From jim at rfc1035.com Thu Jun 2 11:17:26 2011 From: jim at rfc1035.com (Jim Reid) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 10:17:26 +0100 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> Message-ID: On 2 Jun 2011, at 09:07, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: > Only regulation can unlock this situation. That forces E.164 holders > to either have a DNS that people can enter whatever they want, or > let third parties run DNS for the E.164 numbers in question. True. But, playing Devil's Advocate, why would a regulator want to intervene? I expect they'd feel there was no point because the market has already made its decision about public ENUM. That would also get them off the hook for regulatory oversight of the Tier-1 delegation and name space: registry contract, codes of conduct, SLAs, etc. If you were the regulator, what path would you choose? :-) From paf at cisco.com Thu Jun 2 10:07:30 2011 From: paf at cisco.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 10:07:30 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> Message-ID: <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> On 1 jun 2011, at 19.14, Richard Shockey wrote: > Well as your former ENUM WG chair (yea!! NO BLUE DOT!!!) .. Yes public ENUM is essentially dead. That just because the holders of E.164 does not allow end users that use the E.164 in question have the ENUM record in DNS refer to whatever they want. Only regulation can unlock this situation. That forces E.164 holders to either have a DNS that people can enter whatever they want, or let third parties run DNS for the E.164 numbers in question. This has nothing directly to do with ENUM, but rather whether the E.164 number should be tied to one and only one specific provider of services or not. I also copy cooperation wg in RIPE as that wg is one that could discuss this lock-in situation that exists. Patrik From paf at cisco.com Thu Jun 2 11:26:54 2011 From: paf at cisco.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 11:26:54 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> Message-ID: <489DDB20-84B4-47C6-9932-13F2CE3B30D3@cisco.com> On 2 jun 2011, at 11.17, Jim Reid wrote: > On 2 Jun 2011, at 09:07, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: > >> Only regulation can unlock this situation. That forces E.164 holders to either have a DNS that people can enter whatever they want, or let third parties run DNS for the E.164 numbers in question. > > True. But, playing Devil's Advocate, why would a regulator want to intervene? From a competition point of view. The question is of course if the E.164 is to be used for other services than voice. If so, without unbundling of E.164 from the (one) provider of services, only the provider of the voice service that the E.164 is tied to can also provide other services (like video conferencing, SIP etc). It is completely up to the regulators what kind of competition and open market they want. > I expect they'd feel there was no point because the market has already made its decision about public ENUM. That would also get them off the hook for regulatory oversight of the Tier-1 delegation and name space: registry contract, codes of conduct, SLAs, etc. If you were the regulator, what path would you choose? :-) I would immediately require the provider that is tied to the E.164 to 1. Run DNS/ENUM for the numbers they provide services for 2. Give the ability for the user of the E.164 to say what URIs the NAPTRs for the E.164 should refer to 3. As alternative to 1+2, give the ability for the user of the E.164 to run DNS themselves (directly or indirectly at a third party DNS provider) 4. Require the ones that run the LNP database (or equivalent) to expose the content via ENUM It is serious now. Either E.164 numbers will never again be used, and will die a slow death, or it will be used also in the future. It is up to the regulator. Patrik From paf at cisco.com Thu Jun 2 17:18:13 2011 From: paf at cisco.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?=) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:18:13 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: <005401cc2137$73962780$5ac27680$@us> References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> <489DDB20-84B4-47C6-9932-13F2CE3B30D3@cisco.com> <005401cc2137$73962780$5ac27680$@us> Message-ID: <3CA8E5E1-2746-4F71-8B28-899D922A172F@cisco.com> On 2 jun 2011, at 17.12, Richard Shockey wrote: > Patrik is right. It really is a competition issue. What I'm sure of is that > E.164 is NOT going away anytime soon despite what our IETF colleagues think. It is going away from the minds of people. People have the E.164 in their address books etc, and even though E.164 is used for the actual dialing, it is less and less important what the number is, that you can keep your number etc. It is there in some vcard that you pass around, and it could as well include a SIP address or whatever. The importance is fast going away. > The competition issue is also the driver for carrier ENUM as well. I'm > getting serious hints on this side of the pond that the driver is HD Voice > (G.722) especially for the LTE mobile deployments rolling out in 2012. The > carriers finally realized they cant deploy anything new if the number > translation infrastructure remained the same. No, that is not the driver. It is the other way around. People invent new services, and then the question is what identifier one should