From athina.fragkouli at ripe.net Tue Mar 6 17:41:53 2018 From: athina.fragkouli at ripe.net (Athina Fragkouli) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:41:53 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] New on RIPE Labs: Legal Grounds for Lawful Personal Data Processing and the RIPE Database (GDPR) In-Reply-To: <8f4e5d04-12a4-2f92-7ffe-c3854c6eb379@ripe.net> References: <8f4e5d04-12a4-2f92-7ffe-c3854c6eb379@ripe.net> Message-ID: <5ec65481-a685-e61c-cf19-c87c8e5c0fe4@ripe.net> Dear all, In our third article on the GDPR, we are looking at the legal basis for processing personal data in the RIPE Database when it refers to an individual resource holder or contact person. We will also outline the relevant obligations of the responsible parties. https://labs.ripe.net/Members/Athina/gdpr-legal-grounds-for-lawful-personal-data-processing-and-the-ripe-database Kind regards, Athina Fragkouli Head of Legal RIPE NCC From julf at julf.com Tue Mar 13 19:00:07 2018 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 19:00:07 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Fwd: [iot-wg] Fwd: Call for new ENISA Expert Group on Transport Security In-Reply-To: <0B1E236F-DE96-47DD-82E3-54A692F3833E@ripe.net> References: <0B1E236F-DE96-47DD-82E3-54A692F3833E@ripe.net> Message-ID: -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [iot-wg] Fwd: Call for new ENISA Expert Group on Transport Security Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:39:14 +0100 From: Marco Hogewoning To: iot-wg at ripe.net Dear Colleagues, Please find below a message received from ENISA regarding the creation of an expert group on transport security and resilience. Although quite far away from RIPE?s mission and mandate, with the ever increasing importance of Internet technology and the IP transport layer, it might be of benefit to bring expertise on these areas into that dialogue. At this stage RIPE NCC does not envision to take part in this group directly, although we will try and keep track of progress and any outcomes that might relate to the interests of the RIPE community. Regards, Marco Hogewoning Senior External Relations Officer RIPE NCC Begin forwarded message: > > Dear Experts, > > I trust this email finds you well. > > We would like to bring to your attention a call for applications for a > new ENISA Experts Group on Transport Security and Resilience. > The focus of the group will be air, rail and water transport and you > can find more information here: > https://www.enisa.europa.eu/news/enisa-news/call-for-experts-for-transsec-transport-resilience-and-security-expert-group > > Please feel free to share with your networks. > > Best regards, > -Apostolos > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Dr Apostolos Malatras > > Network and Information Security Expert > European Union Agency for Network & Information Security > > Address: ?????????????1 Vass Sofias Str, Marousi 151 24, Attica, Greece > E- mail: ????????????????Apostolos.Malatras at enisa.europa.eu > > Office: ??????????????????+30 2814 409 630 > Mobile: ????????????????+30 6985 051 401 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julf at julf.com Thu Mar 22 14:55:24 2018 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 14:55:24 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Fwd: Last call for presentations and Draft programme for RIPE 76 In-Reply-To: <206ec988-d4e5-63a4-d101-f399cb37d4cd@NLnetLabs.nl> References: <206ec988-d4e5-63a4-d101-f399cb37d4cd@NLnetLabs.nl> Message-ID: We could definitely use a few more submissions for the co-op wg session... Julf -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [ripe-list] Last call for presentations and Draft programme for RIPE 76 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 23:53:38 +0000 From: Benno Overeinder To: ripe-list at ripe.net Colleagues, A list of currently accepted RIPE 76 presentations is now published at: https://ripe76.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/plenary/ There are still plenary, BoF, tutorial and workshop slots remaining for the final RIPE 76 programme and RIPE Programme Committee will accept new proposals until *8 April 2018*. This is our last call for you to submit your proposals. You can find the CFP for RIPE 76 below, or at https://ripe76.ripe.net/submit-topic/cfp/, for your proposals for plenary session presentations, tutorials, workshops, BoFs (Birds of a Feather sessions) and lightning talks. Please also note that speakers do not receive any extra reduction or funding towards the meeting fee at the RIPE Meetings, see the "Speakers" paragraph in CFP for more information. Kind regards, Benno Overeinder RIPE PC Chair https://ripe76.ripe.net/ripe-pc -------------------->>><<<-------------------- Call for Presentations A RIPE Meeting is an open event where Internet Service Providers, network operators and other interested parties get together. Although the meeting is mostly technical, it is also a chance for people to meet and network with others in their field. RIPE 76 will take place from 