From furry13 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 10:40:59 2014 From: furry13 at gmail.com (Jen Linkova) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 10:40:59 +0200 Subject: [bcop] BCOP presentation at RIPE meeting in Warsaw In-Reply-To: <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> References: <53467548.9050407@go6.si> <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> Message-ID: On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Jan Zorz @ go6.si wrote: >> 4) Code 112 (v4 + broken Ipv6) >> >> - can we show the process as a flowchart? if-then-else? > > > that's a bit hard one... do we have anybody specialized in flowcharts here? As soon as we describe the procedure in plain text more clearly, it would be relatively easy to add a flowchart (I could do it). IMHO if we could not draw a flowchart based on the text, it means that troubleshooting steps are not defined clear enough :) So let's concentrate on the defining the procedure and then I'll add a flow chart. > I think this are all good suggestions. We'll go through them during our > authosr edit cycle meeting, probably during the IETF meeting in Toronto. I'd be happy to join. >> IMHO a section should be added which explains what kind of information >> should be collected for an escalation. I'd suggest: >> - Ipv4 and Ipv6 traceroute; >> - ifconfig output >> - routing table output >> - maybe packet capture for the session which is having issues. > > > I think this is asking a bit too much to a first level helpdesk employee... > I don't know... Packet capture might be tricky as the user machine might not have any sniffer installed. However I believe we could expect even first level support engineer to be able to run the well-defined set of commands (such as traceroute, netstat and ifconfig) - they don't need to understand the output, just provide it while escalating. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From jan at go6.si Tue Jun 10 08:57:26 2014 From: jan at go6.si (Jan Zorz @ go6.si) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 08:57:26 +0200 Subject: [bcop] BCOP presentation at RIPE meeting in Warsaw In-Reply-To: References: <53467548.9050407@go6.si> <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> Message-ID: <5396AC56.3030909@go6.si> On 05/06/14 10:40, Jen Linkova wrote: > On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Jan Zorz @ go6.si wrote: >>> 4) Code 112 (v4 + broken Ipv6) >>> >>> - can we show the process as a flowchart? if-then-else? >> >> >> that's a bit hard one... do we have anybody specialized in flowcharts here? > > As soon as we describe the procedure in plain text more clearly, it > would be relatively easy > to add a flowchart (I could do it). So we need to address all the comments first and make the text more clear before moving forward with the flowchart? > IMHO if we could not draw a > flowchart based on the text, it means that > troubleshooting steps are not defined clear enough :) > So let's concentrate on the defining the procedure and then I'll add a > flow chart. thnx! > >> I think this are all good suggestions. We'll go through them during our >> authosr edit cycle meeting, probably during the IETF meeting in Toronto. > > I'd be happy to join. ok, count yourself in ;) > >>> IMHO a section should be added which explains what kind of information >>> should be collected for an escalation. I'd suggest: >>> - Ipv4 and Ipv6 traceroute; >>> - ifconfig output >>> - routing table output >>> - maybe packet capture for the session which is having issues. >> >> >> I think this is asking a bit too much to a first level helpdesk employee... >> I don't know... > > Packet capture might be tricky as the user machine might not have any > sniffer installed. > However I believe we could expect even first level support engineer to > be able to run > the well-defined set of commands (such as traceroute, netstat and > ifconfig) - they don't need to > understand the output, just provide it while escalating. > What do others think here? What is your experience with helpdesks and their ability to perform this stuff? Cheers, Jan From bs at stepladder-it.com Tue Jun 10 14:11:25 2014 From: bs at stepladder-it.com (Benedikt Stockebrand) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:11:25 +0000 Subject: [bcop] [ipv6-wg] BCOP presentation at RIPE meeting in Warsaw In-Reply-To: <5396AC56.3030909@go6.si> (Jan Zorz's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2014 08:57:26 +0200") References: <53467548.9050407@go6.si> <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> <5396AC56.3030909@go6.si> Message-ID: <87sindezgy.fsf@stepladder-it.com> Hi Jan and lists, "Jan Zorz @ go6.si" writes: > On 05/06/14 10:40, Jen Linkova wrote: >>> I think this is asking a bit too much to a first level helpdesk employee... >>> I don't know... >> >> Packet capture might be tricky as the user machine might not have any >> sniffer installed. >> However I believe we could expect even first level support engineer to >> be able to run >> the well-defined set of commands (such as traceroute, netstat and >> ifconfig) - they don't need to >> understand the output, just provide it while escalating. >> > > What do others think here? What is your experience with helpdesks and > their ability to perform this stuff? that really depends. I've seen first level supporters who wouldn't need this at such a level because they'd know how to do that anyway, and I've seen ones who would read whatever a flowchart says without understanding a single word. But what's worrying me more is if we can actually come up with a one-size-fits-all flowchart that is actually any use to anybody. It might well be that this turns out a completely futile exercise, but the only way to find that out is to actually give it a try. Cheers, Benedikt -- Benedikt Stockebrand, Stepladder IT Training+Consulting Dipl.