use. Incumbents that do have E.164 numbers of course want to use them. Others do not want to use E.164 numbers. Who has innovated most the last 100 years? In the telephony space, champagne bottles where opened when they invented '*' and '#' on the phones, and that was probably the greatest invention for the 15 year period around it. On the Internet we get a new good service every minute. Patrik -- being provocative by design at the moment to make my point > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrik F?ltstr?m [mailto:paf at cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 5:27 AM > To: Jim Reid > Cc: Richard Shockey; RIPE ENUM WG; cooperation-wg at ripe.net > Subject: Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM > > On 2 jun 2011, at 11.17, Jim Reid wrote: > >> On 2 Jun 2011, at 09:07, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: >> >>> Only regulation can unlock this situation. That forces E.164 holders to > either have a DNS that people can enter whatever they want, or let third > parties run DNS for the E.164 numbers in question. >> >> True. But, playing Devil's Advocate, why would a regulator want to > intervene? > > From a competition point of view. > > The question is of course if the E.164 is to be used for other services than > voice. If so, without unbundling of E.164 from the (one) provider of > services, only the provider of the voice service that the E.164 is tied to > can also provide other services (like video conferencing, SIP etc). > > It is completely up to the regulators what kind of competition and open > market they want. > >> I expect they'd feel there was no point because the market has already > made its decision about public ENUM. That would also get them off the hook > for regulatory oversight of the Tier-1 delegation and name space: registry > contract, codes of conduct, SLAs, etc. If you were the regulator, what path > would you choose? :-) > > I would immediately require the provider that is tied to the E.164 to > > 1. Run DNS/ENUM for the numbers they provide services for > > 2. Give the ability for the user of the E.164 to say what URIs the NAPTRs > for the E.164 should refer to > > 3. As alternative to 1+2, give the ability for the user of the E.164 to run > DNS themselves (directly or indirectly at a third party DNS provider) > > 4. Require the ones that run the LNP database (or equivalent) to expose the > content via ENUM > > It is serious now. Either E.164 numbers will never again be used, and will > die a slow death, or it will be used also in the future. It is up to the > regulator. > > Patrik > From richard at shockey.us Thu Jun 2 17:12:11 2011 From: richard at shockey.us (Richard Shockey) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 11:12:11 -0400 Subject: [cooperation-wg] RE: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: <489DDB20-84B4-47C6-9932-13F2CE3B30D3@cisco.com> References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> <489DDB20-84B4-47C6-9932-13F2CE3B30D3@cisco.com> Message-ID: <005401cc2137$73962780$5ac27680$@us> Patrik is right. It really is a competition issue. What I'm sure of is that E.164 is NOT going away anytime soon despite what our IETF colleagues think. The competition issue is also the driver for carrier ENUM as well. I'm getting serious hints on this side of the pond that the driver is HD Voice (G.722) especially for the LTE mobile deployments rolling out in 2012. The carriers finally realized they cant deploy anything new if the number translation infrastructure remained the same. -----Original Message----- From: Patrik F?ltstr?m [mailto:paf at cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 5:27 AM To: Jim Reid Cc: Richard Shockey; RIPE ENUM WG; cooperation-wg at ripe.net Subject: Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM On 2 jun 2011, at 11.17, Jim Reid wrote: > On 2 Jun 2011, at 09:07, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: > >> Only regulation can unlock this situation. That forces E.164 holders to either have a DNS that people can enter whatever they want, or let third parties run DNS for the E.164 numbers in question. > > True. But, playing Devil's Advocate, why would a regulator want to intervene? >From a competition point of view. The question is of course if the E.164 is to be used for other services than voice. If so, without unbundling of E.164 from the (one) provider of services, only the provider of the voice service that the E.164 is tied to can also provide other services (like video conferencing, SIP etc). It is completely up to the regulators what kind of competition and open market they want. > I expect they'd feel there was no point because the market has already made its decision about public ENUM. That would also get them off the hook for regulatory oversight of the Tier-1 delegation and name space: registry contract, codes of conduct, SLAs, etc. If you were the regulator, what path would you choose? :-) I would immediately require the provider that is tied to the E.164 to 1. Run DNS/ENUM for the numbers they provide services for 2. Give the ability for the user of the E.164 to say what URIs the NAPTRs for the E.164 should refer to 3. As alternative to 1+2, give the ability for the user of the E.164 to run DNS themselves (directly or indirectly at a third party DNS provider) 4. Require the ones that run the LNP database (or equivalent) to expose the content via ENUM It is serious now. Either E.164 