14-18 May in Marseille, France. The RIPE Programme Committee (PC) is now seeking content proposals from the RIPE community for the plenary sessions, BoFs (Birds of a Feather sessions), panels, workshops, tutorials and lightning talks at RIPE 76. See the full descriptions of the different presentation formats, https://ripe76.ripe.net/submit-topic/presentation-formats/. Proposals for plenary sessions, BoFs, panels, workshops and tutorials must be submitted for full consideration no later than *8 April 2018*. Proposals submitted after this date will be considered depending on the remaining available space in the programme. The PC is looking for presentations covering topics of network engineering and operations, including but not limited to: - IPv6 deployment - Managing IPv4 scarcity - Data centre technologies - Network and DNS operations - Internet governance and regulatory practices - Network and routing security - Content delivery - Internet peering and mobile data exchange - Connected Things (aka. Internet of Things - IoT) Speakers Presenters, RIPE Working Group Chairs and the RIPE Programme Committee are required to cover their own costs to attend a RIPE Meeting (meeting ticket, travel and accommodation). We have various ticket options available depending on your needs. In extraordinary circumstances, the RIPE Chair can waive the meeting fee for presenters. These requests are dealt with on a case-by-case basis via pc at ripe.net. Also note that, on an individual basis, participants can apply for a RIPE Fellowship to develop their professional or academic career. For more information, please visit: https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/ripe-fellowship Submissions Presenters should be clear on whether they wish to submit a presentation for a plenary or working group (WG) session. At present, most working groups will solicit policy proposals, discussion points or other content directly via their mailing lists. If you?re not sure what kind of session you should be presenting at, please visit: https://ripe76.ripe.net/plenary-or-wg/ RIPE Meeting attendees are quite sensitive to keeping presentations non-commercial, and product marketing talks are strongly discouraged. Repeated audience feedback shows that the most successful talks focus on operational experience, research results, or case studies. For example, presenters wishing to describe a commercial solution should focus on the underlying technology and not attempt a product demonstration. Presenters should indicate how much time they will require. In general, the time allocated for the different presentation formats is as follows: - Plenary presentations: 20-25 minutes presentation with 5-10 minutes discussion - Tutorials: up to two hours (Monday morning) - Workshops: one hour (during evening sessions) to two hours (Monday morning) - BoFs: approximately one hour (during evening sessions) - Lightning talks: 10 minutes total for both presentation and any discussion The following general requirements apply: - Proposals must be submitted using the meeting submission system, https://ripe76.ripe.net/submit-topic/ - Lightning talks should also be submitted using the meeting submission system (https://ripe76.ripe.net/submit-topic/) and can be submitted any time up to and including the meeting week. The allocation of lightning talks will be announced on short notice, in some cases on the same day but often one day prior to the time slot allocated. - Presenters who propose a panel or BoF are encouraged to include speakers from several (perhaps even competing) companies and/or a neutral facilitator. - All presentation proposals will only be considered by the PC if they contain at least draft presentation slides (slides may be updated later on). For panels, proposals must contain a clear description, as well as the names of invited panellists, presenters and moderators. If you have any questions or requests concerning content submissions, please email pc at ripe.net. -- Benno J. Overeinder NLnet Labs https://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ From mike.oghia at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 15:05:14 2018 From: mike.oghia at gmail.com (Michael J. Oghia) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 15:05:14 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Communicating IG final report Message-ID: Hi everyone, Two of my colleagues and I organized a workshop at IGF 2017 that examined ways we could better discuss and communicate about Internet governance (titled: "Explaining Internet Governance to Friends and Family 101: How to Improve our Communication?"). The final report with recommendations is now available (attached), and I thought it might be relevant to some on this list. It is also available to download at: https://bit.ly/WS161Report Please reply to this email if you have any questions or comments, and feel free to share it with your networks. Best, -Michael __________________ Michael J. Oghia #Netgov consultant & researcher | editor Belgrade, Serbia Skype: mikeoghia Twitter *|* LinkedIn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IGF - WS 161 report (final).