-Inform. http://www.stepladder-it.com/ Business Grade IPv6 --- Consulting, Training, Projects BIVBlog---Benedikt's IT Video Blog: http://www.stepladder-it.com/bivblog/ From furry13 at gmail.com Tue Jun 10 16:50:36 2014 From: furry13 at gmail.com (Jen Linkova) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 16:50:36 +0200 Subject: [bcop] [ipv6-wg] BCOP presentation at RIPE meeting in Warsaw In-Reply-To: <87sindezgy.fsf@stepladder-it.com> References: <53467548.9050407@go6.si> <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> <5396AC56.3030909@go6.si> <87sindezgy.fsf@stepladder-it.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Benedikt Stockebrand wrote:. >>> However I believe we could expect even first level support engineer to >>> be able to run >>> the well-defined set of commands (such as traceroute, netstat and >>> ifconfig) - they don't need to >>> understand the output, just provide it while escalating. >>> >> >> What do others think here? What is your experience with helpdesks and >> their ability to perform this stuff? > > that really depends. I've seen first level supporters who wouldn't need > this at such a level because they'd know how to do that anyway My understanding they are not a target audience of this document ;) >and I've > seen ones who would read whatever a flowchart says without understanding > a single word. That's why I'd like to make sure that the troubleshooting procedure in this document could be presented as a flow chart and all possible scenarios are covered (even as 'then escalate'), so first-level support always know what to do. Re: collecting additional information: my point here is that when X-level support is escalating to X+1 level, it's always a good idea to have a well-defined list of what information should be collected and provided with an escalation request (like attaching 'show tech' to Cisco TAC request :)) It does not mean that escalating engineer has to understand every single word in the data they are collecting and it does not mean that the collected information would necessary contain everything needed to solve the case. The goal is to cover some common cases (and if somebody would complain to me about poor v[46] connectivity from their workstation I personally would ask for ifconfig, netstat and traceroute before doing anything else ;) > > But what's worrying me more is if we can actually come up with a > one-size-fits-all flowchart that is actually any use to anybody. I'm sure we can not do 'one-size-fits-all' thing but we could provide a kind of template which could be customized. >It might well be that this turns out a completely futile exercise, but the > only way to find that out is to actually give it a try. I agree. If I remember correctly, Ragnar mentioned during v6 WG session that his helpdesk was pretty happy with this document. So I believe we should get the draft to a slightly better state and let people try it in their networks. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From bs at stepladder-it.com Tue Jun 10 21:52:43 2014 From: bs at stepladder-it.com (Benedikt Stockebrand) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:52:43 +0000 Subject: [bcop] [ipv6-wg] BCOP presentation at RIPE meeting in Warsaw In-Reply-To: (Jen Linkova's message of "Tue, 10 Jun 2014 16:50:36 +0200") References: <53467548.9050407@go6.si> <537DC4DD.5020907@go6.si> <5396AC56.3030909@go6.si> <87sindezgy.fsf@stepladder-it.com> Message-ID: <87k38otud0.fsf@stepladder-it.com> Hi Jen and list, Jen Linkova writes: >> that really depends. I've seen first level supporters who wouldn't need >> this at such a level because they'd know how to do that anyway > > My understanding they are not a target audience of this document ;) right---but they might still feel offended because they think we think they are idiots:-) >> But what's worrying me more is if we can actually come up with a >> one-size-fits-all flowchart that is actually any use to anybody. > > I'm sure we can not do 'one-size-fits-all' thing but we could provide > a kind of template which could be customized. Fair enough, only then we should make absolutely that this is clearly stated in a prominent way. >>It might well be that this turns out a completely futile exercise, but the >> only way to find that out is to actually give it a try. > > I agree. If I remember correctly, Ragnar mentioned during v6 WG > session that his helpdesk > was pretty happy with this document. So I believe we should get the > draft to a slightly better state and > let people try it in their networks. Well, forget about Ragnar's crowd. They are actually doing Gigabit fiber to people's homes in some remote corner of Norway while Deutsche Telekom and their resellers only gets me 10 Mbit/s DSL downstream in downtown Frankfurt; I consider that pretty strong indication that their first level support is about two orders of magnitude better than the international average as well:-) Cheers, Benedikt -- Benedikt Stockebrand, Stepladder IT Training+Consulting Dipl.-Inform. http://www.stepladder-it.com/ Business Grade IPv6 --- Consulting, Training, Projects BIVBlog---Benedikt's IT Video Blog: http://www.stepladder-it.com/bivblog/