RIPE 41 / EIX WG / Grand Ballroom / Wed 16/01/2002
Chairman: Fearghas MacKay
Scribe:David Knight
- Agenda bashing
- Bill Manning / Peering Contacts DB
Card swap parties ..
Noticeable dirth of European participants
Bill will collect contacts to have Europeans added to the DB
- CO Chairs
Fearghas Proposes: Mike Hughes / Christian Panigl
Approved
- BCP update - Nic Lewis
Has been discused last couple of meetings
Large amount of work
Proving diffcult to actually find best current practices
- Progress
There is lots of overlap with EuroIX
A dialog is maintained with EuroIX
Outcome - Nic has been asked to assist making a website with them,
and will help to harmonise application procedures
- Breakdown
Working to harmonise joining procedures
Standardise tech procedures
- Considerations
Concerns about adoption
EuroIX is paid for, results are more quickly forthcoming
Nic thinks EuroIX is a good vehicle for this work it may serve the
community better than the bcp, he sugests transferring the work to
EuroIX
Nic is not directly employed by EuroIX
The work remains visible to the community
- No objections
- Questions ?
None
- IPv6 Allocation Policy for IXPs - Fearghas MacKay
- Fearghas asks if there is any feedback
None
- Tools Wish List - Mike Hughes
Version 2 of the wishlist is up on the WG site
Keith has promised input, as has Christian, more to come from the
meeting with Cisco
Cisco have started a list, poor account mgmt meant this didn't get to
the right parts of cisco , now it has they are interested in this info
People from amsix / milan / exchange poiunt and arnold from decix joined
in meeting with cisco
Cisco realise that they neglected the community of late, due likely to
their poor market share in euro IX's
It was a very good event ...
Cisco alluded to having more events ...
Something good has come from the document already !
- Christian -
There will be a mailing list of exchange operators
- Mike -
A number of IXP operators were invited but couldn't make it
so close to ripe41
Cisco alluded to Amsterdam as next location
It's a good sign that vendors are prepared to work with IXPs
Extreme and Foundry seem to be taking things from the list and
implementing
Mike is the list editor, contact him to ad to the list
- IXP Presentations
- BLNX - First Presentation - Stefan
It is publically founded limited company (gmbh)
The majority of shares held by founders
BLNX is a classical IX
They are neutral
They are independent of local carriers
- Ports
100/1000 IEEE802.3
E3/T3/STM-1 SDH
- Free Stuff
Stratum 1 clock
Ticketised support
- Where
Berlin
4 locations
Friedrichstrasseeast
Gradestrassesouth
Lutzowstrassewest
Alboinstrassewest
They are looking for wireless solutions as connections are expensive
and difficult
- They have
good business plan
need for backup
growing bandwidth
location near new customers / coming east germany and poland
Talking to people in Poland who are interested in coming to Berlin
- Contracts
IPBerlin, Akamai, go.ana
Signed LOI's
Four big ISP / 3 midsize ISP
- The Truth
They want to get rich
It can be done
Berlin is the growing centre as you extend to the east
www.blnx.net
- Questions
4 locations for a startup seems like a lot, sounds like some colo
arrangements are in place, are the sites managed by other parties,
what is the relationship ? Are you neural from the colo ?
- Nobody is here now, no 24/7 support
they will rent space and install own techies
carriers here now: level3, computel
If you are considering wireless .. does this suggest
something wrong with your business model ? Does that
seem reasonable to you ?
- There is some concern, that they are not reliable.
There is a problem in berlin, carriers put in much fibre,
but it is expensive.
If you cannot reliably interconnect 4 locations, should you
really be at 4 locations ? I have not heard of wireless used
in this way before.
- This is a proven technology, microwave works, it is reliable to
STM-1 but higher bandwidth is the limitation ...
- At locations 1/2 must be links lower than stm1m, once we
have money we can get fibre.
As a point of clarification, when you say wireless some people may
assume you mean 802.11b, you mean traditional telco microwave ?
