RIPE NCC Services Working Group Minutes from RIPE 48

• content to the Chair of the working group.
  
• format to webmaster@ripe.net.

RIPE NCC Services Working Group Summary (RIPE 48)

  Date:   Tuesday 4 May 2004
  Time:   14.00 - 15.30
  Location: Grand Ballroom
 
  Date:   Thursday 6 May 2004
  Time:   11.00 - 12.30
  Location: Grand Ballroom
 
  AGENDA:
 
  A. Administrative Matters
  B. Axel - RIPE NCC Update / 2005 Activity Plan
  C. RIPE NCC - LIR Portal Update
  E. Kurtis Lindqvist - WG input for the 2005 Activity Plan
  F. Filiz Yilmaz - Authentication for Hostmaster Robot
  G. Daniel Karrenberg - De-Bogonising New Address Blocks
  Y. Open Microphone
  Z. AOB
 
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/presentations/ripe48-nccserv-agenda.pdf
  ********************************************************************
 
  A. Kurtis Lindqvist - Administrative Matters
  **********************************
  Chair: Kurtis Lindqvist - Netnod Internet Exchange
  Co-Chair: Bijal Sanghani - Flag Telecom
  Scribes:  Eamonn McGuinness, Nathalie Dougall
 
  Minutes from RIPE 47 approved:
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/wg/ncc-services/r47-minutes.html
 
  B. RIPE NCC Update / 2005 Activity Plan
  Presented by: Axel Pawlik - RIPE NCC Managing Director
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/presentations/ripe48-nccserv-ncc-update.pdf
  ***********************************************************************
  Axel spoke about the 2004 and 2005 Activity Plans.  Members were asked  
  to think about their input for the 2005 Activity Plan.  The agenda  
  point at the 2nd session of this working group (Thursday morning) is  
  where people can provide input and/or raise any issues of concern.  
  People are also encouraged to approach Axel, and/or other member of  
  the RIPE NCC staff, and/or any of the attending RIPE NCC Board members  
  to speak privately should they be hesitant to do in the public arena.
 
  Within Registration Services (RS), the RIPE NCC Hostmasters are trying  
  to improve how they interact with customers. The Local Internet  
  Registry (LIR) Portal has many useful features such as new request  
  forms, wizards and so on. Reverse Delegation is in the process of  
  becoming more automated and straightforward.
 
  The RIPE NCC is unhappy with IANA at the moment as it is still waiting  
  for a new block of IPv6 addresses. They were notified in February to  
  expect a large request from the RIPE NCC as requests from members are  
  being received.  Feedback received from IANA was positive. However  
  when the RIPE NCC requested an additional IPv6 block at the end of  
  March, IANA responded that they had issues with the request and needed  
  to discuss it with the IAB (Internet Architecture Board) first. It was  
  made clear that the IAB are not at fault.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) asked what exactly is the problem?
 
  Axel (RIPE NCC Managing Director) said in the past it was decided that  
  IANA give /23 blocks of IPv6 to each RIR which was fine so far. But  
  now the RIPE NCC are receiving requests which justify larger  
  allocations, hence the request for a larger allocation than a /23.
 
  Gert Doering (SpaceNet) wanted to clarify a small point, that the  
  community were actually not so happy that only /23s were allocated to  
  the RIR's. Larger blocks should have been given.
 
  - -Back to the presentation-
 
  Axel highlighted that the RIPE NCC are being proactive in scheduling  
  member training courses alongside related conferences in the RIPE  
  service region.
 
  AfriNIC should become the next established RIR at the end of 2004, or  
  in early 2005. The 1st AfriNIC open policy meeting will be held in  
  Dakar in May - http://www.afrinic.net.
 
  The Membership Liaison Officers (MLOs) are responsible for improving  
  co-ordination and to provide further outreach to the RIPE NCC  
  community. There are two more Regional Meetings planned in 2004:  
  Moscow and Nairobi.
 
  The RIPE NCC Communications department are co-ordinating with the  
  other RIRs to report consistent and accurate data to news agencies and  
  media when necessary.
 
