[db-wg] Proposal to remove "referral-by" attribute in "mntner" object or make it optional
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Elvis Velea
elvis at velea.eu
Mon Mar 17 12:48:44 CET 2014
Hi everyone, I agree with the deprecation of 'referral-by:' and it's removal from the RIPE Database. Kind regards, Elvis On 16/03/14 20:10, Denis Walker wrote: > Dear Job and Martin > > I am sure this point was also raised by Engin at a RIPE Meeting. But > there was no reaction either for or against. The RIPE NCC has proposed > a number of such cleanups in the RIPE Database syntax, business rules > and data over the years. But unless we get a stamp of approval we > cannot move forward with them. > > A quick history of the "referral-by:". When version 3 of the RIPE > Database software was released in 2001 it was not possible for users > to create their own MNTNER objects. You had to contact ripe-dbm and > ask for one and justify why you needed 'another' MNTNER object. So > only the RIPE NCC created MNTNER objects. That is why the > documentation said the value of "referral-by:" had to be set to > 'ripe-dbm-mnt' and could not be changed. In general RFC2725 defined it > as a chain of trust where any existing MNTNER could create another one > and be referred from it. > > At some point the community decided asking ripe-dbm to create new > MNTNER objects was over bureaucratic and not necessary. So it was > opened up to allow anyone to create a MNTNER object, without any > verification, validation or accountability. This is the situation we > have now where a MNTNER is an anonymous box holding credentials of > unknown and un-identifiable people. These are the people who maintain > data in the RIPE Database. There was a cost to removing the bureaucracy. > > As Engin pointed out, there was never any functionality implemented > based on the "referral-by:" attribute. When we allowed anyone to > create their own MNTNER we dropped the restriction on the value and > changes to the value. The recommendation was to make it > self-referencing. This was the easiest way to explain to new users > what to put for the value. But it still confuses users today and if > the community agrees it would be a good move to deprecate it, this > would help a lot of people to understand the database. > > When we set up AFRINIC's database in 2005, we dropped the > "referral-by:" in their implementation of the whois software. > > As there is no usage or dependency on this attribute at all, we can > deprecate it from the syntax and mass update all MNTNER objects to > remove it very easily. > > If you wish to consider updating RFC2725 and RFC2622 (and later > versions) bear in mind this is not the only deviation from the RFCs in > the RIPE Database implementation. In fact from the start in 2001, the > RIPE Database software was never strictly compliant with the RFCs. We > used to say it conformed to RIPE RPSL, which was derived from the > RFCs. To bring the RFCs into line with practical reality would be > quite a task. Especially as the RIPE Database is a routing, reverse > delegation and Internet number registry. 'RPSL' was adapted to make it > work for all elements of the database. > > I hope this explains where we are with "referral-by:". If you wish to > proceed with changing this, you may wish to take another look at some > of the other changes we suggested over the years that also never > achieved any consensus. Some of those suggestions are still applicable > now and would help to simplify aspects of the database and it's usage. > > Regards > Denis Walker > Business Analyst > RIPE NCC Database Team > > On 14/03/2014 18:14, Job Snijders wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 06:19:14PM +0200, Martin Tõnusoo wrote: >> >>> "referral-by" attribute(defined in RFC2725) is mandatory in "mntner" >>> object: >>> >>> [martint@ ~/ripe-db]$ whois -BHrh whois.ripe.net -t mntner | grep >>> referral-by referral-by: [mandatory] [single] [ ] [martint@ >>> ~/ripe-db]$ >>> >>> I checked the db-wg mailing-list archive since January 2000 and only >>> discussion I found regarding this attribute was from Engin >>> Gunduz(former RIPE NCC Senior Software Engineer) in June 2004: <snip> >>> >>> He also proposed to remove the "referral-by" attribute, but there was >>> no feedback to his e-mail. One can read his e-mail here: >>> https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/db-wg/2004-June/002797.html In >>> addition, while RIPE database manual says that "referral-by attribute >>> may never be altered after the addition of the maintainer", one can >>> easily change it at least in current RIPE database version. >>> >>> >>> Is the "referral-by" attribute obsolete? Or is it needed in some >>> specific situation? If not, I propose to remove the "referral-by" >>> attribute in "mntner" object or at least make it optional. >> What is to be gained by removing this attribute (or making it optional)? >> >> Currently the attribute is is quite prevalent in the existing database, >> so outright deletion is out of the question in my honest opinion: >> >> princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$ grep -c referral-by ripe.db >> 46753 >> princess at worker02:/var/spool/irr_database$ >> >> Maybe one of the RIPE database administrators can comment on current >> "referral-by" usage? What has changed between 2004 and 2014? >> >> How are other RIRs using the attribute? If RIPE is to deprecate the >> attribute, it might be worth writing a small Internet-Draft to update >> RFC 2725. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Job > >
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