- Yes, and we do this with xtreme / cisco
- FICIX - Jorme Mellin Chair - jome@song.fi
- History
Founded in 1993 by Telecom Finland / Helsinki Telephone co
10 mbps ether switch
registry for .fi ccTLD
1996 Upgraded to ATM
1997 .fi moved to FICORA
1999 Aditional IX founded / Cisco 8540, 155ATM and 622ATM
2001 Association founded / 11 operators signed
- Status
4 members
Carrier independent
155atm and 622atm availableFICIX1 / FICIX2
IPv4 and IPv6 matrix in palce
KONQwuest is service provider of physical maintenance
Non profit association
Elected trustees
- Traffic stats
http://stats1.kpnqwuest.fi/
- Joining
Apply to ficix@ficix.fi
Must be present at both peering points
- 2 member classes
Full no peering agreements needed
Supporting Member / Peering agreements needed
- Details
No colo space nor fibre
Fibre available from several proveders to both locations
Expected port cost ifs 500 Euro after FICIX1 upgrade to gigE
ATM155 avail til q4/02
- Future
IPv6 in place ... peering exists
Thinking about multicast
Possible relocation of ficix1 ...
Could also provide colo space or move to area with plenty colo space
Hoping for somewhere in the capital area
- URL
www.ficix.fi
- Questions
None
- AMSIX - Henk Steenman
- Status
Not much infrastructure change since RIPE40
4 sites: nikhef / sara / telectuy / global switch
Nikhef - Sara quad gE connect, other sites double gE
- Stats
124 members
177 routers
Most ports at nihef (90) / sara (66)
Yesterday for the frst time they exceede 6gig/s
They are growing fast
As a consequence, they as looking to upggrade the connects to the 4
sites
They have a seperate vlan for gprs roaming exchange, currenty 18
ports
Managing private .gprs root server
Have been assigned a /84 for ipv6
AS1200 moved to dual stack, all existing ipv6 peerings will move
to the production router
- Main changes are organisational ...
Operational mgmt was always outsourced, now they have their own noc
they manage the exchange 24/7
AMSIX office is now located at Westeinde 12 in central Amsterdam
which houses the office, noc and euroix
Total staff is now 9
- Questions ?
None
- DECIX - Arnold
- As last time ...
They have been working for a longtime on a new global framework
They have scheduled meetings for mid February
Decix is going now and they need a good legal framework
Membership is stable, some left due to mergers, etc
They hope to hit 100 mark in the middle of this year
- Operational
They must replace their route server
Must have full control over prefixes
Second router server is under development, will be installed for
increased resilience, as well as new features, not just for
filtering but also prefix filtering, they replace the cisco
filter with a new siemens / spacrc box
End last year, 30 Dec they were hit bya mutlicast storm. It took
them 12 hours to isolate and control. It's not yet understood what
happened, they could identify all involved ports were on gsr and gig
ether, there is curently a cisco case open, they hope to learn more,
they will upgrade to latest ios to support mcast suppression, since 6.5
this is possible. This demonstrated the lack of tools to identify
these problems, they already took the initiative and said to euroix
that they need the tools.
- Stats
Traffic is increasing, but not much since last time
Peaking at almost 5 gigs
- Projects
MCAST started mid last year, ten members involved
Trial will continue until mid this year, then enter prod as a
regular service
IPV6 started last October, no participants, the project will
continue until the end of this year
Surprised by the lack of interest
- Questions ?
None
- CIXP - Paolo
- Since last time ...
Much industry consolidation means router size has increased
First non cisco in production during 2001
First gigE ports allocated
Growth in WDM kit used ty telco operators
Number of members is constant
Steady growth in traffic
- Status
They are partnered with telehouse switzerland, expansion site in
downtown geneva, no gigE there yet
They plan to setup vlans for backtoback peerings
More gig capacity in 2002, only price difference is the install
charge
They participate in EuroIX
They cooperate with other euro research projects
Also some interest from commercial in IPv6
They plan to have ipv6 research peerings
New URL http://www.cixp.ch/ - redesign in cooperation with
telehouse is planned
Looking glass is operational, only for members, peering with
AS513
Renewed interest in the mcast testbed, a real service durin 2002
- Questions ?
None
- INXS - Udo
- History and overview
One of the oldest exchanges in Germany
Currently 42 members
New members wating to connect
Open house policy for any carrier
All circuits terminate in a seperate room
Patching done by C&W staff
ISPs may make INXS their POP in Munich
Memebers may buy and sell traffic / may have private peerings so
long as they don't sell upstrweam and INXS are switching fabric
Member must have their own ASN, must be a LIR, must house a router
at INXS, switches or LAN not allowed
No obligation to peer
No route server yet
Looking to participation in RIPE RIS
- Fees
Unchanged during euro change ...