numbers will never again be used, and will die a slow death, or it will be used also in the future. It is up to the regulator. Patrik From john+ietf at jck.com Thu Jun 2 17:47:47 2011 From: john+ietf at jck.com (John Klensin) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:47:47 -0400 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Re: [enum-wg] market potential/future for public ENUM In-Reply-To: <3CA8E5E1-2746-4F71-8B28-899D922A172F@cisco.com> References: <007101cc2051$2ce162f0$86a428d0$@fccn.pt> <4DE660E0.6050009@nic.at> <4A5789F9-51C7-4D94-A830-03D4A784F67F@rfc1035.com> <00af01cc207f$6a408350$3ec189f0$@us> <0B2548D3-D7DF-4A79-B9AE-CFF69EC1D914@cisco.com> <489DDB20-84B4-47C6-9932-13F2CE3B30D3@cisco.com> <005401cc2137$73962780$5ac27680$@us> <3CA8E5E1-2746-4F71-8B28-899D922A172F@cisco.com> Message-ID: <0EB6667556930F7D18916568@PST.JCK.COM> --On Thursday, June 02, 2011 17:18 +0200 Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: > On 2 jun 2011, at 17.12, Richard Shockey wrote: > >> Patrik is right. It really is a competition issue. What I'm >> sure of is that E.164 is NOT going away anytime soon despite >> what our IETF colleagues think. > > It is going away from the minds of people. People have the > E.164 in their address books etc, and even though E.164 is > used for the actual dialing, it is less and less important > what the number is, that you can keep your number etc. > > It is there in some vcard that you pass around, and it could > as well include a SIP address or whatever. > > The importance is fast going away. >... > People invent new services, and then the question is what > identifier one should use. > > Incumbents that do have E.164 numbers of course want to use > them. > > Others do not want to use E.164 numbers. >... This is, of course, consistent with another industry trend, even in the E.164 PSTN and closely-related spaces. A few decades ago, people typically had two phone numbers: "work" and "home". The second was often shared (e.g., with other family members); the first one might be (with coworkers or a main switchboard). Now we've got multiple numbers associated with different media (a mobile phone or two), services (PSTN and VoIP and fax), sometimes numbers in different countries or areas to save callers toll charges, and so on. And, of course, there are other services -- e.g., email, IM, non-E.164-VoIP services -- that don't normally use E.164 numbers at all. If a correspondent has more than a handful of contact point identities, it becomes rapidly clear that one wants to reach a particular person or function, not a long-obsolete surrogate for a copper pair and whomever happens to be standing close to its terminal. In the current world, E.164-style numbers have exactly one major user advantage over other types of identifiers and that is that all-numeric strings survive internationalization with far less trouble and confusion than alphanumeric identifiers. Other than that, the competition comments apply -- all of the advantages go to the incumbent holders of those numbers and, perhaps, the manufacturers of older-style terminals (those that, unlike the more common devices Patrik mentions, don't support address books). If someone asked me where to make a big investment in the hope of seeing a large ROI these days, it wouldn't be in E.164 numbers, especially public-tree ones. The opportunity might have been there for a while to make them really useful, but a variety of factors and institutions conspired to let that window close by trying to hold on to old, PSTN-dominated, ways of doing things. john From maria.hall at enterprise.ministry.se Thu Jun 30 15:47:28 2011 From: maria.hall at enterprise.ministry.se (maria.hall at enterprise.ministry.se) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:47:28 +0200 Subject: [cooperation-wg] Minutes Cooperation WG 4 May 2011 Message-ID: Cooperation WG Wednesday, 4 May 2011 ? 14:00 Co-Chair Maria H?ll introduced the agenda. The minutes of the previous Cooperation WG session were approved. B. Internet Intermediaries ? Moderators: Paul Rendek, Patrik F?ltstr?m - Introduction: Patrik F?ltstr?m - Internet Intermediaries - The human rights perspective - Striking a balance between integrity/neutrality, law enforcement, business Niall O?Reilly noted the importance of understanding how these three factors (neutrality, law enforcement and business) affect each other, and that the ?best? balance between them may favour two out of three. Patrik agreed that this was an important calculation, but one that is not widely enough discussed. Benedikt Stokkeland noted that there is a need for regulation in some areas that is going unmet. He cited the example of ADSL providers providing telephone services over ADSL, the reliability of which means it cannot be a replacement for a standard telephone in an emergency situation. He noted that ?Responsibility? is another axis that conflicts with the money-making axis - there is a need to ensure people can?t be sold something dangerous to them. Olaf Kolkman suggested that ?Public benefit? is a plane that cuts through this multi-plane structure in Patrik?s presentation. He also noted that in the non-Internet space, much experience has already been gained in balancing law enforcement and freedom/openness. In terms of regulation, there is a need to make available technology that is of public benefit in the long-term, and this should contribute to decision-making. Jim Reid