  Axel reported that the RIPE NCC is planning another Membership Survey  
  in 2005 as the previous one (2002) was very useful. Many suggestions  
  from the previous survey were implemented as can be seen from this
 
  year's Annual Report and Activity Plan.
 
  Wilfried Woeber (UniVie / ACOnet asked why these regional meetings are  
  free of charge and why they weren't self-sufficient, like the RIPE  
  Meetings.
 
  Axel explained that the Regional Meetings are RIPE NCC meetings, not  
  RIPE meetings.  The difference is that the RIPE NCC goes out into a  
  specific region, meeting directly with the membership, according to  
  needs of that region.  This is a different focus than the open process  
  of RIPE meetings.
 
  The 2002 Membership Survey and other sources expressed the opinion  
  that some parts of the RIPE region were unaware or unfamiliar with the  
  RIPE NCC and with general policies and procedures. Regional desks were  
  suggested, thus the MLO role was created within the RIPE NCC.  The  
  first obvious region to meet was the Middle East, followed by Russia.   
  The goals of these meetings are to educate, increase knowledge and  
  allow the RIPE NCC to be more accessible to members in remote regions.  
   These meetings also afford us the opportunity to speak with  
  government agencies and so forth.
 
  C. RIPE NCC / LIR Portal Update
  Presented by: Vesna Manojlovic - RIPE NCC Advanced Courses Trainer
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/presentations/ripe48-nccserv-lirportal.pdf
  ********************************************************************
  Vesna began by asking how many of the present audience uses the LIR  
  Portal. Nearly everyone put their hand up.
 
  During the presentation Wilfried Woeber (UniVie / ACOnet) asked what  
  'RSS' stands for?
 
  Vesna explained that RSS stands for 'Really Simple Syndication'. It is  
  a web syndication protocol used primarily by news websites and web  
  logs.
 
  Vesna reported how the tools on the LIR Portal are helping the RIPE  
  NCC's members acquire IP address resources quickly. This in turn  
  allows the RIPE NCC to concentrate more time assisting new and  
  inexperienced LIRs.  Vesna concluded by saying that all feedback and  
  input from the membership is welcome and does make a difference.
 
  Andre Koopal (MCI) would like to be able to have access to the  
  messages in the Hostmaster tickets his LIR has with the RIPE NCC.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) ended the discussion reiterating the fact  
  that the original intention was for an LIR to give this presentation  
  but there were no volunteers. He would like to get a volunteer for the  
  next RIPE meeting in Manchester in September 2004.
 
  E. Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) - WG input for the 2005 Activity Plan
  ***************************************************
  Kurtis reminded everyone why this working group was set up - to  
  provide input and dialogue to the Activity Plan of the RIPE NCC. The  
  work the RIPE NCC does should reflect the wishes and needs of the  
  community.
 
  When there was no response from the audience when asked if anyone gave  
  any feedback to the RIPE NCC about the Activity Plan for 2005, Kurtis  
  asked if everyone were happy for the RIPE NCC to take care of  
  compiling the Activity Plan on their own. Again there was no response.
 
  Axel Pawlik (RIPE NCC Managing Director) was not surprised, but still  
  a little disappointed at not receiving any feedback on this topic. He  
  will give a similar presentation (Agenda item B.) on Friday afternoon  
  during the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) where members will be  
  present. This therefore presents another formal opportunity for RIPE  
  NCC members to give input and thoughts on the AP. If Axel or the RIPE  
  NCC Board do not receive any feedback they will take this as approval  
  to go ahead with the plan. Axel reminded everyone that the Activity  
  Plan would be published to the RIPE NCC membership in August 2004, a  
  few weeks before the General Meeting at RIPE 49 in Manchester in  
  September 2004.
 
  Kurtis pleaded to the community to give input and feedback with  
  respect to the Activity Plan.  If it is difficult to speak up at the  
  meeting, then emails to Axel and/or the RIPE NCC Board Members are  
  also an option.  It is worrying that there appears to be silence on  
  this issue.
 
  F. Authentication for Hostmaster Robot
  Presented by:  Filiz Yilmaz - RIPE NCC Senior Hostmaster
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/presentations/ripe48-nccserv-hm-robot.pdf
  **********************************************************************
  After Filiz gave her presentation, Gert Doering (SpaceNet) said that  
  in his opinion the problem with PGP is the key management (user keys,  
  Hostmaster key etc.) and the RIPE NCC have solved this now. He  
  suggested a script could be added to the LIR Portal for users who can  
  choose to have their e-mails encrypted or not. Then the RIPE NCC  
  Hostmasters can accept the e-mails as encrypted or not.
 
  Shane Kerr (RIPE NCC Software Manager) was more cautious as this  
  change would not come without complications. He explained how many LIR  
  Portal users lose their keys but the RIPE NCC cannot suddenly stop  
  communicating with LIRs in those cases.  Signing is easier, as the  
  e-mail is visible and the user knows what the RIPE NCC is trying to  
  send them and vice versa. The RIPE NCC can look at their mail logs and  
  see what is going on there. There is already an infrastructure for key  
  management and recovery in place.
 
  Another problem Shane reported is that some communication is not only  
  "one-to-one", but also sometimes "one-to-many". This complicates the  
  picture quite a bit. All of the recipients have to read the e-mail and  
  if some do not have a PGP key or X.509 there is simply no way to  
  encrypt it for them. It was decided not to pursue the effort of going  
  into this issue in great detail before the last RIPE Meeting, because  
  of the complications it poses, therefore the RIPE NCC decided to focus  
  on verifying the correctness of the e-mail before starting to encrypt  
  it.
 
  Once this is done, the RIPE community will have to be asked if it is  
  worth the effort for the RIPE NCC to go over all of these issues and  
  put together a plan.
 
  Randy Bush (IIJ) asked, regarding automated software signing of  
  messages with PGP and X.509, how those keys are maintained and revoked  
  and so on.  This is in light of the fact that if this process is being  
  done automatically, are there keys on a hard disk which may pose a  
  security risk?
 
  Shane (RIPE NCC Software Manager) responded by saying it is RIPE NCC's  
  policy to have extra secure hosts. These include CA and the RIPE NCC's  
  PGP signing box. There are two or three hosts, which have a limited  
  access and are connected directly to a single box, which is not on the  
  fabric of the RIPE NCC's network. The Operations Department of the  
  RIPE NCC can access most of the machines in the RIPE NCC. These boxes  
  have a smaller set of Administrators with access. The hosts are secure  
  so the keys are not generally available.
 
  The RIPE NCC takes security seriously. For PGP there is a key-signing  
  box and a set of procedures where the keys are changed regularly. Even  
  so, Shane admits the RIPE NCC has not published their old keys  
  recently and he promises to get that fixed shortly.
 
  Randy Bush (IIJ) asserted that presuming hosts are secure is a rather  
  weak assumption.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) asked Shane if there has there been any more  
  co-ordination work done with the other RIR's regarding X.509?
 
  Shane (RIPE NCC Software Manager) said the RIPE NCC is willing to make  
  a more detailed presentation on the underlining issues of PGP  
  encryption if the community wishes. The RIPE NCC put together this  
  presentation because they would like to start building it. Shane asked  
  the audience if the community were supportive of the proposal. There  
  were no objections to the proposal.
 
  ACTIONS
  ********
  48.1 RIPE NCC - To make a more detailed presentation on PGP encryption.
  48.2 RIPE NCC - To start implementing the key-signing proposal.
 
  G. De-Bogonising New Address Blocks
  Presented by:  Daniel Karrenberg - RIPE NCC Chief Scientist
  http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-48/presentations/ripe48-nccserv-debogon.pdf
  *********************************************************************
  This presentation highlights the connectivity problems of LIR's who  
  receive address space out of very new /8's the RIPE NCC receive from  
  the IANA. The problem is that it takes too much time for all operators  
  to update their bogon filters.
 
  Geoff Huston (TELSTRA) pointed out that the address prefixes stated in  
  the presentation are taken from the RIPE whois database and not from  
  the delegated zone files of the RIPE NCC. The address prefixes stored  
  in the RIPE NCC's delegated files are more reliable as (a) handed out  
  officially by the RIPE NCC, (b) are in use and (c) can be routed.
 
  Geoff expressed his opinion regarding the necessity of using the  
  delegated files as authority if the community wants to be serious  
  about using correct bogon information. The Whois Databases should not  
  be relied upon, as they are problematic for all kinds of reasons. He  
  would not advise anyone doing real-live packet filtering to rely on a  
  Whois Database.
 
  Daniel Karrenberg (RIPE NCC Chief Scientist) agreed and said the RIPE  
  NCC will amend this procedure.
 
  The final slide of the presentation called for input from the audience  
  about this pilot. Would people like to see this make into a RIPE  
  document with the intention of becoming a regular RIPE NCC service?
 
  Geoff Huston (TELSTRA) asked for more granularity when producing  
  information on bogons.  Addresses that have been allocated or assigned  
  but are in an "active" /8 make ideal bogons for miscreants.  The RIPE  
  NCC should publish this information.
 
  Ruediger Volk (Deutsche Telecom) was next to say he would like the  
  RIRs to clarify what address space each has given out so far. This  
  would allow an understanding of what address space is in use and what  
  is not.
 
  Ruediger believes only the RIRs and IANA can and should do this.
 
  Andre Koopal (MCI) thinks the RIPE NCC should take the responsibility  
  of clarifying what they have allocated and what shouldn't be in the  
  bogon list.  Additionally, he thinks that IANA should define the list  
  of where the real bogons are, not the RIPE NCC.
 
  Daniel Karrenberg (RIPE NCC Chief Scientist) reminded the audience  
  that the RIPE NCC started this de-bogonising pilot because of the many  
  complaints they received from LIRs. There was pressure for the RIPE  
  NCC to provide some relief, to be seen to do something to tackle the  
  problem. There have been mostly positive reactions to the pilot  
  although at this stage it is more ad hoc relief than an actual  
  solution.
 
  Andre Koopal (MCI) wishes to see the pilot become a permanent RIPE NCC  
  service.
 
  Randy Bush (IIJ) would like an effort made to look at the problems  
  from the front rather than using ad hoc relief. He agrees with Geoff  
  Huston that the underlying data is weak, not well defined and lacks  
  proper signed distribution.
 
  Geoff Huston (TELSTRA) specifies there are approximately 2,000 entries  
  (out of approximately 210,000) whose data are unclear, most of which  
  are /24 networks. It is not clear if those records have been allocated  
  or not. This kind of data needs to be accurate in order to have a  
  trustful bogon filter.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) asked if something is being done to prevent  
  similar problems happening in IPv6?
 
  According to Daniel Karrenberg (RIPE NCC Chief Scientist) and Gert  
  Doering (SpaceNet), these issues with IPv6 have not risen yet. It was  
  not specified as a requirement for this pilot. Gert stated people are  
  filtering far too loosely with IPv6 and the problem is not the  
  prefixes not propagating, but garbage propagating everywhere. There  
  does not appear to be a problem with non-reachability due to bogon  
  filters. He asserts the problems discussed here are not evident in  
  IPv6. IPv6 has other problems.
 
  Gert thinks there may be scientific interest to measure propagation,  
  especially to counter mistakes made in the past with IPv4.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) posed the question to the audience: Would  
  there be interest to give the RIPE NCC a task to go to IANA to try to  
  clean up the data?
 
  Daniel Karrenberg answered that all the RIR's have this task already.
 
  Geoff Huston (TELSTRA) spoke that as a customer of RIR data and as an  
  operator he needs to rely on accurate data. The IANA and the RIR's  
  need to fixed the current inconsistencies. Currently within the RIR  
  communities information is published about address space in a number  
  of different formats; delegated files, Whois, RIPE NCC documents. They  
  are not all drawn from the same underlining database, they cannot be  
  because there is inconsistency, he said.
 
  Geoff believes it is worth the RIR's effort to have an accurate and  
  consistent listing of what address space is in use and what is not, on  
  at least a 24-hour cycle. Then people will know what to expect in  
  their routers. IPv6 or IPv4 makes no difference.
 
