RIPE Working Groups

Minutes from RIPE 44

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RIPE 44 / EIX WG / Grand Ballroom / Wed 29/01/2003

Chairman:       Mike Hughes <mike@linx.net>
                LINX
Scribe:         Dave Knight <dknight@ripe.net>
                RIPE NCC
Administrivia:
  Fearghas can't make it, Mike Hughes chair this time
  - Agenda Bashing
    Change of order to fit everyone in as AMSIX need to leave early
  - Scribe
    David Knight, RIPE NCC
  - Attendee list
    Duly passed out
  - Apologies
    Feaghas MacKay
    Arnold Nipper
  Session is being webcast, use the microphones for questions!
Euro-IX Presentation: Christian Panigl
- Member status:
  24 members
  TOPIX, LIPEX and NIX-CZ have joined since RIPE43
- Website
  http://www.euro-ix.net
  Getting a lot of hits
  Has a DB of connected customers
  Has a members only area
  Peering details
  Switch DB, which switch/os/modules members are running, etc
  Creatign a regulatory issues repository
- Projects
  3 projects ongoing
  Network monitoring, driven primarily by LINX
  Network Security, driven primarily by DECIX
  Member application process, 24 members, 24 ways, trying to harmonise this
- Forum
  Last year the first one was held in Barcelona, decided to do more,
  members will be contacted shortly in regard to one in Mar/Apr
  The next general meeting will be at the forum
- Questions ?
  None
Packet Clearinghouse IP Phone Project: Bill Woodcock
- http://www.pch.net/inoc-dba
  24 members
  TOPIX, LIPEX and NIX-CZ have joined since RIPE43
- Website
  http://www.euro-ix.net
  Getting a lot of hitsephones in NOCs in many ISPs
  Dial using AS numbers, want to complain about a problem at Genuity just
  pick up the phone and dial 1, speak to bill dial 42
  Many large ISPs participating, LINX has all their offices online
  already, many exchanges are getting involved
  Netnod just ordered 60 phones, every member ISP will get one
  It's simple, any SIP device will work, mostly using Cisco 7960s
  Cisco can be persuaded to throw them in free with a large order
  Started with 100 phones which were given out for free, trying to
  get more for those who can't get their own
  - Questions ?
    ? How is it funded
    It's not, it's kind of the open source alternative, soon it will be
    the only phone network in history with service on 7 continents
    SIP is just no that difficult, you can run your own phone company in
    your spare time

IXP Interconnect Case Study: Keith Mitchell, James Rice
  -Keith Mitchell-
  A year ago Keith gave a presentation on connecting exchange points
  A lot of overview coverered there, explains background
  From that the conclusions are that this can be good, but be very careful
  At Xchange point they have done this, with BT UK6X informally
  Have executed formal agreement with LoNAP
  Layer2 interconnect is very much in vogue, especially in the UK
  Seeing a lot of pressure to glue layer2 together, it's so much cheapear
  than doing it with routers
  It saves money, but is it smart ?
  A good idea for cost saving, not such a good idea with multiple
  exchanges on one metro
  Lets not connect everyone together witout routers
  XchangePoint and LoNAP been informally cooperating for a year
  Made a formal agreement about a week ago
  Have identified multiple connections modes, have implemented the first,
  a simple p2p vlan
  In the agreement there is a commitment to entering the modes if it
  works out, taking it a step at a time
  A block VLAN IDs unique to both parties asigned
  Gets scary doing this with multiple parties, only 12bit space
  Using 100 IDs, 40 XchangePoint, 40 LoNAP, 20 reserved
  All p2p, no public peering exchange addresses in use, 2 peers assign
  a /30 for a peering
  They don't do any settltment across the exchange, like a peering
  agreement
  Do people pay ?
  The terms are betwen the customer and operator they are connected to
  Resiliency
  You can't do spanning tree
  Could run different VLANS across the links
  Using manual configuration
  AUP
  Started writing, ended up with a very long list
  Decided to take the simple approach
  Any traffic across the connect must comply with the AUP at either end
  All traffic tagged
  All parties must know the rules at either end
  Service levels
  Layer2 stuff, you can only see the failure end to end, contact your
  operator for resolution
  Keep each other informed about tickets, etc
  Is this a legal agreement ?
  Not really, they have found a way to make it binding
  Termination notice period
  Have limits in place for costs sharing, etc
  Open Issues
  Do you extend your address space across the other exchange?
  -James Rice-
  Cisco use default VLAN 1, it can't be filtered and cant be disabled
  You decided therefore not to use it, your customers connect using it,
  this is not good .. Cisco, do something!
  LoNAP has a collector, ExchangePoint has a reflector!
  Wether or not to have a multilateral peering router is a good idea ?
  Should they participate in each others ?
  So far they have heard no rumblings of losing a customer who no longer
  needs to be at both exchanges
  Both exchanges have fairly different marketing strategies
  -Keith Mitchell-
  Problem with scaling broadcasts
  Switch vendors should provide a better solution for this
  Have been going for about a week, it's going OK, 10 VLANs up in the
  first week
  The agreement is in the public domain, please check first with Keith
  or James first though
  - Questions ?
    -Randy Bush-
    ? Complex layer 2 networks have reliability problems, you seem to be
    trying to reach a compromise for many reasons which are hidden. We
    know STP, etc have bugs, these things fail, you are trying to reach
    a compromise to solve a business need and it would be nice if next
    time you could reveal what is under the covers here, why you
    made some of the decisions, what were you trying to avoid, why you
    chose not to try those things? A real hell lies here and you are
    working hard to avoid it, others are walking into it and it would be
    nice to get explicit about this
    -Keith Mitchell-
    Some of this is covered in the presentation given last time, if we
    let this run for a while there will be more to tell next time
    -?-
    ? Are you running a seprete vlan for ipv6
    -Keith Mitchell-
    At the moment LoNAP doesnt do it
    XchangePoint is putting it on seperate vlans
    Anyone wanting to do dual stack on a router can support them on
    different interfaces
    -Bill Woodcock-
    This is the same methodology that has been used between Seattle IXP
    and the Seattle PAX, it works there
    -Keith Mitchell-
    I know its been done in the US
    -Bill Woodcock-
    Yeah, it works fine
    -Mike Hughes-
    Would you be interested in putting the do's and don'ts
    into BCP, share your gotchas, etc, this is new
    -Keith Mitchell-
    Yes, sure