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 308659 bytes Desc: not available URL: From isavnin at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 21:43:47 2018 From: isavnin at gmail.com (Alexander Isavnin) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 21:43:47 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Michele! Chapter 8 of Russian "About Police" laws says: "Police activities are open for society unless it does not restricted by criminal or civil proceedings, or affects rights of other citizens and organizations" Do i need to add something about openness and transparency of RIPE NCC? Chapter 5 of this law defines how police officer must introduce himself to a citizen or respond to introduction request from citizen. Chapler 25 requires police officer to wear badge with identification number. For other Russian LEAs requiremens are close. Actually, in Russia police officers starting from major does not like to introduce themself, saying something that they are too high to introduce themselves, but the law does not have any exception (and i usially file claim on such officer). THIS IS LAW! If following the law makes meeting with Law Enforcers "problematic" - than such LEA does not deserve to be met. I feel, that police laws of other countries have same requrements. If police officer need to stay undercover - it might come to RIPE meeting under cover of civillian and try to get educated there. Kind regards, Alexander Isavnin P. S. Objections for transpatency of RIPE NCC LEA meetings are usially recieved from former police officers. Hmmm, what are they trying to hide? Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum From jim at rfc1035.com Wed Mar 28 10:51:37 2018 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:51:37 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98B21B49-86BD-4E06-9F20-294AE624D9A2@rfc1035.com> > On 27 Mar 2018, at 20:43, Alexander Isavnin wrote: > > P. S. Objections for transpatency of RIPE NCC LEA meetings are usially recieved from former police officers. Hmmm, what are they trying to hide? Alexander, I don't understand your complaint or why it's directed at the NCC. If you want transparency, openness and so on from Russian law enforcement, that's something to discuss with the Russian authorities. Good luck with that. :-) It's perfectly reasonable for the NCC to have confidential meetings with people and organisations for all sorts of things: recruitment, RFP responses, negotiations with suppliers, professional advice from lawyers and beancounters, etc, etc. This Russian workshop is just another example. IMO if the NCC has some workshop with the Russian cops and the cops say "OK, but we want this to be confidential", it's fine to go ahead on that basis. I expect the NCC has closed meetings with law enforcement across the service region: active criminal investigations, forensics for botnet herders. DDoS mitigation, etc, etc. If anything sinister emerged at this workshop, we can (or should) trust the NCC staff to do The Right Thing. From shane at time-travellers.org Wed Mar 28 10:58:00 2018 From: shane at time-travellers.org (Shane Kerr) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 08:58:00 +0000 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> Message-ID: <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Michele, [ Hm... I had this marked as "sent on 2018-02-21" on my mailbox, but I don't see it on the mailing list archives. Re-sending a month later. ] I was at a gathering where a member of the Dutch government explained the negotiations with the US regarding TTIP(*). Basically the US insisted that all negotiations be done in secret. The Dutch representatives felt like they had no choice, so agreed to this condition. The feeling of most of the room, including myself, was that the Dutch government should have said that it was impossible for us to conduct such non-transparent discussions and walked away. That is my feeling here too with the RIPE NCC and LEA, which is to say that I basically agree with Alexander. I realize that LEA officials may not have freedom to attend meetings openly for many reasons. That is a shame and I do not blame them or think that they necessarily have bad motives. Legal restrictions may exist, or simply perception problems, and these can be very real. But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes certain types of interactions impossible. It may also be that LEA culture and governmental culture in general reflexively tries to do things in secret - or at least private - that do not need to be. Perhaps the RIPE community pushing a bit may move things in the right direction. In terms of oversight and accountability, such secret meetings are also problematic for the RIPE NCC members. How can a member evaluate if their interests are being represented if they cannot even know who is being talked to? Alexander's concerns about discussions with bad actors seem justified to