane >> >> >> On 20/06/2017 11:38, Shane Kerr wrote: >> >> Denis, >> >> At 2017-06-20 00:20:22 +0000 >> denis walker <ripedenis at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Sorry for making this personal, but I grew up in a small working >> class town where, had my sexuality been known at that time, people >> would have kicked the s**t out of me. I had an older gay cousin and >> even some people within the family made fun of him. But that was >> nothing compared to what can happen to people in many parts of the >> RIPE region if it is known they have any gender diversity issues. My >> cousin was laughed at by some members of the family. In some places >> in 2017, members of a family will murder relatives to protect the >> 'honour' of their family. >> >> I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone living in an oppressive situation. >> I don't deny that people are tortured, killed, and their families >> harmed for many unjust reasons - including their gender identity. >> >> There seems to be some strange disjoint here between 'collecting >> data' and what this data actually means. As a software developer and >> analyst I also love to play around with data and find out interesting >> things. Especially when the results lead on to some significant >> change or improvement. I did so much of that with the contents of the >> RIPE Database for so many years. But we are not collecting details of >> age and colour preferences for shoes. This is sensitive, personal >> data. If it is leaked or hacked it can cost lives. I am not trying to >> be melodramatic here. This is the reality of the age we are currently >> living in. >> >> I don't think there is an issue. I disagree with your repeated >> assertion that it is especially sensitive and can cost lives. >> >> When I buy an airline ticket I have to say "Dhr." ("sir") or >> "Mevr." ("madam"). When I check into a hotel I have to hand over my >> passport, which has my sex on it. Many driver's licenses have sex on >> them. Swedish national identity number is different depending on >> whether you are a man or a female. >> >> I'm sure others on the list can think of dozens of more examples where >> your gender or sex are non-private. >> >> >> In all of these examples you are referring to your biological gender. This >> is a simple binary option, male/female. It is set at birth, has legal >> significance and for many people cannot be changed no matter what happens >> later in your life. When you start to talk about gender diversity and >> fluidity you are into territory that some governments and some societies >> take great issue with. This is one of the things you are trying to measure >> and are asking people to (opt in to) specify. >> >> >> Further, as has been repeatedly pointed out, this is opt-in. Anyone who >> feels concerned should not opt-in. >> >> I know you feel like people will feel pressured to participate and put >> false information in, but I cannot imagine any scenario where we could >> make people feel 100% safe with an Internet-based registration system. >> So the only options we are left with are to not gather information >> because maybe someone might feel pressured to lie, or to go ahead with a >> reasonable balance of privacy & information gathering. >> >> >> I don't have any issue with collecting this type of information, processing >> it and working to improve diversity at RIPE meetings. My issue is the way >> you propose to do it. Even here you have subconsciously linked the gathering >> of this information with the registration. And that is the problem. You are >> telling people that it is anonymous. But it isn't anonymous. There is a >> simple cross reference point between this data and the identifiable >> registration data. Even if the RIPE NCC says "of course no one would make >> that cross reference", the fact that it is there means it is not anonymous. >> If you do it this way, you should not tell people it will be collected >> anonymously. You should tell people the results will be anonymised. That is >> significantly different. >> >> >> >> I don't know why we are even having to have this conversation. There >> are reputable companies that will operate surveys and the data they >> collect is disconnected from any identifiable data. Use one of them. >> You simply cannot take short cuts with such sensitive data. >> >> We are having this conversation because there are differing opinions. I >> think that I understand your concerns, I just do not agree that they >> are valid. >> >> Nevertheless, I am interested to hear of what your suggestions are for >> such reputable companies, or at least what selection criteria you would >> recommend for choosing one. >> >> >> I have no personal experience of organising such surveys. But I have sat in >> many presentations of staff survey results while at the RIPE NCC. As far as >> I could see, these companies managed the survey, processed the results and >> provided anonymous data back to the RIPE NCC. The criteria is that no one >> should have access to the raw data from both the survey and the >> registration. >> >> cheers >> denis >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Shane >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diversity mailing list >> Diversity at ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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