IPv6 Policy Issues Update: Mike Hughes
  Mike and Netnod will write a document on getting address space for
  independent IXP services nets, so they are independent of a particular
  upstream
  You turn the classic relationship on its head as an IXP, asking customers
  for addresses
  Questions ?
  -Randy Bush-
  Why is that upside down ?
  -Mike Hughes-
  Kurtis asserted it this way, if you want to have the same fight as in the
  IPv6-WG please do it later ;)
  -Kurtis Lindqvist-
  Just a reflection, IXPs in several locations only get 0ne /48,
  not a problem space wise, but this is only one AS num they would rather
  have seperate blocks ..

-Mike Hughes-
RIPE NCC! We need a monitor on the stage for audio!

IPv6 Exchange Point Survey: Alexander Koch
  Been spending some spare time thinking about rolling out v6, has Juniper
  kit, it just works
  1 Cisco working in v6 BGP full mesh, a great surprise on this old box
  As they rolled out v6 in Europe and the US, many exchanges have v6
  assigments but nothing is happening, they support it but to what
  level?
  They see issues with exchanges in europe using eui64 adressing, this
  is not what we want to see, other exhanges running on 6bone space
  other exchanges doing it on a sep vlan
  What he wants to say is some small things about exchanges and how he
  would ask them to do it, make it work and make it work easier
  At many IXPs they use eui64, he has no problem with hex, but decimal is
  so much easier
  Seen that many IXPs put v6 on a seperate switch, you would have to use
  a specific connection, whats the point?
  XchangePoint doing VLANS all the way through, why ?
  Others doing it to stop interference in operational security, yet to
  hear of any problems with this though anywhere in the world!
  Many IXPs already doing this
  Some IXPs just do it the wy he would like everyone to do it, they
  offer ipv6 parallel to v4
  An argument we still hear is that some providers cannot do it, they
  have to do this with a test, these guys need anpther port anyway
  Cisco IOS versions lately are good, far more stable than previuosly
  try it out
  All exchanges consider offering it on the same VLAN!
  Those that need a new port will need it anyway
  More and more people will use the same router for v4 and v6
  Way more people will use v6 at the AMSIX, at DECIX it is getting
  bigger, dont put restrictions on this
  Push v6, put it in the same LAN
  - Questions ?
    -Bernard Tuy-
    ? Next time please have some slides, it is boring listening to
    10 minutes like this, this is interesting for us all, we like to see
    more information
    -Mike Hughes-
    Alexander can write up his thoughts and get them out on the list
    While we are here, of the EURO IX members, who have their details
    up ?
    About half of us then of those who are here
    -Bernard Tuy-
    Is it in the public area ?
    -Mike Hughes-
    Yes
    -Christian Panigl-
    ? Is there a benefit for the IXP in having them in the same VLAN
    -Alexander Koch-
    You can use a smaller router without VLAN trunking, this needs a
    different feature set with more bugs
    MCAST On a seperate VLAN, v6 should be on the same!
    -?-
    That made prove to people afraid of v6 that its not harmful
    -Bernard Tuy-
    It's not a matter of afraid, but about monitoiring, if you want
    to seperate monitoring you should use seperate monitoring
    -Christian Panigl-
    As an IXP operator there is therefore a benefit to seperate VLANS,
    it's a trade off
    We use a different VLAN mainly so we offer diferent AUPS on the
    diferent lans, we allow transit only in v6
    Eventually though the policies will converge

