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[address-policy-wg] Suggestion to replace IPv4 waiting list with auctions

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Wolfgang Zenker

2021-11-23 21:52:51 CET

Greetings,

in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to market
value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first IPv4
block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address hoarders,
defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.

I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
- /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
- every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
  amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
- highest bid wins.

Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold addresses
in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
quarantined address block to start their business.


Regards,
Wolfgang Zenker
-- 
punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500                   Fax: -100
.infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de    https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein
D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285


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Arash Naderpour

2021-11-24 01:33:40 CET

Hi,

How does it work with EU and Dutch sanctions regulations?

Regards,

Arash Naderpour



On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:52 AM Wolfgang Zenker <zenker _at_ punkt _dot_ de> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
> the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
> multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
> increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
> longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
> blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to market
> value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
> creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
> The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first IPv4
> block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address hoarders,
> defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.
>
> I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
> - /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
> - every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
>   amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
> - highest bid wins.
>
> Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
> they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
> without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
> the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold addresses
> in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
> quarantined address block to start their business.
>
>
> Regards,
> Wolfgang Zenker
> --
> punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500                   Fax:
> -100
> .infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de
> https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
> Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian
> Stein
> D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change
> your subscription options, please visit:
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg
>
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Wolfgang Zenker

2021-11-24 08:59:13 CET

Good morning,

Am Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:33:40AM +1100 schrieb Arash Naderpour:
> How does it work with EU and Dutch sanctions regulations?

I don't know. How does the current system work with the sanctions
regime?

> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 7:52 AM Wolfgang Zenker <zenker _at_ punkt _dot_ de> wrote:
>> in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
>> the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
>> multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
>> increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
>> longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
>> blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to market
>> value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
>> creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
>> The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first IPv4
>> block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address hoarders,
>> defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.

>> I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
>> - /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
>> - every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
>>   amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
>> - highest bid wins.

>> Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
>> they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
>> without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
>> the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold addresses
>> in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
>> quarantined address block to start their business.

Regards,
Wolfgang Zenker
-- 
punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500                   Fax: -100
.infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de    https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein
D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285

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Jordi Palet Martinez

2021-11-24 11:30:06 CET

I don't think this will work and it not fair.

Those resources should be provided only to new-entrants not new-LIRs from exisiting members.

 
 
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 23/11/21 21:53, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Wolfgang Zenker" <address-policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net en nombre de zenker _at_ punkt _dot_ de> escribió:

    Greetings,

    in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
    the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
    multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
    increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
    longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
    blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to market
    value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
    creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
    The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first IPv4
    block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address hoarders,
    defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.

    I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
    - /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
    - every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
      amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
    - highest bid wins.

    Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
    they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
    without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
    the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold addresses
    in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
    quarantined address block to start their business.


    Regards,
    Wolfgang Zenker
    -- 
    punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500                   Fax: -100
    .infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de    https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
    Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein
    D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285


    To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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Gert Doering

2021-11-24 11:35:48 CET

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:30:06AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
> I don't think this will work and it not fair.
> 
> Those resources should be provided only to new-entrants not new-LIRs from exisiting members.

That's a nice solution.  Just have a checkmark on the "new LIR" form that
says

  [ ] this is a new LIR and not related to any other LIR having IPv4 space

and people would certainly fill this in correctly.

Surely?

Gert Doering
        -- professional pessimist
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
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Jordi Palet Martinez

2021-11-24 11:38:48 CET

Yes, the people can try to cheat, but that's why the NCC verify documents, etc., right?


El 24/11/21 11:35, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Gert Doering" <address-policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net en nombre de gert _at_ space _dot_ net> escribió:

    Hi,

    On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:30:06AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
    > I don't think this will work and it not fair.
    > 
    > Those resources should be provided only to new-entrants not new-LIRs from exisiting members.

    That's a nice solution.  Just have a checkmark on the "new LIR" form that
    says

      [ ] this is a new LIR and not related to any other LIR having IPv4 space

    and people would certainly fill this in correctly.

    Surely?

    Gert Doering
            -- professional pessimist
    -- 
    have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

    SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
    Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
    D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
    Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
    To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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Gert Doering

2021-11-24 11:45:23 CET

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:38:48AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
> Yes, the people can try to cheat, but that's why the NCC verify documents, etc., right?

