[cooperation-wg] Notes Cooperation Working Group, Thursday 30 Oct 2008, Dubai

Cooperation Working Group
Thursday, 30 October 2008, Dubai

A. Administrative Matters
Patrik Fältström introduced himself as Chair for this meeting, as the 
two official Co-Chairs were unable to attend RIPE 57.

He also noted some confusion about the name of the Jabber room.

Two items were added to the agenda, under the A.O.B. item. These were 
presentations by Daniel Karrenberg and Jim Reid, and were added under 
A.O.B. as the Co-Chairs had already approved the existing agenda.

Malcolm Hutty noted the closure of the Enhanced Cooperation Task 
Force, and its instruction for the Cooperation Working Group to 
maintain the document produced by the task force. Discussion of this 
matter was added as a third item under A.O.B.

The participants in the room introduced themselves over the microphone.

B. Open Comment/Review of Working Group Charter
The Chair read out the charter in its current form.

The participants endorsed the charter.

C. Addressing the Rise of Criminal Service Providers - Paul Hoare, 
Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA)
The speaker discussed the issue of criminal activity by Internet 
Service Providers and how it might be policed.

Jim Reid raise a question about whether criminal ISPs could have 
their RIPE NCC membership terminated as a form of sanction, and how 
effective this would be as a deterrence, given that the ISP would 
already have the IP resources. Paul agreed that there remain issues, 
but that the RIPE NCC could remove reverse DNS services, and the 
ranges could be handed to a group such as a white-hat organisation 
who could also announce the ranges, which would degrade the 
connectivity of the criminal ISP. Jim also noted that there the 
routing database and the deployment of routing security could be a 
two-way street, in that the original holder (the criminal ISP) might 
have a certificate associated with those resources, making it 
difficult to disrupt their connectivity. Paul agreed that there were 
many issues, and encouraged anyone with further suggestions to 
contact him, noting that the RIPE NCC could provide his contact 
details. He also noted that if the Internet community could regulate 
this area successfully, it might remove the need or temptation for 
government to step in and regulate.

Daniel Karrenberg noted the term "crime caused by the Internet", and 
the danger of thinking that by fixing the Internet we can fix crime, 
whereas the Internet is simply a tool for certain crimes because it 
has enormous reach, it can rapidly disseminate material throughout 
the world and because it transcends jurisdictions. Technical 
solutions can only be a small part of a larger strategy in fighting 
crime. Paul agreed, noting that the Internet, like any technological 
development, presents new opportunities to criminals and we should 
try to restrict these opportunities.

Daniel noted that the RIPE NCC's power is limited in terms of 
physically preventing criminal ISPs from using the Internet, but that 
this forum should be used to reach out to all ISPs, who collectively 
have the means to disable these rogue ISPs. He also noted that the 
RIPE NCC cannot be judge and executioner at the same time, but noted 
that SOCA is working with the Dutch law enforcement community in 
sorting this out. He emphasised that there should not be a focus on 
the RIPE NCC as the head of a hierarchical structure. Paul agreed and 
reiterated that he is primarily seeking suggestions and solutions.

Jaap Akerhuis noted that in the domain name business there are also 
moves to have registries take down rogue sites, but that there is not 
a lot that can be done. Paul noted the large number of countries in 
the RIPE community and that gaining consensus from all these 
countries is difficult. There are issues of where free speech ends 
and crime begins. He reiterated the problems of cross-jurisdictional 
crime, though there are some crimes, such as pedophilia, that are 
widely accepted. He noted that there is no final solution to remove 
crime from the Internet, but that slowing them down is still an 
important goal.

Malcolm Hutty noted that, supposing RIPE NCC could knock an ISP off 
the network, what kind of cooperation and approval would be necessary 
to obtain from national authorities in the relevant territory. He 
noted that several years ago UK CEOs were being arrested in the USA 
for gambling sites that were situated in the UK, and that there would 
be similar issues between countries within the RIPE region. Paul 
noted that in many cases SOCA would simply work with authorities in 
the relevant country, by approaching them and asking them to do 
something themselves.

D. Update on RIPE NCC Outreach Activities
RIPE NCC Government Roundtable Meeting, ICANN GAC and IGF 2008 
preparations.

There was no discussion.

E. IPv6: What Should Governments Do? Patrik Fältström
Patrik noted that the current deployment of IPv6 is not going well, 
what can be done about this and the role that government can play in 
that.

There was no discussion.

Z. A.O.B./Q&A Session

Daniel Karrenberg – Presentation from the Address Policy Working 
Group on Address Depletion Scenarios
Daniel pointed the WG to some work being done in the Address Policy 
WG on policies about the end of IPv4. He asked whether governments 
were concerned about the scenarios that were raised in his presentation.

Jim Reid noted that in terms of "perceived unfairness", some 
governments in the region are actually saying that there is already 
unfairness in the distribution of IP addresses.

Nurani Nimpuno noted that there are policy proposals in the works 
that address these issues in various ways, and that governments 
should be aware that this is not an issue that is being neglected. 
Daniel agreed that there are proposals that address part of this 
issue, but not all of it.

Jim Reid - NTIA Open Consultation About Signing of the Root - Report 
on Work Being Done in the DNS Working Group
Jim noted that the US Department of Commerce has asked for comments 
about signing the DNS root zone, and the DNS Working Group is 
preparing a statement, as they have in the past pushed for this. The 
WG has nearly completed this statement, and hopes to present it at 
the Closing Plenary, and that this can then be accepted as a RIPE 
community statement. It states basically that this is about the 
authenticity of the data in the DNS root, not about some overt form 
of control.

There was no discussion.

Enhanced Cooperation Task Force Document – What To Do?
Malcolm noted that the document created by the Enhanced Cooperation 
Task Force (EC TF) consists of two parts, one recommending the 
establishment of this Working Group, the other explaining how the 
RIPE community works, what bottom-up governance is and why we have 
these processes in place. It is essentially a communications 
document. It was decided that a statement from the RIPE community to 
this effect would be useful to underpin the current system. It is now 
hoped that this document could go through the appropriate RIPE PDP 
steps to become a RIPE Document.

Rob Bokzijl noted that there is no need for any further formalities 
as the document has gone through the appropriate RIPE Task Force 
steps. Paul Rendek noted that any revisions should be showcased in 
this Working Group.

Action point: The RIPE NCC is directed to create a new RIPE Document 
and place it on the WG website. Malcolm is appointed as the contact 
for any final edits.


Meeting closed.



/Maria
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