IXP Presentations:
  o AMS-IX      Henk Steenman
    Still growing in ports, members, traffic, etc
    Been suffering many problems which will be discussed at the meeting
    friday
    - Questions ?
    -Bernard Tuy-
    If everyone can say how many memebers they have and how much traffic
    that would be nice. IPv6 too.
    -Arien Vijn-
    21 IP addresses, some have 2 routers connected, 17 AS numbers
  o INEX Dave Wilson
    Incorporated in 96, operational in 97, now 10 members
    Not presented in a while
    Hit a peak 5 min avg of 100meg/s
    Moving premises from Ballycoulin? to the other side of Dublin
    Some people taking advantage of this to upgrade connections
    HEAnet on site but connecting shortly
    Couple of members on STM1, a couple will soon be on GigE
    Investing in a 3508 soon to take new GIG member connects
    Recorded 100% uptime this year
    New pricing structure, copied ripes small/med/large
    Investigating new protocols
    About 1.5 years ago outsourced to a pair of consultants they are
    responsible now
    - Questions ?
      -Mike Hughes-
      ? v6
      -Dave Wilson-
      One of the new investigations
  o INXS Udo Steineger
    Not a rock band ;)
    Most of you know our presentation, this time shortened with just news
    Presentation: http://www.inxs.de/
    History and Overview
    Joining Requirements: AS, LIR, Router at INXS, No Layer2 links! (yet)
    Services / Fees
    Web Server: www.inxs.de, Lists: tech-list, org-list
    MCAST Trial: Regular members only, no fees in test, dedicated VLAN,
                 general rules apply, exchange via PIM-SM, MBGP, MSDP,
    IPv6 Trial: Same as MCAST, using C&W v6 allocation
    Contact: udo@cw.net
    - Questions ?
      -Gert Doering-
       Please use this opportunity to get v6 reverse for your peering
       mesh!
      -Bruce Campbell-
      We can fix that tonight!

  o LINX Chris Fletcher
    ! Delayed due to laptop problems

  o LoNAP James Rice
    LoNAP James Rice
    Pretty before/after pictures of LoNAP racks, nice cabling
    News
    New site at RedBus, more nice pictures
    Private Gig interconnect
    New website with useful information, bandwidth stats, peering
    matrix, etc
    A recent question was the last time a non scheduled LoNAP happened,
    nobody can remember
    First IXP interconnect in Europe
    Until the end of February new members will not have to pay the joinup
    fee, cables run by LoNAP
    80% peering right now
    Looking glass on the website
    8291 routes available at LoNAP
    Most of that comes from MfN
    New customers: Marula, Associated Networks, Aeximous
    Connection policy, dont need a router housed with LoNAP, you can
    have a private circuit into one of the colo facilities
    v6 is on the todo list, none so far, want an indepedent allocation but
    dont currently qualify, getting that fixed this week,
    If you are interested in joining fill in the form on the website

  o LINX Chris Fletcher
    You know who we are, heres an update
    Usual stats, graphs, what we're doing with engineering, new network
    map, news on changes to billing doing some training work
    Traffic
    Last week peaked at 25Gbps
    http://stats.linx.net
    Members
    136
    Engineering
    Upgrade of Extreme switchesd to 10Gig
    Creating a 1010Gbps ring at the cire
    Started 1t6th Jan
    New blades needed 6 reloads did this on spare blades so downtime was
    very small
    Network Map
    2 seperate networks
    Billing
    Quite a big change
    Started usage billing in 2002
    Cost of inter site links depends on usage
    IX monthly income = variable charges
    Dont need to redict growth over coming year
    Fixed monthly inomne make cashflow work easily
    Required income / total usage = pounds per meg, for monthly charges
    Apply this to each port multiplied by the avg megs per second
    This guarantees the required income per month and fairly splits the
    cost among the members
    There is also a flat charge per port
    Higher charges > 75% usage on a port, ie 750Mb on a Gig port
    this discourages members filling a port and adding latency
    100Mbps at 50 Mbps = 752 pouns
    It is hard to say that a port costs a certain amount
    They have plans for a calculator
    Choice of monthly in arrears by direct debit, or quarterly in
    advance
    Advanced billing is based on an estimate
    Correction based on actual usage is applid next quarter
    Training
    Had this around for a while
    Came up with a framework of thisngs internet engineers need to
    know
    Spoke to universities and providers, universitiess interested, taken
    it on as a basis for courses
    LAIT  LINX Accredited Internet Technician
    System and netwrk training with three LEvels
    Contacts
    Training www.s-nt.co.uk
    v6
    Today 3 members peering, on shared vlan, hex as number addressing
    - Questions ?