- The exchange
Cisco Catalyst 6509
One ip per customer
10/100/1000 ports
- Website
http://www.inxs.de
Members area
Operators area
Mailing list archives
- MCAST
MCAST trial only regular INXS members
No fees during test phase
Limited to 1/3 of INXS members
Only 10/100 ports
Test prolonged to mid 2002
Dedicated vlan
In operation since oct 2000
- IPv6
Same rules as mcast
Additional rack for ipv6 routers
In operation since sep 2000
5 isps connected
Currently using C&W ipv6 allocation
- Status
Growth in members increasing steadily
Some members lost to mergers
Some new members though
- Contact
Udo
- Announcements
INX-HH in Hamburg is INXS Hamburg
Locations not connected, no plans to do so
Same contract and service will be delivered as in Munich
More details on the web ...
- Questions ?
None
- LINX - Mike Hughes
- Since last time ...
New London Office
Some kit going to a 9th location
10 gig is arriving
Some work done to improve resiliency
Passive private interconnects
Inter provider problem resolution being worked on, Rob suggested
feeding this info to the group
Having problems getting into new ofice
Main place for engineers / meetings / it's easily reachable
No changes to phone numbers
New Redbus location at Sovereign House London
50,00 square foot facility, will handle overflow from the original
redbus facility which is full
Diverse connectivity
Full size switches from
Got first 10gig cards from Foundry, tested at HQ in December
Tested at Foundry UK on Jan 4th
Main core can be upgraded to 10gig throughout
They operate dual vendor core
Currently deploying 8gig CWDM solution as it is available NOW
Xenpac will bring down the price of the optics and ergo the cost
for 10gig cards
Currently kit comes from extreme and foundry
They are considering a connection diversion policy
Everyone which is single homed will be in one lan with everyone else
The idea being better vendor support
The main archtecture of the new split network is two 8/10gig cores
with diverse fibre routes
- New service
Passive Private Interconnect, layer1 managed fibre
This solves a problem with adhoc private interconnects, this
location is londons oldest colo, risers and voids are full of
cables, this helps the members out
As telehouse don't provide this service linx will provide another
private interconnect here too, making use oif existing fibre bundles
in each building, interconnection by fibre supplied by telehouse
linx will pass on the extra rental to the member, advantage being
that as a private fibre the member may run whatever thyt like over
it
- Traffic
Peak traffic this morning is just over 13gig/sec
Has grown steadily since July, Code Red ? ;)
This illustrates why 10gig is needed
Memebership is 125
Some people changeing their models, losing members
Net gain in 2001 though
Good interest in LINX meetings
At last meeting ran a peering sim game
- Tech Challenges
A ethernet switch was connected which shouldnt hhave been there
One switch reacted very badly, caused ripple effects, took 8 hours
for things to settle
This raises questions about how to do these interconnects safely
- Ongoing development
- MCAST
Still a seperate vlan
Can extend over vlan when needed
Chicken and egg scenario
- IPV6
Space for peeroing allocated
Chris will do some experiments
- Questions ?
Interest in pasive private ?
- LINX does this free for thiscurrent billing period, no charge
if you join now
- NDIX - Rudolf van der Berg
-
Based in Enschede - current site - will extend to munster and start
a second site will be done with the de local govt to ensure neutrality
ndix is neutral - startext by the local govt
Location is in telehaus in munster, neutral location
Tech matters resolved
Hardest thing was a line from enschede to munster, now they have
fibre
Up to the politicians to getr rid o the red tape
Operational by the end of the second quarter 2002
Interesing new dev in esnchede is wireless testbed, funded by govt
started by University of Twente, ndi will provde head end on a
seperate vlan parties may connect test kit and connect through
to the internet
Not just about the technology but about the application too,
hospitals are involved in the tests
Versatel is connected, two more telcos this quarter
Rollout of wireless testbed in q1 2001
The IX is running well with no downtime so far
- Questions
Was there a special reason to go to munster ?
- Enschede is 5km from the German border
Germany seemed a good idea
They got in touch with Germans, they were interested, Munster
evolved from this
I know the area, I don't think that munster is attractive ?