So, instead of opening a new LIR under "SpaceNet AG", I register a new
UK umbrella company under the name of "My New LIR Ltd".

This one would then apply for a new RIPE membership.

How do you know it's "SpaceNet AG" trying to sneak in and get more space?


I've said that before: we've been there before - the "restrict multiple
LIR accounts" approach leads to "those people that are in for the easy
monay and do not care for anything else" will just register new companies
with a new name for every new LIR.  Nothing won, but database accuracy
suffers, because you can't see the real owner anymore.

Thus, having a checkbox on the application form might actually do more
good - people will still cheat, but it won't harm the registry.

Gert Doering
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
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Jordi Palet Martinez

2021-11-24 12:02:20 CET

If it is a new company and "not related" to the previous one, no way to verify the "cheating". If it is "subsidiary", the constitution document say it.

Yes, it can be bypassed, but the staff can confirm if it is being done that way in most of the cases or if it is different business units or subsidiaries of the same "original" LIR.


Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 24/11/21 11:45, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Gert Doering" <address-policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net en nombre de gert _at_ space _dot_ net> escribió:

    Hi,

    On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:38:48AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
    > Yes, the people can try to cheat, but that's why the NCC verify documents, etc., right?

    So, instead of opening a new LIR under "SpaceNet AG", I register a new
    UK umbrella company under the name of "My New LIR Ltd".

    This one would then apply for a new RIPE membership.

    How do you know it's "SpaceNet AG" trying to sneak in and get more space?


    I've said that before: we've been there before - the "restrict multiple
    LIR accounts" approach leads to "those people that are in for the easy
    monay and do not care for anything else" will just register new companies
    with a new name for every new LIR.  Nothing won, but database accuracy
    suffers, because you can't see the real owner anymore.

    Thus, having a checkbox on the application form might actually do more
    good - people will still cheat, but it won't harm the registry.

    Gert Doering
    -- 
    have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

    SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
    Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
    D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
    Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
    To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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Daniel Suchy

2021-11-24 12:13:46 CET

RIPE NCC service region contains ~75 countries. Each country has 
somewhat different rules for company registration. And of course, owners 
of these companies also can come outside of this region.
Even in real bussiness is often hard to track real owner of particular 
organisation nor links between multiple organisations.

No, it isn't easy to track this. And it will be very expensive.

- Daniel

On 11/24/21 12:02, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
> If it is a new company and "not related" to the previous one, no way to verify the "cheating". If it is "subsidiary", the constitution document say it.
> 
> Yes, it can be bypassed, but the staff can confirm if it is being done that way in most of the cases or if it is different business units or subsidiaries of the same "original" LIR.
> 

Sebastian-Wilhelm Graf

2021-11-24 12:20:23 CET

Hello!

I have been considering different ideas how to implement a good system.
That improves the current resource-distribution system.
Because i think we can all agree that we should only implement changes that  
provide a significant improvement over the current situation.
Sadly i have failed to find language that would achieve the goal.

Lets try define some scenarios and clearly outline what we are trying to  
solve and what the side-effects are.

To me it appears the "issue" at hand is that some members feel that new LIRs  
will suffer from a reduced chance to recieve a /24 in the future.


*) Auction mode suggestion:
Realistically, this means, that in the short term this will disrupt the  
"aftermarket", but i do not think the amount of requests will go down. In  
fact, it may have the opposite effect. As its
more convienient and represents less "risk" than a transaction via broker.

*) Only new members can request a  /24
This instantly you down the road of evaluating and clawing for  
proof/documentation without a good method of verification. Lets face the  
fact that its easy to spin off new businesses. So instead
of the "main company"  sending the request, now you get an influx of newly  
formed companies (ie a LLC creats 5 LLCs for sub parts of its business,  
maybe one per location?).
Are any of those "non legimiate"? How do you define a verification process  
for that (asset based? if yes, what if they hold colocation  
contracts+server+router hardware"?....)

If we severely limit based on company ownership, or,.. then we quickly go  
down the path of "free will" assignments vs an exactly defined process/path.

Alternativly: all i see is a lot of database polution without any real value  
being added.


.....
If we cannot find language to guarantee a clear guideline for new  
assignments, where the positive effects outway the negative consequences,  
then:

I think we should just accept the fact that we will likely not improve the  
current situation. Especially in the context of the current state of things,  
where a few years down the road, there
will be no alternative to said "aftermarket".



Regards
Sebastian Graf



JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg writes:

> I don't think this will work and it not fair.
>
> Those resources should be provided only to new-entrants not new-LIRs from  
> exisiting members.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
> El 23/11/21 21:53, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Wolfgang Zenker"  policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net en nombre de zenker _at_ punkt _dot_ de> escribió:
>
>     Greetings,
>
>     in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
>     the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
>     multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
>     increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
>     longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
>     blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to market
>     value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
>     creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
>     The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first IPv4
>     block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address hoarders,
>     defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.
>
>     I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
>     - /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
>     - every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
>       amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
>     - highest bid wins.
>
>     Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
>     they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
>     without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
>     the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold addresses
>     in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
>     quarantined address block to start their business.
>
>
>     Regards,
>     Wolfgang Zenker
>     --
>     punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500                   Fax:  
> -100
>     .infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de     
> https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
>     Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian  
> Stein
>     D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or  
> change your subscription options, please visit:  
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or  
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the  
> individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure,  
> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if  
> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be  
> considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be  
> aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of  
> this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly  
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the  
> original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change  
> your subscription options, please visit:  
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg

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Xiufeng Guo

2021-11-24 12:21:15 CET

Hi Daniel,

RIPE NCC service all over the world, even if the company is registered our of RIPE region, they can still apply for LIR.

Regards,

Guo

-----Original Message-----
From: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net> On Behalf Of Daniel Suchy via address-policy-wg
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 7:14 PM
To: address-policy-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net
Cc: Daniel Suchy <danny _at_ danysek _dot_ cz>
Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] Suggestion to replace IPv4 waiting list with auctions

RIPE NCC service region contains ~75 countries. Each country has somewhat different rules for company registration. And of course, owners of these companies also can come outside of this region.
Even in real bussiness is often hard to track real owner of particular organisation nor links between multiple organisations.

No, it isn't easy to track this. And it will be very expensive.

- Daniel

On 11/24/21 12:02, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg wrote:
> If it is a new company and "not related" to the previous one, no way to verify the "cheating". If it is "subsidiary", the constitution document say it.
> 
> Yes, it can be bypassed, but the staff can confirm if it is being done that way in most of the cases or if it is different business units or subsidiaries of the same "original" LIR.
> 

To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg

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Arash Naderpour

2021-11-24 12:25:30 CET

An existing member can register a new entity to apply as a new member. And
it is legally a different entity and no one can stop them from getting a
new membership, and a new /24...

We have been here before...

Regards,

Arash



On Wed, 24 Nov 2021, 21:30 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address-policy-wg, <
address-policy-wg _at_ ripe _dot_ net> wrote:

> I don't think this will work and it not fair.
>
> Those resources should be provided only to new-entrants not new-LIRs from
> exisiting members.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
> El 23/11/21 21:53, "address-policy-wg en nombre de Wolfgang Zenker" <
> address-policy-wg-bounces _at_ ripe _dot_ net en nombre de zenker _at_ punkt _dot_ de> escribió:
>
>     Greetings,
>
>     in todays WG session Marco Schmidt pointed out that more than half of
>     the /24s allocated from the waiting list pool go to members with
>     multiple LIRs. The number of newly created LIRs eligible for a /24 has
>     increased a lot in recent months, to the point where requests can no
>     longer be filled from the available pool but new LIRs have to wait for
>     blocks coming out of quarantine. This change appears to be due to
> market
>     value for IPv4 blocks being now significantly larger than the cost for
>     creating a new LIR and maintaining it for the two year holding period.
>     The result of this is that newcomers have no easy access to a first
> IPv4
>     block but have to wait in line together with multi-LIR address
> hoarders,
>     defeating the purpose of the waiting list policy.
>
>     I suggest to replace the waiting list with the following system:
>     - /24s becoming available are put to an auction.
>     - every interested member organisation (NOT: LIR) can make a bid of an
>       amount that is not visible to the other bidders.
>     - highest bid wins.
>
>     Expected result would be less requests from address hoarders because
>     they could get address blocks for a similar price on the open market
>     without the additional overhead of creating a new member. Newcomers on
>     the other hand would have to become members to be able to hold
> addresses
>     in the first place, and can use the auction to get access to a properly
>     quarantined address block to start their business.
>
>
>     Regards,
>     Wolfgang Zenker
>     --
>     punkt.de GmbH               Tel. +49 721 9109-500
>  Fax: -100
>     .infrastructure             info _at_ punkt _dot_ de
> https://infrastructure.punkt.de/
>     Kaiserallee 13a             CEO: Jürgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert,
> Fabian Stein
>     D-76133 Karlsruhe           AG Mannheim HRB 108285
>
>
>     To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or
> change your subscription options, please visit:
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
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Sebastian-Wilhelm Graf

2021-11-24 12:32:16 CET

Hello!

