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[ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

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Hans Petter Holen

2020-06-04 12:08:05 CET

To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide
financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like
community input.

The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at
https://ripe80.ripe.net/archives/video/383/

In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs,
Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs
of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for
instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair
can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC.
This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and
accommodation.

The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018
after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board
through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also
for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough
EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.

The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found
at:

https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support

If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request
to the RIPE NCC for such support.

Hans Petter Holen
ad-interim RIPE  Chair

Sasha Romijn

2020-06-04 12:47:29 CET

Hello,

I am strongly in favour of this proposal. Thank you for writing it.

The ability to be a WG chair should not be constrained by wealth, or at least as little as possible.
And given the constraints in the proposal, I don’t see any significant potential for some kind of abuse.

Sasha 

> On 4 Jun 2020, at 12:08, Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net> wrote:
> 
> 
> To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like community input.
> 
> The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at https://ripe80.ripe.net/archives/video/383/  
> 
> In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs, Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC. This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and accommodation.
> 
> The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure. 
> 
> The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:
> 
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support 
> 
> If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.
> 
> Hans Petter Holen
> ad-interim RIPE  Chair
> 
> 

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Michele Neylon

2020-06-04 12:56:45 CET

I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy it could be to abuse.

The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?

I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a few people who were vocally opposed to it.

Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG

I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is obviously the wrong way around.

So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person having some kind of track record?

With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.

However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to existing community members, so setting some criteria around past participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.

Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com
https://blacknight.blog /
http://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020


To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like community input.

The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at https://ripe80.ripe.net/archives/video/383/

In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs, Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC. This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and accommodation.

The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.

The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:

https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support

If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

Hans Petter Holen
ad-interim RIPE  Chair


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Brian Nisbet

2020-06-04 13:06:45 CET

All,

Two things on this, both with my "Internet citizen and NCC Member" hat firmly on.

First off, I'm in favour of the change, I think this is very welcome.

Secondly, I would be against this having any requirements other than someone being a WG Co-Chair. While there is work to be done there, as HPH discussed at RIPE80, tying it into this proposal would be wrong. The right point to discuss things like participation etc. is when the Co-Chair is being chosen. It would be awful if a WG chose someone and then a different regulation said that they couldn't avail of this subsidy.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian Nisbet
Service Operations Manager
HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
+35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie www.heanet.ie
Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

________________________________________
From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 11:56
To: hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy it could be to abuse.

The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?

I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a few people who were vocally opposed to it.

Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG

I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is obviously the wrong way around.

So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person having some kind of track record?

With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.

However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to existing community members, so setting some criteria around past participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.

Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com
https://blacknight.blog /
http://ceo.hosting/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020


To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like community input.

The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at https://ripe80.ripe.net/archives/video/383/

In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs, Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC. This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and accommodation.

The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.

The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:

https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support

If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

Hans Petter Holen
ad-interim RIPE  Chair



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Michele Neylon

2020-06-04 13:11:17 CET

Brian

So you think the WG's own mechanisms would be enough to police my concern?

If so that works for me.

Regards

Michele, who is an incredible pessimist at times

--
Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://www.blacknight.com
https://blacknight.blog /

http://ceo.hosting/

Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

-------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

On 04/06/2020, 12:06, "Brian Nisbet" <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:

    All,

    Two things on this, both with my "Internet citizen and NCC Member" hat firmly on.

    First off, I'm in favour of the change, I think this is very welcome.

    Secondly, I would be against this having any requirements other than someone being a WG Co-Chair. While there is work to be done there, as HPH discussed at RIPE80, tying it into this proposal would be wrong. The right point to discuss things like participation etc. is when the Co-Chair is being chosen. It would be awful if a WG chose someone and then a different regulation said that they couldn't avail of this subsidy.

    Thanks,

    Brian

    Brian Nisbet
    Service Operations Manager
    HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
    1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
    +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie www.heanet.ie
    Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

    ________________________________________
    From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
    Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 11:56
    To: hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
    Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

    CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

    I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy it could be to abuse.

    The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?

    I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a few people who were vocally opposed to it.

    Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG

    I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is obviously the wrong way around.

    So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person having some kind of track record?

    With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.

    However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to existing community members, so setting some criteria around past participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.

    Regards

    Michele


    --
    Mr Michele Neylon
    Blacknight Solutions
    Hosting, Colocation & Domains
    https://www.blacknight.com
    https://blacknight.blog /
    http://ceo.hosting/
    Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
    Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
    -------------------------------
    Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

    From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
    Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
    Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
    To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
    Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020


    To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like community input.