- They disagree
Munster already hs 4 telcos, several wireless operators present in
the area, Universities at either end cooperating
Only 20km from dortmund where stuff is happening
Close to the Rhurgebied ..
Why Munster and not Dusseldorf ?
- Cost effective
- NIX.CZ - Josef Chomyn
- Status
Located in Prague
Non profit
Est August 1996
28 members
2 left Dec 2001
2 locations
10/100/1000 ports
Using Cisco Catalysts, 2948/6006/6006/4003
Gig interconnect, Cat 6000's at either end
100 interconnect, using old switches
- Currently preparing
gig for customers
contract for 1st employee - Managing Director
workin on draft - nix.cz concept for the future
- Contact
www.nix.cz
comittee@nix.cz
- TIX
- Status
Not that much news
Got a bigiron switch
3 gig connections
40 fast ether
No ipv6, have not requested addresses
Run a .ch secondary
- Questions ?
None
- VIX - Christian Panigl
- Status
50 people at workshop last year
Found out som interest in remote connects to the VIX, they are
looking at new technologies
Looking at connect agreements to allow remote router connects
- Questions
None
- Exchange Point - Keith Mitchell
- Brief update
Network up for 8 months
Free trial over
17 customers, making money now
Hitting 100meg level
Met SLA targets
- Sites
London: Redbus / Telehouse East
- Traffic
peak 93.53 MB/s
avg ~60 MB/s
Restatemnt of neutrality principles
Lists types of interconnect
Finding place in the market for virtual private interconnect, could
be used to make a virtual private exchange group
Lists service offerings
Describes VLAN based services, see demand for p2p vpi
Value add, cisco route collector
- MCAST
We won't get thisto work properly until the vendors get together on
this
Community needs to bang vendor heads
Extreme is not getting it's act togeter
Keith desn't care about the differeing technologies, just wants
something that works
- New services
MetroXP Multipeer - optional mip router
4 participants
- IPv6
Auto adress allocations to all customers
Would like to get a collector router running
Hosting sec ns for .uk
- Customer private web pages
http://customer.xchangepoint.net
Dynamic customer view
Who offers transit
Customers happy tpo shre data with other customers not necesarily
with everyone
They will host a seminar in London on Feb 7th
- Questions ?
None
- Ethernet over Anything - Peter - Ebone -
- 2 questions for IXPs ...
- You can set up p2p ethernet from anywhere to anywhere ...
For IX's you could onnect form anywere in the world, you don't
need the router on the IX itself, Christian mentioned he will alllow
remote connections in future
- Not necessarily over anything
Virtual routers, we will see it on IXs in future, including non ether
based IXs, this ould arrive soon, whats the comments ?
- Fearghas - Maybe people should think about it and comment on the
list?
As long as this doesn't harm the IX then why not
- It coul harm the IX in that with the lack of kit necesary it
might harm IX kit sales, an IX doesnt need to be a physical
placem it could be virtual, anywhere, conecing anything
Whats the opinion ?
- The possible harm was meant technically, not business models
- Mike - A couple of comments from the Cisco day
Link Layer is not transmitted to the IX switch
What we need is OAM type thing to pass through to allow
dropping at both ends if there is a failure in the middle
LINX is responsible for cable fault etc, dealing with this
virtually really needs link failure to work, chasing ghosts
could consume a lot of man hours
Managing people perception of this, remote routers cause
unexpected latency they don't see that there is a
extranational hop
- Bill Maning - In other disciplines, how to reduce the apparent latency ?
Others have done interesting things, but the only
way involves trying to lie, these solutions appear
attractive, but they always seem to fail
Moving ether frames, what happens when you pass 10gigs
this will cause the saem ATM sucks opinions ...
- EuroIX - John
- Status
Non profit
Established Jun 2001
Provide a portal for euro ixps
20 ixp members
725 listed isps ovwer the 20 ixps
Strugled with existing policies
Approach is join now and seek a fee waiver for new ixps
Operational defined as at least 3 peers and a published customer list
The web site is up andis a sucess so far, fair amount of content,
recording a lot of hits ... picked up a lot since the praha meeting
memebers linking to it directly from their own stes ... 32000 hits
since March ... most coming from Euro countries ... a significant
number from US though
More info soon to be added to the IXP section
Conditional approval given to 3 projects
ISP quality of service metrics
IXP monitoring systems
IXP membership application procedure
Not actually begun this yet
Metrics could be contraversial, going to explore though
Monitoring systems would be good
Applications stuff make it easy for new members to join
- Questions ?