me. Cheers, -- Shane (*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership Michele Neylon - Blacknight: > > Holding meetings with LEA is a good idea in order to help them understand what we all do as well as to understand their concerns. > > Demanding that they register etc., would make such meetings problematic. > > So I disagree with you fundamentally. > > Regards > > Michele > > > -- > Mr Michele Neylon > Blacknight Solutions > Hosting, Colocation & Domains > https://www.blacknight.com/ > http://blacknight.blog/ > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 > Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ > Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ > ------------------------------- > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 > ?On 19/02/2018, 15:08, "cooperation-wg on behalf of Alexander Isavnin" wrote: > > Chris! > > Seems i'v mistaken, and Openness and Transparency are no longer essencial values for RIPE NCC. > > No gap could be briged if LEAs stays anonymous. > Breaking openness and transparency for comfort of some doubtful officers - is really bad idea. > > Why i ask for LEA deanonymisation? > Read ECHR cases against Russia on tortures (and other abuses) by all kind of LEAs. It would be really pity, if later appears, that RIPE NCC have met some of such abusers. > > Regards, > Alexander > > P.S. As we say in Internet: "pics, or never happened" > P.P.S. Also, "Once cop always cop", even if it tries to infiltrate into engeneering world. As we seen, successfully protecting interests of cops, rather than interests of Community. > > Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum > > > From jim at rfc1035.com Wed Mar 28 11:17:47 2018 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 10:17:47 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: > On 28 Mar 2018, at 09:58, Shane Kerr wrote: > > But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should > strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes > certain types of interactions impossible. I'm sorry Shane but I strongly disagree. What you seem to be advocating is unwise and possibly dangerous. Of course everyone here wants maximum openness and transparency. Or should do. However there are parts of our community, like law enforcement or those responsible for critical national infrastructure, which may find that difficult or uncomfortable. Or even impossible. So we have to somehow accommodate that, work with these groups and encourage them to become more open when interacting with the broader interweb community. If the NCC said to govenments or law enforcement "you won't play by our rules - get lost", that would not just be disappointing. It would not have a happy ending. From michele at blacknight.com Wed Mar 28 13:56:13 2018 From: michele at blacknight.com (Michele Neylon - Blacknight) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 11:56:13 +0000 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: +1 Jim Open and transparent is what we'd all like, but if the choice is between zero interaction with LEA and some interaction under specific conditions I know which option I want. -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ http://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 ? From chrisb at ripe.net Wed Mar 28 14:52:09 2018 From: chrisb at ripe.net (Chris Buckridge) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 14:52:09 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: Hi Shane, all, I?m reiterating what I said at the beginning of this thread, but I would like to respond to the characterisation of this event as a "secret meeting?. The RIPE NCC understands the importance that our membership and community place on transparency. Our efforts in relation to this particular event included: - Notifying the community that the engagement had taken place (via this list) - Providing the meeting agenda - Providing links to the material presented by RIPE NCC staff at the event The latter two are available here: https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/lea-meetings/ripe-ncc-lea-meeting-31-january-2018 This information is provided specifically so that our membership and community can understand the reason for the meeting, the topics under discussion and the position conveyed by the RIPE NCC in those discussions. In this case, the event was organised in cooperation with the Ministry of Telecom and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation (a practical outcome of the agreement signed between the Ministry and the RIPE NCC in 2017). The Ministry invited representatives of a number of Russian law enforcement agencies, but the RIPE NCC did not collect names of the participants. Best regards, Chris ?? Chris Buckridge External Relations Manager RIPE NCC > On 28 Mar 2018, at 10:58, Shane Kerr wrote: > > Michele, > > [ Hm... I had this marked as "sent on 2018-02-21" on my mailbox, but I > don't see it on the mailing list archives. Re-sending a month later. ] > > I was at a gathering where a member of the Dutch government