argued that ?Public benefit? can mean many things ? RIPE may differ with the Chinese Government on what is constitutes ?public benefit?. He also noted that there are additional dimensions added to the calculation by ?alliances? between those different positions, and cited the UK, where ISPs challenged a law to make ISPs enforce laws, a decision based on their own business case, rather than in the interests of ?freedom?. Patrik added that different definitions of ?lawful? around the world also pose a problem. Wout de Natris suggested that this discussion demonstrates that all stakeholders are still learning how to work together, but that this cooperation will be vital in ensuring that when there is a crisis, governments do not ?panic? in responding. Constanze B?rger emphasised the need for awareness, and suggested that governments have a responsibility to ensure that the freedom of the Internet is not abused, but that regulation may not be the best tool for this. Patrik F?ltstr?m noted the lack of harmonization of positions even within governments, and that often, within a government, there is one group talking about opennesss and another group talking about cybercrime issues, each coming to different conclusions for Internet policy. Maria H?ll asked whether it is actually desirable to have a different legal framework for the online world. Edmund Juskevicius, of Industry Canada, noted that the Internet tends to work pretty well most of the time, and asked how has this sort of cooperation been done up to this point. Patrik noted that there has been work done in some areas from an EU regulatory perspective, but there has been a more general lack of focus, and this is now starting to change. Paul Rendek also noted the greater interest being taken by international organisations like the OECD, with whom the RIPE NCC is working as part of the Internet Technical Advisory Committee. Malcolm Hutty highlighted the importance of government participation in developing cooperative relationships, and noted that this has often been lacking. In terms of the larger question of liability, he noted that there are people who break laws, through content or activity, and people want that stopped, and that this situation raises certain questions: what is the mechanism for doing this? If it is through intermediaries, what are the checks? Can private sector intermediaries act as law enforcement agencies, that is call in evidence, witnesses etc.? While such a solution may look attractive to stakeholders dealing with a large number of complaints, it would mean a very different system of justice for the online world. It is government?s role to create these definitions and balance the needs of law enforcement agencies against citizens? rights. Malcolm suggested that at this point, governments are only hearing from the complainants, and they need to take a more balanced view on such issues. Niall O?Reilly emphasised that it is governments that must face this responsibility and that there must be some kind of evidence-based review. He noted that in terms of the Internet, it will be impossible to predict the results of new policies without some kind of evidence-based review and discussion. Aleksi Suhonen highlighted the case of Finland?s child porn filter and the unforeseen consequences of this policy, which can serve as a warning case. He also noted that many operators are multi-national and therefore need to navigate different, often competing legislations, which can be very difficult. Toomas Lepik noted that the Palestinian government would like to turn off some Autonomous Systems from the routing path. Constanze B?rger argued that it is necessary to discuss these issues, and that the Internet poses real challenges in terms of borders, self-regulation and democracy. She noted that laws are not the only solution, and that government needs to look to other sectors for solutions as well. C. Update on European Union Activities: Data Retention Directive ? Patrik F?ltstr?m Jochem de Ruig of the RIPE NCC asked about law enforcement and data retention, and noted that law enforcement agencies (LEAs) have concerns regarding IPv6 and the logs that ISPs keep regarding assignments and allocations. Patrik noted that the first issue knowing which ISP is using which IP address, which comes back to the quality of the RIPE Database. He pointed out that some parties have argued we need something other than RIR databases, and for this reason he is wary of making changes to policy that will affect data quality in the RIR databases. If you find the ISP, the issue is then what is the responsibility of the ISP? At the moment, most existing regulation says that the ISP must know who had which IP address at a given time. It was noted that there are often different rules for IP, cell and fixed-line telephony, and this is problematic. Maria H?ll and Patrik F?ltstr?m noted that Sweden has made a proposal (not implemented) that is technology neutral, but this is not reflected in the Directive. Patrik believes, though, that the people working on this in the Commission would like the revised Directive to be technology neutral. European Critical Infrastructure Directive ? Kurt Erik Lindqvist, Chris Buckridge Kurt Erik (Kurtis) Lindqvist and Chris Buckridge presented a brief summary of the discussions currently going on around the revision of the European Critical Infrastructure Directive, and the possibility that it will be expanded