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RIPE NCC Executive Board Chairman Nigel Titley opened the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) at 18:06 (UTC +1) and welcomed attendees.
Jochem de Ruig, Chief Financial Officer of the RIPE NCC, gave the RIPE NCC financial update and presented on the outlook for the rest of 2011. The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/financial-update-and-outlook
The RIPE NCC reporting for the General Meeting was presented in the RIPE NCC Services Working Group at RIPE 63. This took place on 2 November 2011 from 16:00-17:30. General Meeting attendees that had not registered for the RIPE Meeting were welcome to participate in the RIPE NCC Services Working Group session. The RIPE NCC reports were not repeated in the General Meeting.
http://ripe63.ripe.net/presentations/135-RIPENCC_SM_FINAL.pdf
The Chairman gave the report from the Executive Board. The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/report-from-the-executive-board
A member asked how it was possible to become involved in the formulation of the Activity Plan, Budget and Charging Scheme.
The Chairman said that all the documents were published well in advance of the General Meeting, so there was time for the members to comment on them and make their opinions known.
The member said that the Executive Board agreed to publish the costs of activities in the Activity Plan a number of years ago but this has not yet happened. He added that this is why there is so little feedback on this document. He said it was impossible for members to assess the value of a certain activity without knowing how much it cost.
The Chairman said this this had always been the case with the Activity Plan but it would be changed in light of comments and requests from the membership.
The member said there was no discussion on the Charging Scheme before August 2011. He said there were approximately 200 emails to the members-discuss mailing list but only three informative emails in response from the Executive Board.
The Chairman said that the members-discuss mailing list exists for the membership to discuss RIPE NCC-related issues. He said the Executive Board and RIPE NCC staff follow the discussions closely and only respond if necessary to provide further information.
A member said that he was happy to hear that the costs would be added to the Activity Plan. On the Activity Plan itself, he said that it was quite unstructured, including a range of items from the very small to the very large. He added that the Activity Plan could be presented to the membership in a more gradual way throughout the year to allow enhanced discussion of its merits.
The Chairman agreed that the Activity Plan could be better structured. He said that the Activity Plan needs to be drafted before the Budget and Charging Scheme can be created. He said the need for openness and transparency regarding all documents means that it is difficult to present them earlier.
The Chairman asked Alex Band, RIPE NCC Product Manager, to give an update on Resource Certification (RPKI) so the membership would be aware of all developments regarding Resource Certification and be able to make an informed decision when voting on the related resolutions. Alex's presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/certifcation-activity-plan-2012
A member said that the goal of Resource Certification (RPKI) is to install a mechanism to quickly and accurately distribute information that resources are correctly registered in the RIPE Database or not. He added that the value comes if the routing community agrees that there is a valid verifiable digital signature on a resource that can be used to make routing decisions. He said if the system is not implemented like this then the whole exercise is futile.
A member said that RPKI is a good system if everyone uses it, but the problem is that not every router supports it yet. He added that, as with all routing systems, it needs everyone to use it or it becomes useless. He said you could either lose traffic or lose customers.
A member disagreed, saying you could use the RPKI data right now and get benefit from it regardless of router implementations. He said communication about the development of the system has been scarce since the RIPE 62 Meeting. He said information on how the RIPE NCC was creating a roadmap for development has been worked on but has not really been picked up on by the RIPE community.
The Chairman clarified that the said member was referring to the up-down protocol and said that part of the problem was that the Certification Task Force disbanded over a year ago.
Alex Band said that the functionality for the up-down protocol has been built and is running on a pilot server. He said he invited the RIPE community to try it out, but so far no one had used the functionality.
A member said that the major danger of RPKI was that it imposes a very hierarchical structure on routing. He said this creates a single point of attack or failure.
The Chairman explained the Resource Certification resolutions to be voted on. He said if option A were approved, the RIPE NCC would abandon Resource Certification completely. He said if option B were approved, Resource Certification activities would continue but without the ability to create Route Object Authorisations (ROAs). He said this would remove most of the objections to Resource Certification as it currently stands. He said if both options were rejected, work would continue on full implementation of Resource Certification systems.
A member asked what the financial implications would be of option A or option B being approved.
The Chairman said that the cost of option A being approved would be low in terms of ongoing costs but there would be a substantial write-off on the RPKI software development, which has been taken as an asset. He said the approval of option B would have no financial effect whatsoever.
A member asked if it was possible to vote to approve both options, and the Chairman said that this was possible. The member asked if outreach and training regarding Resource Certification would continue if option B were approved.
The Chairman said these activities would be somewhat curtailed. He also said that if option B were approved, all generation of ROAs would be stopped and all existing ROAs would eventually be discarded. He said this would not prevent others from creating their own ROAs.
The Chairman said there was no recommendation from the Board on the resolutions.
Several members voiced their opinions for and against the RPKI service.
The Chairman clarified that members would have to reject option A and option B for Resource Certification to continue with the deployment of RPKI. He noted that the resolution would be voted for under Agenda point 11.
At this point, RIPE NCC Executive Board member Fahad AlShirawi joined the General Meeting remotely and apologised for not being able to attend in person.
Jochem de Ruig, Chief Financial Officer of the RIPE NCC, presented on the Draft RIPE NCC Budget 2012. The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/draft-budget-2012
Jochem de Ruig, Chief Financial Officer of the RIPE NCC, presented on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2012. The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2012
A member said he was unable to see what category he would fit into with the proposed Charging Scheme because he would fall into different categories for IPv4, IPv6 and AS Numbers.
RIPE NCC Executive Board Treasurer Remco van Mook explained that the highest category would take precedence.
A RIPE Address Policy Working Group Co-Chair said that with the Charging Scheme changes brought about by RIPE Policy Proposal 2007-01, the working group said that each independent resource should cost the same amount. He said if RIPE NCC members wished to offer IPv6 PI resources for free, he could understand that, but he objected to the RIPE NCC presenting a Charging Scheme that does something other than what the community asked for. He also objected to IPv4 PI counting towards the resources that decide a member's category, causing them to move up a category. He said this could be seen as a political statement from the RIPE NCC that LIRs who provide PI address space should be discouraged.
A member asked for the reasoning behind the relatively big jumps in fees for the two largest categories. She said it would mean an 82% increase for her LIR and asked how this could be seen to be fair.
Remco said he understood the problem. He explain that larger members' fees would increase with the proposed Charging Scheme because they held many address blocks that were often quite large.
A member asked how the EUR 50 price imposed on independent resources is compliant with the tax ruling the RIPE NCC operates under.
The Chairman replied that the RIPE community imposed the EUR 50 charge and there was very little that could be done about that. He said in relation to PI space affecting categories, that was a decision that was taken that seemed to have support from the membership, but the membership could reject the Charging Scheme if it so wished.
The member said that it might now be cheaper for those wanting PI space to go directly to the RIPE NCC and join the 3XS category, and he asked if the RIPE NCC was prepared for a possible influx of clients if that happened.
The Chairman said that the Executive Board had looked into this and forecasts had been made.
A member asked if legacy space, which would not be charged in the proposed Charging Scheme, would count as PI space or PA space in the future because at the moment it is called allocated PI space in the RIPE Database.
The Chairman said that this was strange and the member should file a query with the RIPE NCC.
A member asked what would happen if the membership rejected the proposed Charging Scheme.
The Chairman said that if the Charging Scheme were rejected, the previous Charging Scheme would stay in effect for the next year. He said there would be a decrease in income of about 400 kEUR and if the RIPE NCC incurred a deficit, this would be taken from reserves.
A member said that if you present a Charging Scheme with cost increases for large LIRs so shortly before the end of the year then this presents a lot of problems.
The Chairman said part of the problem was the need to do things openly and transparently. He said the Activity Plan must be set before the Budget is formulated and the Charging Scheme is decided. He said the Activity Plan had to be created somewhat near to the year to which it applies.
A member said he received a letter asking him to register his legacy space with the RIPE NCC and he wanted to know if he would be charged for this.
The Chairman confirmed that he would not be charged for registering his legacy space under the proposed Charging Scheme.
A member asked the Executive Board to clarify that if his LIR were the sponsoring LIR for a customer with IPv4 PI space, then the LIR would have that address space taken into account when his category was being decided.
The Chairman confirmed that this was the case.
A member said there should be a charge for all independent resources, not just IPv4.
A member said that nothing seemed definite in regard to the tax agreement with Dutch authorities and he asked for clarification on this matter.
Remco said that the agreement was an old agreement and the Executive Board did not want to seek clarification from the tax authorities in case the agreement was put up for review.
A member asked if the budget increase had anything to do with the RIPE Atlas project.
The Chairman said it did not. He added that the Budget for 2012 had not been completely finalised yet.
The Chairman noted that the resolution would be voted for under Agenda point 11.
Athina Fragkouli, Legal Counsel at the RIPE NCC, presented the proposed changes to the RIPE NCC Articles of Association (AoA). The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/changes-to-aoa
A member asked why there was a need for proxy voting when electronic voting was much easier.
The Chairman said there were requests from the membership for this and the Executive Board wanted to make it as easy as possible to vote.
A member asked what would happen if a member was registered to vote at the GM but did not attend.
Athina said that physical attendees could register on site, and if the person registered does not attend then another person representing that member could still attend and cast the vote. She added that it was proposed to reduce the deadline to register for electronic voting to one day before the GM to make it easier for people to vote.
A member commented on the new section 8.6 of the AoA, which says that a member will indemnify the RIPE NCC against any and all third party claims filed against the RIPE NCC in relation to the member's use of RIPE NCC services. He said he had taken legal advice and this opens his company to unlimited liability to the RIPE NCC. He said that because of this, the RIPE NCC has the unlimited financial backing of every government in Europe. He asked why the RIPE NCC had not taken the opportunity to change this clause while it had the chance.
Remco van Mook, the Executive Board Treasurer, said this was not something the Board had considered but they would look at the clause for the next round of changes.
A member said he was in favour of some of the changes to the AoA and not in favour of others. He asked that, in future, it be made possible for members to vote on the changes individually instead of having to vote on all of them at once.
A member asked for clarification on the voting system for Executive Board elections and Athina explained the voting system.
The Chairman noted that the resolution would be voted for under Agenda point 11.
Athina Fragkouli, Legal Counsel at the RIPE NCC, presented the proposed changes to the RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement (SSA). The presentation is available at:
https://www.ripe.net/lir-services/ncc/gm/november-2011/presentations/ssa
A member said there was a danger with the new version of the SSA that if the RIPE NCC closed an LIR, it could affect third parties connected to that LIR.
The Chairman said the document referred to assigned resources rather than independent resources.
A member asked if all members would be required to sign the new document.
The Chairman said this would not be necessary.
A member said the wording of section 9.4 is not acceptable because it could put customers out of business from one day to the next. He said there is no indication in section 9.4 that any false information needs to be deliberate.
The Chairman said that the accidental provision of false information would not incur any penalty.
A member said immediate termination of an LIR at the sole discretion of the RIPE NCC was not a good idea and there should be the facility to have an institutionalised second opinion. He said if an LIR was in financial trouble and its resources were taken away, this would remove any likelihood of that LIR's recovery.
Athina said there was a procedure in place to cater for the deregistration of resources. She also said that if an LIR was declared bankrupt but was continuing to carry out business, the resources would not be deregistered.
A member pointed out that there were differences between Europe and Russia, and he added that documents were not legal in Russia unless there was a signature on them. He also said that in Russia, contracts for services should list the services that are being paid for. He asked how he would prove that he gets a certain service.
The Chairman said the RIPE NCC could provide a document in Russian stating that a member paid for services and received them. He added that all members could receive their contracts in paper format rather than by fax if they wished.
There was discussion of various clauses in the SSA and Athina provided clarification on these matters.
A member asked if RIPE NCC members in Russia would need to sign the new version of the SSA.
Remco said that there was no need because the old SSA gives the GM the right to change the terms, but if members wanted to sign a new agreement then that would be facilitated.
The Chairman noted that the resolution would be voted for under Agenda point 11.
A member stated that he thought that David Freedman would make an excellent addition to the RIPE NCC Arbiters Panel.
David Freedman outlined his reasons for standing for the panel. He said it was an extremely important job and he would be happy to serve in that capacity.
The Chairman noted that the resolution would be voted for under Agenda point 11.
The Chairman gave a presentation on how voting on the resolutions would take place. The presentation is available at:
The Chairman corrected a slide in his presentation and noted that voting would continue until Thursday, 3 November at 14:00 (UTC +1).
The Chairman announced the results of the voting on the resolutions as follows.
a) Option A: The formal resolution:
WHEREAS the General Meeting has been asked by the Executive Board to give direction on the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI)/Certification activities of the association,
WHEREAS the Certification activity has been outlined in the RIPE NCC Activity Plan for the last five years with no negative feedback from the membership,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard support from the community and the membership for operating and further developing the RPKI,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard the discussion in the RIPE community over recent months and in particular at the previous RIPE Meeting,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns from some that the autonomy of the members to set and implement their routing policy might be reduced by the RPKI,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard requests to get detailed information about the reasons for potential revocation of certificates,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns about the necessity of harmonisation of cryptographic tools and algorithms used with local legislation in different countries,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns that the routing infrastructure might experience operational threats when the RPKI is deployed,
THEREFORE:
No 161
Yes 83
Abstain 17
The resolution was deemed to have been rejected.
Option B: The formal resolution:
WHEREAS the General Meeting has been asked by the Executive Board to give direction on the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI)/Certification activities of the association,
WHEREAS the Certification activity has been outlined in the RIPE NCC Activity Plan for the last five years with no negative feedback from the membership,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard support from the community and the membership for operating and further developing the RPKI,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard the discussion in the RIPE community over recent months and in particular at the previous RIPE Meeting,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns from some that the autonomy of the members to set and implement their routing policy might be reduced by the RPKI,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard requests to get detailed information about the reasons for potential revocation of certificates,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns about the necessity of harmonisation of cryptographic tools and algorithms used with local legislation in different countries,
WHEREAS the General Meeting has heard concerns that the routing infrastructure might experience operational threats when the RPKI is deployed,
THEREFORE:
No 120
Yes 114
Abstain 26
The resolution was deemed to be rejected.
b) The General Meeting adopts the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2012.
No 148
Yes 102
Abstain 11
The resolution was deemed to be rejected.
c) "The General Meeting, in accordance with Article 21 of the Articles of Association, adopts the amendments to the Articles of Association as proposed and announced by the Executive Board on 5 October 2011."
"Furthermore, the General Meeting instructs and authorises the Executive Board to perform or to have performed all that is required to have the amendments executed before a Dutch civil law notary, including but not limited to the translation into Dutch by certified translator and final amendment at the request of the notary or RIPE NCC's lawyer of the exact wording of the amendments in Dutch, and the amendment of any cross-references to the Articles of Association in other documents to bring these in conformity with the Articles of Association as adopted in this General Meeting." Discussion of this resolution takes place under agenda point 8.
Yes 193
Abstain 41
No 27
The resolution was deemed to be accepted.
d) “The General Meeting adopts the proposed new RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement, makes obsolete the old RIPE NCC Standard Service Agreement and the RIPE NCC Standard Terms and Conditions, and instructs the RIPE NCC Executive Board and management of the RIPE NCC to implement the necessary changes.” Discussion of this resolution takes place under agenda point 9.
Yes 200
No 38
Abstain 23
The resolution was deemed to be accepted.
e) "The General Meeting approves the addition of David Freedman to the RIPE NCC Arbiters Panel."
Discussion of this resolution takes place under agenda point 10.
Yes 203
No 31
Abstain 27
The resolution was deemed to be accepted.
The Chairman thanked the membership for their participation and closed the GM at 15:51 (UTC +1) on Thursday, 3 November 2011.