After writing my previous reply to this conversation, i had a random  
thought. Maybe as an alternative to complex, overreaching and probably  
impossible to enforce policy,... we could go the opposite route.

- How many /24s can are still avalible for allocation?
- How many LIR accounts are there currently?

If there is avaliblity to cover it, we could just give every current LIR a /24
and instantly "remove" the "pool". Thus same chances for everyone and there  
is no more discussion.

Weird Other thought:
If we dont have enough /24's to cover, or we end with an uneven number  
remaining, we could do a lottery.


It all just leads to where we will get eventually anyhow.

Regards
Sebastian Graf

Gert Doering writes:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:38:48AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via address- 
> policy-wg wrote:
> > Yes, the people can try to cheat, but that's why the NCC verify documents,  
> etc., right?
>
> So, instead of opening a new LIR under "SpaceNet AG", I register a new
> UK umbrella company under the name of "My New LIR Ltd".
>
> This one would then apply for a new RIPE membership.
>
> How do you know it's "SpaceNet AG" trying to sneak in and get more space?
>
>
> I've said that before: we've been there before - the "restrict multiple
> LIR accounts" approach leads to "those people that are in for the easy
> monay and do not care for anything else" will just register new companies
> with a new name for every new LIR.  Nothing won, but database accuracy
> suffers, because you can't see the real owner anymore.
>
> Thus, having a checkbox on the application form might actually do more
> good - people will still cheat, but it won't harm the registry.
>
> Gert Doering
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>
> SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael  
> Emmer
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

User Image

Cynthia Revström

2021-11-24 13:07:31 CET

Hi,

I think just handing out all or doing a lottery is a really bad idea.

I think the best way is simply to realize that there is no perfect or even
particularly good way to deal with this and the current system is probably
the best we can reasonably have.
The true solution will be more IPv6 implementation.

-Cynthia

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 12:32 PM Sebastian-Wilhelm Graf <
ripe-lists _at_ sebastian-graf _dot_ at> wrote:

> Hello!
>
> After writing my previous reply to this conversation, i had a random
> thought. Maybe as an alternative to complex, overreaching and probably
> impossible to enforce policy,... we could go the opposite route.
>
> - How many /24s can are still avalible for allocation?
> - How many LIR accounts are there currently?
>
> If there is avaliblity to cover it, we could just give every current LIR a
> /24
> and instantly "remove" the "pool". Thus same chances for everyone and
> there
> is no more discussion.
>
> Weird Other thought:
> If we dont have enough /24's to cover, or we end with an uneven number
> remaining, we could do a lottery.
>
>
> It all just leads to where we will get eventually anyhow.
>
> Regards
> Sebastian Graf
>
> Gert Doering writes:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 11:38:48AM +0100, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
> address-
> > policy-wg wrote:
> > > Yes, the people can try to cheat, but that's why the NCC verify
> documents,
> > etc., right?
> >
> > So, instead of opening a new LIR under "SpaceNet AG", I register a new
> > UK umbrella company under the name of "My New LIR Ltd".
> >
> > This one would then apply for a new RIPE membership.
> >
> > How do you know it's "SpaceNet AG" trying to sneak in and get more space?
> >
> >
> > I've said that before: we've been there before - the "restrict multiple
> > LIR accounts" approach leads to "those people that are in for the easy
> > monay and do not care for anything else" will just register new companies
> > with a new name for every new LIR.  Nothing won, but database accuracy
> > suffers, because you can't see the real owner anymore.
> >
> > Thus, having a checkbox on the application form might actually do more
> > good - people will still cheat, but it won't harm the registry.
> >
> > Gert Doering
> > --
> > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
> >
> > SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard,
> Michael
> > Emmer
> > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> > D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
>
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password reminder, or change
> your subscription options, please visit:
> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg
>