None
- Peering Point Interconnection - Keith Mitchell - eXchange Point
- Some ideas for interconnection between ethernet MANs
Not necesarrily a solution for virtual router problems ...
The following is a summary of keiths thoughts
In Europe most IPP based on swithed ethernet, this technology can
be used for other things, colos do it for customer interconnects,
not necessarily peers
We have competing ISPs connecting, do we want competing IXPs
connecting?
When is it a good idea to connect these things ?
Traditional wisdom says it's always a stupid idea
We have a lot of colos in europe
For many IPPs its not an option to go everywere, it's convenient
to use this to provide coverage
Why not interconnect ?
It's uncommon in Europe
Only one example in Europe
It's common in US, at MAE east a distributed bunch of colos and
IXPs connect their switches together
Layer2 switch technlogy is not a good thing to do interdomain
routing with.
You only have spanning tree - it sucks
Shared media accidents are very easy and very troublesome
It's very difficult to operate a multi admin single network
What kind of applications would you want this for ?
Alow customers of on IXP peer with those of another
Allow them to buy/sell transit
You could also bridge the exchanges with a router, this is
normally an ISPs job, as an IXP you can avoid conflict of
interest with a multi lateral peering router
People have spoken about:
You have a multi view route server, you could provide transit
between the two
There are lots of posibilities ... some scarier than others
If you interconnect to layer2 switched nets, network hygeine,
max, filters minimum scary things .. block all broadcast traffic
bar arp.
Keith would like switch vendors to allow filtering arp packets
based on ip address
Best tool is vlans ... provides most protection needed
All untagged traffic blocked - dont leak, only explicitly added
to vlan people should be able to talk across the interconnect
STP causes a lot of problems, no filtering or policy constraints,
all changes or problems proagate
Using the interconnect - no stp - maybe use trunking instead
New ieee stp standards 802.1s and 802.1w may help, cisco talkng
about tag stacking, vlans within vlans
IP addressing is not such a hard issue, you dont want to route
between them, if you extend the vlan across the connection you may
as well take your adress range with it, sub interfaces with the
remote address range could work here
It's hard for IXPs to stop customers plugging their kit in
We have a model in the shape of 'peering'
Don't allow arbitrary connections, sit down and hash out a
bilateral agreement ... we need new language here or we get
confused very quickly
Working now with Packet Exchange ... and other parties
White Paper available soon
Keith thinks there is mileage in this ... as a community we should
think about this ...
- Questions ?
- About a route server between nets, it's been done ... the problem
is that the router must forward at line rate at gigE while route
serving or have two routers ... one forwarding ... one serving,
it's complex and expensive ... you could also not have a route
server ... let people statically configure their connections,
ebgp multi-hop
They also tried running bidirectional static map across this router
This is a gross hack .. but it works
- No money is changing hands ... who is paying for the connection ?
This is like a peering agreement ... if you work on the basis of
MetroEther with abundant bandwidth ... the costs are done on a
non settlement basis ...
- Someone has to pay for the fibre ?
Nobody is talking about extranational connects .. they are talking
Metro area at most .. it's easy to justify interconnect between two
admins rather than two sites under one admin
- MAE Services and facilites - Thomas Bechly - WorldCom
List service goals ...
Have around 50 customers in Europe
Using CATS AND GIGE
In the US runnign atm service -- esablished pvcs for direct peering
guaranteed and best effort service ... wth policing
MAE East / West both distrbuted 4 sites / 2 sites
Benefits allow to keep up to capacity
Lists service level benefts ... rules
New Service ... Customer connects Frame encap technology
best pvcs between customers .. moving up the food chain with this
service ... new site opening in new york and chicago
In their model they use atm ... which has issues ... a frame
interface fits the model and provides a clena handoff with savings in
efficiency .. also keeps the exhange platform away from routing
issues ... etc
New service at MAE east this year
More info at www.mae.net ...
- Questions ?
None
- AOB
We will try to have a session with Michael Beringer delivering
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