    The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at https://ripe80.ripe.net/archives/video/383/

    In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs, Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC. This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and accommodation.

    The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.

    The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:

    https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support

    If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

    Hans Petter Holen
    ad-interim RIPE  Chair



User Image

Brian Nisbet

2020-06-04 13:16:48 CET

Yes, I think the WGs have to be allowed to choose their own Co-Chairs, under whatever that method is (separate discussion) and if those Co-Chairs abuse something like this, then we have to trust that it will be dealt with.

Whether this is soft, such as a quiet conversation from peers or others, or the WG raising it and de-selecting the Co-Chair, then so be it.

Brian

Brian Nisbet
Service Operations Manager
HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
+35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie www.heanet.ie
Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

________________________________________
From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 12:11
To: Brian Nisbet; hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.


Brian

So you think the WG's own mechanisms would be enough to police my concern?

If so that works for me.

Regards

Michele, who is an incredible pessimist at times

--
Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0 /

https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0

Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

-------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

On 04/06/2020, 12:06, "Brian Nisbet" <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:

    All,

    Two things on this, both with my "Internet citizen and NCC Member" hat firmly on.

    First off, I'm in favour of the change, I think this is very welcome.

    Secondly, I would be against this having any requirements other than someone being a WG Co-Chair. While there is work to be done there, as HPH discussed at RIPE80, tying it into this proposal would be wrong. The right point to discuss things like participation etc. is when the Co-Chair is being chosen. It would be awful if a WG chose someone and then a different regulation said that they couldn't avail of this subsidy.

    Thanks,

    Brian

    Brian Nisbet
    Service Operations Manager
    HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
    1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
    +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heanet.ie%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=kwbLEG%2Byk409Y8%2BdOrc9j28l7%2FESb6zXFMi32SqTV2A%3D&reserved=0
    Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270

    ________________________________________
    From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
    Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 11:56
    To: hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
    Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

    CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe.

    I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy it could be to abuse.

    The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?

    I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a few people who were vocally opposed to it.

    Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG

    I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is obviously the wrong way around.

    So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person having some kind of track record?

    With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.

    However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to existing community members, so setting some criteria around past participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.

    Regards

    Michele


    --
    Mr Michele Neylon
    Blacknight Solutions
    Hosting, Colocation & Domains
    https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
    https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0 /
    https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0
    Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
    Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
    -------------------------------
    Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park, Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

    From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
    Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
    Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
    To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
    Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020


    To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like community input.

    The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe80.ripe.net%2Farchives%2Fvideo%2F383%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=xIyjSYiGwMWAmRsNB3kUbQl5QMq8wVfVBIxf3Vz2F4Y%3D&reserved=0

    In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs, Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC. This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and accommodation.

    The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.

    The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:

    https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fripe%2Fwg%2Fcc%2Fripe-working-group-chair-financial-support&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812332983&sdata=Ghhfow3fyTLS37x4VUymZ2W9dOYAzbvuZVFpu5HpvUA%3D&reserved=0

    If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

    Hans Petter Holen
    ad-interim RIPE  Chair



User Image

Cynthia Revström

2020-06-04 13:39:45 CET

+1 for this proposal, for many of us (including me) the main issue is not
the actual meeting fee but rather the travel and accommodation,
 and I can imagine it being the same for many WG chairs.

- Cynthia

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 1:16 PM Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:

> Yes, I think the WGs have to be allowed to choose their own Co-Chairs,
> under whatever that method is (separate discussion) and if those Co-Chairs
> abuse something like this, then we have to trust that it will be dealt with.
>
> Whether this is soft, such as a quiet conversation from peers or others,
> or the WG raising it and de-selecting the Co-Chair, then so be it.
>
> Brian
>
> Brian Nisbet
> Service Operations Manager
> HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
> 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
> +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie www.heanet.ie
> Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
> Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 12:11
> To: Brian Nisbet; hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
> Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call
> for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
> CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation.
> Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the
> sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
> Brian
>
> So you think the WG's own mechanisms would be enough to police my concern?
>
> If so that works for me.
>
> Regards
>
> Michele, who is an incredible pessimist at times
>
> --
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0
> /
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,
> Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> On 04/06/2020, 12:06, "Brian Nisbet" <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     Two things on this, both with my "Internet citizen and NCC Member" hat
> firmly on.
>
>     First off, I'm in favour of the change, I think this is very welcome.
>
>     Secondly, I would be against this having any requirements other than
> someone being a WG Co-Chair. While there is work to be done there, as HPH
> discussed at RIPE80, tying it into this proposal would be wrong. The right
> point to discuss things like participation etc. is when the Co-Chair is
> being chosen. It would be awful if a WG chose someone and then a different
> regulation said that they couldn't avail of this subsidy.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Brian
>
>     Brian Nisbet
>     Service Operations Manager
>     HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
>     1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
>     +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heanet.ie%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=kwbLEG%2Byk409Y8%2BdOrc9j28l7%2FESb6zXFMi32SqTV2A%3D&reserved=0
>     Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
>
>     ________________________________________
>     From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Michele
> Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
>     Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 11:56
>     To: hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
>     Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support
> call for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
>     CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the
> organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you
> recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>     I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy
> it could be to abuse.
>
>     The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need
> of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?
>
>     I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a
> few people who were vocally opposed to it.
>
>     Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone
> was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG
>
>     I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the
> financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is
> obviously the wrong way around.
>
>     So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person
> having some kind of track record?
>
>     With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s
> completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.
>
>     However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to
> existing community members, so setting some criteria around past
> participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Michele
>
>
>     --
>     Mr Michele Neylon
>     Blacknight Solutions
>     Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0
> /
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0
>     Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>     Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>     -------------------------------
>     Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,
> Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>     From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter
> Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
>     Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
>     Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
>     To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
>     Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call
> for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
>
>     To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to
> provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would
> like community input.
>
>     The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe80.ripe.net%2Farchives%2Fvideo%2F383%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=xIyjSYiGwMWAmRsNB3kUbQl5QMq8wVfVBIxf3Vz2F4Y%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe80.ripe.net%2Farchives%2Fvideo%2F383%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=xIyjSYiGwMWAmRsNB3kUbQl5QMq8wVfVBIxf3Vz2F4Y%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>     In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs,
> Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs
> of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for
> instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair
> can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC.
> This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and
> accommodation.
>
>     The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December
> 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board
> through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also
> for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough
> EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.
>
>     The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be
> found at:
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fripe%2Fwg%2Fcc%2Fripe-working-group-chair-financial-support&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812332983&sdata=Ghhfow3fyTLS37x4VUymZ2W9dOYAzbvuZVFpu5HpvUA%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fripe%2Fwg%2Fcc%2Fripe-working-group-chair-financial-support&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812332983&sdata=Ghhfow3fyTLS37x4VUymZ2W9dOYAzbvuZVFpu5HpvUA%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>     If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal
> request to the RIPE NCC for such support.
>
>     Hans Petter Holen
>     ad-interim RIPE  Chair
>
>
>
>
User Image

Michael Oghia

2020-06-04 13:44:27 CET

Hi everyone,

I agree as well with the proposal. Regarding Michele's relevant concerns,
could this be ameliorated by something as simple as annual reporting with a
budget/cost breakdown? This is common practice within the nonprofit world.
Moreover, we could develop guidelines about what the report should include,
and make it public to help keep everything transparent.

What do you all think, especially you Michele and Brian?

Stay safe and well,
-Michael
__________________

Michael J. Oghia | Advocacy & Engagement Manager
Global Forum for Media Development (GFMD )
Belgrade, Serbia (UTC+2) | Twitter  |
LinkedIn 
GPG: E95D 2127 0D45 77D3 4D43 4D5A E3BA 6F23 301D 7082


On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 1:16 PM Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:

> Yes, I think the WGs have to be allowed to choose their own Co-Chairs,
> under whatever that method is (separate discussion) and if those Co-Chairs
> abuse something like this, then we have to trust that it will be dealt with.
>
> Whether this is soft, such as a quiet conversation from peers or others,
> or the WG raising it and de-selecting the Co-Chair, then so be it.
>
> Brian
>
> Brian Nisbet
> Service Operations Manager
> HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
> 1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
> +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie www.heanet.ie
> Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
> Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 12:11
> To: Brian Nisbet; hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
> Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call
> for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
> CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the organisation.
> Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you recognise the
> sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
> Brian
>
> So you think the WG's own mechanisms would be enough to police my concern?
>
> If so that works for me.
>
> Regards
>
> Michele, who is an incredible pessimist at times
>
> --
> Mr Michele Neylon
>
> Blacknight Solutions
>
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0
> /
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0
>
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>
> -------------------------------
>
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,
> Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
> On 04/06/2020, 12:06, "Brian Nisbet" <brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie> wrote:
>
>     All,
>
>     Two things on this, both with my "Internet citizen and NCC Member" hat
> firmly on.
>
>     First off, I'm in favour of the change, I think this is very welcome.
>
>     Secondly, I would be against this having any requirements other than
> someone being a WG Co-Chair. While there is work to be done there, as HPH
> discussed at RIPE80, tying it into this proposal would be wrong. The right
> point to discuss things like participation etc. is when the Co-Chair is
> being chosen. It would be awful if a WG chose someone and then a different
> regulation said that they couldn't avail of this subsidy.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Brian
>
>     Brian Nisbet
>     Service Operations Manager
>     HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network
>     1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland
>     +35316609040 brian.nisbet _at_ heanet _dot_ ie
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heanet.ie%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=kwbLEG%2Byk409Y8%2BdOrc9j28l7%2FESb6zXFMi32SqTV2A%3D&reserved=0
>     Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270
>
>     ________________________________________
>     From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Michele
> Neylon - Blacknight <michele _at_ blacknight _dot_ com>
>     Sent: Thursday 4 June 2020 11:56
>     To: hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net; ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
>     Subject: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support
> call for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
>     CAUTION[External]: This email originated from outside of the
> organisation. Do not click on links or open the attachments unless you
> recognise the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>     I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy
> it could be to abuse.
>
>     The process for fellowships states that one of the criteria is “need
> of financial assistance”, but how is that decided?
>
>     I know this topic was brought up in the past and there were quite a
> few people who were vocally opposed to it.
>
>     Personally I’d agree that finances should not be a blocker if someone
> was willing to step up and commit to chairing a WG
>
>     I do, however, worry that some people could be tempted to use the
> financial support as their only motivation for being a WG chair, which is
> obviously the wrong way around.
>
>     So maybe having something in the policy  / process about the person
> having some kind of track record?
>
>     With the fellowship RIPE is looking for “fresh blood’ and it’s
> completely appropriate that the barriers be set at a particular level.
>
>     However in this instance it’s seeking to provide financial support to
> existing community members, so setting some criteria around past
> participation wouldn’t be inappropriate in my opinion.
>
>     Regards
>
>     Michele
>
>
>     --
>     Mr Michele Neylon
>     Blacknight Solutions
>     Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.blacknight.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=j2hneeLr3hUsHSxHLhHEb1bjEmz5fUokNEWnVsnQwmY%3D&reserved=0
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fblacknight.blog%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=Kakl%2FX4tWtOFZs1kIwN87vU8jTUDEz%2FdUUye7ZDidms%3D&reserved=0
> /
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fceo.hosting%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=UkIGx5xQMYFxIwkNsQw70M1N2CH8wESGXmQfKuYfeuk%3D&reserved=0
>     Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>     Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>     -------------------------------
>     Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,
> Sleaty Road, Graiguecullen, Carlow, R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>
>     From: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> on behalf of Hans Petter
> Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
>     Reply to: Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net>
>     Date: Thursday 4 June 2020 at 11:08
>     To: "ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net" <ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net>
>     Subject: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call
> for consensus by 15 June 2020
>
>
>     To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to
> provide financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would
> like community input.
>
>     The presentation can be seen at 7:45 into the video at
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe80.ripe.net%2Farchives%2Fvideo%2F383%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=xIyjSYiGwMWAmRsNB3kUbQl5QMq8wVfVBIxf3Vz2F4Y%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fripe80.ripe.net%2Farchives%2Fvideo%2F383%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812322981&sdata=xIyjSYiGwMWAmRsNB3kUbQl5QMq8wVfVBIxf3Vz2F4Y%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>     In principle, all RIPE Meeting attendees, including RIPE WG Chairs,
> Programme Committee members and presenters are expected to cover the costs
> of participating in a RIPE Meeting. However, in exceptional cases, for
> instance, if a WG would end up with no Chair during a meeting, a WG Chair
> can ask the RIPE Chair to request financial assistance from the RIPE NCC.
> This has mostly been limited to waiving the meeting fee, not for travel and
> accommodation.
>
>     The matter was discussed at RIPE NCC Executive Board meeting December
> 2018 after it was brought to the attention of the RIPE NCC Executive Board
> through one of its members. The board was positive to provide support also
> for travel and accommodation if needed, and tasked the RIPE Chair trough
> EB402 tasked to make a draft procedure.
>
>     The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be
> found at:
>
>
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fripe%2Fwg%2Fcc%2Fripe-working-group-chair-financial-support&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812332983&sdata=Ghhfow3fyTLS37x4VUymZ2W9dOYAzbvuZVFpu5HpvUA%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fripe%2Fwg%2Fcc%2Fripe-working-group-chair-financial-support&data=02%7C01%7Cbrian.nisbet%40heanet.ie%7Cd972283ace464ecd72bd08d8087801ae%7Ccd9e8269dfb648e082538b7baf8d3391%7C0%7C0%7C637268658812332983&sdata=Ghhfow3fyTLS37x4VUymZ2W9dOYAzbvuZVFpu5HpvUA%3D&reserved=0
> >
>
>     If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal
> request to the RIPE NCC for such support.
>
>     Hans Petter Holen
>     ad-interim RIPE  Chair
>
>
>
>
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Jan Zorz

2020-06-04 15:52:25 CET

On 04/06/2020 12:56, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
> I think this isn’t a bad idea, but my only concern would be how easy it 
> could be to abuse.

Hi,

I would not see this as abuse. In some other RIRs this is somehow a 
default - if you are a WG chair (or nomcom member or in whichever body 
that does work) the RIR would pay for your travel and accommodation 
basically by default, no questions asked.

How can this be abused? Ok, you can create X committees and become a 
member just to get your travel covered - but... come on...

Cheers, Jan

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Joe Abley

2020-06-04 15:59:20 CET

Hi there,

On 4 Jun 2020, at 06:08, Hans Petter Holen <hph _at_ oslo _dot_ net> wrote:

> The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be found at:
> 
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support 
> 
> If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

Peoples' circumstances do not allow them to travel to RIPE meetings and spend a week there volunteering for the community. It seems likely to me that there are excellent working group chair candidates who have not put themselves forward because they know they can't commit to attend. People whose employers won't support them with time and salary (or independent contractors who lose income when they can't work) are similarly disadvantaged. Eliminating those disadvantages might add useful additional perspectives to indviidual working groups and to the wg chair collective.

I think providing this funding might well reduce those barriers to participation. To Michele's point I don't think there is a serious risk that anybody would take on the job of being a working group chair with simply to get a free week in a hotel. People are selected to be working group chairs based on their reputations and their ability to do a good job, not simply because they put their hand up. If some unforeseen negative consequence did arise, the NCC could simply rescind the policy (with appropriate notice) and call it an experiment, in which case at least we learned something.

If the NCC is prepared to make budget available for this, I think it is a good idea.


Joe
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Gert Doering

2020-06-04 16:05:08 CET

Hi,

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:52:25PM +0200, Jan Zorz - Go6 wrote:
> How can this be abused? Ok, you can create X committees and become a 
> member just to get your travel covered - but... come on...

"Can I become something official?  please!  I want free travelling!"

If you do it "no strings attached" (like some conferences do for their
speakers) you can end up with very poor output (the bare minimum talk
to fill 30 minutes...).  BTST.

OTOH this proposal looks good to me.  If someone is willing to dedicate
his time to the WG, and the WG honours that, and he cannot do this due
to financial constraints - having the NCC sponsor this, with the strings
attached "your affiliation is not visible anymore" is a good thing.

(Which helps WG chairs in their internal corp discussions - "why do we
need to pay for your meetings?  a WG chair should have this for free?" - 
"yes, I can ask for it, but then $companyname would not be visible on
the introduction slides, is that OK for you?" - "what, no, please book
on the company account" :-) )

gert
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have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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Jim Reid

2020-06-04 16:35:31 CET


> On 4 Jun 2020, at 14:59, Joe Abley <jabley _at_ hopcount _dot_ ca> wrote:
> 
> People whose employers won't support them with time and salary (or independent contractors who lose income when they can't work) are similarly disadvantaged. Eliminating those disadvantages might add useful additional perspectives to indviidual working groups and to the wg chair collective.
> 
> I think providing this funding might well reduce those barriers to participation. 

Your point is well made Joe. But I think it’s a bit misguided even if though it is well intentioned. In cases of genuine hardship, it’s reasonable to be able to offer some level of  financial support as and when it’s needed. A mechanism where the RIPE Chairman (say) is able to apply some discretion and common sense seems the right way forward here. While I’m sympathetic to those who may be disadvantaged from volunteering, we need to be careful not to attract charlatans who just want to be a co-chair for the freebies.

IMO it’s unreasonable to make that support the norm or for a co-chair to make a habit of relying on that support. That would be the start of a very slippery slope. For instance, it amplifies the recently expressed concerns about the NCC having undue influence over the RIPE leadership. perceived conflicts of interest, etc. Regularising this arrangement sets a precedent which could mean offers of support get extended further -- freebies for all presenters? -- that ultimately leads to the NCC paying for everyone to go to RIPE meetings. 

One issue here is where and how to draw the line. The current proposal says "in exceptional cases” and I think that’s more than good enough.

Full disclosure: Axel and Rob kindly waived the meeting fee for me when my business was struggling ~10 years ago. My airmiles paid for travel and accommodation.

Nick Hilliard

2020-06-04 16:39:40 CET

Hans Petter Holen wrote on 04/06/2020 11:08:
> The proposal is modelled after the RIPE Fellowship program and can be 
> found at:
> 
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support
> 
> If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal 
> request to the RIPE NCC for such support.

this is basically a sound idea.  Traditionally the RIPE community shied 
away from the idea of subsidising the event cost for both speakers and 
chairs on the basis that it was a community funded event, and that 
therefore the onus was on the community to contribute equally.  But 
there isn't a fundamental problem with facilitating people who have 
difficulty raising the (often substantial) amount of money required to 
attend a RIPE meeting in person.

All subject to reasonable policy, obviously. The RIPE Fellowship program 
shows how this sort of policy can work well and how it can add value for 
everyone.

Nick


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Jaap Akkerhuis

2020-06-04 16:44:20 CET

 Jim Reid writes:
 >
 > Full disclosure: Axel and Rob kindly waived the meeting fee for
 > me when my business was struggling ~10 years ago. My airmiles paid
 > for travel and accommodation.

You forgot to mention that that was while you were a WG-chair. I
always thought that the ability of the RIPE chair to sponsor people
to the meetings included the WG-chairs so I'm wondering a bit why
they should be mentioned separately. (But I admit that I haven't
bothered listening to the proposal).

	jaap

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Hans Petter Holen

2020-06-04 16:52:21 CET

On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 at 16:44, Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap _at_ nlnetlabs _dot_ nl> wrote:

>
> You forgot to mention that that was while you were a WG-chair. I
> always thought that the ability of the RIPE chair to sponsor people
> to the meetings included the WG-chairs

That is correct, but in my time we have limited that to waiving the meeting
fee.


> so I'm wondering a bit why
> they should be mentioned separately.


The proposal will make this open and transparent to the community and
include travel and accommodation.

-hph

Jim Reid

2020-06-04 16:55:03 CET


> On 4 Jun 2020, at 15:44, Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap _at_ NLnetLabs _dot_ nl> wrote:
> 
>> Full disclosure: Axel and Rob kindly waived the meeting fee for
>> me when my business was struggling ~10 years ago. My airmiles paid
>> for travel and accommodation.
> 
> You forgot to mention that that was while you were a WG-chair.

True. Though I thought everyone would have known I was a WG chair at that time. It wasn’t a freebie just to hang out at the meeting. No matter.

> I always thought that the ability of the RIPE chair to sponsor people
> to the meetings included the WG-chairs so I'm wondering a bit why
> they should be mentioned separately. 

That’s true. Though in the past, the RIPE Chairman could ask for the meeting fee to be waived whenever someone who lacked funding was making a significant contribution to the meeting. This didn’t extend to travel and accommodation. IIUC that element was added when the RIPE Fellowship thing (aimed at research students?) started.


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Jan Zorz

2020-06-04 17:02:26 CET

On 04/06/2020 16:05, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:52:25PM +0200, Jan Zorz - Go6 wrote:
>> How can this be abused? Ok, you can create X committees and become a
>> member just to get your travel covered - but... come on...
> 
> "Can I become something official?  please!  I want free travelling!"
> 
> If you do it "no strings attached" (like some conferences do for their
> speakers) you can end up with very poor output (the bare minimum talk
> to fill 30 minutes...).  BTST.
> 
> OTOH this proposal looks good to me.  If someone is willing to dedicate
> his time to the WG, and the WG honours that, and he cannot do this due
> to financial constraints - having the NCC sponsor this, with the strings
> attached "your affiliation is not visible anymore" is a good thing.

Of course, in this case affiliation on the badge is not $company, but 
something related to RIPE work.

