[db-wg] Proposal to remove "referral-by" attribute in "mntner" object or make it optional

+1

On Mon, 17 Mar 2014, Elvis Velea wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I agree with the deprecation of 'referral-by:' and it's removal from the RIPE 
> Database.
>
> Kind regards,
> Elvis
>
> On 16/03/14 20:10, Denis Walker wrote:
>>  Dear Job and Martin
>>
>>  I am sure this point was also raised by Engin at a RIPE Meeting. But there
>>  was no reaction either for or against. The RIPE NCC has proposed a number
>>  of such cleanups in the RIPE Database syntax, business rules and data over
>>  the years. But unless we get a stamp of approval we cannot move forward
>>  with them.
>>
>>  A quick history of the "referral-by:". When version 3 of the RIPE Database
>>  software was released in 2001 it was not possible for users to create
>>  their own MNTNER objects. You had to contact ripe-dbm and ask for one and
>>  justify why you needed 'another' MNTNER object. So only the RIPE NCC
>>  created MNTNER objects. That is why the documentation said the value of
>>  "referral-by:" had to be set to 'ripe-dbm-mnt' and could not be changed.
>>  In general RFC2725 defined it as a chain of trust where any existing
>>  MNTNER could create another one and be referred from it.
>>
>>  At some point the community decided asking ripe-dbm to create new MNTNER
>>  objects was over bureaucratic and not necessary. So it was opened up to
>>  allow anyone to create a MNTNER object, without any verification,
>>  validation or accountability. This is the situation we have now where a
>>  MNTNER is an anonymous box holding credentials of unknown and
>>  un-identifiable people. These are the people who maintain data in the RIPE
>>  Database. There was a cost to removing the bureaucracy.
>>
>>  As Engin pointed out, there was never any functionality implemented based
>>  on the "referral-by:" attribute. When we allowed anyone to create their
>>  own MNTNER we dropped the restriction on the value and changes to the
>>  value. The recommendation was to make it self-referencing. This was the
>>  easiest way to explain to new users what to put for the value. But it
>>  still confuses users today and if the community agrees it would be a good
>>  move to deprecate it, this would help a lot of people to understand the
>>  database.
>>
>>  When we set up AFRINIC's database in 2005, we dropped the "referral-by:"
>>  in their implementation of the whois software.
>>
>>  As there is no usage or dependency on this attribute at all, we can
>>  deprecate it from the syntax and mass update all MNTNER objects to remove
>>  it very easily.
>>
>>  If you wish to consider updating RFC2725 and RFC2622 (and later versions)
>>  bear in mind this is not the only deviation from the RFCs in the RIPE
>>  Database implementation. In fact from the start in 2001, the RIPE Database
>>  software was never strictly compliant with the RFCs. We used to say it
>>  conformed to RIPE RPSL, which was derived from the RFCs. To bring the RFCs
>>  into line with practical reality would be quite a task. Especially as the
>>  RIPE Database is a routing, reverse delegation and Internet number
>>  registry. 'RPSL' was adapted to make it work for all elements of the
>>  database.
>>
>>  I hope this explains where we are with "referral-by:". If you wish to
>>  proceed with changing this, you may wish to take another look at some of
>>  the other changes we suggested over the years that also never achieved any
>>  consensus. Some of those suggestions are still applicable now and would
>>  help to simplify aspects of the database and it's usage.
>>
>>  Regards
>>  Denis Walker
>>  Business Analyst
>>  RIPE NCC Database Team
>>
>>  On 14/03/2014 18:14, Job Snijders wrote:
>> >  On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 06:19:14PM +0200, Martin Tõnusoo wrote:
>> > 
>> > >  "referral-by" attribute(defined in RFC2725) is mandatory in "mntner"
>> > >  object:
>> > > 
>> > >  [martint@ ~/ripe-db]$ whois -BHrh whois.ripe.net -t mntner | grep
>> > >  referral-by referral-by:    [mandatory]  [single]     [ ] [martint@
>> > >  ~/ripe-db]$
>> > > 
>> > >  I checked the db-wg mailing-list archive since January 2000 and only
>> > >  discussion I found regarding this attribute was from Engin
>> > >  Gunduz(former RIPE NCC Senior Software Engineer) in June 2004: <snip>
>> > > 
>> > >  He also proposed to remove the "referral-by" attribute, but there was
>> > >  no feedback to his e-mail. One can read his e-mail here:
>> > >  https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2004-June/002797.html In
>> > >  addition, while RIPE database manual says that "referral-by attribute
>> > >  may never be altered after the addition of the maintainer", one can
>> > >  easily change it at least in current RIPE database version.
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > >  Is the "referral-by" attribute obsolete? Or is it needed in some
>> > >  specific situation? If not, I propose to remove the "referral-by"
>> > >  attribute in "mntner" object or at least make it optional.
>> >  What is to be gained by removing this attribute (or making it optional)?
>> > 
>> >  Currently the attribute is is quite prevalent in the existing database,
>> >  so outright deletion is out of the question in my honest opinion:
>> > 
>> >  princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$ grep -c referral-by ripe.db
>> >  46753
>> >  princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$
>> > 
>> >  Maybe one of the RIPE database administrators can comment on current
>> >  "referral-by" usage? What has changed between 2004 and 2014?
>> > 
>> >  How are other RIRs using the attribute? If RIPE is to deprecate the
>> >  attribute, it might be worth writing a small Internet-Draft to update
>> >  RFC 2725.
>> > 
>> >  Kind regards,
>> > 
>> >  Job
>> 
>> 
>
>
>
>

mvh

Daniel Stolpe

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