to cover the ICT sector. Leo Vegoda asked if the Directive intended to apply to organisations based in EU. Kurtis responded that it was his understanding that the Directive targets physical assets rather than organisations. Maria asked, given the closed nature of the EC discussions to date, whether there is a problem in terms of lack of information flowing between the different stakeholder groups. Kurtis acknowledged that an open discussion such as would happen at a RIPE Meeting would be preferable, but that it is a positive step that the Commission has reached out and invited a wide range of industry and technical community representatives to contribute to the discussion. Kurtis also gave a brief account of the recent critical infrastructure discussions held in Hungary, and the joint EU-US work that is being done. Jaap Akkerhuis noted that while the Directive talks about cross-border issues, there is a feeling that national telco industries don't talk to each other and are isolated. He also noted that for most telcos, borders don't really exist apart from regulation. Kurtis noted that the point of the work in this area is that physical assets clearly affect more than one country. While the industry can route around many borders and obstacles, however, the cable infrastructure demonstrates that there are limits to this. He noted that the Directive talks about infrastructure that affects more than 2 member states D. Update on Council of Europe Activities ? Wolfgang Kleinw?chter Chris Buckridge gave a quick update on the work being done by in the Council of Europe on a set of Principles for Internet Governance, particularly the conference held in April that brought together a wide range of stakeholders to discuss the issue. This work is ongoing. Maria H?ll commended the important work being done by the Council of Europe. E. CSTD WG Update ? Nurani Nimpuno Nurani Nimpuno provided an overview of the work being done in the Working Group convened by the UN?s Commission on Science and Technology for Development (CSTD) to examine ways to improve the IGF. While initially composed only of government representatives, there was a concerted push for greater multistakeholder involvement, and Nurani was selected as one of the five technical community representatives. Nurani noted that the initial meeting turned out to not be very substantive, though it was clear that there are very diverging views on the issues. A second meeting in Geneva also failed to produce a report, and the WG?s report will now be written by the Chair. The technical community representatives have stated their objection to this outcome, as it places this back in the hands of Member States alone. Nurani noted that the technical and business communities have failed to some extent in reaching out to the civil society stakeholders, and that better coordination between these groups will be important moving forward. Maria H?ll noted that this whole process is an attempt to make the multistakeholder model work on a global level. Constanze B?rger noted that it was difficult to convince some in government of the value of participating in the IGF, but noted that the regional and national IGFs can be very useful in this regard. Nurani agree on the need to more effectively demonstrate the value of the IGF to all stakeholders. F. ICANN GAC Update - Maria H?ll Maria H?ll gave an update on the activities of the ICANN Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC), noting that has grown to 109 members. The issue of new gTLDs has been the major area of activity for the GAC over recent months, and the GAC has been working with the Board and community to resolve a range of issues identified in a ?Scorecard?. Z. AOB Steve Nash noted that while there has clearly a lot of work going on in this area, the working group?s mailing list has been virtually silent, and it would be great to see more discussion on the list. Maria agreed, and noted the Working Group Co-Chairs will be working to improve this over the coming weeks and months. Wout de Natris pointed out that few government people were in attendance, and that the technical community members need to take these specific topics to their relevant government people and challenge them to take part. He also noted, in response to an earlier point from Malcolm Hutty, that the Internet poses one significant difference for law enforcement to their usual work: when you track someone down on the Internet, you may have to go to addresses where the actual perpetrator isn?t there, only a hosting provider with a command-and-control centre for that network. This has major implications for obtaining evidence, and establishing a framework for how this works is a role for government and law enforcement. Jim Reid noted that it is clear that government representatives are not taking part in RIPE Meetings in great numbers, and it might be necessary to change tack. He suggested that it might be useful for more community members to take part in the RIPE NCC Roundtable Meetings. Paul Rendek thanked Jim for the suggestion. He noted that while the Roundtable Meetings are deliberately closed, to facilitate government participation, it may be useful to invite more community members to contribute, and the RIPE NCC will look into this option. Maria H?ll closed the meeting. Best, Patrik and Maria F?r milj?ns skull ? skriv inte ut detta meddelande i on?dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: