[anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Review Phase (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")

Hi Jordi,

Thank you for your feedback. I will try to address each point, please do let me know if I miss something.

I would like to start with your last comment about implementation in other RIRs, which may help clarify some of your other concerns as well.
The Impact Analysis is based on the current RIPE NCC policies and procedures. The RIPE NCC will manually follow up with the members to try and fix the incorrect details (not validated). This manual follow up generates the mentioned workload. This manual follow up may not be happening in other regions which allows for a more automated approach.


1) The current validation process expresses the RIPE NCCs understanding of policy proposal 2017-02. Our understanding was shared in the Impact Analysis at the time (the validation process was included as well) and the policy was approved based on that understanding. Our view is that the purpose of RIPE-705 is being fulfilled under the current validation process.

However, we are not claiming in this impact analysis that the out of 92.5% of the email addresses currently validated automatically, there does not exist the possibility that a certain % does not reach the intended party due to email address belonging to somebody else, an unchecked or a full mailbox, etc. This is the reason we stated on our Impact:

"If this proposed policy change reaches consensus, an improvement of the registry data is expected as more “abuse-mailbox:” attributes will be current and correct."


2) We have had only one full year validation (2019) so we can not provide accurate comparison before the end of 2020 on how has the situation has changed.

3+4) All current “abuse-mailbox:” attributes will be validated in batches.

5+6) I would like to clarify that “10 times the current level” refers to workload, not FTEs. We have not made a calculation on the exact number of FTEs needed. We only state that a significant number is expected due to the workload level.

We tried to explain in the Impact Analysis how we came up with the number ~32,000 tickets per validation round and estimated the number of tickets that would require a manual follow up (around 30% according to 2019’s figures). The number of ticket which need a manual follow up could improve over the years. However at this time the RIPE NCC can not reliably estimate it.


I hope the explanation above is helpful. Please let us know if you have any other concerns.

--
Petrit Hasani
Policy Officer
RIPE NCC





> On 20 Jul 2020, at 16:36, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Petrit,
> 
> Tks for the impact analysis!
> 
> However, I think there are some aspects not well covered.
> 
> 1) It is clear, unless you can provide stats about that, that we don't really know if the 92.5% of the automated validations check are *really* correct in the sense of being able to receive emails (due to mistakes, or on purpose), as some % may be reaching a null in-box, a mailbox that bounces because is full, a mailbox that bounces because is misconfigured, etc. As a consequence of that, the current validation is not really fulfilling the actual purpose of the RIPE-705, because "it is required to contain ... which is intended for receiving ...". If emails can't be received at least a % of the 92.5% is not being validated.
> 
> 2) Maybe I got it wrong, but I think it is important to see the progress of tickets that where needed to open in different passes of RIPE-705. It is expected that in each pass you have less and less failing abuse-c mailboxes, right? Otherwise, it will be an indication that some LIRs aren't really doing the job to comply with RIPE-705.
> 
> 3) Just to make it clear: Changing the validation period is let on-purpose, as an operational aspect to the RIPE NCC. I think it is a feature, not an issue. This also allows a slow-start, as RIPE NCC did with the implementation of RIPE-705, so it allows to avoid the extra overload indicated in the IA. May be a full year or even 1.5-2 years are needed in the first pass. Not an issue, you can accommodate the internal process to the available man power for manual follow up.
> 
> 4) The proposal doesn't specify that you need to run all the validations on the same day. I expect the system to be smart, and for example consider an even split of validations per day, which you can tune, depending on what happened every previous week, so not to overload the resources needed for manual follow up. This is also in line which 3 above, and I understand is also the way RIPE-705 was implemented (at least initially).
> 
> 5) I really feel that expecting that 32.000 tickets for each round will be created is very exaggerated. If that's the case, that will probe my point 1 above and indicate that we have a real problem. Even if that's the case, a smart slow-start process will not require 10 times the actual FTEs vs the current level. Again, it is important to insist that it should be done smartly and, in that sense,  it is a huge mistake, in my opinion, not considering it in the IA, because it provides a very biased view.
> 
> 6) Even if it is the case that in the first round we have 32.000 tickets, this is temporary, because following years will not be the same, otherwise, we have a different kind of problem with policy compliance.
> 
> One possible indication of if this really creates so much trouble, even if all the validations are sent on the same "day", will be to ask to APNIC, which already implemented a much stricter proposal a year ago, if I recall correctly. I understand that it is just an indication, different culture, NIR there/no here, etc., etc. LACNIC is on their way as well, but I don't know when it will be implemented yet.
> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
> 
> 
> 
> El 20/7/20 15:08, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Petrit Hasani" <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net en nombre de phasani at ripe.net> escribió:
> 
>    Dear colleagues,
> 
>    Policy proposal 2019-04, "Validation of "abuse-mailbox"", is now in the Review Phase.
> 
>    This proposal aims to have the RIPE NCC validate "abuse-c:” information more often and introduces a new validation process.
> 
>    The RIPE NCC has prepared an impact analysis to support the community’s discussion.
> 
>    You can find the proposal and impact analysis at:
>    https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04
>    https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04#impact-analysis
> 
>    And the draft documents at:
>    https://www.ripe.net/participate/policies/proposals/2019-04/draft
> 
>    As per the RIPE Policy Development Process (PDP), the purpose of this four week Review Phase is to continue discussion of the proposal, taking the impact analysis into consideration, and to review the full draft RIPE Policy Document.
> 
>    At the end of the Review Phase, the working group chairs will determine whether the WG has reached rough consensus. It is therefore important to provide your opinion, even if it is simply a restatement of your input from the previous phase.
> 
>    We encourage you to read the proposal, impact analysis and draft document and send any comments to <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> before 18 August 2020.
> 
>    Kind regards,
> 
>    --
>    Petrit Hasani
>    Policy Officer
>    RIPE NCC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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