explained > the negotiations with the US regarding TTIP(*). Basically the US > insisted that all negotiations be done in secret. The Dutch > representatives felt like they had no choice, so agreed to this > condition. The feeling of most of the room, including myself, was that > the Dutch government should have said that it was impossible for us to > conduct such non-transparent discussions and walked away. > > That is my feeling here too with the RIPE NCC and LEA, which is to say > that I basically agree with Alexander. > > I realize that LEA officials may not have freedom to attend meetings > openly for many reasons. That is a shame and I do not blame them or > think that they necessarily have bad motives. Legal restrictions may > exist, or simply perception problems, and these can be very real. > > But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should > strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes > certain types of interactions impossible. > > It may also be that LEA culture and governmental culture in general > reflexively tries to do things in secret - or at least private - that do > not need to be. Perhaps the RIPE community pushing a bit may move things > in the right direction. > > In terms of oversight and accountability, such secret meetings are also > problematic for the RIPE NCC members. How can a member evaluate if their > interests are being represented if they cannot even know who is being > talked to? Alexander's concerns about discussions with bad actors seem > justified to me. > > Cheers, > > -- > Shane > > (*) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership > > Michele Neylon - Blacknight: >> >> Holding meetings with LEA is a good idea in order to help them understand what we all do as well as to understand their concerns. >> >> Demanding that they register etc., would make such meetings problematic. >> >> So I disagree with you fundamentally. >> >> Regards >> >> Michele >> >> >> -- >> Mr Michele Neylon >> Blacknight Solutions >> Hosting, Colocation & Domains >> https://www.blacknight.com/ >> http://blacknight.blog/ >> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 >> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 >> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ >> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ >> ------------------------------- >> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty >> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 >> ?On 19/02/2018, 15:08, "cooperation-wg on behalf of Alexander Isavnin" wrote: >> >> Chris! >> >> Seems i'v mistaken, and Openness and Transparency are no longer essencial values for RIPE NCC. >> >> No gap could be briged if LEAs stays anonymous. >> Breaking openness and transparency for comfort of some doubtful officers - is really bad idea. >> >> Why i ask for LEA deanonymisation? >> Read ECHR cases against Russia on tortures (and other abuses) by all kind of LEAs. It would be really pity, if later appears, that RIPE NCC have met some of such abusers. >> >> Regards, >> Alexander >> >> P.S. As we say in Internet: "pics, or never happened" >> P.P.S. Also, "Once cop always cop", even if it tries to infiltrate into engeneering world. As we seen, successfully protecting interests of cops, rather than interests of Community. >> >> Sent via RIPE Forum -- https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/forum >> >> >> > > From ark at eltex.net Thu Mar 29 11:44:36 2018 From: ark at eltex.net (Alex Smirnoff) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:44:36 +0300 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: <20180329094436.6h47thhqptmy6uhp@schwartzvogel> Why? It is the attitude I'd expect ;-) On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:17:47AM +0100, Jim Reid wrote: > > But the Internet culture has always been transparent, and we should > > strive always for maximum openness and transparency, even if this makes > > certain types of interactions impossible. > > I'm sorry Shane but I strongly disagree. What you seem to be advocating is unwise and possibly dangerous. > > Of course everyone here wants maximum openness and transparency. Or should do. However there are parts of our community, like law enforcement or those responsible for critical national infrastructure, which may find that difficult or uncomfortable. Or even impossible. So we have to somehow accommodate that, work with these groups and encourage them to become more open when interacting with the broader interweb community. > > If the NCC said to govenments or law enforcement "you won't play by our rules - get lost", that would not just be disappointing. It would not have a happy ending. > > From ark at eltex.net Thu Mar 29 11:45:44 2018 From: ark at eltex.net (Alex Smirnoff) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:45:44 +0300 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> Message-ID: <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> It is like they need us, not vice versa, right? On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 