Cheers, Jan

> 
> (Which helps WG chairs in their internal corp discussions - "why do we
> need to pay for your meetings?  a WG chair should have this for free?" -
> "yes, I can ask for it, but then $companyname would not be visible on
> the introduction slides, is that OK for you?" - "what, no, please book
> on the company account" :-) )
> 
> gert
> 


User Image

Kurt Lindqvist

2020-06-04 17:04:04 CET


> On 4 Jun 2020, at 17:05, Gert Doering <gert _at_ space _dot_ net> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 03:52:25PM +0200, Jan Zorz - Go6 wrote:
>> How can this be abused? Ok, you can create X committees and become a
>> member just to get your travel covered - but... come on...
> 
> "Can I become something official?  please!  I want free travelling!"
> 
> If you do it "no strings attached" (like some conferences do for their
> speakers) you can end up with very poor output (the bare minimum talk
> to fill 30 minutes...).  BTST.
> 
> OTOH this proposal looks good to me.  If someone is willing to dedicate
> his time to the WG, and the WG honours that, and he cannot do this due
> to financial constraints - having the NCC sponsor this, with the strings
> attached "your affiliation is not visible anymore" is a good thing.
> 
> (Which helps WG chairs in their internal corp discussions - "why do we
> need to pay for your meetings?  a WG chair should have this for free?" -
> "yes, I can ask for it, but then $companyname would not be visible on
> the introduction slides, is that OK for you?" - "what, no, please book
> on the company account" :-) )

I would agree with Gert. I think the “barrier of entry” in the form of being selected WG co-chair probably is enough.

- kurtis -
User Image

Piotr Strzyżewski

2020-06-05 18:00:07 CET

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 12:08:05PM +0200, Hans Petter Holen wrote:

Dear Hans Petter,

> To follow up on the proposal the community plenary at RIPE 80, to provide
> financial support  Working Group (WG) Chairs if needed, I would like
> community input.

I support this proposal.

Piotr

-- 
Piotr Strzyżewski

User Image

Sander Steffann

2020-06-07 22:57:16 CET

Hi,

> Op 4 jun. 2020, om 17:04 heeft Kurtis Lindqvist <kurtis _at_ kurtis.pp _dot_ se> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> I would agree with Gert. I think the “barrier of entry” in the form of being selected WG co-chair probably is enough.

I agree. I think this proposal strikes a good balance. And it can always be improved with experience :)

Cheers,
Sander

User Image

Julf Helsingius

2020-06-08 08:56:11 CET

On 07-06-2020 22:57, Sander Steffann wrote:

> I agree. I think this proposal strikes a good balance. And it can always be improved with experience :)

I agree with Sander, Kurtis and Gert.

	Julf


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Christian Adler

2020-06-08 09:12:00 CET

+1 for Gert, Steffen and Kurtis


Christian




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________________________________
Von: ripe-list <ripe-list-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> im Auftrag von Sander Steffann <sander _at_ steffann _dot_ nl>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Juni 2020 22:57
An: Kurtis Lindqvist
Cc: ripe-list _at_ ripe _dot_ net
Betreff: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Working Group Chair Financial Support call for consensus by 15 June 2020

Hi,

> Op 4 jun. 2020, om 17:04 heeft Kurtis Lindqvist <kurtis _at_ kurtis.pp _dot_ se> het volgende geschreven:
>
> I would agree with Gert. I think the “barrier of entry” in the form of being selected WG co-chair probably is enough.

I agree. I think this proposal strikes a good balance. And it can always be improved with experience :)

Cheers,
Sander

User Image

Randy Bush

2020-06-08 17:40:47 CET

i not commented, as i may be less comfortable with all this than most
seem to be; but can not articulate why.  but one thing has annoyed me
for a long while

> Of course, in this case affiliation on the badge is not $company, but
> something related to RIPE work.

i am not at all comfortable with this.  i know who payed X's ticket; but
they do not speak for arin, or at least should not.  i want to know
their $dayjob, as that informs their real biases.  and they should say
that at the mic.

randy

User Image

Peter Koch

2020-06-15 09:04:42 CET

Hans Petter, all,

On Thu, Jun 04, 2020 at 12:08:05PM +0200, Hans Petter Holen wrote:

> https://www.ripe.net/participate/ripe/wg/cc/ripe-working-group-chair-financial-support
> 
> If there is consensus from the community on this I will do a formal request
> to the RIPE NCC for such support.

with the upcoming RIPE81 going virtual, I'd suggest there is no immediate
need for action (even taking into account the NCC's 2021 budgeting process).

While the offer looks generous and quite anybody could advertise sponsorship,
I do think that the neutrality that was expressed as being expected from NCC staff
in recent discussions would also extend to the NCC's Board. To that extent I
think the Board maybe overreached a bit - nobody had asked for this well to be drilled.