  o NAMEX IXP Maurizio Goretti
    Located in Rome near the main train station
    First University of Rome
    Est. 1995 as Nautilus, hosted by the university supercomputer centre
    "CASPUR"
    Non profit
    Oct 2001, NaMex
    21 members
    Plain Layer2 backbone, Cabletron Enterassu  SSR 8000 100/1000
    New site, computer centre is moving, IXP is moving too, have 60m2
    5 carriers with fiber
    AS24796
    PI allocation
    BGPv4
    IPv6 Public Network 2001:7f8:10::/48
    BGP+ peering
    Before next RIPE meeting
    New site
    1 Gig peak
    MCAST start
    Join EuroIX
    Permanent staff needs hiring

  o NETNOD Kurtis Lindqvist
    News
    GigE to be installed in Malmo and Goteburg
    Plan to be operational in Q103
    110 k / year
    Singel switch per location
    Will close down DPT-622 as soon as GIgE as operational at all
    locations
    It will likely take a year before everyone moves due to contracts
    DPT-2.5 in Stockholm will stay in
    Fast Ethernet at all GigE platforms
    All customers get an INOC-DBA configured phone, just apply
    It stays NETNOD property
    Planning to hold a customer meeting in end Feb early March
    IPv6 is coming up, finally got a block from RIPE NCC
    MTU
    Made an annoucnement to change MTU on one switch, one switch is
    bridged to old FDDI setup
    Many providers canot do MTU4470
    Some claim it is not needed
    Operations
    Swedish Military outsoured, they were expensive, got someone else cheaper
    will hopefully give better service
    Migrated from mountain cave A to mountain cave C, locations are not
    disclosed
    Did a study with the Swedish government to see what happens when you
    take down an exchange, not a lot
    - Questions ?
    No

  o NIX.CZ
    Prague
    Non profit
    Est 1996
    35 members
    Price: setup 1600 - year 5200
    Offer from redbus for free hosting, stopped by floods
    3rd pop - Sitel Telehouse
    Sucesfully started a week ago, Nad elektranou, Praha 10
    4th pop at Pragonet
    Topology Map
    Using Cisco 2950, 3550, 6006
    Operation
    Intranet for easy member coms
    Reached 1 gig in last few das
    Monitoring of ports
    2003 development
    Joined EuroIX
    Its good for them to comunicate with others
    IPv6 support
    First 3 ISP want to peer pure IPv6 networks
    Getting an aloc from RIPE NCC
    Will use the same vlan for v4 and v6 if it causes probems they will
    change this later
    Plan to improve NOC
    Contact info
    Peering Matrix
    Monitoring, each end user can see switches and see all ports
    - Questions ?
      No

  o XchangePoint Keith Mitchell
    Going for 2 years
    70 customers: 5 major ptts, US OLSP, 20 od Euro ISP, 30 odd UK ISPs
    Choice of transit from 10 major ISPs,  Ethernet circuit providers,
    ADSL Aggregation providers
    Architechture is a little different, DWDM kit to sell private p2p
    to customers
    At several London sites
    Traffic http://traffic.xchangepoint.net
    Steady at 250/300 Mbps ..
    Growth in inter site DWDM
    Developments
    LoNAP Interconnect
    .uk Secondary name server
    All switches upgraded to ExtremeWare 6.2.2
    Build 56 less painful than 2, half of the network running each
    Gotchas going from 6.1.9 to 6.2.2 more info from Extreme on that would
    have been helpful
    Amending AUP to allow controlled connection of 3rd party switched
    Transit Marketplace highly successful,  next event in London on Feb
    27th Feb
    Close to securing funding for additional European locations
    Contacts

AOB:
  -James Rice-
  LoNAP membership 2000 pounds, not 2000 Euros

  -Keith Mitchell-
  XchangePoint has 6 people on v6

  -Mike Hughes-
  It's Paul Thorntons birthday, he's 30!
  Now, to the bar!