11:56:13AM +0000, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote: > +1 Jim > > Open and transparent is what we'd all like, but if the choice is between zero interaction with LEA and some interaction under specific conditions I know which option I want. > From jim at rfc1035.com Thu Mar 29 12:07:02 2018 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:07:02 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> Message-ID: > On 29 Mar 2018, at 10:45, Alex Smirnoff wrote: > > It is like they need us, not vice versa, right? First, let?s stop this ?us? and ?them? attitude. It?s wrong and unhelpful. Law enforcement, regulators and so on are members of the RIPE community. We have to work with these sectors, just like we engage with IXPs, ISPs, privacy activists and so on. An adversarial relationship with the authorities will not be in the best interests of anyone. That doesn?t mean ?we? must always agree with ?them?. It does mean at a minimum that there are channels for discussion and mutual understanding and that these work well. It looks to me that the recent workshop was a welcome step in that direction. And FWIW we need ?them? just as much as they need ?us?. We?re all passengers on the same Internet bus and we have a common interest in making sure the wheels don?t come off. From mike.oghia at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 12:22:26 2018 From: mike.oghia at gmail.com (Michael J. Oghia) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:22:26 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> Message-ID: I agree Jim. At the risk of sounding naive, while it is of course important to be critical, advocate for transparency, and take a stand when needed, alienating LEAs who have legitatent challenges and concerns won't do us any good. Of course, that may be slightly off-topic given the initial response by Alexander, and I do understand his criticism. Best, -Michael On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Jim Reid wrote: > > > > On 29 Mar 2018, at 10:45, Alex Smirnoff wrote: > > > > It is like they need us, not vice versa, right? > > First, let?s stop this ?us? and ?them? attitude. It?s wrong and unhelpful. > > Law enforcement, regulators and so on are members of the RIPE community. > We have to work with these sectors, just like we engage with IXPs, ISPs, > privacy activists and so on. > > An adversarial relationship with the authorities will not be in the best > interests of anyone. That doesn?t mean ?we? must always agree with ?them?. > It does mean at a minimum that there are channels for discussion and mutual > understanding and that these work well. It looks to me that the recent > workshop was a welcome step in that direction. > > And FWIW we need ?them? just as much as they need ?us?. We?re all > passengers on the same Internet bus and we have a common interest in making > sure the wheels don?t come off. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.oghia at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 12:30:29 2018 From: mike.oghia at gmail.com (Michael J. Oghia) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 12:30:29 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Michael J. Oghia wrote: > I agree Jim. At the risk of sounding naive, while it is of course > important to be critical, advocate for transparency, and take a stand when > needed, alienating LEAs who have legitatent challenges and concerns won't > do us any good. Of course, that may be slightly off-topic given the initial > response by Alexander, and I do understand his criticism. > > Best, > -Michael > Edit: legitimate* I also forgot to mention that increased dialogue and collaboration with LEAs is happening across Europe (Europol is one example). Again, though, that may be a different issue in scope than the issue that was initially raised. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ark at eltex.net Thu Mar 29 13:16:57 2018 From: ark at eltex.net (Alex Smirnoff) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:16:57 +0300 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> Message-ID: <20180329111656.5238866.16667.10200@eltex.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.lennox.13 at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 18:06:41 2018 From: gordon.lennox.13 at gmail.com (Gordon Lennox) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 18:06:41 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> Message-ID: <8AE9C3F6-3EDA-422A-82D6-0A1931256777@gmail.com> > On 29 Mar 2018, at 12:07, Jim Reid wrote: > > Law enforcement, regulators and so on are members of the RIPE community. So they should come to RIPE meetings? NCC has been good in reaching out to various communities. But I would have hoped the result would have been that these communities would have seen the benefit in then coming to participate in RIPE meetings. There ought to be no barrier. They just need to pay and turn up like everybody else. Unlike academics, for example, these organisations have the funds. > We have to work with these sectors, just