The proposal turns an exception into a rule and the way I read it gives the
full control over a session in the hands of a single individual.  For once,
much of the laudable work of WG chairs happens outside the face to face
sessions - but most of the WGs don't do WG work but have evolved into
specialized program streams - and probably rightfully so and to the
benefit of the participants.  But then, why focus on WG chairs?
What about the program committee and what about the contributors and presenters?

We've also seen WGs where the peak of discussion is around "selection" and then
little followup. The Accountability TF(*) has identified the WG chair selection
process as having room for improvement and even recently the role of the
"wg chair collective" has been found to be, say, "complex".  So, I believe,
things are very much in flux and the community do have some homework to
do which I'd like to see addressed before agreeing on another incentive
just because that looks like a "must eat".  Let's make sure we
put support in the right place and for the right reasons.

Regards,
   Peter

(*) for disclosure purposes: I was part of that TF

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Sander Steffann

2020-06-15 12:06:51 CET

Hi,

> While the offer looks generous and quite anybody could advertise sponsorship,
> I do think that the neutrality that was expressed as being expected from NCC staff
> in recent discussions would also extend to the NCC's Board. To that extent I
> think the Board maybe overreached a bit - nobody had asked for this well to be drilled.

As a former WG chair I strongly disagree. The NCC is not overreaching at all here, they are responding to requests from the community. I have asked Hans Petter for support in the past, and as the result of that the NCC gave me a refund of the meeting fee. That at least made it a little bit easier to attend the meeting. I am very happy to see better support for WG chairs that need it, on request.

> But then, why focus on WG chairs?
> What about the program committee and what about the contributors and presenters?

More can be done in the future, but one step at a time.

I am happy with the current step!

Cheers,
Sander

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Gordon Lennox

2020-06-16 14:08:14 CET

Just adding to the data set. In the past Rob offered me funding. I declined.

To be clear this was not when I was working for the Commission. They have a more than adequate budget! And anyway the conflict of interest there woukd have been uncomfortable.

But where do people see this going? Anyone who has a particular role - WG chairs, PC, speakers - will be eligible for funding? Will people still volunteer if others are getting funding? I presume that people will always need to get funding from elsewhere initially. And then?

In recent times I have been self-funding. The meeting fees have not influenced my participation. The choice of venue has.

I appreciated virtual Berlin. But I did miss the coffee!

Gordon

> On 15 Jun 2020, at 12:06, Sander Steffann <sander _at_ steffann _dot_ nl> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> While the offer looks generous and quite anybody could advertise sponsorship,
>> I do think that the neutrality that was expressed as being expected from NCC staff
>> in recent discussions would also extend to the NCC's Board. To that extent I
>> think the Board maybe overreached a bit - nobody had asked for this well to be drilled.
> 
> As a former WG chair I strongly disagree. The NCC is not overreaching at all here, they are responding to requests from the community. I have asked Hans Petter for support in the past, and as the result of that the NCC gave me a refund of the meeting fee. That at least made it a little bit easier to attend the meeting. I am very happy to see better support for WG chairs that need it, on request.
> 
>> But then, why focus on WG chairs?
>> What about the program committee and what about the contributors and presenters?
> 
> More can be done in the future, but one step at a time.
> 
> I am happy with the current step!
> 
> Cheers,
> Sander
> 


Sascha Luck [ml]

2020-06-16 15:22:38 CET

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:06:51PM +0200, Sander Steffann wrote:
>
>> But then, why focus on WG chairs?
>> What about the program committee and what about the contributors and presenters?
>
>More can be done in the future, but one step at a time.

Is anyone intending to ask the membership - who after all are
expected to pay for this? Most of the members of the NCC never
have attended and probably never will attend a RIPE meeting, some
doubtlessly because the cost of travel, accomodation, and meeting
fee is not worth it for them. Yet they seem to be expected,
shortly, to finance a clique of people coming to meet their
friends for a beer [1].
In the face of shrinking membership: Will fewer members be
expected to pay for more attendees? And, if yes, why?

IMO, there should never be a physical RIPE meeting again. -80 has
proven to be as useful (or not) as a physical meeting and one way
of ensuring equal access is to *not* have two classes of meeting
attendants: Those who get sponsored (by the NCC or their
employer) and those who'd have to cover the cost from their own
pocket or attend virtually.

rgds,
Sascha Luck

[1] the commonest reason given for wanting physical meetings
back after CoVID19: "I miss my mates and meeting them for
coffee/beer"

>
>I am happy with the current step!
>
>Cheers,
>Sander
>