  Shane Kerr (RIPE NCC Software Manager) addressed the WG to say the  
  RIPE NCC are aware and have foundation plans to improve consistency of  
  registration data across the RIR's and IANA. However the current plan  
  is to wait until the ERX (Early Registration Transfer Project:   
  http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/erx.html) is finished.  
  This would allow the RIPE NCC to clean up the data it currently holds  
  first before addressing the inconsistency problem.
 
  Nevertheless the RIPE NCC wanted to use this pilot to gauge from this  
  working group about how much effort should be spend on this because it  
  will be expensive in terms of cost and time to pursue it further. It  
  will take time away from answering requests for new IP resources for  
  example and Shane does not have a good feeling yet how much time the  
  community wishes the RIPE NCC spend on addressing this data  
  consistency issue.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) asked Shane if the RIPE NCC is waiting for  
  the ERX to finish, and if anything was being done right now to clean  
  the data?
 
  Shane Kerr (RIPE NCC Software Manager) explained how historically it  
  used to be the case that anyone could register anything in the RIPE  
  Whois Database at any time. There was never an effort to clean up or  
  make the data consistent in the past in a systematic way. Right now,  
  as the ERX proceeds the RIPE NCC are cleaning up the data within each  
  /8 systematically and once the ERX is complete the RIPE NCC will be  
  able to know that at least the data from those /8 blocks is good.  
  Shane confirmed that most of the garbage left resides in the 192/8  
  block. Historically this block is quite a mess.
 
  When the ERX project finishes the RIPE NCC would like to go back and  
  start looking at the data in the oldest blocks, 193/8, 194/8 & 195/8.  
  These are of the vintage 1993 - 1995 era. In order to do this however  
  it will take human beings going through old mail logs and files and so  
  forth.
 
  Geoff Huston (TELSTRA) felt it was worth the effort if the community  
  wants a secure routing system that is robust against determined and  
  professional attempts to abuse it. Filtering will not help. The data  
  must be trusted from the beginning. The people who can clarify what  
  address blocks have been allocated are the RIR's.
 
  Geoff went on to say the price of a secure routing system is  
  ultimately cleaning up the data first so reliable and trusted  
  attestations can be made about address space.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) agrees and sees this task as important as  
  making new delegations. The Bogon issue is important. It already  
  causes a lot of havoc, which amounts to cost to the LIRs. Kurtis  
  suggested it might be cheaper to clean the data up in the long run  
  than to leave it as it is at the moment.
 
  Leo Vegoda (RIPE NCC Registration Services Manager) explained that  
  some old last resort registries had passed their allocations to the  
  RIPE NCC.  However, not all of them had passed the documentation for  
  the assignments they had made.  This means that the RIPE NCC cannot  
  easily validate database entries.  Cleaning things up will take  
  considerable input from the operator community as well as the RIPE  
  NCC.
 
  Daniel Karrenberg (RIPE NCC Chief Scientist) agrees with Leo and  
  although he is RIPE NCC staff he also agrees with Geoff Huston that  
  this is the RIR's core business and time should be spent on this task.
 
  Ruediger Volk (Deutsche Telecom) agrees the data needs to be cleaned  
  and recommended to quickly setup RS set names or something similar  
  without delay.
 
  Kurtis Lindqvist (Chair) asked the audience if they do NOT think the  
  RIPE NCC should spend time and effort to try to clean up the bogus  
  data?
 
  - -Silence from the audience-
 
  As there were no comments, Kurtis said that this is clear consensus.   
  The message (apparently) is that the community wants the RIPE NCC to  
  spend time and effort pursuing the goal to clean up the registration  
  data. He acknowledges it is probably going to cost some money so he  
  suggested to possibly making a standard reporting item on the RIPE NCC  
  to report on the progress of this task and then cost and plans can  
  come from there.
 
  48.3 Chair - Add standard agenda item to report on progress of data  
  quality.
 
  Y. Open Microphone
 
  - -There were no Open Microphone discussions-
 
  Z. AOB