like we engage with IXPs, ISPs, privacy activists and so on. We had a range of participants in IETF 101 - from NSA and NIST to EuroPol and various European governments (albeit sometimes discretely in the form of experts and consultants) to human rights folk. I think this is good and what we should aspire to: wider participation, a healthy level of transparency. Gordon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim at rfc1035.com Thu Mar 29 19:28:58 2018 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 18:28:58 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] LEA participaton in RIPE meetings In-Reply-To: <8AE9C3F6-3EDA-422A-82D6-0A1931256777@gmail.com> References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> <8AE9C3F6-3EDA-422A-82D6-0A1931256777@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2420EA6A-9779-4B26-8D07-6E28A908FA33@rfc1035.com> > On 29 Mar 2018, at 17:06, Gordon Lennox wrote: > >> Law enforcement, regulators and so on are members of the RIPE community. > > So they should come to RIPE meetings? Of course. Assuming they see the value in that, just like anyone else who might show up. > NCC has been good in reaching out to various communities. But I would have hoped the result would have been that these communities would have seen the benefit in then coming to participate in RIPE meetings. Law enforcement and government officials have been to RIPE meetings in the past. I even drank beer (and single malt) with some of them. Whether they see benefit from continuing participation or not depends on a lot of unknowns: content, budget, other commitments/priorities. [You?ll appreciate some of these issues Gordon from your time at the Commisssion and the management hoops you had to jump through to attend a RIPE meeting.] Or perhaps Law enforcement and government officials get enough from these workshop type things and roundtables that a full RIPE meeting doesn?t matter so much. From pelkwijk at gmail.com Fri Mar 30 14:35:37 2018 From: pelkwijk at gmail.com (Julius ter Pelkwijk) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 12:35:37 +0000 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RIPE NCC Hosts Workshop for Russian LEAs In-Reply-To: <8AE9C3F6-3EDA-422A-82D6-0A1931256777@gmail.com> References: <1073915E-C4C9-4853-97DF-9E072F37A2C1@ripe.net> <954354b3-08a3-8644-de29-81c4796d52a0@time-travellers.org> <20180329094544.6l6ohwcyigunetch@schwartzvogel> <8AE9C3F6-3EDA-422A-82D6-0A1931256777@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I am following this topic for a while now, but did not have the chance to write down something, finally got the chance. As one of the organizers for SHA2017, I have been through this whole debate, and it kept popping up ever since OHM2013. There is this whole idea of "us" vs "them", and trust me, it goes both ways. At SHA2017 we (the foundation) decided that it was not feasible to have organisations as sponsors with known links to the Dutch Ministry of Justice. This had nothing to do with the sponsor, but with their client, at that time it was "Ivo Opstelten", who basically rattled the cage for most of our visitors. He was the cause of a lot of people throwing tantrums and leaving, even caused board members to step down due to their affiliation with the Ministry. Thanks to sponsors like RIPE we could make the event awesome. I have to say that education is something that needs to be done, and if the client pays someone from RIPE to give a workshop, so be it. You like a list of all 3500+ participants that watched Becha on our event, based on "transparency"? Would be a long list, and I am pretty sure that I am legally not even allowed. If RIPE starts to exclude certain teams based on their profession, then you will be sure that they will find someone else to get educated by, and trust me, they are not always the "good" guys. Education is key, no matter your background. Greetings, Julius ter Pelkwijk Secretary IFCAT On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 6:07 PM Gordon Lennox wrote: > On 29 Mar 2018, at 12:07, Jim Reid wrote: > > Law enforcement, regulators and so on are members of the RIPE community. > > > So they should come to RIPE meetings? > > NCC has been good in reaching out to various communities. But I would have > hoped the result would have been that these communities would have seen the > benefit in then coming to participate in RIPE meetings. There ought to be > no barrier. They just need to pay and turn up like everybody else. Unlike > academics, for example, these organisations have the funds. > > We have to work with these sectors, just like we engage with IXPs, ISPs, > privacy activists and so on. > > > We had a range of participants in IETF 101 - from NSA and NIST to EuroPol > and various European governments (albeit sometimes discretely in the form > of experts and consultants) to human rights folk. I think this is good and > what we should aspire to: wider participation, a healthy level of > transparency. > > Gordon > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: